Need advice for Dorian post surgery

[prince dorian the bun]

Dorian is currently in the hospital and I am anxiously waiting to  3 – 4pm when I can call for another status update. I am worried that he may not do well there all alone without Miu or us to keep him company. But at same time, I don’t have the equipment or knowledge to deal with an emergency. When he had an xray yesterday he was not in stasis yet, though he did have preliminary gas. I don’t know what is normal for buns in this situation. Any previous experiences or advice would be helpful.

[prince dorian the bun]

Luckily he pooped. Yay for poop! So I am going to pick him up and take him home. He will need a lot of care, which I am hoping I can manage. Hopefully he will recover faster in the comfort of home though.

[Bam]

Yay for poop!

I too think he’ll heal better att home. Just keep in mind that Miu might think he smells weird and be cross. Maybe first rub a towel or similar over him (lightly) and give her to smell before you let them out together?

It’s really important that he keeps warm, but lying next to Miu will ensure that.

You may have to support feed him for a bit.

 

[Wick & Fable]

While not a medical professional, you can read Dorian’s body language best! In general, having CC on hand to supplement lack of appetite is great, and making the environment as easy to navigate as possible would also be a plus. Ensuring you have proper pain med management is also important. I would also ask the operating vet about some timeline expectations and what would potentially merit a call in.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Yay for poop!

Bring Miu with you to pick him up so they can ride home together in the carrier (although at this point you may have already picked him up). Then leave them in the carrier together for 30 min or so when you get home. I’m sure they will be happy to see each other!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[prince dorian the bun]

The vet was big on they should remain separated, so he is in an xpen in living room. I  did let her say hi briefly to him as she really wanted to, but he really way to drugged up and not really up for her energy level.  She kept hopping on the box he is hiding in and startling him.

Also his medication list is out of control

Metronidazole & Enrofloxacin (2 times a day)

Laxatone 2 times a day

& critical care (3 times)

Liver supplements 1 x day

Meloxicam 1x

Famotidine 1x

I really hope I don’t mess it up as it’s a lot to keep track of. He spit out most of the Laxatone this morning,  hopefully he got something though. And he is not happy about taking critical care at all. He’s supposed to have 35ml 3xs a day, for 115 ml a day. I managed 10ml. I will try and give him it spread out over the day a bit more and see if I can get him to take more that way. He is eating a bit of hay and he ate some banana that  gave him post taking all his morning meds.

This seems like overkill on meds to me, but I don’t know what is usual. He’s also on a 72 hr. Sustained release pain med, Buprenorphine.

He hasn’t been drinking that I have seen,  though he was by his water bowl at one point. I didn’t get directions to give him water, but am thinking to add it to his next critical care feeding. Would gay tea maybe be an idea? I can’t find the recipe,  but do I  just put hay in a cup with hot water and let it steep and cool?

[DanaNM]

Poor Dorian 🙁

Hay tea would be great for him. It’s really good he’s eating a little. Here’s the link: https://binkybunny.com/forums/topic/hay-tea-for-anybunny-who-doesnt-drink-enough-especially-for-ill-or-recovering-rabbits/

When I made the hay tea for BunJovi he only liked it fresh, so I just made a little at a time.

You can definitely make the CC a bit more watery. If he isn’t eating much hay he probably won’t very thirsty. You might also try using 1 mL syringes for the CC and putting him in a loose towel burrito (more like a taco actually). When I’ve had to feed my buns that really hate being fed those things helped me a lot (I would load up the small syringes from the back using the larger syringe).

You may also ask your vet about sub-q fluids if it seems like he is getting dehydrated.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

I think it sounds good. Enrofloxacine is a broad-spectrum abx that is effective against many common bacteria that might affect rabbits. Metronidazole is for anaerobic pathogens in the intestine.

Buprenorphin is an opiod and a good pain med for rabbits post abdominal surgery. It can make the rabbit quite out of it though, which under the circumstances is to be considered normal. Unfortunately opiods slow the gut, but pain is a huge lot worse.

Laxatone is nowadays somewhat controversial for use in rabbits.

When my Vilde was prescribed a pre-filled 20 ml syringe with CC for his first meal at home after treatment for stasis I was like 😳😳😳 He was tiny, the syringe seemed huge. It turned out to be quite manageable though, after some practice. I used a big syringe that I pulled out the plunger from and filled from the wide end, others prefer a small syringe – or preferably several smaller syringes that can be pre-filled beforehand.

I dont think his meds +CC seem like overkill. I had a bun (Bam) who was put on on Bactrim + bricanyl+meloxicam +ranitidine CC.  Years later another (Vilde)  who was on Bactrim + metronidazole + metoclopramide + ranitidin + buprenorphine and meloxicam + CC. Both buns did great on the meds.

A bun that gets CC as a rule doesnt drink very much. Keep a close eye on urine output, and size, amount and quality of poop. Sparse volume of urine, esp if dark and/or smelly, and/or very dry, crumbly poop indicate dehydration..

[prince dorian the bun]

Thanks @Bam! That makes me feel better. Feeding critical care has been a big challenge.  If I can get 10ml if I am lucky.  They were struggling to get him to take it at the vets too. I am trying to go for more feedings, but also trying not to do to many as he struggles enough that I am worried about his stitches. He’s eating a little hay, he doesn’t seem to have much energy to eat more than that. He chews slowly and then takes a break and has another piece. I use the large syringe to fill up smaller ones as they seem easier to manage. He spits out a great deal and we both end up rather messy. I did try putting a little banana in the beginning to see if that would help. He ate that then went back to spitting it out. But it did get more in him.

I saw someone in a thread mentioning that they mixed it with pineapple juice. Could I try that? How worried should I be about getting him his full 115ml daily dose? I  think I maybe 30 or 40ml right now (trying to account for what I  ended up wearing)

[prince dorian the bun]

Managed another feeding, got a full 30ml, so he has had close to 60ml, if I am guessing correcsince he had spit out a lot, but at least at 50ml. He has been eating a little hay and even had several stalks of Cilantro. The problem now is no poops.  The stopped sometime after 2 – 3pm (so around 7 – 8 hrs). He has not really moved much during this time, though he has been digging his blankets in his box for past 20 min. He is not leaving the box. I am hoping he does soon and he was just sleeping, but also bit worried.

[Bam]

If he’s not had much food he wont poop much. The buprenorphin slows the gut. He needs to move and he needs more food and water. Hydratipn is very important for the gut.

Great that you’ve been able to increase the amount to 60 ml! My Vilde got about 90-100 ml/day, but he was just 1.4 kilos.

I’ve mixed CC with some baby fruit pure (baby smoothie they’re called here) it comes in many flavours. They’re all sweet, as a rule based on banana or mango or pear, but without added sugar.

Since he is weak and really needs calories, I think you could safely supplement him with some raw rolled oats (porridge oats). Rabbits tend to like rolled oats a lot, and they’re easy on the tummy.

 

 

[prince dorian the bun]

Thanks Bam. I really appreciate your messages as the vets are so vague. They are nice, but the clinic is also the only exotic pet emergency clinic for a large area so they are really busy.

Dorian started pooping again  finally,  not a lot and they are tiny. But enough I am not worried.  They started out really smushy so I  did call the vet, he said not to worry and keep up the critical care.

He didn’t eat a lot of it this morning, only 10 ml. Then bit me as he was done. I meant to try again a couple hours later, but fell asleep.  Haven’t slept more than a couple hours naps in days and it’s really starting to wear on me. He was eating some hay with Miu and ate a couple of the rolled oats I gave him. While I am typing he started eating his pellets! I will still give CC, but at least he’s getting more calories and hopefully I can phase out the CC in a day or so. Also just drank water.

Well now to go change into grubby clothes and get ready to give him his meds and see if I can’t get at least 20ml of CC in him.

(And sorry for writing a book, no one I know has much experience with bunnies. Also my way of dealing with stress I think. I am so happy this forum exists and has so many wonderful bun owners!)

[Bam]

I think it’s so great that you are “writing a book” – in order to fully understand a situation, details, and more details are of the essence.

I’m happy to hear he’s drunk some water and eaten a little! Even pellets, which for some reason often is the last food item a bun goes back to post surgery.

You’re obviously doing great with him.

[prince dorian the bun]

He is a lot better.  Though, now I really can’t get him to have his CC. Managed 3ml with his meds. He did eat all his salad last night and is eating more hay so hopefully he’s getting a good amount on his own and the bit I gave him will just be a topper. His poops are still on smaller size, but closer to his normal. He did lose a cecotrope. I am wondering if this is from too rich of food? Or just part of the process of getting his system back up.

Another new thing is Miu lunged towards him a couple times yesterday evening. The x-pen was in the way. I am not sure what it was about. Mostly she has been trying to get in and the time I let her as I was sitting next to Dorian she mainly just booped noses and then explored and tried to eat some pellets he spilled.  No nipping at any time. He had groomed her and was very happy to see her. She did sniff him at one point and seem confused. Hoping I don’t need to re-bond them. I am not not confident in leaving them alone together (him in xpen) now, though this morning there’s been no issues.

I am very worn out and the 2hr naps are not cutting it. So going to have to jury rig something and hope for the best.

[Bam]

Great that he seems a lot better and is eating more and more on his own! It’s really exactly what you want. CC is a great “topper”.

The ceco you saw is most likely due to his cecal microbiota having been a bit disturbed. This is perfectly normal post surgery. The best remedy for this is hay, water and exercise.

I think Dana can give you great advice on how to go about their “reintroduction”.  Rabbits just like cats can sometimes have conflicting emotions regarding a human or another bun. This is believed to be the reason why they can react with growling and/or lunging one second (hissing and clawing for cats) and the next second  demand pets.

 

 

[prince dorian the bun]

Thanks @Bam! I don’t see @DanaNM Note on the behavior Miu is displaying and what to do… but I am very sleep deprived, so apologies if it’s in plain sight! Maybe you meant the part about taking home from the vet? As he is home not sure.

I haven’t seen any negative behavior yet today,  but she’s been mostly hiding in a box and acting a little pouty. She barely touched lunch. She did eat hay and a treat, so not worried. (Dorian also ate a treat, it was 1/2 of an oxbow timothy hay heart) She’s not always big on greens and this lunch was mostly Dorian’s favorites which of course don’t overlap. Looking at his he hasn’t eaten the romaine which she likes. Seriously these two are such high maintenance buns.

I have given up on critical care for now, though will add it back if his poops don’t look good. He’s not quite 100% back to regular eating,  but he is close. He’s eating everything, just slowly and not quite as gung-ho about pellets.

[Bam]

Wonderful that he’s back to eating! Its just normal if he’s not yet eating quite as much as he usually does, it seems like he’s getting there!

I just meant Dana no doubt will offer great  advice as soon as she sees this and has the opportunity to write. She’s a huge lot more qualified to give advice on bonding matters than I am. I just wanted to say that the behaviors you are seeing now are quite normal and not worrisome.

Quite frankly, rabbits are high maintenance as a species. This is probably connected to their sex drive. It makes sense in terms of evolution.

 

[DanaNM]

Caring for a sick bun is soooo exhausting, and adding another in the mix is not helpful! Miu you better snap out of it!

It’s really great he’s starting to eat more on his own and is pooping more!

I wouldn’t worry too much about the lunge. It’s possible they may need a bit of work to rebond, but in the cases we’ve seen here on the forum when a bond has been disrupted due to a vet visit or illness they usually go back together much more easily than in the beginning. Swapping some soiled litter at this point probably wouldn’t hurt.

Not sure what his full care regimen is but it sounds like he’s stable enough that you could try to get a somewhat decent night’s sleep? Remember than buns need to rest too so most times you don’t need to be checking on them constantly.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[prince dorian the bun]

Now that I don’t have to feed him I can hopefully get some decent sleep.  He only has meds twice a day, though I divide the morning dose as there are so many.

I let Miu come visit him in his enclosure for a bit, heavily supervised. Dorian just flopped and she mainly shuffled about and tried to find snacks. She sniffed him a little but didn’t interact much. He eventually decided to groom her, which she put up with despite him being a little overly energetic and then he decided to try mount her. Didn’t get far as she turned and faced him. Went back to grooming and then I think she had enough and lunged. No biting it was more like dramatic NO! Though I can’t tell for sure what it all meant. He gets a little over enthusiastic sometimes and I almost think her reaction was more in response to that. I did put my hand between them, but she just went back to snuffling about when he backed away. He was very excited after and ate his hay. She has come by and is hanging out near the xpen. She wants back in, maybe for snacks but she is looking at him and sniffing too. And her ears are in happy explore mode.

I think their bond is still there, but maybe they need to sort things a little bit. But would love your opinion @DanaNM.

 

[prince dorian the bun]

Oh to add been just watching them a bit and they are doing a lot of mirroring, both washing at same time, eating and such. Miu approached Dorian a few times, and he watches her, both with happy ears. If he didn’t have stitches and still be recovering I can’t help feeling they just need a few moments. Don’t want Dorian to open his sutures though, so it will wait. He really is doing so much better though. He has been over grooming his blue elephant as proxy and now is snuggled next to him. At least that bond seems ever lasting!  😆

[DanaNM]

That sounds very positive! Just to set yourself up for success, I wouldn’t let her into his enclosure just yet. I think their re-introductions should be in a neutral spot, just to make things a bit calmer. I would hate for a scuffle in a non-neutral territory to set things back. And of course make sure he’s cleared for exercise etc so if he does mount too vigorously he doesn’t pull a suture.

But if he’s feeling well enough to mount he’s probably feeling a lot better! LOL

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[prince dorian the bun]

Oh Miu never let’s him mount,  that is a total no in her book… so I don’t think he will get far. But he’s not supposed to be running about for 10 to 14 days. He has his check in on February 5th.

[prince dorian the bun]

Miu has been hanging outside Dorian’s enclosure, occasionally rattling the bars. Dorian’s not really showing much interest in getting out, but he does watch her intently and seems happier when she’s close.  They are mirroring each other quite a bit.

The vet wanted them separate until his next vet visit (Feb 5th), but that seems so long. He is off the pain meds on the 31st, and I am tempted to let them meet then. Bad idea?

[DanaNM]

He had pretty invasive surgery, and it can take time for the internal stuff to heal. I would personally feel safest waiting until he is cleared for full exercise, just in case a scuffle breaks out in the reintroduction. But you could do pre-bonding side swaps now if you wanted!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

A girl rabbit spay needs 2 weeks to heal, so Itoo think it’s wiser to wait.

[prince dorian the bun]

thanks. I will just wait until after his check up. I am going to just have his 1 month follow-up appointment be with his regular vet and she has no issues with Miu coming along. She actually has owned bunnies and understands bonded pairs. The emergency vet though I think very capable didn’t seem like they did, and were very opposed to her coming along even to pick him up.

His liver biopsy came back fine. They said it may have just been elevated from the stasis. A bit annoyed as I had asked her if that could be the cause and she said no. I would not have done surgery if I had know that was a possibility at the time. I really feel they were overly aggressive and if anything put him at more risk. He wasn’t even in stasis when I had brought him in, X-ray just showed a little gas and no blockage with his digestion still going, just slowed. But I get it’s a focus on emergency care and they are probably looking for worst case and doing big aggressive stuff (not to mention very expensive). Still he shouldn’t be having to recover from surgery or having to be re-bonded with Miu right now. But focusing on the fact he is recovering and even did some binkies.

[jerseygirl]

Binkies! That would have done your heart good. You’ve been through the ringer!
Dorian’s recovery is sounding pretty typical with slowly increasing  appetite & odd poops etc.

One thing you could try to aid appetite further is feed him and Miu at same time where they can see each other. (If you haven’t already !) Especially since you are already seeing a lot of mirroring. It will bring back some normalcy and Miu eating should encourage Dorian to also.

Hope he is fully recovered soon!

[prince dorian the bun]

Thanks @jerseygirl!

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