Surgery Questions :(

[Bunnisox]

I have my 5 year old Netherland Dwarf bun going in to be spayed early next week, and I am full of worry. They found a growth/mass on her uterus and they are going to remove it along with the spay itself. I have questions and some concerns that I’m not quite sure my vet will be able to answer with much confidence. She is not as rabbit savvy as some of the wonderful rabbit people on this forum — and while I’m definitely still going to ask her these things, I would love to get some advice, and information from previous experience from you guys, as well.

One of my main concerns is that my rabbit has been prone to a bit of GI stasis in the past, and I am scared it will be an influencing factor in her recovery. I’m doing my absolute best to prepare for that scenario, and any others that may arise post-op. I’ve listed the questions, below:

1. I’ve read that dandelion leaf, or chicory leaf is a good appetite stimulant. Can anyone confirm this, or has had experience using it as such? My grocer has special ordered some for me (Green, not Red?) and I’m picking up some this weekend. Any other suggestions for increasing her appetite to make sure she’s eating (besides mint – she absolutely hates it)?
I have a digestive supplement that has vitamin B in it and also helps with GI movement – but it’s also a papaya tablet (for shedding issues). Anyone see any problems with using the supplement?

2. Do you think it’s worth introducing sugar to the GI, provided that she’s eating SOMETHING? In other words, after I get her home, if the only thing she’s willing to eat is, say, banana – do I keep feeding her banana? Of course I’ll try many other things, often, but if she is refusing to eat anything else — is the fact that there is food/content going through her stomach more important than what it is, so to speak? How long would I continue to feed her the fruit, until it becomes too much sugar and I take it away?

3. I have purchased something called “Protexin Pro Fibre” per the advice of someone from one of my other rabbit groups, to help with both the flora in the GI and with her fiber intake. My vet will be also providing Bene-Bac, as bunny will be on anti-biotics (Baytril). Will using these 2 probiotics in conjunction with each other cause any issues, that anyone is aware of..?

4. Metacam side effects. My other rabbit (her sister) had a bad reaction to Metacam, and it seemed to make her feel worse both times I’d given it to her. I am slightly concerned for the same reaction in this bun. I was looking to find some ranitidine to help combat this if it happens, but I haven’t been able to find it in a lower mg/ml dose. Because she is such a small bun (3lbs), the vet said she’ll need 2.5 mg doses of ranitidine. The only bottle I’m able to find is 150mg/ml, and that is too high. Does anyone know where I could find a lower mg/ml of this compound?

5. Buns that are spayed later in life (she is about 5) – is there anything specific I should be worried about?

6. Any tips or advice on keeping her as calm and stress-free as possible for our trip to and from the vet? She had a very very bad experience @ the vet last week that clearly caused her a LOT of stress, and has just (as of yesterday) started to have normal poops again after the visit. She is still spooked/scared of noises around the house – which she was not before that visit. They were very loud and there were doors slamming, and dogs barking constantly and kids screaming – it was a new vet for us, and I didn’t like the way he handled her, either – he was very rough and kept turning her upside down over and over and over. I’ll never take her back there again. I’m scared now, when I go to load her in the carrier this time, she’s going to have so much stress from what happened last time. Any advice for this?   I’ve tried giving her chamomile flowers, and even steeping them in some water to give her the liquid – she wants nothing to do with chamomile.

7. I have critical care on hand, in case it goes downhill. How long should I give her to eat on her own before I start force-feeding? 12 hours? More?

8. Concerning exercise and movement: I’m taking out the 2nd level of her condo to help reduce chances of the wound re-opening by her jumping. How confined should she be, though, during her recovery? She has a bunny condo that’s about 4ft x 2.5ft, with a “front yard” area in front of it that’s about 4ftx4ft. Should I confine her to the condo only; and for how long? I know typical recovery process takes about 10 days, from everything I’ve read. Should I keep her in her condo and/or front yard during this whole time? Or would it be safe to let her start running around the house again (without the other bun) after a few days?

9. Are gut motility drugs something I should ask for up front after the surgery? I don’t see them included on my cost estimate. I am not sure if they are usually given after an operation as a precaution.

10. Should I, and if so, how should I, be checking for infection the following days after the surgery? I know it’ll be on her belly, and that is an area that I will not easily have visible access to.

11. Lastly, I am concerned about her re-opening the wound by messing with it, licking/biting at it. She is quite the meticulous groomer and I have a strong feeling she is going to try to go to town on those stitches/closure. I wouldn’t feel comfortable putting a cone on her. I purchased some socks and am currently stretching them out to they’ll fit around her waist/upper arms comfortably. I will ensure they are not too tight. I will take it off her when I am home/awake to supervise, so the incision can breathe/heal. Has anyone had experience putting “clothes” on their rabbits? She won’t like it, and I’m worried that she won’t like it to the point of going nuts and trying to rip it off. Any advice if the “bunny sweater” idea doesn’t pan out like I hope it to? Any other ideas for keeping her from getting to her wound while I’m @ work or sleeping?

I know it’s a lot of questions, feel free to answer any or all of them, if you have any experience, knowledge, opinions, or other input about any of it. I am going to do my very best to ensure she will come out of this, and I want to be as prepared as possible should any complications or issues come up.

Thank you so much for helping me and my sweet bun.

[Cookie and Me]

I don’t have much experience but I will try to answer your questions as best as I can. 

2.) I think that should be fine, but definitely make sure that you don’t go overboard with the sugar. 

8.) Keep her in the condo with no additional excercise, for at least 10 days, especially considering her situation

10.) You can try holding up a treat and seeing if she will stand up for it, while she is, take a picture of the site

As I understand it, you mentioned your vet is not very rabbit savvy. I would not take the risk of this surgery with a vet who isn’t rabbit savvy. 

[Bam]

Posted By Bunnisox on 4/26/2018 1:44 PM 

One of my main concerns is that my rabbit has been prone to a bit of GI stasis in the past, and I am scared it will be an influencing factor in her recovery. I’m doing my absolute best to prepare for that scenario, and any others that may arise post-op. I’ve listed the questions, below:

1. I’ve read that dandelion leaf, or chicory leaf is a good appetite stimulant. Can anyone confirm this, or has had experience using it as such? My grocer has special ordered some for me (Green, not Red?) and I’m picking up some this weekend. Any other suggestions for increasing her appetite to make sure she’s eating (besides mint – she absolutely hates it)?
I have a digestive supplement that has vitamin B in it and also helps with GI movement – but it’s also a papaya tablet (for shedding issues). Anyone see any problems with using the supplement?

Answer: The supplement is fine. Dandelion and chicory are great for buns. Be prepared for red pee though, because of the content of beta carotene. It’s harmless, but can look scary.

2. Do you think it’s worth introducing sugar to the GI, provided that she’s eating SOMETHING? In other words, after I get her home, if the only thing she’s willing to eat is, say, banana – do I keep feeding her banana? Of course I’ll try many other things, often, but if she is refusing to eat anything else — is the fact that there is food/content going through her stomach more important than what it is, so to speak? How long would I continue to feed her the fruit, until it becomes too much sugar and I take it away?

Answer. After you get her home you can give her anything she wants to eat. What she eats is of far less importance. Your aim should be to get her to eat something, because that keeps the gut going. A bit of sugar can also help perk a bun up (she won’t be very perky post op) because sugar gets into the bloodstream fast. That in turn can help her feel well enough to eat other food. You can feed the fruit until she’s eating other food by herself. 

3. I have purchased something called “Protexin Pro Fibre” per the advice of someone from one of my other rabbit groups, to help with both the flora in the GI and with her fiber intake. My vet will be also providing Bene-Bac, as bunny will be on anti-biotics (Baytril). Will using these 2 probiotics in conjunction with each other cause any issues, that anyone is aware of..?

Answer: Different probiotics can be combined because they sometimes have beneficial effects when they work together. You can’t overdose on probiotics because what isn’t used gets pooped out. I have Protexin Pro Fibre rabbit for my bun + another probiotic by the same company. I give him the Pro Fibre every day (tiny amount) and add the other probiotic when we go for car rides (vet visits etc) or when he gets sticky poop. You can start her on the probiotics as soon as possible before the surgery so her tummy is in good working order when she’s having the op.

4. Metacam side effects. My other rabbit (her sister) had a bad reaction to Metacam, and it seemed to make her feel worse both times I’d given it to her. I am slightly concerned for the same reaction in this bun. I was looking to find some ranitidine to help combat this if it happens, but I haven’t been able to find it in a lower mg/ml dose. Because she is such a small bun (3lbs), the vet said she’ll need 2.5 mg doses of ranitidine. The only bottle I’m able to find is 150mg/ml, and that is too high. Does anyone know where I could find a lower mg/ml of this compound?

Answer: You can mix a higher strenght ranitidine with water (dilute it). I had to do that for my bun on my vets orders. I used 150 mg pills. I’ll go check my notes for exactly how I did the dilution and dosage. You’ll need one 10 ml syringe and one 1 ml syringe to do the measuring properly. 

5. Buns that are spayed later in life (she is about 5) – is there anything specific I should be worried about?

Answer: It might be harder for her to cope with anasthetics than it is for a younger rabbit. So she might need extra attention post surgery. A hot waterbottle/ hand warmers to keep her warm (hypothermia is common with rabbits post op and it’s very dangerous), feeding syringes in case you need to syringe feed her the first 24-48 hours. 

6. Any tips or advice on keeping her as calm and stress-free as possible for our trip to and from the vet? She had a very very bad experience @ the vet last week that clearly caused her a LOT of stress, and has just (as of yesterday) started to have normal poops again after the visit. She is still spooked/scared of noises around the house – which she was not before that visit. They were very loud and there were doors slamming, and dogs barking constantly and kids screaming – it was a new vet for us, and I didn’t like the way he handled her, either – he was very rough and kept turning her upside down over and over and over. I’ll never take her back there again. I’m scared now, when I go to load her in the carrier this time, she’s going to have so much stress from what happened last time. Any advice for this?   I’ve tried giving her chamomile flowers, and even steeping them in some water to give her the liquid – she wants nothing to do with chamomile.

Answer: The best thing is probiotics. When a bunny gets stressed, the tummy reacts. It’s also good to have baby gas drops (simethicone) at home. It helps with gas, and gas often follows secondary to tummy upset. Infacol is a good brand. 

7. I have critical care on hand, in case it goes downhill. How long should I give her to eat on her own before I start force-feeding? 12 hours? More?

Answer: You should not go to bed on the evening of her coming home before she has eaten something. If she hasn’t eaten anything on her own by bedtime, you should syringe feed her. It’s important for body temperature and the workings of the GI tract. 

8. Concerning exercise and movement: I’m taking out the 2nd level of her condo to help reduce chances of the wound re-opening by her jumping. How confined should she be, though, during her recovery? She has a bunny condo that’s about 4ft x 2.5ft, with a “front yard” area in front of it that’s about 4ftx4ft. Should I confine her to the condo only; and for how long? I know typical recovery process takes about 10 days, from everything I’ve read. Should I keep her in her condo and/or front yard during this whole time? Or would it be safe to let her start running around the house again (without the other bun) after a few days?

Answer: She should be confined to her condo (ground floor) for 5-7 days. If she seems to recover well she can then have a bit of playtime, but no wild running around. The wound takes 14 days to heal internally if there are no complications. 

9. Are gut motility drugs something I should ask for up front after the surgery? I don’t see them included on my cost estimate. I am not sure if they are usually given after an operation as a precaution.

Answer: Ranitidine works as a gut motility drug in rabbits. (Plus it protects the stomach from Metacam). I don’t think most vets give gut motility drugs routinely after a spay, but if the bun doesn’t start eating and pooping after the spay, they are often prescribed. 

10. Should I, and if so, how should I, be checking for infection the following days after the surgery? I know it’ll be on her belly, and that is an area that I will not easily have visible access to.

Answer: You’ll just have to do you best to catch a glimpse of the tummy. She will be shaved around the incision and that will make it easier to see. If she will periscope for a treat you can get a peek. Another method is to place the bun on a mirror and try to get a peek. 

11. Lastly, I am concerned about her re-opening the wound by messing with it, licking/biting at it. She is quite the meticulous groomer and I have a strong feeling she is going to try to go to town on those stitches/closure. I wouldn’t feel comfortable putting a cone on her. I purchased some socks and am currently stretching them out to they’ll fit around her waist/upper arms comfortably. I will ensure they are not too tight. I will take it off her when I am home/awake to supervise, so the incision can breathe/heal. Has anyone had experience putting “clothes” on their rabbits? She won’t like it, and I’m worried that she won’t like it to the point of going nuts and trying to rip it off. Any advice if the “bunny sweater” idea doesn’t pan out like I hope it to? Any other ideas for keeping her from getting to her wound while I’m @ work or sleeping?

Answer. Some vets give the bunny a bandage all around the middle. A rabbit can really dislike a cone, but some buns just has to wear one. It should come off at least once per day so the bun can groom herself and eat her cecals. Pain relief is important to prevent the bun from trying to lick and bite the wound. You can make a “cone” from a cardboard dessert-plate. You have to be inventive and improvise. 

I know it’s a lot of questions, feel free to answer any or all of them, if you have any experience, knowledge, opinions, or other input about any of it. I am going to do my very best to ensure she will come out of this, and I want to be as prepared as possible should any complications or issues come up.

Thank you so much for helping me and my sweet bun.

Answer: Oh my, she’s incredibly cute!!!!

[Bam]

I had a look at my notes about ranitidine. My bunny needed 5 mg ranitidine so he’s double the size of your bun. I pulverized one 150 mg pill, mixed with 10 ml water and gave 0.3 ml of the mix. For your needs the calculation would be a little different. I did the calculation for you, but you can re-calculate it yourself. I chose the amount of water so it’d be easy to measure up 2,5 mg.

1.Pulverize one 150 mg pill between two spoons and put the powder in a small glass (or plastic) jar that has a lid.

2. Add 30 ml water, put the lid on and shake/swirl the jar until the powdered pill is dissolved. (If you don’t have a jar with a lid you can use a normal drinking glass and stir out the powdered pill with a spoon). Depending on brand of ranitidine the liquid will be clear or yellow. You now have a solution containing 5 mg ranitidine per ml. (150mg ranitidine/30 ml water = 5 mg/ml).

3. Pull up 0.5 ml of the solution you have made into the one ml syringe. The powdered pill will precipitate out quickly, so you have to pull up the 0.5 ml dose very soon after shaking/stirring the solution. (0.5 ml of a 5 mg/ml solution will yield 2.5 mg of ranitidine)

4. Feed the contents of the syringe to the bun.

The rest of the solution will keep a day or two, but after that you should make a fresh batch.

[Bunnisox]

Thank you both for your replies. The idea of getting her to stand on her back legs for a treat is genius.

Thanks for your concern Cookie and Me, about my vet. She has done a lot of spays on rabbits, and she is an exotic vet, so I trust she is in good hands for the operation. My only concern is that she’s not a rabbit specialist – she has a very broad spectrum of animals she supports, and she doesn’t know a lot of the questions that I bring to her, because they are pretty intricate. I trust she knows what she’s doing, though. For example, when I asked for any side effects from the Metacam, she said there were none. Then when I went back to her with the information Bam had provided about the ranitidine, I couldn’t remember the name of the drug, and told her my rabbit had a bad experience with the Metacam and someone had suggested to use another OTC drug to help her tummy handle it better; while she wasn’t able to say “Oh I knew that” or “Oh it’s ranitidine” – she did say “Oh it was probably some form of antacid to help coat the lining” etc. So while she’s not super rabbit savvy – I believe her to be a good vet, and know what she’s talking about.

Bam — I appreciate so much what you’ve done here for me – both in answering all my questions, and writing up the formula. You are amazing.

[Bam]

Thank you  Many, many (((((safe spay))))) vibes for your sweet little bunny!

[Cookie and Me]

Okay, that’s fine, I was just a little unsure

Hope your little bun has a speedy recovery!

[Nutmeg]

My girl will be being spayed in a few months and I know my vet said that I would have to keep her confined with limited mobility for 10 days minimum – As I dont’ think I can let her out of limited play time after because I don’t trust her to not start racing around her play area lol.

And I was thinking of putting an altered new born onsie on her after if she looks like she’s going to play with the area.

My vet said that they put them into a incubation chamber right after to keep them warm and then will keep them until they see them eating again on their own – even if that is over night.
They also have a recovery area that is a lot more quite than out in the normal area so the dogs and cats making sounds will be more limited – as my girl freaked when we took her to the vet for the first time for their first ever check up. Especially on the car ride in. So I was worried about her being stressed while trying to recover there.

I can’t help with the rest of your questions, but I’m so glad you asked them as I learned some new things too.
*** I did not know about giving bunny’s probiotics!!!

Sending good luck vibes to you and your bunny!!!

[Bunnisox]

Update: So my vet that was supposed to perform the surgery today called me yesterday to inform me that they can’t do it. The doctor said she “Didn’t feel comfortable” doing the surgery because of the mass. I am so beyond livid right now. I made the appointment almost 2 weeks ago, and now I have to wait another week to get in with another vet to do the operation. That’s 3 weeks that the cancer has had the chance to spread and grow, and I want to punch a hole in the damn wall right now. I spent the last week spending LITERALLY ALL my money on buying hot water bottles/heating pads, food to help her recover, medicines and herbs, spent all my time making/sewing little sweaters for her to wear; not to mention all of the emotional and mental stress I’ve had to cope with – just for the vet to tell me THE DAY BEFORE THE SURGERY that they can’t do it. SMH
Apparently it was a “misunderstanding” when I made the appointment. When I made the appointment, I told the receptionist that the previous doctor had found a tumor/mass growing on her uterus and I wanted to schedule a surgery to have it removed since I think it’s cancerous. Apparently the vet took this information as “there was an external mass” that needed to be removed. I don’t quite frankly understand how anyone with even a little bit of competence could think that a “tumor growing on her uterus” could in any way/way/shape or form mean an external mass. So when they called me to confirm my appointment yesterday they went over a list of all of the costs, and when they said “external mass removal” – I said “Hold on, this is an internal mass on her uterus…” they placed me on hold for 20 minutes, then proceeded to come back saying they can’t do the operation.
I have to take her into another vet tomorrow for ANOTHER examination (yay more money gone that I don’t have – and yay more stress on my rabbit that she doesn’t need!) – and he’s going to try to fit her in for the surgery early next week (his earliest appointment available). I am so exhausted. I’m so frustrated. I’m soooo angry that my girl hasn’t gotten the treatment that she absolutely deserves and needs.
I will keep you all updated on the process after the vet visit tomorrow.

[Bam]

How extremely odd and inconvenient =(

It’s good they tell you they’re not comfortable to do the surgery, but it’s rather difficult to understand how anyone could think a uterine mass would be external. I’m glad you reacted when they said external!

We have had other members whose rabbits have had emergency spays for uterine masses. Uterine cancer is as a rule slow to grow and spread, but it’s common to do a chest x-ray to see if there’s been spread to the lungs, in which case, surgery to remove the primary tumor won’t cure the cancer.

[Bunnisox]

The previous vet that diagnosed the mass by palpation, they didn’t take an xray.
I would prefer her to be sedated / under anesthesia if they x-ray her because it’s so stressful. In which case, we can do the x-ray right before the surgery that way she won’t need to be under anesthesia more than once. Does that sound right? I was told by the doctor that found the mass that it’s very stressful for them to get x-rays so they like to put them under anesthesia first. If it hasn’t spread, then they do the surgery at that time, if it has spread, then they just wake her up. Is this normal practice for x-rays?

[Author]

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