suspicious diet advice from new vet…

[AnnieandDavid]

my 3 years old holland lop David has had a problem with cecotropes for quite a while now, he doesn’t always eat them right away and he likes to lay on them and it gets messy on his bum . We clean him whenever necessary with gentle rabbit shampoo but he really hates it when we do.

I brought him to the vet to see if his diet was causing this in some way. This is what i have been feeding him since he has been an adult:

-1/2 cup kibble every morning

-unlimited timothy hay at all times.

-unlimited water at all times

-1 full bowl green lettuce at night (usually romaine or leafy green which he shares with his girlfriend Annie)

the vet said in a very condescending way never to give him anything except timothy hay. no pellets no veggies.

This didn’t seem right to me so i am asking you all for a second opinion.

what kind of diet should i feed the bbs? And does this have any effect on David’s cecotropes / poopy bum habits?

Thank you,

1st post on the forum,

-Nick

[Wick & Fable]

Is your vet an experienced rabbit vet? At first read, I don’t agree with the vet’s advice. Look around your area for another vet, because even if for some unknown miraculous, unlikely reason this was some sort of kind of sound advice, having a condescending vet is just not something you want, especially if your rabbit ends up needing professional help.

To my knowledge, overproduction of cecotropes and/or not eating cecotropes can stem from having too rich of a diet, where the extra nutrients aren’t needed, or healthwise, something is interrupting your rabbit from eating them. This can happen from over-feeding veggies and pellets, but cutting them out all together is not right— there is like, no nutrients in hay. While hay is vital for keeping the GI track healthy, it does not provide the required nutrients that pellets and vegetables do.

Find another vet.

How are his other poos in terms of size, shape, and frequency?

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Sarita]

Did the vet check his teeth? This could be an indication of dental problems and not necessarily diet.

[Mikey]

When my Badger has cecal problems like you mentioned, its often because I overdid his pellets. Ive read that lack of variety in veggies/greens can also cause cecal problems; maybe his tummy doesnt like the lettuce every day?

I also recommend talking to a second rabbit vet for another opinion.

[AnnieandDavid]

thanks for the response!

His other poops are fairly consistent – relatively medium size, round, usually dry, although somewhat dark in colour. His poops are indistinguishable from Annie’s when they use the same litter box, probably because they have the same diet… although he is the only one with the cecotrope trouble, Annie eats hers as they come and never makes a mess of them or leaves them around.

[Wick & Fable]

Sarita raises a good point. It’s sometimes difficult to look outside the obvious reasons and think of alternative, round about causes. Dental problems can be manifest a very diverse range of symptoms. Any dental procedures in your rabbit’s past?

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[AnnieandDavid]

thanks for the advice everyone!

-every time hes been to a vet his teeth check out just fine!

-Maybe he is pigging out too much on the kibble, even though i measure and limit it every day, I think he often eats some of Annie’s breakfast when i’m not watching.

-also that is an interesting point about the variety. I almost exclusively give them lettuce as their veg. Perhaps i should change this up every day? i stick to lettuce because i realized that some other green veggies give him bad gas, and i’d have to massage his belly till he felt better. (i could hear the gas rumbling quite loudly).

[joea64]

I’d try transitioning from just lettuce to spring mix, which contains a wider variety of greens. I’m feeding spring mix to my newly adopted buns Panda and Fernando. While they’ve only been living with me since yesterday, I’ve already fairly well planned out their daily diet. They get unlimited mixed hays (timothy, orchard and other grass hays) refreshed in the morning and evening, accompanied by a fresh large bowlful of water (the dish can hold up to 4 cups; my reading indicates that one rabbit needs at least 1 cup of water per day, and much of that can be obtained from their greens), also refreshed twice daily. In the morning they get a small bowlful of Oxbow timothy pellets, about 1/4 cup for the both of them. It seems to suit the two buns well so far; they’re in their litterbox right now noshing on the hay piled there.

[tobyluv]

Does David share the 1/2 cup of kibble (pellets) with Annie, or are they just for him? A Holland lop is a small rabbit, around 4 pounds, and a rabbit that size should only get 1/8 cup or so of pellets each day. Too many pellets can definitely cause poopy butt. If he gets all of the 1/2 cup, that would be too much. Even 1/4 cup would be more than most recommend, or it would be the upper limit of what he should get.

To say that a rabbit should only have timothy hay does not sound right to me, and goes against anything I’ve ever read about rabbit diet. Timothy hay is great, but adult rabbits can have other grass hay (meadow, orchard, oat, etc.) and they get vitamins and minerals from greens, as well as pellets. I think that cutting his pellet quantity down will help a lot with the excess cecotropes and messy bottom, but it would be a good idea to have his teeth checked as Sarita suggested.

[Q8bunny]

Please don’t abandon your vet just yet. You got good advice, just lacking in details.

What your rabbit is suffering from is a condition called ISC (intermittent soft cecotropes). If David has given no other signs of poor health, this condition is most often caused by too-rich a diet – generally sugars or starches in pellets and treats. It’s essentially an irritation of his cecum and imbalance of the flora in it.

The best way to correct this imbalance is: you guessed it! Water and hay only for at least a month.

By the end of the fourth week, you will undoubtedly notice David’s poos being considerably drier and lighter in colour, and it’s unlikely you’ll see any more uneaten cecals or signs of poopy butt (by the way, please don’t use ANY kind of detergent on bunny butt; bun skin is much too fragile and prone to dryness – warm water will suffice for cleaning and stained fur will correct itself over time).

Once the month is up, reintroduce (ever so slowly and one kind by one kind) fresh greens to the MINIMUM recommended amount for David’s weight. If he tolerates greens well (no poopy butt for at least a week), reintroduce pellets a few at a time, again, to the MINIMUM recommended amount for David’s weight. 1/2 cup may simply be too rich for his blood, so to speak.

Throughout all this, NO treats of any kind – especially no sugar (even fruit or carrots) and no starches (like a Cheerio on the kitchen floor).

You should see a vast improvement, but this does require commitment on your part (ie, resisting the begging bunny face)

[Q8bunny]

PS If he and Annie eat together, you may want to closely supervise meal times to make sure he’s not helping her eat her portion too – separate dishes or a temporary barrier at meal times often work, as does splitting all daily food rations over at least two meals.

[AnnieandDavid]

thank you all so much.

I do know that he helps annie finish her portion of kibble, i didnt think it was a problem but now I’ll know to prevent that!

I’ve already taken some advice from here and found a different brand of timothy and ive mixed it with orchard hay… they both seem to love it so far.

I’ve read all of your posts and they’ve been very helpful, thanks again to all, i will keep him on the mixed varieties of hay for now and try to reintroduce him to fresh greens in about a month.

I’ll be sure to follow up if there are any more problems.

Thanks again,
-Nick (and David)

[AnnieandDavid]

sorry, double post.

[sarahthegemini]

I think your vet gave sound advice. When a bun has tummy issues, a hay only diet is the best option at least temporarily. My Peanut and Buttercup have been on hay only after a few stasis episodes (Buttercup). They’re now back on pellets but not veggies yet. That’s the next step.

When you do introduce veggies again, I do advise that you provide more than just one type (slowly obviously) because rabbits need a variety of leafy greens.

There are quite a few nutrients in hay anyway

[Bianca]

Cutting back down to hay and water only won’t hurt temporarily and will give his gut time to settle.

I’ve been having similar trouble with Greebo. I don’t feed pellets anyway, but I’ve discovered it’s either carrot and/or spinach that seems to really set him off even in small quantities. I think it is the carrot.

[Author]

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