I’m Back with a Third!

[Susanne]

Hello all, I’ve missed being on this forum! I had a crazy year, and luckily my bonded pair that were so difficult to bond have been awesome.

Now, I have more space and time, so with my 2 feeling solid I decided to foster (to adopt) a third bun! I’ve already done pre-bonding and two bonding sessions. They seem to be doing really well and hopefully this works 🙂

As of now,  Ruby and the new bun (shelter name Bill) are practically bonded. It was the quickest I’ve seen! Maxwell has not been happy, and does not like Bill! Poor bill got a couple good chunks of fur ripped out above his nose but thankfully nothing to deter progress. Towards the end of the 2nd session, Ruby actually started protecting Bill from Maxwell. lol. Maxwell still laid down close to the other 2 but looked sad. He tried to lay with the 2 (he did briefly) but changed his mind.

Anyway- no questions yet but wanted to start a thread because I’m sure I will soon 🙂 Right now I’m hoping to keep doing the same and get more progress.

Thanks!!

[DanaNM]

oooh good luck!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Picture of the 3!

[Susanne]

I can post again, woo hooo!

That said, I won’t do a full detailed journal, but with my trio even though we had a good start, my original male kept biting the new guy. He would seem fine and relaxed then all of a sudden a really hard full pulling bite, and many times on the face, so it was really hard to stop. It happened pretty much every session, with varying severity. There were a lot of tornadoes and could have ended really badly without quick intervention.  Sometimes is was just a bite and nothing else. I also think I let the sessions go too long and that caused problems.  The final straw was a second shoulder bite that broke skin. I decided my new one needed a break since it had to be a ton of stress with also being in a new home and didn’t want to risk a serious injury. Thankfully, my original pair is still tightly bonded. Maxwell’s bite attempt even missed new bun (now called Snoopy) a couple times and got Ruby pretty good, and she was very forgiving. No issues with the female and Snoopy at all. Snoopy fur pulled a little but Ruby never got aggressive with him.

Fast forward 6 weeks (or more, I lost track), and they seem pretty much the same, but the major difference is that Maxwell has not been biting. They’ve been living with a shared barrier the whole time, with occasional swaps (their food and some chew toys are at the barrier). During sessions, Maxwell still lets Snoopy and Ruby cuddle/interact, he still accepts Snoopy in the same space, but does NOT want him to touch him. LOL. Now, instead of a bite Maxwell does a quick lunge, sometimes mouth open, but hasn’t actually bit down. I’ve done 2 short and one longer (7 hour) session this round.  (I also have intervened a little, said no, etc at anything that looked like possible aggression but still let them interact a little). At the end of the long one, the boys both did fake lunges when they thought the other might attack.. but then they figured out it was ok and slunk down to a loaf. They can lay about a foot apart, though this was the same last round..but it seems good that after 3 sessions there has been no fur pulled or bites at all, considering??

I get a feeling we’ll be in this stage for a while….I don’t plan to do any intense bonding as I want to enjoy my summer but if I can get them together a couple times a week I hope they slowly start trusting each other more. Meanwhile Ruby just wants to sleep and be left alone lol. She doesn’t seem to like Snoopy too much, but will sometimes give some grooms or let him lay against her. A lot of times she runs away from him and her and Maxwell cuddle while poor Snoopy lays across the room. I’m just happy she isn’t aggressive as she was when I bonded her and Maxwell.

Has anyone had a similar experience? If I can’t get them to bond, once I’m in a permanent place (rental until next August) I will likely go for 2 pairs.

[DanaNM]

That does sound like some progress! I wonder if doing sessions with just the boys would help? I considered working with just the girls with mine, and might still do that if I resume trying for the trio.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I did try that once (although in a small space not the larger room), and it went really bad! Maxwell kept going after Snoopy and I was holding him back almost the whole time while getting bit (gloves on). It seems like Ruby makes him feel more safe, and Maxwell definitely needs his space..  Also, Ruby will spend some time sleeping while those 2 are up, so they do get a little one on one even with her there. It may be something to try again later if we are at a stalemate for too long.

[Susanne]

We just finished our fourth session. Less than a minute and Maxwell bit Snoopy above the nose again, and ripped out fur. :(.  Later, Snoopy actually tried to flop almost on Ruby and Maxwells heads and Maxwell bit him hard again. Didn’t see damage but Snoopy acted hurt for a minute.

I decided to continue, I should have been more diligent. They slept a long time all separate. Eventually they were all eating on the pee pad together, and I was on top of them preventing any biting but there was sniffing.. and want looked like an attempt by Maxwell to pee on Snoopy… I scooted him away. I decided to go a little longer, and later Maxwell did go over near Snoopy, eat some of a treat, drink from the water bowl, and laid down. So I pet them both, let them relax near each other about 10 min then took them back. It was about 5.5 hours total. Not sure if it was actual progress, but at least now I’m not pushing longer like the last time around so hope that helps. Also have to remember to be on top of them any time they get close.

[DanaNM]

Ugh those face nips are so stressful! Bonnie does that to Myra. It’s can be hard to prevent without preventing any and all interaction.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, and they are full on bites. Last night looks like Maxwell got a big chunk of fur out of Snoopy through the gates. They are small grids and didn’t think they could do that much, plus it’s been over 3 months! There were small bits of fur here and there before but hadn’t seen anything in a long time. That said, yeah mine are not doing well at all, lol. I just keep doing bonding sessions to get them in the same room but I really don’t allow much interaction at all still. If Snoopy gets bit too much again I’ll probably take another break soon. My main goal in the sessions are just getting through without a bite, and hopefully they lay close together.

[DanaNM]

I wonder if you might need to try super short sessions to break this association?

Do they respond well to petting? Like, if they approach each other and you pet them, do they relax?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Here they are at the end the other day. The only good thing is despite all the bites, Snoopy hasn’t been fighting back and still wants to be friends.

 

[Susanne]

Possibly. It’s tough because the first bite yesterday was immediate, and they didn’t lay close or seem better until 5.5 hours. I don’t want to keep going once they are good because in the past Maxwell got bitey again after too long, and made it harder to end on a good note. Basically I try and wait until they seem OK, sometimes 2 hours, sometimes 5 or 6, sometimes if too short they stay on opposite sides of the room the whole time. They don’t really seem to have any kind of pattern.

I did pet them both at the end yesterday.. problem with that is Maxwell doesn’t actually like to be pet most of the time. He is a weird one!

[DanaNM]

that’s tricky. I spoke to a friend at the rescue I used to volunteer at about mine and she suggested something that is more commonly used in dogs and other animals (such as in zoos when they need to introduce a new animal into a group). They will do training sessions with the animals in the same area (starting out far away and then moving closer over time). I thought this was really interesting. My buns aren’t clicker trained but I’m thinking if we’re in this for the long haul it might be fun to give it a go. Maybe you could do some training with Maxwell to distract him from biting?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

That’s a good idea, I do think he would respond well to that. Out of my 3, Ruby I think would really enjoy some training. When I have more time, lol.

Meanwhile, I’m really glad you brought that up about the zoo training. I had a thought last night and already forgot by morning but it’s similar. I saw one Youtube person who does a lot of bonding, and takes her time with it and says she is 100% successful. One thing she does, is only do bonding sessions in the same area once all aggression is gone. If there is any aggression, she puts them in the neutral area in an xpen but a barrier between the buns… that I’m thinking I could try with just the boys. They could get more exposure to each other without the risk. At first I thought it wouldn’t be any different than sharing a barrier all day, but maybe being forced to be closer and on neutral ground could start to change the dynamic.

[Susanne]

I created a new area for the boys, and split in half. Put down some foam mats and all their stuff at the barrier. Food, water and new cat scratching pads since they both love to chew on those.  I used my large walk in closet. I’m about to finish the first session with them, and my initial thought is that it’s going to be helpful. Keeping it to 1.5 hours this time and plan to do at least a few more the same (I’ll wipe down good and swap sides each time). Maxwell didn’t try and bit through the gate, and they mirrored each other a little. Both sleeping now, Maxwell at the border and Snoopy a foot and a half away. Seems like it will get Maxwell more used to him and I’ll have to decide next steps depending how the next few sessions go. I do recommend it as an option!

[Susanne]

 I did a second session with the boys today, and had the barrier again. We stayed about 2.5 hours and was pretty uneventful. Maxwell did seem nervous, and they only sniffed noses once through the gate and there was no aggression.

It’s been about an hour and they are laying next to each other (against fence) back in their regular spaces! I’m pretty sure that is a first for them… So I think this strategy is working. I think I’ll keep doing the same and maybe increase in 30 minute increments over the next couple weeks.

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a great plan! And sounds like good progress!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Never thought I’d be so excited to see this!

[DanaNM]

Awwww!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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