Hostility — not sure where to start

[Battie]

Hello again.

It’s been well over a month since Beulah’s spay and I need to try to bring the two together.  I think this is going to be one of those tough bonds.  🙁

Even though at the shelter I thought we’d found a good match, it turns out on his own turf Quincy is more territorial than I thought and he’s outright hostile to Beulah.  Sometimes they seem okay when their on other sides of the bars.  Quincy just gets made if he can approach Beulah and she won’t like him, but other than that they seem calm and will lay in front of each other.  I wish I could seperate the cages to make things easier, but I only have one room.

Tonight, armed with water and a NIC grid, I let Quincy out during Beulah’s play time to see how they would act.  I expected some nipping, but it was terrible!  Quincy tore into Beulah making vicious sounds.  She was pinned on her side (though she fought back) while I scooped him away with the grid.  He got at her a few more times before I trapped him in a corner and got him to go into the travel kennel.  No one was injured (thank goodness for thick fur) but it almost seemed like they’d kill each other if they could.  Would they?

I’ve been looking over suggestions to fix this and I’m not sure which is the best to start with.   Neither of them knows my bathtub so it might count as a unfamiliar ground, but would that even help when they’re that crazy?  I’m also wondering if a car ride would actually do anything.

I’m going to find an old stuffed animal to be Beulah too.  That might be good if Quincy attacks it and it doesn’t fight back.  But really, I think Beulah’s going to have to give him a kiss to make him feel like he’s the boss.

What do you think?  Can crazy bunnies work things out?

[Sarita]

Can rabbits injure and kill each other – most certainly.

I would recommend that you do the bathtub and car rides. You don’t know what could happen until you actually try it.

Obviously the play area is not neutral.

In the meantime start changing their litter boxes so they can learn to tolerate each other’s smell – will that help? I don’t know but it cannot hurt.

I also don’t think you need to separate the cages – I don’t think this will make things easier.

[jerseygirl]

Bath tub is good because the slippery surface makes it easy to separate them when needed. You may prefer to put down a towel for them though – up to you. Also, the small space so you can monitor more easily.

[Deleted User]

Battie, yes, they can work things out but it is vital that you do not let an episode like the one you describe repeat itself. Every time they hurt each other it increases their grudge. More grudge means it will take more time for them to accept one another.
My feeling is that after they fought like this car ride won’t help much. Make a bathtub appointment for these two. Keep them from jumping out, after a few failed attempts of trying to jump out they will clue in that it’s not an option. Don’t let them fight in the tub. If you can get them to sit still for pettings it was worth it already. Make sure not to draw out the session beyond the good note, meaning a positive ending.

[MooBunnay]

When you are doing a tough bond, you must make sure to introduce the bunnies in a small neutral area to start. I agree that the bathtub is a good neutral area. Bunnies are always more aggressive in their own turf, which is why you need to do the bonding in an area where neither of them have been before.

The car rides that Sarita mentioned are a good idea. You will need a friend to help you get the two bunnies into a large box, or maybe a laundry basket. Then, drive them around in the car together just around the block, and you don’t have to go too fast. Just being in the car or in motion is supposed to help distract them from fighting. If they are very aggressive, you and your friend will have to carry them to the car separately.

[Battie]

Thank you for the advice. I hope this will be okay.

While Beulah was playing near Quincy’s cage, I poked a finger through the bars to give him a reassuring noserub. I guess he was distracted by Beulah because he immediately spun around, lunged, and bit me deeply. It’s very bloody and painful. I’m sure he didn’t mean to bite me specifically but it’s very upsetting to have a pet turn on you. I hope he’s not angry at me.

Edit: With the car rides, can it work to have two carriers facing each other instead of using one box?  With Quincy’s aggression I can’t imagine it’s safe to put them together, and I’d feel bad for whoever had to moderate.  At least in the tub there should be enough room for me to shove a grid between them and scoop one out.

[MarkBun]

Do you have someone to help with the bonding? You do want to have them in the same box for the bonding – the idea being that they snuggle when they’re scared. You could do something as simple as put them both into a tupperware storage container (plastic and slippery) and just hold onto the box and shake it whenever the fighting starts. One bonder did something similiar and suspended the box on bungee cords so when they began to tussle, the box began swinging so they stopped.

[jerseygirl]

Bungee Bonding ^ another technique for the guide book!

Yes Battie, you can use other stress bonding techniques like Mark mentioned, or a clothes basket on top of the washing machine.  Even a high sided cardboard box in the car that you can reach into and separate them if needed.  Wear gloves maybe.  Carriers are hard to access at the best of times.

[Beka27]

We did the laundry basket on the washing machine and it did work out to scare them just enough where they did not fight. Take it one step at a time and please don’t feel like you need to rush things. Often times, even the most difficult bonds can and do bond sooner rather than later. You need to be confident and firm and they will respond to that.

This is one of the better bonding links IMO. It is very thorough and take you thru from start to finish.

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

[Moonlight_Wolf]

I used bathtub first, then bathroom, then another partially neutral room, then their own room. It seemed to work, Also you could bring a noodle strainer to block any lunges, my bunnies did not lunge but it worked to block hump attacks (not real attacking). I didn’t have to stress bond but I think in your case you might have to. Look on the bonding info on Binky bunny, that’s where I got all of my tips.

[Beka27]

For separating (in semi-neutral territory: my bedroom) I used a small, lightweight laundry basket (like the kind you’d get at walmart or target for about 2 bucks) and if they went for each other I could (CAREFULLY!) lower the overturned basket on top of whichever one was closest to me… this separated them enough so they could see each other but not fight, and it kept my hands out of the scuffle. This way you do not need to remove a bunny from the area, you just let them cool off for a minute or two, and then take the basket away again.

[MarkBun]

Also, another way to create a neutral space in non-neutral space is to set up an exercise pen, then put a new plastic tarp into it, covering the sides as well as the bottom (imagine the exercise pen being the pie tin and the tarp being the bottom crust). This will give a new scent and without being able to see outside, the old bun won’t be 100% certain where he is – not to mention both of them not sure of that weird, slick, crinkly blue stuff under their feet.

[Battie]

Thank you again for all the suggestions! I’m afraid to ask anyone to help with the car ride because they’re probably going to get bitten, but the washing machine sounds like a good compromise (my neighbors will think I’m crazy, but oh well). That was a really helpful link too.

I feel like stressing should help because that’s what made us think the two would be a good match at the shelter. I just have to work up the guts to get going again.

[Battie]

I put them in the bathtub today and it wasn’t so scary. They were both totally unsettled by the area so there was no real fighting. Quincy was more confused than nervous, so if he got close to Beulah he would still get bitey. But it wasn’t so bad that a squirt of water or a grid between them didn’t stop it. The most encouraging part was that a few times one started to groom themselves and the other would watch and start it up too.

I got a few plushies and one of them is in Beulah’s cage soaking up her scent. I’ll see what Quincy thinks of it. If he’s fooled and starts to fight with it, how hard to I try to break it up? I figured I should squirt him at least, but should I let him duke it out and see that the plushie doesn’t fight back, or respond exactly how I would with a real bunny?

[Deleted User]

I had two buns that I bonded that would even fight in the tub so the fact yours are grooming themselves and not go for each other is really positive.
–I have never seen a rabbit fight with a plushy but if Quincy were to act aggressively toward it you could just take it away in an opportune moment.
I would do daily tub sessions. Or alternate with other stess techniques mentioned above. If they behaved this good in the tub you could try a car ride now. Have someone else be the driver so you deal with the rabbits.

edit: here’s a link worth reading

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

[MarkBun]

The main reason for a rabbit to attack another rabbit isn’t to kill it but to try and chase it out of the area. If Quincy begins to fight with the plushie, just let him wear himself out with it. When he sees that it’s not going anywhere, he will have to come to terms with it being around. AT least that’s my suggestion.

[Battie]

Hmmm… I’m not sure they’re fooled by the plushies. 🙂

Petzy – I’m glad to hear you bonded two fighting rabbits! Makes me feel better about my two.

Tonight Beulah seemed very nervous around Quincy, but she’d still groom herself. He didn’t help because he’d approach her in a way that almost seemed friendly, but would still get bitey when she didn’t lick him. He also flopped facing her a few times. Is there a way to tell if that’s a friendly flop or an insult flop? He stretched out with his head up and his ears forward, exactly how he looks when he’s relaxing on his own. I could tell he was making eye contact with Beulah, but at that point she wasn’t having it. She was immobile and kept her up-ear slanted back. (I don’t know how to read the floppy ear. I wonder if it would have been facing forward or back in full angry mode?)

[Deleted User]

Posted By Battie on 10/13/2009 05:48 PM
Hmmm… I’m not sure they’re fooled by the plushies. 🙂

Petzy – I’m glad to hear you bonded two fighting rabbits! Makes me feel better about my two.

Tonight Beulah seemed very nervous around Quincy, but she’d still groom herself. He didn’t help because he’d approach her in a way that almost seemed friendly, but would still get bitey when she didn’t lick him. He also flopped facing her a few times. Is there a way to tell if that’s a friendly flop or an insult flop? He stretched out with his head up and his ears forward, exactly how he looks when he’s relaxing on his own. I could tell he was making eye contact with Beulah, but at that point she wasn’t having it. She was immobile and kept her up-ear slanted back. (I don’t know how to read the floppy ear. I wonder if it would have been facing forward or back in full angry mode?)

 

This sounds good to me. Nervousness can be a part of the bonding. It tells you that this is the reason for her biting, she does it out of fear. Quincy is curious about her, another step forward! I have not had flops during any of my bonds. I would have wanted them though. Quincy’s flop might have been an “I will ignore you” flop, but ignoring is positive because it is a form of tolerance. The forward ears are most likely his way of keeping his radar up. A lop’s slanted-back ears I saw for weeks and weeks in one bonding process. I believe it is the lop’s way of showing they’re uncomfortable/stressed/on guard. Her tail would tell you if she was going for a bite. It would be raised. Try keeping her calm with words and pettings to reassure her.

Here are two rabbits I bonded that had a very bad grudge and were beginning to work things out in this stage. You can see they are semi-relaxed. The agouti bun has his ears forward, he was the aggressor. The little lop was afraid of him but always bit back when given the chance. Here he is huddled which for me was huge progress because neither of them made a move.

[Beka27]

Petzy… are those the smallest rabbits ever or is that the largest litterbox ever?

[Deleted User]

LOL, Beka! you missed my quartett bonding.. those two were the trouble buns and I resorted to using a sand table! haha!

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