Sudden trouble in paradise

[RabbitMom2020]

OK – this is actually a bonding question but I can’t post on the bonding page for some reason – I think it is because I am new to the forum

Hello, I am the mother of 4 rabbits – 3 elderly spayed females Binky (english spotted 10-11? years old), Sunny (english spotted 10-11? years old) Kiwi (black dutch 8-9? years old) and one young spayed (at 6months) female Mango (blue dwarf dutch 2 years old).  My 4 rabbits have been living in relative harmony for about 1.5 years in a free-range indoor area.  Binky and Sunny are a bonded pair while Kiwi and Mango are independent rabbits – they all sit together and will cuddle up next to each other but they aren’t all “bonded.” Sunny USED to be an aggressive rabbit towards all rabbits but Binky and SOMETIMES gets aggressive but is mostly docile and gentle towards everyone now.  Kiwi, Binky and Mango try to hump each other to set up dominance and who is queen.  It was Binky before last year but after a year of sickness (so many vet visits…) I think Kiwi is the Queen Bun now… Though it MAY be Mango…? Lots of poop wars all over the place between those three but no physical aggression.

Anyway, Mango has been a real brat since I cleaned their 10ftx8ft tarp area Monday 09/7/2020 and decided to give them an organized warren tunnel run (cardboard boxes with holes cut in the sides that lead into a circle).  She keeps chasing Sunny, trying to mount her and has pulled fur at least twice – this morning she even chased Sunny away from their morning pellets (greens are at night).  This often happens between Dawn and at Dusk and usually calms down during the day.  I do not have a cage or x pen set up for them anymore so separation is difficult – we can either put Mango in the “Quarantine” Cage which is one of two story cages they sell for rabbits at Petsmart for when they get sick (Not recommended as Mango is a very active rabbit and Sunny is bonded with Binky – not enough room for two), I can set their old x pens up (one is broken but works) or build an indoor hutch… I don’t have a lot of options…

What do you guys recommend I do?  Sunny is old and timid, though sometimes can lunge and take fur.  Mango is young and spirited, usually not aggressive but for some reason has decided Sunny is who she is going to be aggressive to…

Mango is on the left, Sunny on the Right  (around a year ago)

Kiwi is on the Left, Binky on the Right and Mango is just super cozy in the back (around a year ago)

Mango and Kiwi

[DanaNM]

You have already identified your main problem: the 4 are not fully bonded (unless I misunderstood what you meant by this?). The change in the territory arrangement triggered some new territorial disputes. Unless you plan to formally bond them as a quad, you should not let them roam together, as they are likely to hurt each other.

I recommend getting some x-pens or nic cube grids again so you can divide up the space so you can give separate housing to the pair and the two singles.

That said, the fact that they coexisted together for so long means that they are probably almost bonded and would likely be pretty easy to full bond. Perhaps they did have some sort of bond worked out, but it was weak enough that the change in territory disrupted it? I can imagine a circle of tunnels triggering some chasing. You would still want to figure out some housing for them though to use during the process. You could also decide to have a trio and keep Mango as a single, since she is the troublemaker of the group.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[RabbitMom2020]

While I was working yesterday, my significant other ended up having to set up the X Pen again and put Mango in it by herself with all her necessities.  He also let her out over night… and this morning I ended up putting her back in the pen with Kiwi so she could have her “cool aunt” buddy.  Kiwi and Mango got fed in the pen while Binky and Sunny got fed on the outside.

Tonight (and probably for the next couple weeks) I am going to end up putting the four rabbits in the tub and trying to get a full quad bond going.  My worry is Sunny has historically been aggressive towards Kiwi – they were only allowed to go without separate areas because Sunny stopped being aggressive after Binky attacked Sunny for going after Mango when Mango was just a little baby. Binky loves Mango.  Mango… well she is an independent bun through and through.  If the Quad doesn’t quite work, I think I am going to keep trying for Kiwi and Mango as a duo bond as I worry Sunny will attack Kiwi if Binky isn’t there.  Binky and Sunny are 10 or 11 (they are my boyfriend’s rabbits and he got them as rescue buns when they were around 2 years old in 2012ish). I hate to think like this, but Binky and Sunny both have geriatric issues with their age.  If Binky were to go first, Sunny will likely attack Kiwi and Mango both (unless I can get a true Quad Bond going).  If Sunny were to go first, I believe a Trio Bond would work for Kiwi, Mango and Binky.  Right now, Kiwi is very much still an active rabbit who likes to explore, much like Mango.  Kiwi, Mango and even sometimes slow Binky often like to go on adventures together throughout the house.  Sunny is very content in her small 10ft by 8ft tarp area, VERY rarely exploring outside of it, only liking Carpet or Tarp areas.

I will likely have to switch to Binky and Sunny being in the X Pen so that Kiwi and Mango can explore for now.  Mango is NOT happy being unable to explore and has been sulking.  Binky and Sunny were in the closed off X Pen for years because Sunny liked to attack Kiwi and are quite happy in their own bubble spaces.  I will be making 2 4ft tall 2ftx6ft with 3×16″ tall floors hutches (possibly a “ground” floor warren level that exits the hutch) for the X Pen areas so they have more space to run around.  I worry they won’t have enough space…

Anyway I will reply back with what happens

Mango and Kiwi

[HipHopBunny]

You sure have been through quite the time! 😮

I’m currently in the bonding process as well, with my three lovely ladies. 🙂 A bit of a back-story on us: Silver is dominant, and bonded to OB. They both will sometimes bully Smokey, still working out the kinks.

I started a thread called “Bungled Bonding Updates” where some members have responded and made it so that I have a chance at bonding, and have not completely made them all solitary buns. 😆 Maybe this thread could help you? I have noticed some similarities between them. 🙂

What has really helped me is stress bonding (putting them somewhere small so that they have to snuggle) each of them with Smokey, then letting them out together. This has greatly improved us, and Silver and OB will now let Smokey flop with them. 😀 Maybe you could try that with Sunny and Kiwi? You could also try it with Mango and Sunny? I like to pet them when I do this, for that can really calm them down. It is very encouraging that they at least at bonded half of the time, you will get there! 😀

Do you want a quad, or do you want two duos? Both could potentially work, and it does sound very tough to separate them all, I hear your frustration. 🙁 Hopefully, the stress bonding will help, for me, it really brought up their bond so much, that I’ve been thinking about doing some marathons. 🙂

Wishing you luck, and easy bonding! 😉

[RabbitMom2020]

I have read your thread a little!  Last update I saw was on 09/10/2020.  I am going to see where the Tub bonding goes first then will definitely consider the car ride – it looked like an interesting idea and I have a dual carrier for when I bring Sunny and Binky out (they NEVER go to the vet alone, even if only one has an appointment lol)

I WANT a Quad.  I would be OK with 2 Duos.  I just don’t want Kiwi to go back to being lonely and I want Mango to not attack Sunny out of no where.  I now technically have 4 X Pens, 2 are 48 inches tall brand spanking new still in the box for the hutch project I already planned BEFORE trouble started, I have 1 fully functional 36″ tall X Pen that was Sunny and Binky’s before the Great Bunny Integration of 2019 and I have 1 Mostly Functional 36″ tall X Pen that the door is bent on due to Alan falling on it within minutes of getting it all those years ago that was Kiwi’s before we got Mango and weird harmony started.  Separating technically only requires me to get the original X pens out of storage (ugh) and setting them up again.  One has already been removed from storage because of the Mango-Sunny fiasco.

Kiwi and Mango will totally dig the petting – if I am petting one of them, the other HAS to come over and put her head down for pets as well.  If i don’t oblige, I will get foot stomps and backward glaring from either.  Sunny, the poor girl, looks so much like she wants to get pet, will come up curiously and sniff my hand as I pet the other two but she feels like Binky (who absolutely REFUSES any human interaction if she can help it and stomps her foot if I so much as let her sniff my finger… or talk to anyone in her immediate presence) will judge her – you can tell by the backward glance toward Binky and the slow forlorn hop away lol.  I may check if I can get those THREE together without Binky and see what the dynamic is….with a flour sifter handy if need be for fights. Maybe put their Quarantine cage on a wagon and take them for a spin around the yard together?

OK – working another 7 hours (work 12s) and then off to give rabbits a play date! Will update on the status of RabbitVille once I get a few days into the bonding process

Mango and Kiwi

[RabbitMom2020]

So – have to put the Hopes for a Quad on the back burner for now.

Had 2 single dates that went kinda crappy – Mango attacked Sunny a couple times but we calmed it down. Kiwi was a little nippy both times because the enclosure was too small (not hard nip – basically warnings of “don’t get too close to me right now”) – she did the same thing in both the 4×4 X Pen I set up upstairs and the bathtub.  She has not done it in the 4x6ft enclosure that is downstairs now (more information about that below)

Small background information –  Sunny has a tumor which we knew about, got it tested and got the news it could be Benign or Malignant back in June but they needed a full biopsy to be sure – we opted to watch it for over a month and it did not seem to grow much more so we did not want to put our 11 year old rabbit through anything traumatic at that time.

This week when we were moving the rabbits out of the Neutral Zone after Date #2 to interact for a while, I thought Sunny’s tumor was covered in poop so I tried pulling some off and I either accidentally pulled off skin or it was a scab that I accidentally picked off.  It got slightly bloody.  It looks terrible.  Based on information on here, I applied a local antiseptic that was provided to me by my Vet last year for another Sunny issue, Neosporin and Silver Sulfadiazine 1% that I have from something Binky had last year, and called the Vet for an appointment.  Because the area looks red and may be giving Sunny more pain than she is letting on, we gave the decision to have the tumor removed in case it gets worse – the appointment is on 09/30/2020.  The tumor will be biopsied then and we will find out if we should worry about it coming back. Going shopping next week for Preemie baby skirts with elastic bands to put on Sunny so she doesn’t bother the stitches when she gets home

At this time, Sunny is in Quarantine twice a day for a couple of hours while the Neosporin and Silver Sulfadiazine has time to work into her skin.  After her small Quarantine periods, she is on a Buddy Schedule lol

5:30am-7:30am OR 8am-10am (depending on work schedules): Sunny is alone in Quarantine with her own breakfast pellets and all other necessities after application of topical antibiotic (Quarantine IS next to the other bunnies so she can at least see her friends – Mango is trying to bite Sunny through the X Pen bars though 😕 )

From 7:30am-8pm OR 10am-8pm: Binky, Kiwi and Sunny share Sunny’s 4ftx6ft Quarantine enclosure to have Adult Bunny time

8pm-10pm OR overnight: Sunny is alone in Quarantine with her very own Critical Care (half daily dose  per her weight + her prescribed antibiotics) + her 2 cups of veggies after application of topical antibiotics.  She LOVES Critical Care – even the original!

10PM to 5:30am (if applicable): Binky gets put back into the Quarantine X Pen with Sunny IF Sunny finishes her Critical Care by the time we go to bed (Last night she did not – we think she was full of her veggies – so she had a semi-lonely night unfortunately).  Kiwi gets to explore the house all night with Mango

Binky and Kiwi seem very chill with Sunny – they like to practically lay on one another.  I will get pictures to you guys eventually

Mango has started leaving rows of poop around Sunny’s enclosure.  I keep cleaning it up and putting it back in the general litter box…

I will try bonding again after all health issues reside.  Who knows?  Maybe Mango has been upset because the tumor area smelled funky suddenly and she didn’t like it – maybe she will stop being SUCH a brat after Sunny gets it removed… hopefully… will still try the bonding thing

Mango and Kiwi

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