More Quincy and Beulah — 3/16 FINALLY BONDED!

[Battie]

Hello again.

I’m starting a new thread because we’re in a new stage and I’m no longer losing my mind.

Quincy and Beulah no longer fight and I can let them have play time together now.  I don’t think they’re friends yet, though.  Quincy still chases Beulah and I’m not sure what his intentions are.  Rarely, Beulah seems to treat it as a game, but mostly she just tries to get away from him.  If Quincy follows Beulah into her cage she lets him, and that’s when he tries to mount her.  She’s let him a few times, but lately when she submits he bites her rump, which just annoys her and drives her off.  I have no idea what the point of this is for him, since it obviously is not endearing to her.

What can I do now to help them be friends?  Is this kind of a hands-off stage, or is there more I can do to hlep them along?

Thanks!

[mrmac]

Is the nipping hard nips or just more like nudging her bum trying to get “frisky” and mount? It seems lto me like they are just figuring out their dynamics together. Since there is no fighting that is always a positive thing.

[Deleted User]

Quincy may be doing this to show her that even though that cage was her territory, she and her territory is now his. Or, possibly, it is easiest for him to mount her when they are in a smaller space. The biting part should only be a gripping and pinching thing. It is annoying to Beulah, I’m sure, maybe when you move soon and your setup changes they will really start to relax with each other. There is not much you can do to stop them, except for closing off her cage. The behavior will usually let up over time, but may resurface whenever they find themselves very confined.

[Battie]

I don’t think they are hard nips, more slow and deliberate, if that makes sense… I’m sure they would break my skin, but through the fur it doesn’t look like it would hurt much.

I’m sure it’s at least partly territorial, but he doesn’t get mad if she’s in his cage. They both chin each other’s stuff. I hope I’m not doing the wrong thing by allowing them in each other’s space, but it seems better than shutting the doors while they’re out (they both get panicky if they can’t go “home” when they want) and as long as they’re not fighting over cages I thought it might be good for them if they got their scents mixed together.

[Battie]

Does anyone have any suggestions for helping Beulah warm up to Quincy? Even when he seems friendly she doesn’t let him get too close to her. She still thinks of him as the bully. I’m starting up with the box again but I’m not sure how helpful it will be, except that it keeps them quiet and still together.

I really need to get them to the moving in together stage. :-/

[Deleted User]

Are you still in your old place, the studio? It will be hard to house them together as your space has such territory overlaps for them. I have not moved in together any bonding rabbits in a space that was not new. If you do, you run a risk of a turf war breaking out.
It is good to do box sessions to keep up the scent transfer.
I don’t recall, but have you had them on car rides with you? The car is neutral and you might actually have positive meetings between them in your parked car, or idling. Once you move I think you will see their bond cementing.

[Battie]

No, I haven’t moved yet. I figured I couldn’t let them have the same cage, but I figured if I felt they were good together I could just rebuild the space with everything sanitized. I won’t be moving for at least a few months, if I find a new place at all. I’m just getting frustrated because with so much of my apartment covered by bunny cage and hay my health is really deteriorating despite my best efforts (not sure the new purifier is helping yet. We’ll see). Maintaining one cage with one hay rack would probably help a lot (at least with just Quincy I wasn’t nearly such a respiratory wreck). I hadn’t imagined it would take so many months to make this happen. I only did this because i thought it would be good for Quincy.

I hadn’t thought to just sit in an idle car. That could help. I’d been afraid to drive with them alone and hesitate to ask for help with something like that.

I’m going to try again with the local HRS chapter. I have not had luck getting a hold of them before, but if they could finish the process while I create a new habitat that would be perfect.

[Battie]

I took them on a very long car ride today. For most of it they were very still. Quincy was facing me but squished up the side of the carrier by Beulah, who faced the opposite direction. There was no fighting and maybe just a few “words” exchanged during the first few minutes. When I got home I put the carrier on the floor and opened the door, but they stayed squished together for a few minutes before realizing they were free.

It know I was in trouble with them, but it was still funny to see them both come out of the cage flicking their feet. After being rejected a few times by Beulah, Quincy behaved very oddly by loafing up in a corner instead of romping around. He even let me pick him up to put him in the cage, giving me several seconds before struggling! Before I went out I swapped cages so Beulah is in Quincy’s and vice versa.

Hopefully if I keep doing this it will help. I’ve been having to ask the tough question of whether we can all live together like this if they don’t bond. Truly I haven’t given up, but not only has this situation created a ton of stress for me, but I think it’s unfair to Beulah because as long as she dislikes Quincy she can’t really feel free to roam around. I feel horrible for even thinking of it, but it’s been a good eight months and I told the shelter when we began that this would not work if they don’t bond. Has anyone had to deal with something like that? 🙁

 

Edit:  Oh, this was cute.  Beulah has mostly been running away as usually, but they were both flopped about three feet from each other for a while.  Beulah slowly got up, approached Quincy, just barely touched his nose, and then turned around and bounded off before he could react.

[Deleted User]

Oh, don’t give it up now after all these months. I am still convinced that many of the delays in your rabbits’ bonding stem from territorialism. Your place, going by how you’ve described it, was never neutral enough.

Is there a friend’s or relative’s place you could take your two for an afternoon to see how they are with each other without their own cages near and home turf?

Alternatively, hold more sessions in your car, just using your car as space, no boxes or carriers, just the rabbits and you in your parked car.

[Battie]

I’m trying not to give up!

I could try to arrange something as long as my host wouldn’t be annoyed by such a thing. 🙂 I didn’t have time for a car ride tonight so I took them to the laundry room with me. The washer was shaky enough that they seemed to get snuggly again, so I set them on the dryer too. That machine was too smooth so they started to get cranky at each other.

It looks like I may not be moving after all, but I have some ideas for rearranging this place. I could try a loft bed with the bunny home below, which would free up a ton of floor space.

[Deleted User]

This could do the trick, a make-over of your floor space. if you do, please share pictures.

[Battie]

They seem much calmer around each other now and there is far less aggression from Quincy. They’ll often sit close to each other (though not necessarily facing). They were good in the car today.

Beulah still doesn’t like to be touched though. Sometimes Quincy does bite, but often he’s just sniffing or suggesting that she groom him. She’ll either hop a few steps away or flat out run. The saddest thing is when he touches her nose and she leaps over his head.

I guess I should just keep doing more of the same. I hope this is heading toward something good. Even though they’re still in seperate cages, it’s nice that they can both be out the whole time I’m home (and awake) instead of taking turns or staying cooped up when I’m too busy to watch their every move.

[Deleted User]

Can you get rid of their cages and make a pen to let them cement their bond? You could use a tarp to make new flooring and new litterboxes and just try it. A little nip or a denied grooming is quite OK. Some rabbits don’t groom each other until much time of living together. If they don’t want to fight at all, it is time to cement.

[Battie]

I do want to do that!  I thought it might be too soon to count on them share, though, so  I’m looking at my floor space to see how I can make something big enough that they both have room if I have to stick a divider in there sometimes (so 4 to 5 cubes wide would be fair, I guess).  I’m definitely building a little condo for Beulah tonight though.  She’s been staying in my travel cage, but it’s got a plastic tray over the metal cage base, which makes an explosive sound when she stomps.  Woke me up out of a dead sleep last night. :-/

 

[Deleted User]

Posted By Battie on 03/08/2010 11:12 AM

 I’m looking at my floor space to see how I can make something big enough that they both have room if I have to stick a divider in there sometimes  I’m definitely building a little condo for Beulah tonight though. 

 

no. this will make the territory wars start all over. You need to take the plunge to make them share a space completely without ever giving one of them the opportunity to claim it individually. If you think it’s too soon, then wait and keep up the sessions. If they don’t fight now you should move them in together but without dividers. You could try it at night when you’re home and then put them back into their respective cages for the day while you’re out.

[Battie]

Ah, okay.  I think I can make room for all that… Wish me luck!

[Deleted User]

You want some of that luck I used to bond mine? It really works. OK! Here, I wish it to you!

[Battie]

Thanks for the luck!

I can’t tell how well it’s going now. Beulah doesn’t like being cooped up with Quincy and when she panics there’s a little scuffle. I squirt Quincy and he stops to groom and things settle down. They’re sort of keeping their distance now (and both are flopped in opposite corners). I’m hoping Beulah will calm down once she realizes Quincy isn’t trying to pick a fight. Don’t know if I’ll go to bed with them like this, but hopefully.

[Battie]

Here’s a rough picture of the new cage.  I’d show more but I haven’t really cleaned up after the construction.   Beulah is the white and grey one and Quincy is the brown one.  I’m not so sure the hammock instead of a shelf was a good idea yet.  I’m watching it for safety issues.  Light jumps are fine but panicky jumps show potential for tangling.

I bought a new box of NICs to expand what I had.  Boy was I annoyed to open it up and find that FIFTEEN of the 23 pieces were those useless ones with the wide grids.  Had I looked at the box more carefully I’d have seen it, but in the store looked like only six were like that. :-/ 

[Deleted User]

Battie, that Qunicy is one beautiful rabbit! What nice coloring he is.

The cage size you chose will force them to interact, the initial move-in is stressful and can create a small panic. It is very important that you interpret the activities: if they seem to be in a state of mutual freeze-out, just rigid staring, it is likely a fight will ensue. If they just ignore one another and occasionally scurry away from each other, even with a tuft of fur flyimg — it is fine, keep them together. In the photo you posted I can see they are uncomfortable with the new situation and, like you said, keeping a distance. However, the good news is that they are turned toward one another and this gives me much hope that it will work out.

Well, obviously you made a decision last night to leave them together or not… how did it go?

How many litterboxes are in there?

–I wish I could get those wide square grids, I have not seen them to buy here. I kind of like them. They would make a nice top for a cage and also great hay racks… Or, you can use them to build a play tunnel in the shape of an inverted V.

[Battie]

Awww, he says thank you!

There’s just one big litterbox. I thought two might take too much space. I went to bed with them together, but woke up around 2 to the sound of a scuffle that seemed to be escalating. I moved them to separate cages, but maybe I shouldn’t have (it was a decision made half awake). But they are back together now and not doing badly.

Edit:  Food seems to be a good motivator tonight.  Earlier they were eating from the rack together.  Now Quincy is sprawled in the same position as in the photo, but Beulah is standing over him eating.  If she puts her paws down she’ll step on his head!

There’s still some nipping every now and then, but it’s much calmer and I’m feeling hopeful!

[Deleted User]

That was the right thing to do, Battie, to separate since the scuffle seemed to carry on/escalate. This is a good set-up now you have, their separate cages and the bonding cage. Don’t take down any of their old cages until they have lived in the bonding cage continuously for 3 full weeks. It is a good sign too that they are doing routines, such as munching in each other’s proximity. Do both use the one litterbox?

…..bonding vibes…. bonding vibes…. bonding vibes

[Battie]

Well, they spent a peaceful night together this time. I wasn’t going to do this so soon, but since they were doing so well I didn’t want to kill the momentum and decided not to separate them while I was at work. I was a little nervous about it, but I just got home and it looks like the only problem was that they ate all the hay! They were both sitting together nibbling at the scraps that fell on the ground.

I’m so proud of my babies!

[Deleted User]

you took a risk there Battie but I am excited for you that you came home to a new pair of bonding bunnies.
Pictures would be welcome. now.

[Battie]

😀

After I get things cleaned up before the weekend I’ll be sure to post some. I hope this holds together!

Edit:  I hope I didn’t sound reckless by leaving them alone today.  I wouldn’t have done it if I hadn’t seem them acting so well, really!

[Deleted User]

well, considering it has been almost a year you have been bonding these two, I would not say you are reckless…

[Deleted User]

I looked it up and see you started the dating process with Quincy last summer so it has been 7 months, anyways, that’s really patient on your part.

[Deleted User]

I forgot to add that I think you should leave Quincy and Beulah in their cage together for a few days and nights straight even though they will miss their exercise. Just to really make the bond stick.

[Battie]

Oh, haha, I just saw your post (was out for a while) and I’d let them out. That makes sense to keep them close though. I’ll give them five and then herd them back into the cage.

It’s amazing that after seven LONG months things are moving quickly now. I guess once they start trusting each other things just get better and better.

Thanks for your encouragement through all this!

[Battie]

Oh my gosh!  I know I said I didn’t want to take photos till I had a chance to clean (you can see below I didn’t even get to sweep up today) but I was so shocked I had to snap this!

Quincy was flopped over first (he really likes that corner).  Beulah came up to him and settled  down right there.  I couldn’t believe it, considering she usually treats him like he has bunny cooties!  She got up to eat while I was loading the picture but then she did it again.

 

[Monkeybun]

Yay for flops!!

[Deleted User]

I’m totally pleased with these two.

[Battie]

Haha, that’s awesome, thank you!

I think I’ll keep them cooped up one more day and then let them get their crazies out. I think they’re still working out who’s the boss but I love seeing them flop together!

[Deleted User]

I wonder who will be the boss? Yes, get the crazies out if they’re doing so well together. Don’t be too alarmed if they pluck some fur from each other while they’re figuring out who is in charge — as long as it is just a little fur it’s fine.

[Battie]

Yeah, I’m not sure at this point who it will be either. I thought it would be Quincy at first but Beulah has proved herself to be kind of a diva too. 😀

[jerseygirl]

Battie, I’ve been watching your bonding thread. So pleased you are at this stage. I have fingers crossed that you will soon have happily bonded bunnies. Well done for sticking it out this long!

[Battie]

Thanks! It’s been a rough ride so I’m so happy this is happening.

They’ve been running around free all evening. At first it looked like Beulah was avoiding him again, but when they stop to rest they either flop facing each other or right next to each other. I guess it’s sticking!

Now I’ll have to watch out for what trouble the new partners-in-crime will invent.

[Battie]

Looks like someone’s in looooooove.

 

 

[Deleted User]

whoot! yippee yay! you did it!

i want more pictures! what cool markings Quincy has…

[jerseygirl]

Oh yeah, you’re there! SWEET pictures! Seriously lovely. You deserve seeing this finally. Here’s to a smooth cement! ;o)

[Battie]

Aww, thanks.

They still seem happy. They push each other around a little (especially around food time) but I don’t see fighting. I caught Quincy licking Beulah’s ears a few times. I thought only one of the two would get groomed? Nice to see them sharing though. In all my time with Quincy, he’d never do more than lick my bed or the floor next to me.

Beulah is perky again too. When I stopped giving them separate play times and had them share the room she’d often withdraw. Now she zooms, binkies, and rolls around on the floor. 🙂

[Battie]

Just an update:

It’s been a few weeks and they’re still doing really well.  Bonded bunnies are ridiculously cute!  They seem to be good at taking care of each other, but I think Beulah is more in charge.  That actually doesn’t surprise me because she is definitely a diva, especially now that she’s lost her fear of Quincy.  She isn’t afraid of throwing her larger weight around either!

It’s so nice only having one cage taking up space (same mess though, just compacted ).  One unexpected benefit is that they seem to eat less, so I’m buying less.  They both are doing fine but when Beulah was alone she would just inhale the hay and I’d be constantly refilling the rack.  I think with another bunny she’s not as bored and finds better things to do than eat.

Thank you for helping me through this!  I’m still surprised that it worked itself out!

[usagi]

 Hi Battie,

Congrats on the bonding success!

I just saw the picture that you posted of Quincy and Beulah in the cage together – what do you have for flooring?  Is it that peel linoleum stuff?  

We have been wanting to change from rug to something a little less edible, and thought that what you were using looked perfect.  

Thanks for your help!  Your buns are beauties!

– Benna

[Battie]

Thanks!

It is linoleum, but not the peel type. I went to Lowe’s and explained what I needed flooring for, and they very kindly gave me a HUGE remnant roll of the stuff for $5. It’s also very easy to clean!

Finding something they won’t chew on is hard. I’ve only had one of them chew the linoleum once, so it’s pretty safe for mine. Your mileage may vary. I have trouble finding good soft flooring because Quincy gnaws a lot. The last iteration of this cage had shelves, which were covered with a soft litter mat. Quincy was actually eating them so I removed them, but that made the shelves slippery and unsafe. Now there are no shelves until I can think of something with traction that he won’t eat.

[mrmac]

Congrats Battie! Sorry I am a little late! They look awesome together!

[Battie]

Thanks!

They passed another test this week. We have no air yet and indoor temps were approaching 90, so we went to my parents’ house. I was worried they’d fight in a different environment (and smaller cage), but they shared nicely. We’re back home and they moved back in without forgetting how to be roommates. I can’t imagine how hard it would have been to deal with the heat if I couldn’t make them share a “hotel!”

[Author]

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