(Bonded!) Ruby and Maxwell

[Susanne]

Hi all! I thought I’d start a new thread with the bonding template/ journal for my 2 since I haven’t done much with them yet and the actual bonding was getting buried in my other thread. I plan to start with putting them together for sessions starting Friday 10/29. The good news, Max has seemed to settle, and the poop wars are diminishing. They lay along the fence close to each other, and Ruby isn’t aggressively chasing him down the fence anymore.

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes
If so, for how long (for each)? Ruby over 1 year, Max at least several months
If not, why not?
Are you aware of reproductive cancer risk in females? If not, please read about it here.

Housing
Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.).  They are neighbors. Max has a large 50+ sq foot area of a bedroom, there is a fence up, and Ruby has the other part of the bedroom plus a hall and 2nd bedroom.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”?  Max has been here over 2 weeks, I tried sessions after a few days but have taken a break for more settle in time
How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? Right now they are curious, calm, a little indifferent. 
Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? I’ve switched them a couple times in the last week
If so, for how long? I let Max in her area about 12 hours each time.
Have you started sessions yet? I did 2 a couple days after getting Max home. The first one was very good, but the second Ruby was being a bully and did not end well. (They did not fight, but Ruby charged/ boxed towards him and bit me, Max bit me when I picked him up though I don’ t think it was intended for Ruby)
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? About 2 weeks
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? Once I start this week, I will have to decide based on how they act together. Ideally several times a week and as long as possible. Will keep them short if needed for the first several.
Have you tried any stressing techniques? No

[Susanne]

We had a bonding session today. I did it during the afternoon sleepy time. It went ok… I think?

Ruby was still tense, but at times acted super comfortable. Basically they ended up cheek to cheek laying down, I was petting. They both purred during that. Ruby started grooming him a little. She also groomed herself, and he put his head under her and she kept grooming herself with him under her.

The not so good was Ruby still is nippy with him, but maybe a little less than last time. She nipped his rear when he was hopping away but didn’t chase. I think she nipped his face. He didn’t really react.

Oh also at the end she started humping his head. I let her for a few seconds because he seemed ok and she used to do the same to Elmer. I gently pulled her off, he looked happy.. then ended the date. It was only about 30 min.

[DanaNM]

Sounds pretty positive to me!

I don’t mind face mounting in bonded pairs, but in a bonding session I will spin the mounter around so they are in the “correct” orientation to avoid a bite to the genitals if the mounted bun get’s tired of it.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks Dana. The whole thing has me so stressed, I’m still very worried about them fighting. Ruby and Elmer had such a different dynamic, and not sure what to think of all Ruby’s nipping. But yet she groomed him already. I did put a dustpan barrier between them a couple times last session.

I think I’m just going to take it slow. Maybe try for another afternoon 30 minutes in the next few days. Seems like as long as it’s their nap time they do pretty good.

[DanaNM]

Taking it slow is usually a good strategy! Take some deep breaths and maybe have a cup of calming tea before hand. 🙂

It’s normal to be nervous about scuffling, but just remember that if you are right there to break it up it’s unlikely they will get hurt (even if some fur flies). In most of the bunnies I’ve bonded there has been some scuffling at some point (despite my best efforts to prevent it), and it doesn’t mean they won’t bond.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Well I did another 30 min session today. After a hike when I felt calm, ha. They did about the same, if not a little more tense for most the time. Maxwell doesn’t do much. He lays flat and closes his eyes when he’s close to her. I think it might frustrate Ruby but to me it’s better than a fight.

They did some head butts where I petted and they didn’t get too upset, and Ruby did groom him little. I’m not sure at what point, but she started nudging under his side.. I heard some grunting as he turned at her side too and nipped maybe? but not one was bitten and I put dustpan between them.

She also tried to mount his head again. I put her the right direction and I let her mount for about 30 seconds. He was fine. The. She came back for his head and I stopped her.. and boxed me. I’m pretty sure it was for me not him.

Finally, after a short separation, they did more laying, heads together. I pet them a minute or so and they seemed slightly more calm by then. I picked up Max to put him back.. she did do a half hearted lunge at the movement but think it ended pretty positive. It’s just not progressing much yet and I’m not super comfortable keeping them together longer until there is less tension.

 

[Susanne]

Ugh so I took them for a short date today, decided to put them in the carrier together first for some pets together to start it off without nips… About 1 minute after getting them out, Max shook his foot like before grooming and I saw droplets of blood fly. I put them back in the carrier, smooshed and pet… them took him back to evaluate. He is at the vet now for ripped out nail, down to the bed. I think it may have been when I put him in the carrier, I felt something snag but I thought his back foot missed – not entirely sure how it got his inner front nail but I feel horrible. They are holding him until the vet can look, it was bad enough that the tech couldn’t patch him up.

So on the bright side they had a few minutes of pets together :/

[DanaNM]

Awww bummer about the nail! Don’t feel too bad, things happen.

The session before that sounded like it went ok! I’ve seen that behavior before, where one bun kind of pins themselves to the ground and the other will nip their side. I don’t really know how to interpret it, but I agree it’s better than full on fighting. Hopefully you can try another carrier session once he’s patched up.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, luckily the nail turned out to be minor, and it doesn’t seem to phase him at all!

The bonding could definitely be going worse, but it’s hard feeling like if I wasn’t right there they’d fight quickly. Not an outright attack at least. Yes, next time I think I’ll do the carrier for a bit first.

Problem now is Ruby is hating me. The meds for URI is going horrible.. both of them are almost impossible. They hate the syringe and meds, and I can barely hold them. I’ve missed a few times after 2 doses! I think I can get Max to eat them in some baby food since he’ll eat it without the meds, but Ruby on the other hand is the pickiest bun ever! She won’t eat greens, carrots, or baby food so far. Ugh anyway just venting at this point. I may do a short bonding session tomorrow but I’m worried if they are in a bad mood from getting meds and cage swaps it will go poorly.

[DanaNM]

What about mixing them in mashed banana?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

The baby food I got was banana. I also got apple and put them both out for her. She sniffed but would not taste either one! I’m going to run up to the store tonight and get some raspberries and Strawberries, maybe some other fruit and try and find something she likes. I just can’t believe all she wants is hay, and a few pellets. Oh and her treat, but it’s a timothy hay chew stick so I don’t think I can get the meds in that.

[Susanne]

Well I guess the meds are just too gross, I couldn’t really get anybun to eat them in other food. So stuck with the force feeding which Ruby is not doing well from. Max bounces back, but she is acting depressed. She has slowed down eating but not stopped completely so I think OK for now.

I put them on a short date today, but now Ruby is afraid of me there too. I think she is scared of doing something wrong with Max so she ignored him mostly. I pet them nose to nose at least a little bit. At one point she tried to hump his head as usual, I was able to put her the right way.. she did this weird thing where she made some noise I’ve never heard then looked like tried to jump over him??? What was that? Then I guess scared her when I went to intervene and she ran to a corner. They groomed themselves about 5 ft apart. She tried to hump his head again and she cowered as soon as I went to move her. I guess on the bright side she isn’t grunting, only one “fake’ nip. Again, could just be scared of me though.. seems better than fighting?

Anyway- I think I’ve made things worse. Not sure what else to do about Ruby and her hating this med situation. We aren’t even past day 2 of 14. I’ve thought about stopping giving them to her, since she really hasn’t shown symptoms, but then again if she is starting a URI I’d hate for her to give back to him, or get it while treating him, etc. He may not even have one either but his nose does run a little.

[DanaNM]

Honestly, I’d prob pause dates and side swaps while you handle their meds etc (but maybe keep doing litter box swaps). I think it just may help Ruby to have a bit less daily handling, and  I think it’s probably just a lot for all of you to handle! It’s generally not recommended to bond while either rabbit has a medical concern, so that would be the safest thing to do anyway. Bonding is stressful, which can lower the immune system and make recovery slower. I’m sorry that’s probably not an answer you’d love to hear!

When you do start again, you might try to ease off intervening immediately and see how it goes. To my memory, they haven’t had a bad fight in a while (?), so it may be time to back off a bit and see what happens.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, it’s a lot. I’m debating stopping the meds for Ruby. I don’t know if it’s worth how she is acting right now considering she probably doesn’t have symptoms (I thought under her nose was wet one day but not sure)

I could probably stop the side swaps and bring Maxwell down to a bigger area in the living to play each day..

For the dates, they haven’t spent tons of time together. Maybe 4 or 5 now and some only 30 min. I did only intervene today when she mounted his head, but I’m still not trusting of Ruby at all. They never got in a fight because I’m very hands on. The most that happened was they did start a tight circle and I separated (meanwhile they both bit me). No fur has been pulled at all…

 

 

[DanaNM]

Hmmm, yeah i can’t really advise on the meds, but you should check with the vet. My concern would be that if there was an infection, it could become antibiotic resistant with only doing a partial course of meds.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Good point, wouldn’t want resistance. It’s so tough, the vet wanted to wait on antibiotics but his nose kept looking wet so I made the call to order them. I tried to call tonight and she is out of town for 2 weeks :/ So I suppose I’ll keep giving them (assuming they can give me more since I’ve wasted a bunch already) and halt bonding. Just gave again with some pineapple juice in the syringe. I think I got all of in both of them but Ruby is back in her box. She hasn’t ate much today and won’t eat a treat now 🙁

[DanaNM]

Gahh so stressful. Come on Ruby, stop stressing out your human!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Hello, so I started up bonding sessions again! I’m not exactly sure what it all means.

One was for an hour and mostly ignoring. Today I did the longest yet, 4 hours. It was intense and Ruby was really nippy. She didn’t seem to want him close for long. A lot of head wars and Ruby frustration it looked like.  Ruby kept trying to hump his head and didn’t like being put the right way. Max started running away.. Max tried to hump her and she got mad.. Ruby managed to get a nice clump of fur out of him, and I did a lot of intervening. The good thing is they both didn’t keep going after each other once I intervened, but they couldn’t interact without someone getting upset within a minute. Although oddly she would still give him an occasional groom.

After maybe a couple hours they were getting more tired and Max kept trying to approach her. After getting chased off a couple times, she finally let him lay with her and they cuddled. Ruby even flopped against him.

I’m worried about them resetting each time.

[DanaNM]

Do you feel they tend to get better towards the end of the bonding sessions when they are long? Or are they just building frustration? I wonder if maybe shorter sessions would help you not have to intervene so much?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Well they seem to vary quite a bit, but I haven’t done many and they were spread apart. I think they’ve probably only been together 10 hours over the past 2 months. The two this week were 1 hour and 4 hours of that 10, and they did the best at the end of the long one. It could be that it was prime sleeping time and maybe I just need to keep them in the afternoon. They just have so many mixed signals 😮  I thought it was going badly but it’s just more work than her and Elmer.

My plan for now is do another long one Sunday and see if it also calms down after the first hour or two. Then I’m off 6 days over Thanksgiving so might try a marathon. (I got more rugs for kitchen and chew things) depends on how they are when I need to get sleep.. guess I’ll be sleeping in the kitchen or very close!

[DanaNM]

Gotcha! You also might try to do some sort of session every day, even if it’s short (like 10 minutes). I think some sort of interaction daily will help, even if you only have time for longer sessions on the weekends.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing with getting to daily sessions. I think after Sunday I should be good, and hope they are doing well enough for a marathon by Thursday or Friday. Is it 24 hours in neutral without intervening that I can move them to semi neutral?  I have a large area in my living blocked off that I’ve been using for them to play so I can hang with them and watch TV… it will be great once we progress to that area.

Fingers crossed the last one was progress and not just Ruby being too sleepy to be bothered..

[DanaNM]

Aww look at them 🙂

I usually do 48 hours in neutral with plenty of positive behaviors and no aggression. In my experience they will seem to “click” when bonded and you will notice they are just really relaxed around each other. If they seem tense, they prob more time. That said, if you can keep supervising consistently you could try them after 24 hours and if they get too tense just move back to neutral.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

That sounds good, like you said I can always move them back if they don’t do well in the semi neutral.

I did almost 9 hours with them yesterday!  So just like the last long session, they got better as time went on. It took Ruby ~3 hours to chill, probably because again she wanted to sleep. The first 3 hours was a lot of nipping, I had to stop her aggressive chasing a couple times and she did get a chunk of his fur once. Once I had my hand (with glove) there and it felt like a decently forceful bite, but not full force. I think her issue is that he hasn’t groomed her yet.

During the sleep they didn’t cuddle as much as last time, but would be within a couple feet of each other, both purr and go REM sleep twitchy so they must not have some trust.

Once they started getting active again Ruby was not so bad. She did do a very short growl and half hearted lunge but I didn’t have to intervene since she stopped. So basically, we did about the last 5 hours without me intervening. I guess that is progress?

I feel like they do tend to reset each meeting, so other than a couple short dates this week I think I may go forward and try a marathon later in the week during my holiday time off.  I can always cut it off if I don’t feel like I can trust them even if I’m in the room dozing off…

[DanaNM]

That sounds like very good progress!

I think going from bickering to just relaxing and somewhat ignoring each other is a really great sign of progress. Don’t be concerned if in the marathon you notice some cycles of back and forth between bickering phases and ignoring each other phases. I’ve always noticed things can get especially tense in the evening and early morning hours. I like to have some new things to chew to introduce during those phases, or even topping up the hay with some fresh (so they can having something to do other than argue). My favorite was when I would bond at my friend’s house, she had all this bamboo growing in her yard that the buns loved, so I would pick a bunch of fresh leaves and sprigs for them anytime they started to get active again.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks for the tips, and thanks for keeping up here considering all the landlord stuff :/ I’m sure as they get bored and more active there could be some steps backwards but I’m hopeful we can have a successful marathon.

A short report, I’m with them getting ready to wrap up a shorter session and for once they didn’t reset! I have not had to intervene at all. I came close a couple times but Ruby backed off rather than chase. She growled and lunged a couple times but didn’t actually nip him this time. They’ve mostly not interacted but are so much more comfortable sharing the space. Like sprawling out to rest instead of loafing, etc.

She did the funniest thing, she kinda jerked quicky and went towards him.. sniffed near his side and I thought for sure she would nip.. then suddenly turned and flopped 🙂

[DanaNM]

You’re welcome! It’s nice having the forum to distract me from how much I miss my own buns.

That’s awesome the shorter session went well! Maybe the longer one helped them get over a plateau. 🙂

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

We did another session last night. It started off good, and Maxwell groomed Ruby for the first time, so I thought this was great! But right after, he did a little run/ binky and I think it scared her, so she went after him.. which scared him.. then they seemed to go down a spiral of scaring/ defending themselves. I had to intervene multiple times since they started doing tight circles. It never got to the point where either nipped or bit hard, because no fur was pulled. In between these they both would lay relaxed a few feet apart or some head wars that didn’t escalate. Ruby seemed to start to get possessive of the area with hay tray (large shoe tray) and water bowl. Maxwell by the end was scared to go too close to her 🙁 I ended it when they were somewhat close and relaxed.

I still want to start a marathon tomorrow, I hope they can settle again after a longer time?  It’s like they are doing the most positive behaviors but yet don’t understand each other so they scuffle too. Maxwell is more high energy so Ruby may not know how to interpret him. For the marathon, I plan to add a second tray with hay and second water bowl… I’ll have some toys nearby to switch out, etc. I don’t want to put a tunnel or hidey box because I’m scared Ruby will try to claim it, but I can add them if they start to make progress, does that sound ok? I plan to start late morning, and if I can trust them for me to sleep in the room once I need to sleep then I’ll keep them together, otherwise we’ll end a long session.

[Susanne]

Oh I forgot, at one point they were both on the hay tray eating together, so it was very back and forth with positive/ negative until by the end Maxwell gave up trying and she was getting possessive, etc.

[DanaNM]

Oooh, one thing is I usually don’t add hay trays or litter boxes until they are doing really well together. They do tend to cause disputes, as you noticed, but it’s really good they were able to share the tray a little! I usually just put down puppy pee pads with big pile of hay in the middle. It’s definitely kind of a mess unfortunately.

I think you are good to start a marathon or at least plan an all day session, but I would probably not add any hay trays until they are doing really well and have been together a long time (like maybe after 24 hours or the first overnight). Also make sure they trays are either new or super clean.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yeah, I used a very large tray thinking they would see it more as a “hay station” vs a litter box, but with this I’ll just do 2 stations of hay on a puppy pad to start tomorrow. Having 2 should help too I think.. It will be easier to clean for a long day/ marathon also!

I don’t think the hay tray was the root cause of the scuffles, but I think it was secondary once the scuffles started. (since they both used it, and used it together a little) I noticed in other sessions as well, once they get on edge it starts to spiral. One session I startled them and they never got back on track. There was also a moment yesterday that I just remembered, Ruby did her “act like I might attack”, then flop right on his side thing again.. which scared him and that also started a little scuffle… So I KNOW they like each other, but are misreading. Or at least that is my human interpretation 🙂

Wish me luck tomorrow, I will probably take tonight off so I can prep the area for us and possibly run errands for more supplies.

[DanaNM]

One of the leads at the rescue I volunteer at always says that “rabbits don’t speak rabbit”, and compared them all to 14 year olds at their first school dance LOL

Good luck tomorrow! I agree taking a night off to prep is a good plan!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Well the marathon didn’t go forward 🙁  There was no way I could trust them even if I slept in the kitchen.  I pushed to 12 hours though. The session was mostly them far from each other doing their own thing, but almost each time Maxwell got too close Ruby nipped. Once, I had to stop a full blown fight. I put my gloved hand in front of Maxwell just in time, he latched onto my hand and bit me through the glove.. fell on his side kicking. She pulled some of his fur. Later she nipped and pulled fur again, and he stopped going near her. I decided I can’t allow the nipping, it was getting way too much and not helping sort out anything, just annoying Max.

I could barely watch a show on my laptop or eat in the entire 12 hours, because when one was up the other down and constantly making sure Ruby didn’t nip. After I got more actively involved she still got a couple but no more fur pulled. I got them cheek to cheek a couple times for pets and they purred… but that was all of 20-30 minutes out of 12 hours. I’m feeling defeated and very frustrated after almost 24 total hours in the kitchen with them the past week. It’s only gone downhill, now I sit there while they don’t interact or have mostly negative interactions. I don’t have the resources to do this for months (not 15 hours per week), and I don’t have help or other neutral spaces that I can sit in for that many hours. I have the next 5 days off that I dedicated just for bonding so my next step is stress and maybe the bathtub.  Will they be OK in a carrier on the dryer? I’m also afraid to drive them alone. Then a small space where they interact more but I can stop all the nipping. My mom is coming over Sunday, and I was thinking about a long car ride. Ruby and Elmer did an hour ride home when I got her, and I’m sure that isn’t the only factor but thinking back and seeing the difference in this pair, they were almost an instant bond.

If I can’t get anywhere in the next 5 days I have to decide what to do.  Do short sessions indefinitely even if it’s stagnant? Do short small/stress sessions for a while? Swap out Maxwell for a different bun? The whole reason I used the rescue far away was because they will swap.. honestly knowing how much easier it was with Elmer that seems more logical for everyone. The problem of course is now I am attached to Maxwell and the thought makes me cry. But I can’t indefinitely work with them, I need a life outside this, so if I keep him it’s looking like they could live separately, which defeats the purpose of getting her a new friend after being depressed over Elmer. Ugh.  Two separate rabbits has been exhausting I can’t imagine it long term.

[DanaNM]

Aww that’s such a bummer. I had a very similar experience when I tried to marathon to bond a trio. The two girls were behaving really similar to what you describe, where there was just no way I could handle an overnight.

I think it’s good you have an option to swap, but I personally would try some stressing before resorting to that (especially since you really like Maxwell and want to make it work). I think a ride on the washing machine sounds like a good idea. You can get an idea on how they are in a stressful situation, and if they are OK in that you could feel safe enough to do a car ride. I usually like to use a big plastic tub instead of a carrier, because it can be hard to intervene in a carrier if they scuffle. You could test them out on the washing machine, and if they do OK do a car ride with your mom there.

My very first bond was really hard (the buns in my avatar). Car rides at the suggestion of someone from a rescue were what finally got us moving forward (after several weeks/months of trying bathroom dates). I basically would do a 10 min car ride with them each day for about a week. That basically got them to stop fighting in the dates (they would just attack each other immediately before that). Then we had some weeks of stalemate where I stopped stressing them but they just ignored each other. Finally they “clicked” and were madly in love. It did take about 3 months of work, but I know I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning as I really didn’t know what I was doing.

Is there anyone at the rescue that might be able to help you? Sometimes having a fresh set of eyes (and an impartial bonder) can really help. They may be able to give you a better idea of what to do and maybe even could help you with bonding.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, exactly, and I won’t risk their safety of course since that is always the first priority.

I actually just finished doing a very short stress session. I used the dryer first (they have a carrier that opens on top so I can easily intervene). They were fine there, they did press together a little and Maxwell was still trying to get out. Side note: he isn’t really scared of the carrier. All I have to do is put it down and he runs in every time. Luckily the problem child hates the carrier so it works out.

Second I put them in the bathtub with pee pads and hay scattered. That was not the best idea.. they can jump out so most the time I was blocking them from trying. They stayed right together though the whole time. Ruby nipped once, but not hard, and from then on I had my hand in front of her mouth a lot (not the whole time). I just think she needs to get out of the habit before they will progress.  Once when she was pressed against him I was petting her, and she purred longer and louder than I think she ever has. Do they ever chatter teeth from stress or was she really happy? That said, I was glad they got some time close together but not sure how much it made a difference overall. I only had them there 20 min, partially because it was too awkward for me to keep them from jumping out. I think just doing the carrier stress, and short sessions for now is the way to go. I agree it’s worth giving this a fair shot before swapping, I really don’t know if I can let him go but a month or two more and I’ll either have to give up bonding or swap for my sanity 😉

So their carrier should be fine in the car because of the top opening so a longer car ride is in my plans next. Also, I have a very large plastic tote that I can empty and use instead of the bathtub. I need something smallish where I can reach them, for now so that’s all I could think of.

The rescue is 2 hours away, and they don’t have a facility they keep rabbits (all foster) but they do have a large room in an office building they use to bring rabbits to meet potential owners and speed dating. I could ask if they had a day it’s empty and if I can find help maybe bring them there for a long session to try and get over the hump. Unfortunately, I don’t think they have a bonding person to give any further advice or help.  So far, your advice has definitely been the most helpful. I think a lot of online advice, understandably so, caters to the easier bonds. Most people don’t have time and resources for the hard ones so I think most advice is to try different rabbits at this point. My situation is bordering on the “keep trying” and “give up it’s not worth it” advice depending which article I read.

[DanaNM]

It sounds like the stress session went pretty well! I think continuing that for a bit is a good plan. Some people will also walk around with the buns in a laundry basket, or vacuum around them while they are in a basket. I have noticed my buns chatter their teeth from frustration or stress occasionally, Myra has done it during grooming/nail trims!

Short sessions can be a good way to break associations of fighting, especially if you are really aware of ending on a good note. That’s also what I had to do with Bunston and Bertha (my avatar buns), and then I slowly worked back up to longer dates. Doing multiple short sessions in a day can also work well if you have the time. I do recommend trying to use something else aside from your hand to block the biting! I’ve used a dust pan, and I’ve seen other people use a clip board or a mesh colander as well. If she responds to a spritz of water that may also help.

The decision on when to keep trying and when to give up is such a personal one. It’s really tricky because if you swap, there’s no guarantee it would go easier, because it could be that Ruby is just a very discerning lady and has to make extra sure her new suitor meets her standards (and who can argue with that?). Plus when you factor in settling in and pre-bonding, even an easier bond could still be a good chunk of time.

Bunston and Bertha took about 3 months and were bonded for about 6 years. When Bunston passed away, I rebonded her to a very shy bunny who I thought was submissive using the 24/7 method in about 6 days. But then that bond broke 5 months later because he decided he was not submissive and he bit her pretty badly. So then I swapped him with another bun (Moose), and bonded them over a couple weeks. Then poor Moose died suddenly about 6 months later.  🙁  Then I bonded her with Bun Jovi, who she had a really great date with, but it still took them 4 months! But then they were soooo closely bonded. Most pairings are possible, but some may not be worth the effort. Bun Jovi and Bertha were definitely worth it, and it seemed like the bonds that took me the most time were always the tightest. When Bertha passed away I rebonded Bun Jovi with Myra, and they were probably the easiest, only about 2 weeks of sessions with a 5 day marathon/cementing at the end and never any fighting, but after at least a month of pre-bonding.

In all the hard bonds I’ve done that ended up successful, my gut just told me that they were going to be happy together, even though I doubted the process many times. With the bond that broke, I never felt fully sure of whether I was doing the right thing. I can’t really say what you should do, just wanted to share what I’ve experienced and encourage you to trust your gut! Perhaps if you commit to just doing very short sessions daily for a couple weeks it will feel less overwhelming and take some of the pressure off?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks for the insights, you’ve had a lot of bonding situations! I also admire your patience and dedication. Sounds like Bunston and Bertha were similar to mine, except mine don’t start after each other immediately, it just naturally gets to a fight within the first 15 minutes.  I actually have also been using a dust pan to block her nipping/ fights. I’ve put my hand down when I don’t want to separate completely, or maybe just move her face from his belly area, and when it happened fast and I didn’t have the dust pan in hand. Agree the dust pan does do the trick when I’ve used it. I don’t think my aim or anticipation skills would work with a water spray bottle. (Her nips are hard to see coming).

I agree that they probably can be bonded, but I’m not sure I’ll have enough resources for this one (my time, new neutral spaces, patience, stress tolerance etc). One minute my gut says they will work it out and be happy, then the next it feels like she just doesn’t like Maxwell.  I wonder if she is like “you’re not Elmer, ugh” . She was so in love with him from the start (and even in my limited rabbit owning experience it was obvious).  I know what you mean about swapping, who knows she will be the same as she is towards Max,  or how she was with Elmer, or something else.  I’m sure there is somebun out there she would have better chemistry with. But I would be looking at potentially even longer and potentially more swaps to find a better match, etc.

I didn’t realize some buns would chatter teeth over stress, but since I found it odd enough to ask, It was probably stress today. Poor thing.  That said, I could do 2 short tote or carrier sessions per day based on my schedule, but I’m also worried to push Ruby too far as she does get stressed easily and like with the medication ordeal can affect her for quite a while after an incident.  I don’t even pick her up hardly at all anymore, mostly just corner her and force her in the carrier. Maybe I’ll try 2 tomorrow and see how she does. The dryer seemed to work fine, walking them in the carrier seems ok (I don’t even own a laundry basket :)) but Maxwell just tries to climb out.  I only had them on the dryer for 2 minutes, should I do longer? I’m thinking the car ride with my mom can be pushed pretty long, maybe an hour. She likes to talk which also makes Ruby more scared haha.

It really will come down to whether or not a couple weeks of stress and short small space sessions changes the dynamics. It is interesting how different bonding methods work for different buns.  Even if they don’t bond right away, getting them pushed past the point they are at would really help!

[Susanne]

Day 2 of stress bonding went ok. I did put them in the carrier together for a couple minutes last night, then today on the dryer for 5 min. They do seem to huddle together (don’t have much choice) while in the carrier together. Then I did 20 minutes in a small space. It was a storage ottoman, but again they were mostly trying to get out. I may try putting it up on the table next time.

It’s only been 2 days so it’s hard to see if this is helping. Poor Ruby was shaking today and eventually tried to nip him again multiple times. By the end he was laying with his head under her chin as she sat up.

Should we just do like 15 min on the dryer and put them back separate or keep doing this? I wonder if even the small space won’t help if she keeps nipping.

 

 

[DanaNM]

I think since you are working to break a cycle of fighting, I would probably just stick to short stressing-only sessions for a couple days, before trying to do a small space session after. OR, you could do a stress-sandwich, where you walk them around in a carrier for a few minutes, do a some minutes of no stress, then a few more minutes walking around, then end it.

You definitely want to keep an eye on them to make sure they aren’t getting TOO stressed, as you mentioned.

A car ride could be really good as well, and would give you a sense as to whether they will fight in the car or not.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Ok I will keep up stress only. That is exactly what I did last night, put them in the carrier and walked up and down the steps. It was good exercise too!  After the steps I sat them on my lap to calm down and see how they were, but they were just shaking and Ruby started leaning on the side of the carrier instead of Max :(.   I’ll do the car today and a few more days of indoor stress bonding then try a small space again. As of now I don’t think Ruby is too stressed since she is still eating normally. I hate seeing her all shaking though.

 

[Susanne]

Not much of an update but so I can help myself keep track: we did day 3 of stress bonding today. About 50 min in the car. They didnt lean together as much as I’d hoped, but they were still forced to be against each other. No fighting or nipping that I saw. At times Ruby was half on top of him trying to get out.

How many days of these carrier only sessions seems good?  Is the dryer good enough for the rest or should I try and take them for a drive since they have not fought in the carrier?

So far so good for them recovering. Both got up from afternoon nap and eating / using litter box as normal.

[DanaNM]

That’s great they did well in the car! Most buns don’t seem to get overly stressed from car travel, which is nice. I used to be so afraid of driving my buns anywhere, but after driving cross country with mine I’m a lot less worried about it! LOL

I think dryer or car is up to you. Do you think they did better in one over the other? I also think it’s up to you when to try a normal session again. I think I’d be kind of curious to see how they do in a normal date since they had that long car ride. Maybe next session do a short car or dryer ride and follow up with a short regular session?

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I’m curious too, but also scared that they will still have issues! I did another dryer session this morning and walked around with them, then had them on my lap for a bit. They seemed about the same as in the car.

Anyway, so I guess I’ll start them in the carrier next time (tonight or tomorrow), then put them in the ottoman thing and see how they do.

[DanaNM]

Sounds like a plan!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Well I tried the plan. Put them on the dryer a couple minutes, walked around then pet them in the carrier on my lap. After a few min I put them in the small area. They ignored each other, eventually when Max came close she growled and nipped a couple times again 🙁

He went and layed in a corner. I picked her up and put them side by side and started petting them. They both seemed ok with that so I continued a few minutes then eventually put them back. They were in the space 15 minutes.

I’m not sure what to do, really nothing has changed. I’m thinking do what I did today for another few days just once per day as Ruby is starting to get really stressed. I’m not feeling hopeful though 🙁

 

 

[Susanne]

I think this is day 5 with some stress bonding. Today I did the same as yesterday, one session starting on the dryer for 5 min, then down to the ottoman. This time Ruby didn’t nip. They were in there about 15 minutes without much interaction. One head war and I petted them. Then put them side by side again for pets before taking back upstairs.

I plan to do this at least a couple more days. Hopefully this gets Ruby to feel more trust. Only one per day to minimize the stress on Ruby since it usually takes her several hours after to come out and eat or anything.

[DanaNM]

No nipping is good! I don’t have much to say except I think you’re doing a great job!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks! It’s been hard and really hope the no nipping today becomes the norm. I know all my posts don’t warrant a response but trying to keep it as a detailed journal as well as for help along the way 🙂

 

[Susanne]

Day 6 of stress + small space session. It was about the same as yesterday, I was petting a lot to try and break the nipping habit. There was a half cuddle for about 10 minutes. She didn’t nip until the end, when I tried to pick up Max to get him out of the ottoman, as he moved she nipped with a growl. I put him down for a sec so it didn’t end that way, and she went again for his face (I don’t think she actually nipped him), the a couple more head lunges that I put my hand in front of and said “No”.   Once she stopped he went up to her, and I was right there just petting them, and had them sort of close and petting them, put them back in the carrier side by side and pet a little more, then took them back home.

It really still doesn’t seem like anything is different. I stop the nipping but it seems like they would act exactly as before if I let them. It’s very discouraging. I don’t like stressing them every day either, so after a couple more days I will likely just do small space and short, but it’s not feeling like it’s going to get better 🙁

[DanaNM]

I’m sorry you aren’t seeing improvements. 🙁

The only thing I can think of to try is to try a date in a completely new place, and possibly in a much larger space. Rabbits are super smell oriented, and so if the “neutral” space still smells like your house, they will not see it as completely neutral. I’ve found this seems especially important when bringing a male into a female’s house, because females tend to be more territorial. I also had bad luck with small spaces in all of my bonds, and usually made much better progress when I was in a large space. Not sure if that’s an option for you, but I would take my buns to my friend’s house and bond in her garage (this was in CA so the weather was cooperative).

All of that said though, you have certainly put in some effort and no one would blame you if you wanted to swap for a different bunny. Maxwell has had a nice “vacation” with you and a break from the shelter, and I’m sure any info you can give the shelter about him will help him get adopted.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yeah it’s hard. Well when I started in the kitchen, it’s a pretty large area and on another floor from their space, so I think it was very neutral and large enough. They didn’t do well there (they did at first but deteriorated), and it was too hard to stop the fur pulling. I like the small space because I can stop it. I don’t have an option to go anywhere else as all my friends and family have cats or dogs and/or not good spaces.  I do have another room downstairs, plus a garage (it gets too cold at night) but those aren’t places I could stay for more than a couple hours at a time. It doesn’t seem to me (although I don’t speak bunny!) to be as territorial related as trust or maybe just personality related.

It just sucks because I can get them to cuddle a little, and Ruby even grooms him a little, but now that Maxwell is tired of the nipping I don’t think he’ll groom her again. And even when he did it wasn’t good enough for her. He did the one time and I feel like it could work if she would back off.

The rescue does foster, so at least he’d be back in a foster home vs a shelter, but being attached to him and knowing he would probably be happier here is very hard. I’m probably going to do the small space for another week or so before I call it. Maybe take them to the downstairs room once.  It’s hard to not be emotional, but if I take a step back, I realize this was all done for Ruby to have company after Elmer passed, and now it’s been over 2 months with no end in sight. And I’ve seen her bond quickly and so swapping probably is the way to go.

[Susanne]

I’ve decided with the holidays coming up, it’s not a good time for me or the rescue to take the time for swapping a rabbit. I haven’t talked to them yet. Right now, I’m just swapping them part of the day, and putting them in the ottoman together for about 30 minutes most days. Nothing much has changed, Maxwell is adamantly not wanting to groom Ruby at all. He did a thing where he sniffed her forehead, jerked, then repeat. She then backed down and loafed.  I don’t let Ruby nip, though there have been a few short growl/lunge/small nip, but no fur pulled. I still think at this point if they got a bigger space she’d start lunging and fur pulling again, so just keeping this up and hope for improvement.

[DanaNM]

That makes perfect sense. I will cross my fingers and toes that they will get passed this stubborn phase during this time!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks! I don’t want to get my hopes up since they’ve been back and forth before, but the last couple days seem a little better, especially today. First, Ruby was in his enclosure earlier and for the first time didn’t poop at the fence line at all. She hadn’t been doing much marking, but this was the first day there was none. Second, I had read somewhere to stress bond them separate before the date. I didn’t really stress them, but decided to try taking them downstairs in the carrier separate. It could have been a coincidence but Ruby did run to him as soon as I put her in the ottoman with him. Today they stayed close the entire ~35 minutes,  and even though I just said Max didn’t seem to want to groom her.. he did a little today.  Ruby spend a lot of time grooming herself, they both groomed themselves while the other put their head underneath. Ruby flopped on him after about 30 min (before he groomed her).

[DanaNM]

Oooooooh! I’m not even going to say anything so as not to jinx things. LOL

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

So far nothing jinxed! I’m still only doing 30-50 min in the small ottoman. It seems like they are improving at a snails pace.. Maxwell has groomed Ruby 3 out of the last 4 sessions I believe, and he will for a pretty long time. She doesn’t groom him much, but there is a little cuddling too.  Yesterday after he groomed her a long time she still growled and lunged once as he hopped away, but no hair pulled and she stopped before I had to intervene. I have backed off the petting too. Today I took Ruby for a checkup and decided to take Maxwell too by myself. They did fine in the carrier and had a normal session when we got back. Ruby was still shaken up by the trip but she didn’t growl once.

I’m scared to move to the next step too fast.. I’m so worried if we go back to the kitchen she will go after him again, etc :/  I hope after another week or so in the ottoman I feel more comfortable.

[DanaNM]

That is sounding like a huge improvement! I would just keep doing exactly what you have been! I think you’ll have a good sense of when they are ready for the next step. No harm in taking things slowly. I’d probably increase the length of sessions before moving to a new spot.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I was thinking the same, though they get restless in the small space after a while so may not be able to increase to more than an hour, maybe hour and a half.  I do agree since it seems to be working just keep it up and feel out when they are ready to move on!

[DanaNM]

I gotcha! This was always the problem I had with bathtub bonding. You may also decide to start the session in the ottoman and them move them to the new space when you’re ready to try the new area.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

That’s a good idea.  It’s just hard to know if Ruby is acting different in the ottoman because she is nervous there, so I hope I get the timing right or at some point she will just like him enough where a new space won’t set them back (at least not for long). I’ve been thinking about where to go after the ottoman. I could move the dining room table and set up one xpen (that’s all I have right now) with puppy pads, or go back to the kitchen, etc. I’ll keep you posted, I think it will be another week at least until they ready to move!

[DanaNM]

I remember Sirius&Luna had good luck bonding ON her dining room table. I tried it once and my buns just tried to jump off (and one almost succeeded), so that was a no-go for me, but might be worth trying!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Oh wow, well I think at least Max would try and jump off 🙂 I do have the ottoman on the table so they don’t jump out which works.

The dynamic was a little off today, because Ruby growled and chased early on. I know it’s bad but I’ve let her hump his head some lately in desperation ( he has never been aggressive towards her except those couple times she chased and bit him). Today she was really into it. It calmed her down and there was mostly self grooming, eating hay, and a little face cuddles. It was an hour and a half so the longest in a while. Overall I think it’s good she isn’t really biting anymore when she chases, and they can still get along after she is a bully.  I do like the idea of going from the ottoman somewhere else, even if the next space is just a short time.

[Susanne]

Here are a couple pics from today and a shot of the space. Ruby laid down and pretty much stuck her bum in Max’s face at one point, haha.

<p style=”text-align: center;”></p>

[DanaNM]

Their body language looks good!

I agree that the new dynamic is definitely an improvement. A pattern that I’ve seen with my own rabbits (in the tougher bonds), is there will be a phase where one rabbit is still kind of acting like a bully but stops actually biting. This goes on for a bit, and as long as the other rabbit isn’t fighting back (which it doesn’t sound like Maxwell is at all), then eventually the “bully” rabbit realizes the other bun isn’t going to challenge them and then things finally click.

I’ll admit I’ve occasionally allowed a wee bit of face humping too, but only once I have a good sense that the humped rabbit isn’t going to attack. So I think your instinct of letting her get it out of her system is a good one.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yeah, and some days are a little different than others still (like yesterday she was doing a lot more pushing for dominance vs some days she mostly cleans herself and is more laid back), but like you said, not biting anymore has them in a new phase it feels like… just wish they’d get past it already, haha. It definitely helped her to get the humping out of her system, and he didn’t seem bothered at all. Maybe a little confused. A couple times she would just stay on top of him for a long time, I’m not sure if she liked being close to him or just making sure he knew he was hers!

[Wick & Fable]

Things seem to be progressing positively!

Also, I want to add that the use of a giant ottoman as a bonding space is… ingenious.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Susanne]

Thanks Wick & Fable! The bathtub was too small, but I wanted a space where I could be out of it and still reach them. I turned and saw the ottoman and the light bulb went off haha. It has become a permanent fixture on my dining room table. The things we do and come up with for our buns!

I do hope it’s progressing positively, some days I’m not so sure.. but I do know they are better now than when we were at a “low”.  One random funny thing, Ruby does the one ear up bunicorn look often, and she even did it while showing Maxwell who is boss.. A short clip is in the link that should be accessible. 🙂

https://photos.app.goo.gl/rNjeYLR59qmvboUq6

 

[Susanne]

Two more sessions down! The one yesterday had me pretty bummed out. Ruby did a lot of chasing/grunt / nip (no hard nipping or Maxwell fighting back though), and caused Maxwell to back off and they mostly ignored each other between the “tiffs”. It was disappointing especially since early in the session Maxwell already was grooming Ruby, he let her hump him, but that apparently wasn’t good enough for her :/  I tried to increase the time and we made it an hour and a half or so. I guess the good thing was Ruby was eating more in the session than normal (she normally doesn’t eat, but last couple she has munched more hay). I took a bunch of video too, and I re-watched frame by frame and it did seem like Ruby was less aggressive in the lunging than she used to be. I felt a little better because it didn’t seem as bad re-watching than it seemed in person. She either stopped on her own, or stopped when I got up from my chair.

It was also confusing because I took Maxwell down to the living room for a bit last night and she seemed happy when he got back.

So then today it started off where we ended yesterday… Ruby lunged almost immediately, but again seemed even less charged.  I think she did a couple times early on. A lot of cleaning herself as usual.  At one point though, she went over towards him and in a usual situation where she would lunge, but she just sat and relaxed. He then tried to warm up to her, as he often does, maybe for grooms or maybe just for snuggles, but he very slowly got closer and she slowly gave in, haha. They ended up laying together, nicely cuddled eventually. Overall they were close about 20 min, but in the last 5 or 10 Ruby really relaxed (flopped), and purred. I really hope this time they continue to get closer, not just a one off that happens once a week! I actually ended it pretty early this time (40 min) because once Ruby got up I thought it would be a good memory to have of just cuddling until going home.

I think I’ll try my downstairs room this weekend. It’s scary to have them in a space where she could pull fur again, but she seems more reactive to me saying “no” now.. so I think we need to try it and see.  I do have a question. There is a rug down there, it used to be in a room her and Elmer ran around in (not home base) in my old place. It’s been over a year, do you think I need to remove it and find something else to put down? Or would the scent be faint enough by now?

I might clip and link some videos to get more inputs soon as well.

[DanaNM]

Oooh the slowly scooting closer to cuddle is really good! And I agree, her backing off with less and less intervention is really good too. Eating means she’s getting more relaxed around him, all good things.

Hmmm, as for the rug, it’s hard to say, but my hunch would be it would still smell familiar. I would prob remove it, or try covering it with a tarp so the smell is blocked.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I’m glad it sounds good to you, I keep questioning if we are making any real progress or just getting good days because they are tired or something 🙂 It all blurs together and hard to tell at times what has changed and what is still just back and forth.

Thanks, I’ll try and figure something out for the floor. I think the laminate alone would be too slick.

[DanaNM]

That’s the nice thing about keep a record here, it can be hard to tell if any progress is being made sometimes!

sometimes slippery floors are a good thing… they can make them less likely to chase!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Looking at the history, I think the best progress has been the ottoman without stressing first. Things have still been back and forth, but it’s been more common the last ~7 days or so to get a little cuddling and grooming. And of course the hard nipping hasn’t happened in a while now.

Maxwell seems to get stressed on the slick floor.. maybe I will try just for a short time and see..I don’t have much to put there since pretty much all my rugs have their scent at this point!

[Susanne]

The saga continues. We had one session in the ottoman Friday which wasn’t great. Ruby started nipping and chasing him back and forth. (after cuddling a while ). So I pet them and they did a little face cuddle, so hopefully she apologized. Still no hard nipping at least, but I was thinking maybe they are getting sick of the ottoman. We took Saturday off, then today I set up the downstairs room. I laid down a cloth shower curtain that I’ve never used, and 2 puppy pads with hay, 2 water bowls. At first I put in a tunnel but Ruby chased Max out of it and was camping there, so I took it out. They would not walk on the laminate, haha. I can use bigger blankets maybe next time.

The session was good. We seem to be on a trend of 1 good alternating with a not good though. I think they were scared there, the furnace noise and such. Unlike when we were in the larger space last time (the kitchen) they seemed to stay close together most of the time. Ruby at one point lunged, but she stopped before she got to him with her mouth open. It was pretty funny. She seemed like she might lunge or nip a couple more times, but I pet her and she stopped. Otherwise, they did cuddle, Ruby flopped on him a couple times. etc. She groomed him but he is back to refusing to groom her. She did seem to take it better today. Towards the end I pet Max and she looked jealous and ran over for pets too. Overall she was better, but as has happened before she could have just had a good day. I had them there 2 hours, and I think they spend the most time cuddling than any other session.

Not sure how to proceed, this is my last good space so I don’t want them to get used to it and fight again. Like today they were curious of the room so a bit distracted. I also can’t really marathon there unless it seems like we only need 24 hours or less in a row, I suppose I’d have to put one of them in the carrier everytime I need to go up to the restroom or eat or whatever. Maybe I’ll try for a couple more 2+hours this week and see how they do.  It doesn’t seem like everyday is necessary so seems like a few good long ones is better than more short ones?

[DanaNM]

The new room sounds like it was positive! I agree they could have just been getting bored and antsy in the ottoman.

So, you don’t necessarily need to do the 24 hour thing. My first pair I did 6-8 hr sessions in neutral until they were acting bonded. Then I did the cementing in a semi-neutral space (just started with an overnight there), separated the next morning because I had to leave, then overnight the next night. Then I think I kept them there for a couple days? Then I just opened the gate from the area we were in and let them run to their final home and had no issues.

That’s a long winded way of saying I think you can keep doing long sessions in this space and not worry too much about it not being suitable for marathoning. And yes to separating if needed, when I marathon without help I usually just separate them with an x-pen when I need to run to the restroom etc.

I think you are at a point where you are starting to build some momentum with them, so I would try to do a session every day if you can, even if they are variable lengths or variable locations.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Oh that makes me feel better, and sounds more feasible. I could see that working for them too, since I really think once we get past this phase it will go smoother. They definitely felt closer today, (but I’ve felt that before only to be disappointed!)  I will try to do something with them each day, even if only 30 min.

[Susanne]

I just did 3 hours in the downstairs room, and it went really well! There was a middle part where I was worried, and did do a soft intervention once, but overall one of the best. This was the first time there was mutual grooming! granted it took Max 3 hours, but that is OK! I don’t think they are acting bonded, and I still feel like I’m still helping them trust each other (example I coaxed them to eat closer together)., but this made me feel better. Now I have to figure out how to make that room work for longer sessions.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Wooohooo! Well done, that sounds great considering the struggle you’ve gone through. All that hard work is beginning to pay off, fingers crossed!

Mine are at a similar stage to yours at the moment, mutual grooming but still nippy and mounty. Hopefully a couple marathons over the holidays will cement their relationship

[Susanne]

Yes! It’s hard to know what causes the issues, but I’m so happy things are going better now. I was reading your post too, and did sound pretty similar.  I hope you can also make more progress over the holidays!

[Susanne]

Oh I forgot, when I was attempting a tummy massage since Max was acting off, I felt what was maybe a scratch or scab. Couldn’t help but wonder if Ruby did it but I guess that would have been over 3 weeks by now..

[DanaNM]

That’s really great that the longer date went well, and that Maxwell is feeling better!

It could have been a scab from an old fur tuft pulled in a past tiff. Their skin is so thin that sometimes a fur chunk being pulled will create a scab, even if it doesn’t bleed or look bad when it’s fresh.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

That makes perfect sense.  Thankfully they are building some better trust now. Ruby still nipped even today but still not pulling fur and a lot less often.

It’s so great that you understand the struggle,  no one I know gets it! A couple times I asked my mom to help and she says yes but later is like ” when we meet do you want to go for a walk?” And just general confusion.. 😐

[DanaNM]

Oh man, yeah unless someone has experienced bonding they really don’t get it. I think a lot of people don’t really understand how badly rabbits can hurt each other because they are so cute. All my close friends know allll about it though at this point though! LOL Especially the ones whose garage I used on a 5 day marathon with Bun Jovi and Bertha!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

For sure, so many people are shocked when I tell them how nasty rabbits will fight. I think going thru this with Ruby and Maxwell my friends are starting to understand a little, but yeah using someone’s garage is one way for them to see 🙂  We aren’t kidding when we say they need constant supervision haha.

[Susanne]

Here are some cute clips from the last couple days. I have to skip today but I should have a lot of time with them over the Xmas break!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cowUnRQcgbpF4tPs5

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LgYWRzG4rjjonUv56

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XLNpxfBZq9gh5a5y5

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mQ5Cb9hRzntvpHuj8

 

[DanaNM]

OMG they look great!! That first grooming vid is so sweet, you can see Maxwell purring. <3  And that last one with her flopped, belly facing him is really great and shows a lot of trust between them!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, they both purr quite a bit when the other grooms them 🙂  I put down another sheet and they had a lot of room yesterday. They are definitely acting happier to hang out together. Very first thing they were exploring with the new sheet on the floor, and Ruby kept running over to Max 🙂  Ruby has flopped like that with him even early on, but I think now the rest of her behavior is more consistent. They groomed each other again yesterday, and did a little cuddling, more flopping….  She chased and nipped him 2x (2 hour session), but again no fur pulled and I didn’t have to intervene. It usually takes Max a little while to want to be around her after that (I think he is still a little scared of her), but overall I think we are getting pretty close. They are getting more in sync and mirroring, they ate at the same time, etc.  I’m hoping to get some long sessions in the neutral room this weekend!

[DanaNM]

Sounds great! I loooove when suddenly they start acting like buddies 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, the last few days have been such a relief!  I believe the ottoman dates were essential to coach Ruby how to behave, but they definitely needed the bigger space to take the next step. I really think getting in a couple longer sessions will get them past the last hurdle. 🙂

 

[Bam]

Omg, they are beautiful together!

[DanaNM]

*tentative “WOOHOO!s”*

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I hope I haven’t jinxed it 😮

Thank you @Bam, I agree they are so cute together! They both love to flop too, so I am hoping for extreme cuteness at some point!

[Susanne]

Hi, we are now through 2 longer sessions, one 4 hour and one 8 hour!

There is one new concerning behavior. Ruby, maybe in defiance, will now only groom at Maxwell’s eyes, and looks very rough. He eye lids/ around his eyes were getting red and possibly pulling a little of the eyelashes out. Max would flinch here and there, but still let her. Eventually she stops and lays against him. Should I be worried or let it go for now?

Otherwise, I think they are doing very well. I’ve tried to summarize into points..:

-Nipping:  Ruby does still nip him, but it’s become very light, never pulls fur out. She does it sometimes when she wants to be where he is, or maybe just still not ready to let go of being a bully. Looks like Max is starting to realize she won’t hurt him. He still runs, but generally is getting less scared of her.

-Mounting: Ruby mounts his head periodically. She did with Elmer and is something she will likely keep doing. A couple times she actually chased him and did it, after a short chase/nip and no biting by either one, he lets her. Or, sometimes he lets her without a chase. I feel like he won’t seriously fight back.

-Sharing: Mostly they are doing things separately. Finally in the last session Ruby shared her basket and they were both chewing it.  She doesn’t chase him away from things usually, but sometimes when she comes around she goes ahead and does the “move’ nip. They did briefly eat some hay very close and are both using both puppy pads as litter boxes and seem OK. The only time she did grunt was when she lunged at him a little on the hay pad, but she had a piece of hay in her mouth so obviously not too serious..

-Mirroring: Not too much of this, but seemed like by the end of the long session they did things at the same time. They ate at the same time but mostly on separate puppy pads with hay, etc

-Grooming: Ruby did roughly on his eyes several times. In the 8 hour I think he only groomed her once for about 10 minutes.. but each session they do groom each other. They groom themselves pretty close together.

I think those are the main things. They both did binkies while together for the first time yesterday, and Maxwell flopped on her for the first time 🙂 They both flop A LOT, lol. There was plenty of purring too. Ruby also was much more comfortable with eating, drinking, pooping and peeing (before she seemed to only do minimal but now she is as usual)

With all the good things, and I haven’t been having to intervene anymore, I think I’m going to try semi neutral tomorrow assuming the eye grooming doesn’t get worse or is advised that is very negative. I’ll do one more long one in the neutral today and make sure they keep up the same dynamic as the last couple days.

[DanaNM]

That sounds great!

I would prob opt for a longer session (maybe an overnight or two, or 24 hrs) in neutral before moving to semi-neutral. They sound like they are doing really good, but with just a bit of lingering tension that I would want to see go away before moving to semi-neutral. You can also introduce a brand new or extremely clean litter box before moving to a new spot. If the litter box doesn’t cause issues, that is a great sign.

The eye thing could be a form of overgrooming (aka ‘barbering”). Some buns do it when they are a bit nervous or anxious, so hopefully that will go away. if you notice it getting too rough it’s OK to redirect her.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Well, the room downstairs wasn’t really good for doing 24 hrs, especially not more than that. They were getting good enough to step away a few minutes at a time however, and I decided I could make it work if I have to.. that said, I thought I’d try semi neutral today knowing I can always step back to neutral. You’re right there was still some tension. It was almost gone after 9 hours downstairs yesterday.

Today we started the semi neutral and I made the mistake of stepping back too soon. There was a scuffle, but I stopped it before any damage was done. I gave them a small time out and thought I’d give it one more go. Other than one small chase and little fur pull, they started to settle after another hour or 2. We are still here now, they are napping. They both got back to where they would groom and Ruby has chilled a little to being how she was in neutral. Going to stay with them a while tonight and if stays OK we’ll do more sessions here after work this week. If it seems like we need a step back I’ll take them back downstairs and try for an overnight or 2 there.

[Susanne]

Oh and agree about the eye… It wasn’t so bad to hinder the progress but a few times I went and distracted her. By the end of 9 hours in neutral she was less concentrated on his eyes and groomed more normally.

[Susanne]

Update, we are over 9 hours hanging out together in the living room (semi neutral), and they mostly slept. It’s probably the most the ever slept in a session, so I take that as positive. They cuddled some but mostly slept separate. When awake they ate near each other mostly, and did lots of hops, mini zoomies and binkies. No more issues since hour one or so. Realize Ruby will likely still have her moments but my fingers are crossed we can keep doing living room sessions until they are bonded and can go to their final space!

[DanaNM]

Sounds great! You are doing a great job!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Oh I keep forgetting details… One thing that happened twice, Ruby flopped so hard she went all the around!!

[Susanne]

Thanks! This has been so much, it’s really taken over my life, lol.  I think staying in Neutral for at least one overnight have been best, but I still hope they can bond in the living room since it’s just so much easier on me.

I ended it with them last night after 12 hours. I think this was the longest session (but I think they were napping for 6-7 hours of it). There was some playing, it appeared?? They are crazy little buns.. this was the first time having a large space with traction and they are interacting unlike anything I ever saw with Elmer.

Anyway- I guess my question now is does it seem like they can bond in this space.  After they finally woke up, Ruby tried to hump his head as usual, then try and chase him down. Just like the scuffle at the start of the session he did not let her. I went down with them until she left him alone but I think it would have been another scuffle otherwise. (I have footage of the first one, until I dropped the phone to intervene because he was starting to fight back). In the neutral space he always let her, so is this actually good to see her reaction to his rejection so it can be remedied? Or bad?

Also wondering your thoughts on their playing. Ruby was sooo bouncy, it’s like she is so happy she can’t contain it. I did get on the floor with them because it looked like they might have started to misunderstand the playing though.. but it was interesting. Not in the video, at one point she binkied over him and hit him with her legs, and they both were hilarious.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nHPgwii3wybV5qqC6

After the running around they cuddled. They also ate together and sort of shared a chew toy.

 

 

[DanaNM]

They look cute and bouncy! That video was funny! I feel like Ruby was playing, then Maxwell joined in, and then Ruby got worried he was chasing her.

I can totally see why that room makes more sense for longer sessions. Do you get the sense it was a lot worse there? When you get to the point of doing an overnight, maybe you could start out in the other space (or even the ottoman), and then move them together to that space? You could also try making the area a bit smaller and disguising it a bit by putting a blanket over the floor and some towels on the pen walls, so they can’t tell where they are as easily. Or you can just go for it an see how it goes!

I think it’s really positive they are choosing to spend time together while in the larger area. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I agree, I think Ruby didn’t trust his intentions when he started running with her! A couple times he ran around/ past her while zooming and she didn’t do anything. Once I got on the floor with them I hope she realized it was all in fun since I pet them both and nothing bad happened to her..

Yes, the room downstairs is far from everything (and 2 steep stairways down from their home and all their stuff), so not only less comfortable but also a lot more to carry up and down.  I’d say they are doing just a little worse.  Like you said, they are still choosing to spend time together, and I’d call it over half the time if not more. I still had most the day in the living room that we all felt at ease, it was just in the other room I didn’t have to intervene at all.  My gut says we could get there faster downstairs, but I’d almost prefer it take longer if it means being more comfortable, ha. I’m just feeling uncertain they can move past issues in semi neutral, but I think it’s possible. At the end of the day, I will end up trying what it takes, but I think for now I’m going to keep things the same and give it a couple more shorter sessions this week. I want to try an overnight this weekend and hopefully marathon..if the sessions in living room don’t go well I’ll start Friday downstairs and stay there at least 24 hours.  If they go well may just camp in the living room all weekend together.

[DanaNM]

I think it’s worth a shot in the more comfortable room!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Exactly, considering worst case we don’t progress and have to move back to the downstairs. I don’t see any harm to try!

We’ve been hanging out this evening and they are acting about the same as the neutral room. Mostly good, and some light nipping from Ruby.  Ruby started on his eyes again so I eventually pushed her away. They feel a little scabbed 🙁

[Susanne]

Ok so as of last night, the only difference between the living room and downstairs room is that Maxwell resists his head being mounted upstairs.  They may not cuddle as much either, but they still stay close mostly, both groom each other, etc..I put a hay tray and litter box in there yesterday and though they only used the hay tray together for a couple minutes, there was no territory issue with them. Ruby does not really take no for an answer with the head mounting, so I have to step in and stop her from going after him. I’m afraid he will fight back again like Sunday. Since he gave in downstairs (still after being chased and bullied), would that be the better place? I would hope after stepping in enough times in the living room she would stop being so persistent, but I’d also be afraid to sleep knowing it could lead to a fight..

[DanaNM]

hmm that’s a tough call. I think you’ll just have to trust your gut on the head mounting issue. It may be better to do wait to do the overnights until they are more calm in the new space.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yeah, so I did another 6 or so hours in the living room last night. It alternated between cuddling/ laying close, and relatively calm, to Ruby chasing/nipping, to Maxwell provoking her to play and them running around together. It was crazy when they were both running around so fast! How are they flopping on each other, then mean?:(

At times it got pretty rowdy.. I think I wouldn’t be able to sleep yet where we left off. Ruby got out a nice chunk of fur early on, and I had to stop things from escalating several times. He got really riled up once and tried to mount her head .. which would have been REALLY bad. It was disappointing, so I’ve decided to go back to the downstairs room. Now I worry about things clicking there, or things suddenly escalating like in the living room, ugh. If only I didn’t have to sleep…. I wouldn’t mind it taking a little longer in the living room, but really wanted to try overnight this weekend since afterwards I won’t be able to spend as much time on them. I’m going to try downstairs a little while tonight and hope they go back to being better there.

 

[DanaNM]

I think going back to the downstairs room is a good call, as annoying as it is! Sorry things weren’t going as smoothly in the more comfortable room!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I’ll survive! At least I will have a camping chair and my lap top. My biggest worry is things not progressing there, or me ruining things by moving upstairs Sunday. This is pretty much my last hope.  Saturday they were doing so well down there, I kinda wish I would have grabbed my sleeping bag and camped out then. I have a slow work day today so I think I’m going to go ahead and take them down soon so we can get in a longer day.

[DanaNM]

Bonding is almost always full of ups and downs, and I don’t think there are many things that can “ruin” a bond, aside from just letting them fight badly. So don’t stress about it!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

You’re right, I guess it’s more that I wish I knew exactly what they needed to help them work through things faster. They are like different rabbits now in the downstairs room. They were so happy upstairs but I guess that was also part of the problem. The 95% of the time they weren’t worrying me though they seemed like they were getting closer… just didn’t want to be in a place I didn’t trust them enough while I slept.

We have been downstairs for a while now, they have mostly been sleeping several feet apart, and I even dozed off on the floor with them for a couple hours. An occasional cuddle which Ruby then leaves, she seems to be avoiding him. She has still nipped some and a little chasing, but just like last time down here she isn’t quite as aggressive about it. I am not even sure she has nipped more like nudged him. Sometimes he runs before she does anything.  She nibbled his eye lids a little again and tried to mount his head, but wasn’t so bad when he ran away. That said, she did jump in the litter box with him and pee then jump out earlier. He looked terrified but stayed in. I also gave them some pellets which they have both nibbled at separately. Point being, she at least isn’t getting possessive over things. I have to skip tomorrow but think we’ll try to go as long as possible here starting Friday early afternoon.

[DanaNM]

I’m glad they calmed back down! It does sound like a case of moving to less-neutral too quickly. It’s really amazing how much of a difference location can make.

Hopefully the next long session goes well!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, probably! I just hope once we come back upstairs she will act so happy! I don’t think I’ve ever seen Ruby run around like that.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Q6byZzYhJPCzc98K9

 

[DanaNM]

Awww look at those zoomies! so cute!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks! It’s so great to see her like that with all she has been through! I have taken so many videos and pics. There are so many cute and funny ones but I don’t want to post too many.. I did find one more that I didn’t realize I had, it was just a few minutes before she did the zoomies and they seemed to start playing well (this was at the end of our 3 living room sessions.)

It looks like a bunny butt was given at the end 😆

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YUeUGDmAMWoXZpTe7

[Susanne]

Happy New Year! We started a session yesterday afternoon and they really started to click. They napped cuddled together for hours. Since then, Ruby has been much better, the occasional chase and half hearted nip but she has stopped being so aggressive. There is still the eye situation, I’m really hoping it resolves soon but I don’t think it’s too bad yet. Maxwell still is a little scared she will nip him.. she jumps in the litter box and tries to eat pellets with him but he runs away. I’m sure it won’t take long until he realizes she wants to hang out now 🙂

We did our first overnight and they are still doing well! As much as I want to leave this room, I’m thinking we’ll stay down here one more night before going back to semi – neutral. Do you think it will hurt if I take Max to his home for an hour or so while I take a shower, etc? I mean I suppose I can rough it for 2 days… I don’t have a pen to bring down to separate them.

I got one of those tunnel havens and cut in half, so my next test is putting them in the room with us, since last time I added a tunnel Ruby chased Max out.

[DanaNM]

That sounds sooo great! I definitely would try to do one more night in that space to really cement the good behaviors.

Rather than leave Ruby alone and remove Max (even though it would probably be fine….), to be safer could you just put them in separate carriers while you shower and handle whatever things you need to do? That way neither bun can claim the space.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, it almost feels too good to be true at this point! I even woke up to them cuddled like a foot from my face this morning 🙂

Ruby actually chewed through the zipper on one of the carriers but I do have a small second holder/crate thing. She will probably chew more of whatever one up is the problem. Maybe Maxwell would be less likely to claim the space and I can take her out?(I only was thinking him since he is easier to get into the carrier).  At this point I could probably just leave them, I’ve been out of the room several times and up to 10 min at a time. I am much more comfortable now. I would probably call them tentatively bonded. I totally agree though, especially with their history, I think another night in neutral would make me feel better to move them.

I put in the tunnels, and at first they played, then Ruby chewed up the duvet cover on the floor obsessively :/ Eventually she slept in one section. Maxwell was afraid to go in with her and slept near it for several hours, then finally went in with her and she didn’t chase him out.

[DanaNM]

I noticed I always felt fine leaving mine briefly alone if it was during their sleepy time of day once it got to this point, but then I’d supervise closely when they were active. So if you feel comfortable with that, that’s an option too. I think you know them well enough to go with your gut on this one.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, I did end up leaving them for a bit today when they were sleeping. Everything was fine.

So, since I put in the tunnels, the last 12 hours they haven’t really cuddled much or interacted. Still a little mutual grooming and cuddling at least. Recently was a very brief tense moment, and I only had to say stop, so not sure what to make of today. Maybe yesterday’s cuddle fest was like some acceptance thing, but now they are figuring out their dynamic. I decided to leave the tunnels so they can figure things out with more things in the room. Ruby hasn’t been nippy like before still, so my plan is the same.. stay the night with them again tonight then move to semi neutral.

[DanaNM]

I think it’s normal for things to not be 100% snuggle fest, but if you think the tunnels made things worse, don’t be afraid to remove them. You’re doing great!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

True, I thought it was weird though that they got all cuddly that day and then went back to being more distant. They seemed more active when I was attempting to sleep last night.. not sure how much sleep I got but they didn’t have any issues. This morning they’ve been good too, and I haven’t seen Ruby nip at all, so since we are almost at 48 hours I’m going to get the semi neutral area ready and move them up soon! I’m nervous about it, but I have barely slept in this room and really hope they do OK. Worst case, I can nap on the couch while they sleep in the afternoon and bring them back to the downstairs room at night.

[DanaNM]

That’s great! My pairs all have times of the day when they hang out separately, and then times when they always seem to be cuddling. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

That’s how Elmer and Ruby were, he wasn’t a big cuddler in general. The way Maxwell and Ruby were the other day was like all day.. I’d never seen Elmer do that, so it felt like they were happy to finally accept each other now they’re good, haha. Like a one day honeymoon!

We have moved upstairs. Only been 30 min or so, but they are doing better than last time here. Already a little cuddling, binky’s and flops. Ruby tried to mount his head, he ran, and she slowly chased. No nipping and she stopped quickly.  I hope I’m not speaking too soon but it’s looking promising!

[DanaNM]

Sounds very promising indeed! (Tentative woohoos!)

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Update: We have been in semi neutral for 24 hours, and they are acting completely bonded now! Yay!!  Once they go to sleep for the afternoon I plan to clean and re-arrange their final home. I think they are ready to move up there today. They typically get 2 bedrooms and a hall, so I’m thinking keep them in the one room at least for a few hours and make sure they are being good..Maybe I’ll spend the night in there with them.  I’m hoping by tomorrow I can work in a different room or let them come in my bedroom again.

[DanaNM]

OMG YAY!!! Congrats!!! I am soooo happy for you!

 

(And I agree that keeping their space a bit small in the final home is a good plan and what I would do!)

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thank you and thanks for all your help along the way!!! I did not expect this to be a 3 month journey 🙂

Their room is decent sized, but at least they won’t be roaming the hall or getting the chance to go under my futon just yet. I might let them out later tonight depending on how they do.. but so far so good! I got them back to the permanent home (removed a lot of their stuff for now) and they are still acting fine. Mostly sniffing/exploring/ chinning everything.

[Susanne]

Well I spoke too soon, they escaped from my barrier when I went out of the room, so they found more of their stuff I put in the other room and now are running back and forth together.. phew.

[DanaNM]

You did a great job with them! Hopefully everything is still going well in their final home and you can get some sleep!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

The first night together in their final home went fine! Maxwell especially is happy to have more room full time, and has been a little bit of a spaz.  They like to run up and down the hall together, although Ruby can’t always keep up!  They have 2 litter boxes but will sometimes share, they generally seem to want to be relatively close to the other. I think we are in the clear and 100% officially bonded now 🙂  Not sure I can change the topic and add “Bonded” but I was thinking about making a summary thread since it was quite the challenge. Thanks again for all the help and support! Hearing about other challenges and successes definitely kept me going at times 🙂

[Wick & Fable]

I have changed the topic title for you 🙂

What a LOVELY set-up for these newly bonded buns.
Please do feel free to edit the topic content/leave comments with a summary of your journey — these are always very helpful for future rabbit bonders.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Bam]

Thank you for sharing this journey with us! I will be embarking on a bonding journey within the next few months, and Ruby’s and Maxwell’s story is highly encouraging. Any fool could see right away that R&M make a perfect couple, but rabbits aren’t fools 😃

 

 

[GlennTheLionhead]

Congratulations Ruby and Maxwell! What a lovely pair and definitely an encouraging journey! Your journey has given me faith when trying to bond Glenn and Bella.

Hope they live hopply ever after

[Susanne]

Thanks @Wick and Fable for changing the title! I will likely do an edit and direct people to the end with a summary when I get a little more time.  Otherwise probably too much for anyone to follow.

@Bam, agree, they are too smart (or at least stubborn) for their own good! That is great to hear you are planning to bond Snoa! One thing I notice is Ruby doesn’t seem to like to groom Maxwell’s longer fur, and is a little weird about it so maybe lionheads should be saved for other lionheads, haha.. and she seemed to prefer a male slightly bigger than herself (could just be a coincidence but I read somewhere that females liked the males to be larger but who knows why some are harder to bond). I know most places say size and breed don’t matter, but I’ve come across a couple that says it does to a degree, so those are my observations of Ruby and the 2 guys she bonded with 🙂

[Susanne]

Thanks @GlennTheLionhead- I hope Bella feels well enough to bond soon and you get a happy ending as well!

[DanaNM]

CONGRATS! I am sooooo stoked for you! They look so happy together! And what a great bunny room!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ParsleyBun]

Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so happy for you! I bet you are glad you can finally stop worrying and get some sleep. 😴

They are a bun-bride and a bun-groom now. haha.

[Susanne]

Thank you!  And yes, I can finally stop stressing and all the time back I was spending on them😀

[Author]

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