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Forum BONDING So sad – broken bond is all my fault

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    • Talkal
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      16 posts Send Private Message

        I really need some support right now. I’ve had a 2 year old neutered male rex named Gizmo since last October. About 6 weeks ago, I brought home an unspayed female rabbit as a  companion for him since I’m out of the house more and more. Pepper was about 4 months when I got her, so I didn’t expect them to bond before her surgery. I did a few bonding sessions that went about as well as expected but over time, they got more comfortable with each other. I moved Pepper’s cage to the living room and eventually she went free roam as their bond grew naturally and she had good litter habits. They were grooming and cuddling Gizmo seemed genuinely happier and more energetic. I knew I would probably have to start rebonding after her surgery (which is in about 2 weeks) but I was happy to see them enjoying each other’s company until then.

        Well, when I went to get Pepper at the pet store, there was an adorable netherland dwarf named Loki who had been twice returned by owners who claimed she was aggressive. In reality, she’s a young unspayed doe, and so was exhibiting typical behaviours, such as biting and lunging. The second owners also let their 2 year old play with her and, of course, the child got bit. The parents returned her to the store. I was so shocked because I went to visit the store a few more times to get supplies and would pick her up and pet her and she was so sweet and affectionate. I fell in love with her and wanted to take her home. I asked the store if they could hold her until Pepper’s surgery was over, as I knew having two unspayed young females in one space would be difficult. They said the surgery date was too far and they couldn’t keep her for me. So last week I went ahead and brought her home. I planned on keeping her away from the other two until Pepper’s surgery. When Loki came home, neither bun really seemed to notice. They were relaxing in the living room as usual.

        I don’t know why, but I decided to bring Loki down to their level and let them sniff each other, just to get used to her smell. BIG MISTAKE! HUGE! I feel like such a dummy. I held Loki in my arms and as Pepper was approaching, Gizmo jumped down from a box and accidentally grazed Pepper. Normally, this would’ve been fine, but I guess the timing was bad as Pepper completely flipped out and attacked Gizmo. I quickly stashed Loki in her cage in my room and split the two. Things calmed down after that and they were back to cuddling so I just chalked it up to bad timing. However, Pepper immediately began spraying and pooping everywhere! Marking her territory. I tried to retrain her, clean up her mess, spray everything down…nothing worked. She’s now in an x-pen in the living room. I figured I could let her out for a few hours a day to get some exercise and cuddle with Gizmo and I would just deal with the mess. However, for about 2 days now, Pepper and Gizmo have been viciously fighting. I think Gizmo misses her, because he keeps going up to her pen and trying to groom her through the bars. But as soon as she’s out, she gets scared and runs away from him or turns around and attacks. They’ll be moments of peace, but as soon as I leave the room, Gizmo starts chasing her and they fight. I’m not sure if Pepper was just too nippy and he had enough, or if they’re trying to mount each other. And the thing is, they have the option of being in different rooms but they choose to stay together, even when they fight. I can tell Pepper is more relaxed in the x-pen, and Gizmo is hanging out right next to her but I want her to be able to go out and get some exercise. And I’m afraid all this fighting is going to lead them to hating each other and ruin any potential for a bond.

        I’m really stressed and heartbroken about this. I just wanted Gizmo to have friends and give Pepper and Loki a happy home, but I feel like I messed it up by making bad decisions. And now Pepper and Loki are both going to be spayed in 2 weeks and I’m hoping that fixes things. I dunno, I just need to know that someone else has gone through something like this, or what to do in the next few weeks. 


      • Asriel and Bombur
        Participant
        1104 posts Send Private Message

          They weren’t even bonded. You can’t bond an unspayed doe with a neutered male. You knew it was extremely risky and you still did it. You also didn’t let either girl settle in before charging into bonding. You need to have patience. Both girls need settle away from each other and your original bun. They aren’t going to show their true personalities until they’re comfortable in the new surroundings, at least 1-2 months of settling in. Not to mention, as you seemed to already know, you shouldn’t have unfixed bunnies near a fixed bunny. First, all they will want to do is kill each other. Second, your boy will act on their hormones. Bunnies don’t just make friends and bonding is a lot of work and patience. They shouldn’t have any interaction at all (no play time and no cage time) and a barrier should be up between all 3 enclosures because bunnies can fight between gaps in the bars. They’re going to remain afraid of each other and be extremely difficult to bond if you continue trying to do so.

          Stop trying to bond them until both girls have been fixed and have had 2 months to heal and have hormones dissipate. In that time you can prebond. After 2 months you can begin session in neutral territory.

          I’m not trying to sound harsh but bunnies can literally kill each other and fight to the death. So it really is important that you have patience and wait for the proper timing. I know you want them to be friends, and if you do everything right, and not rush, there’s no reason why they won’t be… in time. 


        • sarahthegemini
          Participant
          5584 posts Send Private Message

            Posted By Talkal on 9/02/2018 11:14 PM

            I really need some support right now. I’ve had a 2 year old neutered male rex named Gizmo since last October. About 6 weeks ago, I brought home an unspayed female rabbit as a  companion for him since I’m out of the house more and more. Pepper was about 4 months when I got her, so I didn’t expect them to bond before her surgery. I did a few bonding sessions that went about as well as expected but over time, they got more comfortable with each other. I moved Pepper’s cage to the living room and eventually she went free roam as their bond grew naturally and she had good litter habits. They were grooming and cuddling Gizmo seemed genuinely happier and more energetic. I knew I would probably have to start rebonding after her surgery (which is in about 2 weeks) but I was happy to see them enjoying each other’s company until then.

            Well, when I went to get Pepper at the pet store, there was an adorable netherland dwarf named Loki who had been twice returned by owners who claimed she was aggressive. In reality, she’s a young unspayed doe, and so was exhibiting typical behaviours, such as biting and lunging. The second owners also let their 2 year old play with her and, of course, the child got bit. The parents returned her to the store. I was so shocked because I went to visit the store a few more times to get supplies and would pick her up and pet her and she was so sweet and affectionate. I fell in love with her and wanted to take her home. I asked the store if they could hold her until Pepper’s surgery was over, as I knew having two unspayed young females in one space would be difficult. They said the surgery date was too far and they couldn’t keep her for me. So last week I went ahead and brought her home. I planned on keeping her away from the other two until Pepper’s surgery. When Loki came home, neither bun really seemed to notice. They were relaxing in the living room as usual.

            I don’t know why, but I decided to bring Loki down to their level and let them sniff each other, just to get used to her smell. BIG MISTAKE! HUGE! I feel like such a dummy. I held Loki in my arms and as Pepper was approaching, Gizmo jumped down from a box and accidentally grazed Pepper. Normally, this would’ve been fine, but I guess the timing was bad as Pepper completely flipped out and attacked Gizmo. I quickly stashed Loki in her cage in my room and split the two. Things calmed down after that and they were back to cuddling so I just chalked it up to bad timing. However, Pepper immediately began spraying and pooping everywhere! Marking her territory. I tried to retrain her, clean up her mess, spray everything down…nothing worked. She’s now in an x-pen in the living room. I figured I could let her out for a few hours a day to get some exercise and cuddle with Gizmo and I would just deal with the mess. However, for about 2 days now, Pepper and Gizmo have been viciously fighting. I think Gizmo misses her, because he keeps going up to her pen and trying to groom her through the bars. But as soon as she’s out, she gets scared and runs away from him or turns around and attacks. They’ll be moments of peace, but as soon as I leave the room, Gizmo starts chasing her and they fight. I’m not sure if Pepper was just too nippy and he had enough, or if they’re trying to mount each other. And the thing is, they have the option of being in different rooms but they choose to stay together, even when they fight. I can tell Pepper is more relaxed in the x-pen, and Gizmo is hanging out right next to her but I want her to be able to go out and get some exercise. And I’m afraid all this fighting is going to lead them to hating each other and ruin any potential for a bond.

            I’m really stressed and heartbroken about this. I just wanted Gizmo to have friends and give Pepper and Loki a happy home, but I feel like I messed it up by making bad decisions. And now Pepper and Loki are both going to be spayed in 2 weeks and I’m hoping that fixes things. I dunno, I just need to know that someone else has gone through something like this, or what to do in the next few weeks. 

            There’s a few things you’ve done wrong here. Not trying to shame you, just inform you so you know what to avoid next time. First things first, you must always let rabbits settle before beginning bonding. As A&B said, if bunny isn’t comfortable in his or her surroundings, they are not going to act themselves. A lot of people make the mistake of bonding immediately and then once the new bun has gained comfort and confidence, they act out/strive for dominance which can be dangerous and a scuffle (or worse) ensues. So, do make sure you let everybun settle away from each other (separate rooms if poss) for at least a month.

            You definitely mustn’t bond a neutered bun with an unspayed bun (or vice versa) This is because once the youngest reaches sexual maturity, there is a strong urge to mate and defend their territory. A neutered bun can react to the presence of hormones in the other and will basically act as though he hasn’t been neutered. Hormonal rabbits can be verrry dangerous and unpredictable too!

            When you introduce bunnies, it must be after careful pre bonding for at least a month and must always be in neutral territory. So no more bringing one bun into the other’s territory.

            What I would suggest is splitting up everybun, in separate rooms so that they can all settle in and forget that they’ve fought. I would keep them like this for a month at least. Get the 2 newest buns spayed and neutered. You can move them all in to the same room at this point and start pre bonding. You should pre bond for at least a month but you also need to wait for their hormones to disipate. Once you’ve sufficiently pre bonded, you can do a physical introduction but it must be somewhere that no bun has been. We can help advise further once you get to that point but as you see, you’ve got a while yet.


          • Talkal
            Participant
            16 posts Send Private Message

              I appreciate all the advice. I would like to clarify that I did do my homework before getting a second bun. Several sources I found said that though bonding unaltered rabbits was difficult, it was not unheard of. I kept Gizmo and Pepper separated for two weeks before introducing them to each other. I didn’t read anywhere about keeping them apart for a month, so I appreciate the advice there. I also knew that bonding was a risk, but, as I said, a few websites said it might work since Gizmo is neutered and they seemed to be getting along well.

              I’m not trying to sound defensive, but I’m really shook by this. And I can see now where I made mistakes. I didn’t go into this blindly but am seeing now that there are all sorts of bumps in the road that the sources I consulted didn’t prepare me for. However, like I acknowledged, introducing Loki right away was a big mistake. It was moment of bad judgment on my part. The buns are now separated and I’ll give them time to exercise separately. Their surgery is scheduled for a few weeks from now so I’ll keep them like this for another 6 weeks before trying to reintroduce them. Any other advice to smooth the transition would be welcome.


            • Bunny House
              Participant
              1241 posts Send Private Message

                It’s a shame that many websites act as if they know bunnies and post bs info on it. Really, this website is the only website I’ve found that has true info on it. So I am always on here researching but also helping people like yourself that have read wrong info.

                Of course you did somethings wrong but now you know not to do them again as Two of my buns were inches away from killing eachother.

                Since the buns probably have grudges toward eachother, you are going to need to prebond for probably 2 months or longer( I know we always want to jump to the bonding). You just need to be patient and ride the waves, they will have good and bad days but try not to stress them or yourself out.

                As A&B said, you can prebond during the recovery of the spays but remember their hormones can still be surging so they might be acting extra territorial but you can prebond for those 6 weeks and then continue to prebond for another 4-6 weeks and then start the bonding dates in neutral territory such as a bathroom or kitchen. There are many forums on here about actual bonding tips and on house rabbit society that can help nun parents like you.

                I know you probably feel bad. I’ve made mistakes when I tried to bond my quartet 2 years ago and just didn’t know any better but now I know so I can try and bond my trio. Don’t beat yourself up but don’t do those mistakes again.


              • LBJ10
                Moderator
                16908 posts Send Private Message

                  Don’t beat yourself up about it too much. Sometimes the information out there is incorrect or inconsistent. For example, there are lists out there about rabbit-safe plants. Some will say X plant is safe, others with say X plant is toxic. It’s confusing.

                  Just reading what you wrote, I can see what probably happened. Gizmo is neutered, but he also sounds a bit on the mellow side. He wants a companion. Pepper was young enough at the start that she probably didn’t have enough hormones to set Gizmo off (which can and does happen, even with a neutered male). Everything seemed fine, but Pepper really was just a ticking time bomb. Would she have been OK until she was spayed? Nobody knows that. But when another young female was introduced, Pepper’s territorial/hormonal response was flipped on like a light switch. Now, she it in this heightened state, so everything probably feels like a possible threat to her territory now… even Gizmo. So she lashes out at him as well now and Gizmo is responding to that. Things are probably going to remain like this until she is spayed now. Her hormones have taken over and you can’t just put them back.

                  I do agree with the others. It is best to just keep everyone separate for the time being. Get the girls spayed. Let everything settle down. Then start the bonding process again.

                  For the record, there are stories of two young rabbits staying together up until they are spayed/neutered, having the surgery, and then going right back to each other. This isn’t the norm though. This is why it is recommended to play things safe, even if it seems like overkill. You just never know what will trigger them into fight mode.


                • BinkyBunny
                  Moderator
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                    You are not the only one who has done this, and you won’t be the last so this is actually a very good example for others to learn from to prevent these kinds of situations.  I am sorry you and your bunnies get to the be the “learning lesson”.  You certainly have taken ownership of the decision right away and it’s obvious you feel very bad.  Luckily, bunnies are not hurt and while this is stressful and will be inconvenient and bit messy for while, it is not insurmountable. Just take a deep breath. Its a set-back, but you’ve received good advice to help get things back on track.


                  • LBJ10
                    Moderator
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                      That is very true BB!


                    • Talkal
                      Participant
                      16 posts Send Private Message

                        Thank you everyone! This has been quite a learning experience. All buns are doing well now in their own areas. I’m so glad I invested in a babygate, it’s been so useful.

                        So for prebonding, a month after their surgery, I should move Loki’s cage next to Pepper’s enclosure? Would that be a good way to start? I’ll be doing lots of reading on bonding trios through this website but I figured that was a good first step.

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                    Forum BONDING So sad – broken bond is all my fault