Help my bunny ate Lino

[Jay]

Hi all I’m new to this site. My bun pippin has eaten some Lino I hadn’t spotted she’d done this but spotted her licking the concrete grate round the wood burner I thought it was a strange behaviour as she hadn’t done this before, I then notice she’s not eating, pooping or passing water. I instantly went into overdrive to get her unblocked with critical care and syringing water down her, it didn’t go well as she protested to my actions, since all this she’s eaten wet dark greens and lapping at water (won’t use her water bottle for some reason) we’re now on day 4 and in two days she’s passed about 8-10 poops in two clusters ( not cecotrophes) they were clung together by a mucus ? This is why I’m confused ? Is the mucus due to inflammation in her tummy due to the Lino ? Or due to a deficiency ( thinking that because of the licking concrete) she is not herself but moving about a little oh and has passed two tiny amounts of wee. Is there anything else I should be doing ? Our vets are not seeing patients at the moment any advice I would be most grateful for. Thank you 

[Bam]

Your rabbit needs vet care. If that is absolutely unattainable, you will have to keep doing what you are doing and hope for the best. Fluid is important for gut motility. With so few poops, there is a gut slowdown. A partial blockage can’t be ruled out without x-rays. Mucus can mean there’s inflammation of the gut lining or an overgrowth of the wrong types of bacteria. It is very important that you keep your bun warm. Poorly rabbits can get hypothermia, which means they are starting to go into shock, which is lethal if not rapidly intervened against.

She needs food in her tummy, so syringe-feeding critical care is of need. When a rabbit protests again syringe feeding, it’s a good sign, because it means the bun still has strength. Its not fun, but you still have to try and get CC in her. Some buns will eat it voluntarily if you mix it with sth good, for example canned plain pumpkin or baby fruit puree. Give small portions with 3-4 hours in between.

This is a very good article about gut stasis in rabbits:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

 

[Hazel]

Agree with Bam, she needs a vet. She should get motility meds, if her gut doesn’t start moving again all the food you’re syringe feeding her has nowhere to go and can end up making things worse. Before motility meds can be given, they have to rule out a blockage. She also needs pain meds and hydration.

[Jay]

Update on Pippin, she’s still weak and poorly and along with your advice and the vets via telephone (I live in Wales UK it’s quiet remote and the vet will not see her) i’m CC feeding her every 3 hours and we are getting output, albeit very small also fluids but I’m not just filling her little body up with nothing coming out. I’ll be with her round the clock and just keep doing my very very best to get her through this. Regarding keeping her warm I’ve moved her bed ( she’s not a caged bunny) to my bedroom and she is at present lay on my bed with me, her breathing is not quiet right and she seems worn out but better to be in my room with me. She was a twin and we lost her sister only 4 weeks ago which I think is what accounts for the eating of the Lino etc, she is 9.5 years of age and I aim to get her through this with all my heart.  I will keep you both posted.

[Bam]

Oh, great job! I’m glad you are seeing some poop, and its great that she can be in your room!

A poorly rabbit can still get cold even if the ambient temperature is not low, so she might benefit from a warm water bottle. She must have the choice of whether she wants to lie near it of course, because you dont want her to get too hot.

When there is no vet to be had, we must do what we can ourselves. I’m sorry she lost her twin, that could very well have been the stressor that led up to this, but she does have a human who evidently loves her very much.

 

 

[Hazel]

It might be a good idea to give her some Simethicone (baby gas drops) as well, just in case there’s any gas trapped that’s slowing things down or causing her pain. It won’t do any harm, and if nothing else it will at least provide some lubrication and hopefully help things move along.

Good luck, you’re doing all you can. Please keep us updated.

[pinkiemarie]

Was the vet able to remotely prescribe some kind of motility med like cisapride?

[Jay]

If you mean colic drops for babies I have some of that, I can see she’s in discomfort by her breathing and hoping on and off her loo not always having a successful time, the last few poops were slightly bigger, she does have the option of been under covers with me or on top as she keeps alternating…I’ve been sat singing to her ‘you’ve got a friend in me’ was a song I sang to her and her twin (Merri & pippin) I feel if I can get her through tonight with what we’ve got then we’ll get through the weekend it’s just about coming up to 12am here but no plans on leaving her…I 🙏🏻 we get through tonight, I’m not sure if I’m meant to see her pass any of these bits of Lino she’s ate ? If so I haven’t but keep seeing her almost like dry heaving, her little body heaving but nothing coming…she has to make it xx

[Jay]

No the vets are also under lockdown so we’re all stuck, the vet has told me to call him Monday if Pippin has made it and he may well be able to drop something at my doorstep ☹️

[pinkiemarie]

I don’t thinks the colic drops are the same as simethicone or not, but I’m in the US so I may be speaking another language 😉 We have baby simethicone also called baby gas drops or baby gas medicine. Read the label on your drops and if it says simethicone then it is the same thing. Hopefully they can get you some motility meds.

[Hazel]

Not sure about the colic drops, but as pinkiemarie said, you want the active ingredient to be Simethicone.

You might not see any of the pieces in her poo, rabbits usually chew things up very well before swallowing.

[Jay]

She’s still with me ladies but breathing not good, it’s 6.30am where she usually is quiet bouncy & binkying, I remember I have some bunny meds in the fridge from what I had for her twin sister, my grandsons gone to fetch them for me so I can read up on exactly what its used to treat or I may bring the name of them to you if I have no luck I’m really hoping it’s something I can give her to help her. There is again output again very small and hard and weeing going on.  Oh and the colic drops does not have Simethicone in, I’m in isolation ( due to Copd) so again once chemist open my grandson will fetch our version of baby gas drops thank you all for helping me.

[Jay]

The name of the rabbit drug I had for pippins sister is sulfatrim although reading up on it I’m not sure why they gave it me for her. Does anyone know if this will help pippin ? I’ve read so many contradicting things about it so won’t give it her until I know it’s safe to. I’m about to get some water into her and check her litter tray again.

[DanaNM]

I’m very sorry she isn’t doing well. 🙁 Sulfatrim is an antibiotic, I would not give it as it will not likely help her situation and could make things worse.

I think the best thing you can do in this case is continue to provide supportive care (fluids and keeping her warm), I hope you can get her to the vet soon.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

I’m sorry she’s still unwell, but I’m glad she made it through the night. Not sure about the UK, but in the US the Simethicone is over the counter.

It’s crazy that the vet doesn’t even offer emergency services. 🙁

[Bam]

I’m very sorry sheisnt doing well. Sulfatrim is an antibiotic that’s often prescribed for airway infections. As all antibiorics it can have some negative effects on the tummy.

Infacol is a brand of simeticone baby gas drops that is sold OTC in England, but I dont know about Wales.

[Jay]

UPDATE ON PIPPIN

she’s not doing well and I’m breaking my heart for her she’s slowed right down and gets into such a terrible state when I’m trying to syringe fluids into her I’m finding very little hard pieces of poop but just stuck to her. I live in a very small village in a valley and we all rely on two vets neither of which will see her as I’ve said one has said to call him Monday if Pippin gets to Monday and he will drop something off on my doorstep. Pippin is getting herself so worked up while I’m trying to get fluids down her and ends up gasping, I’m about to try again 😢

[Moonlightbunny66]

Would it be okay to put some mushed banana on the mouth piece of the syringe? I did that with my bunny and when he would nibble the banana I would squeeze a bit of the medicine into his mouth. Maybe that will help. I hope she feels better soon. 💜

[Bam]

When a bun is fighting meds and syringed food, it is generally a good sign. It means there is some strenght.

The breathing difficulties are very worrisome. Is her tummy hard and distended?

Keep up the supportive measures as best you can.

 

[Jay]

UPDATE ON PIPPIN

I really don’t know how she/we are doing this but there’s been a change, she’s back eating her wet greens albeit in little bits and some bits of hay, I changed the syringe to a small med one which without having to huddle her up she’s taking from me, And the odd lap of water from her bowl…breathing much better still very little poops but more wee’s.  In fact she’s at present gone for a little nose round my bedroom even out the door and popped her head in my grandsons room, I’m scared to feel optimistic but quietly am I’ve got everything crossed. Between me and my 15 year old grandson we are going to do shifts tonight so I can get some sleep ( can’t see it happening but I’ll try) what a hardy little thing she is.

Back story to pippin….I took on rescue buns and Pips mummy was my 6th rescue and all I was going to have but after 6 days of having her mummy (pic in my photos she’s a beautiful lionhead and now 13+ yrs of age ( maybe Pip gets her hardyness from her mummy) she gave birth to 6 babies, what a surprise, a beautiful one but oh 12 bunnies my indoor conservatory became a bunny haven but I’ve lost a lot of them due to age. I only have Keisha ( pips mum ) and Pipppin. I have given pippin strict orders that she has to make it. I fetched her mum up today to have words and I think it was Keisha eating hay that encouraged Pip to.

[Jay]

Oh sorry her tummy feels soft

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a huge improvement! Way to go! Keep up the supportive care!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jay]

Sorry for add on’s should I keep her mum up here with her ? They were together downstairs ( all of Keishas babies stayed with her) I brought up here alone for peace and to do all I could for her and not get mixed up with who’s doing what in the litter tray xx

[Hazel]

Whichever you feel is less stressful for her. If she’s content on her own, I would keep it that way so it’s easier to monitor her output.

I’m so glad she’s feeling a little better, I’m guessing things have started to move along in there and it gave her some relief. 😀  Keep doing what you’re doing!

[Jay]

I’m so happy I can’t sleep ( it’s 2.45) I know we’re not through it yet but she’s just taken water and cc out of a spoon I offered her she seems a little more herself it will be about 5.45 I’ll offer her cc again and more fluids although she’s nibbling wet-ish hay a wet greens no where near enough I just want to see a good output of poops. She’s quiet happy to let me gentle check her tummy softness and happy to say it is…her mummy has gone back to her bed because she was eating all available etc and would of made it hard for me to know who had eaten what and who had done what poops…

[Hazel]

Yay, that’s great! Sounds like she’s on the mend. Well done! 😀

[Jay]

UPDATE ON PIPPIN

Shes still with us and at present munching on wet dandelions, I’m still very worried about her poop output as it’s still a very small amount and little tiny pieces I did however manage to break one into two so there must be some softness coming just wish she would do more. Her breathing seems different as if it’s not such hard work. I’m so glad I found this wonderful binkybunny site as I’ve aged I seem to of forgotten more than I remember.  Will persevere and keep all you lovely helpful people updated. Thank you all so much.

[pinkiemarie]

At this point any poops at all are a good sign. She’s so lucky to have you! Keep her eating anything you can get her to take and I’m hoping for another update soon with more poops in it 🙂

[Bam]

Yes I agree, there’s still not much in the intestines due to her having eaten so comparatively little lately, so any poop she produces is great. If she keeps eating, there will be more poop, but it can take up to 2 weeks until the poop is back to normal after a bout like this.

She is very lucky to have you!

 

[DanaNM]

That’s such wonderful news! Eating more will start pushing things through. Dandelions are very good for the gut, so that’s a great thing for her to eat. Keep it up!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jay]

I’m just not thinking straight I’m expecting to find a heap of poops but of course there’s not been that much input, I wish I’d remembered dandelions would of helped because she’s eaten so many and giving me attitude when I offer her syringes full of water etc ☺️ I love her little attitude coming back. So when should I expect her to want to eat normally and have normally poop outputs ? Plenty of wee’s now…..being a little territorial she’s even nudging my hand out of her litter tray digging around for poops, they are still tiny but some softer than others, do you think she’s going to get through this now after so many days/nights like this ? She’ll still happily drink from a syringe as if it’s a water bottle but promptly nudges it out the way when she’s had enough. I kept a big bowl of dandelions soaking in water and kept topping up her food bowl with them and she popped out and was lapping at the water they were soaking in so have been giving her the water out of there too. Her breathing seems ok, lost a lot of weight, soft tummy but just hardly any poops ☹️ Still feeling optimistic, I think…

[DanaNM]

It can take quite a bit of time for the gut to come back online (think of it as like jump starting a train). Keep pushing water, high fiber foods, any greens she will eat, and hay especially.

So glad to hear she has perked up and her attitude is coming back!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

It’s not uncommon that recovery from a bad bout of stasis is long and slow. It took more than a month for my bun to come  back from stasis last fall. It was a very slow and nerve racking process, but definitely worth it.

[Jay]

UPDAYE ON PIPPIN

Shes still with us and there is some good news as well as not so good. Firstly I apologise I didn’t update you all last night, my son came and gave me a night off to sleep and sleep I did I knew she was in good hands and I’d left a list as to what to give her and when. she had not such a good day yesterday and was fighting just about everything she had on offer ( fluids, cc and wet greens as well as dandelions) it was like she’d took 2 steps forward and 3 back but today I was adamant with her little attitude and all that she was having her fluids and cc but she didn’t nibble on any greens so I blended them and mixed them with her cc, well she’s huffed and puffed and nearly blew the house down throwing syringes at me but I know from what you’ve told me that this fighting spirit is good, she’s sulked and moved herself onto the landing and scuttled off when she saw me coming with the syringe but I’ve got lots down her and although not right the poop she is out putting is wet so is that a good sign ? I know they normally are not wet or sticky but this is the stage she’s at. On Wednesday the vet is dropping off metoclopramide ? Is that for motility ? If not I’d like to know what it is if anyone knows please ? She’s always had a little attitude but think that’s because she had her twin sister and they looked after each other so well…it’s actually comical when she snatches the end of the syringe and throws it at me. I know some won’t agree but she ate half a grape too today. I’ve a feeling this will take a while but the vet was surprised she was still with me he’s not rabbit savvy at all more cattle etc because it’s all about sheep and cattle where I live. I don’t like the noises she makes when I’m making her take fluids etc she sounds like a Guinea pig squealing a fighter for sure….

 

[Bam]

Thank you for the update, I have been thinking about you!

The squealing is of course not good, rabbits should  as you know, not squeal, although some individuals can be rather vocal. All rabbits can scream, which means mortal fear (a defense mechanism that have probably served the species well, since it can startle a predator enough to let go of the rabbit). I had a rabbit that screamed once when I was picking him up to syringe feed him, he was eventually fine though. I spoke to my vet about this. Stress is bad for rabbits, but not having food in the tummy is worse.

Attitude is as previously mentioned, very good. Rabbits should have a certain amount of attitude, which is known as bunnitude. The opposite of attitude is lethargy or fearful “paralysis”, both of which are really bad.

Wet stools are differentiated from true diarrhea if there are some formed poop as well. Her tummy is in uproar right now, and it will take time to repair the microbial balance. There are probiotics suitable for rabbits (benebac, symbiotic d-c, bio lapis and several other brands).

Metoclopramide is a gut stimulant. It’s the best gut stimulant currently available for rabbits.

I would personally think it would be great if she could have a painkiller and an antacid too, though. Meloxicam for pain and and famotidine or sucralfate to protect the stomach lining and prevent ulceration (unless your vet happens to have some zantac (ranitidine), because that’s the best stomach protectant for rabbits- sadly it’s been withdrawn since last year). Rabbits are very sensitive to pain, even moderate pain.

Rabbits are a lot like horses in many respects, especially digestion-wise.

[Jay]

Thank you Bam. I have heard a rabbit scream just before he died it was an horrific scream ( this was another rescue bun that had had his throat cut and stabbed several times and left for dead in a bag outside ‘pets at home’ store, he survived all his surgery and eventually I adopted him but not long after he had a heart attack they think it was the trauma of all he’d been through) it’s not that kind of scream/noise that pippin is making its more softer squeaks when I gentle pick her up to feed. Things are not looking good today she’s not wanting anything food wise or fluids so it’s a battle getting things down her she gets into such a pickle that she’s worn out after…I have got some bunny  probiotics which I’ll add to her water (I’m just not thinking straight at all) and I got the infacol, there are more formed poops but still some sticky/wet ones and more output than we’ve been having I will call the vets back and ask if he can drop her some pain meds as well as the metoclopromide the vet doesn’t seem overly bothered to me but she’s my baby so will persevere with her she looks so sad today and just plain old worn out even her favourite herbs didn’t tempt her today normally just the smell of them gets her excited 😟 Thank you so much.

[DanaNM]

I completely agree that pain meds would be great. Sometimes buns can recover from stasis with just pain meds, fluids, and syringe feeding. The pain meds help them keep fighting (and pain can actually cause the gut to slow down even more).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jay]

The probiotics I have are called: PRO-C probiotic for rabbits….Brand: VETARC It says on the tub ‘friendly bacteria with vitamin c and dextrose for digestive support’

it’s time for her next cc. I hate upsetting her and long for the meds to arrive tomorrow. not been much change in her this afternoon 😔 I’m beginning to lose hope she’s lost so much weight.

[Bam]

I know a person who used the PRO-C probiotics for her bun when he had been injured and needed nursing back to health. It has brewer’s yeast, which occurs naturally in the healthy rabbit gut. You can mix it with the CC.

There could be something wrong with her that the gut stasis is only a symptom of. The stasis is however what needs to be adressed first of all, since it is in itself a life-threatening condition. Treating her for that is pretty much what you can do at home.

You are being a wonderful owner to her. I know this is very stressful. My bun was very sick a year ago, I thought I was going to lose him.

[Jay]

Hi again sorry about all the questions but can someone please advise me how much and how often I should be giving cc to Pip please, now she’s stopped eating her greens etc I was thinking she should have more ? Just had a successful feed with cc and fluids and she seems to be a bit more settled with me doing it now and proper munched up the cc…I had to have a word with myself as I was anxious and I don’t think that’s been helping. With my age and illnesses I have forgotten a lot hadn’t even remembered I’d got the pro biotic in, I was a lot more relaxed and so was Pippin.

[Jay]

I’m sorry Bam I hadn’t seen your last post until now, fingers crossed the Pro-c helps then. That hadn’t crossed my mind that it could be something else and won’t know what to do if the vet isn’t see any patients. Totally agree on how stressful it is I’ve been keeping a close eye on her since she lost her sister she seemed to of be being her normal self hopping up on the sofa and looks like she’s watching tv or maybe just the colours, she’s only a small bun and had taken 4 mouthfuls of the Lino I can see the teeth marks and licking the concrete grating seemed strange. Oh when I was feeding her I could hear her tummy making a few gurgling sounds which I’ve been listening for. I don’t understand why the vet gave her sister that antibiotic when I told him she seemed not her self. He put it down to her age but dropped that antibiotic off for her she only had 3 doses before she died in my arms that was so sad to see Pippin nudging her to wake up

[Bam]

I’m sorry her sister died. It’s heartbreaking that she nudged her to wake her up 😌Sometimes vets prescribe antibiotics as a general quick fix for just about everything. It won’t cure everything though, and there are certain types of antibiotics rabbits don’t tolerate. Medirabbit has a list of bunny safe antibiotics, if you’re ever in doubt. http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

I hope the stasis is the whole problem with your bun. It might very well be. My bun lost a lot of weight due to stasis last fall, but he managed to gain it back.

As for how much CC you should give- 20 ml every 3-4 hours except during the night ought to be sufficient. Oxbow has a table here: https://www.oxbowaustralia.com/critical-care%E2%84%A2-information-for-pet-owners/

My vet told me to not feed during the night once my bun was stable. They need to rest, just like we do.

 

[Jay]

Thank you for those links, Bam, the one which tells you what to give, how to give and how to be in yourself worked a treat, I think a lot of it was me to desperate to get the cc down her,  instead now her last feed was calm, started with a drink first  ( via syringe) a fuss and cuddle then some cc and cuddles and that’s how we got through it, so much more organised and a lot calmer for both of us she almost seemed like she was use to it and content, did managed the full feed and water ( with her Pro c in & infacol in) and she seems a lot more settled tonight ☺️ Oh and and no squeaking from her. After I put her down in her bed she went on to give herself a lovely groom 😊 thank you x hoping to wake up to more output than there has been xx

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE…..

Its been a strange day with Pip, we’ve done the cc, water, meds etc throughout the day but there just wasn’t much change in her at all. No moving about. I have a workman coming to do some repairs in the kitchen so thought I’d take Pip down with me as it’s a big room and she might move about a bit, well she did quiet a bit but I had to keep moving her away from the place where she’d nibbled the flooring and stop her from keep going and licking the concrete surrounding the wood burner, I was chatting to the guy that was here working and asked him what minerals there was in concrete that would make her keep wanting to lick it and chew the floor up to get to the concrete, he named several different minerals that would be in concrete ( but said he hadn’t got a clue about rabbits) and then that was me cross referencing these minerals to what minerals rabbit actually got from their food I got a couple of matches but mainly kept coming up with salt, sodium, iron and ?? darn it I’ve forgotten and all my notes are down stairs now ( I can’t do the stairs to many times in one day) going back to when I lost my very eldest bunnie who reached the ripe old age of 15 ( Charlie) he hardly had any teeth left and lived on a diet of alfalfa pellets blended up to a baby food consistency but he thrived on it, after Charlie passed I had a lot of alfalfa pellets left which I shared out between the buns until they were gone, so I looked up all nutrients in the alfalfa pellets and found 3 that were also in concrete so with my mind doing overtime ( or just losing it 🤷🏼‍♀️) my grandson went into the nearest town which is miles away and fetched me a bag of alfalfa pellets I blended some up and waited for them to cool and offered Pippin some and she wolfed them down ? am I going crazy or is it Pip demanding alfalfa pellets ? I’ve sent for some alfalfa hay but is it right what I’ve read that both the pellets and hay are far to rich to live on ? I’m worn out but that’s just my brain the rest of me will carry on doing what we’re doing but thinking about substituting one syringe of cc for a syringe of blended alfalfa pellets ? I of course will listen to anyone of you that says ‘stop’ you’ve lost the plot…she seemed so happy to be back down there and able to keep getting to the concrete 🤔

[DanaNM]

Bunnies can be odd sometimes, it almost sounds like she has a bit of pica, when animals consume soil, clay, or other non-food things.

My guess is that her tummy hurts, so perhaps she was instinctively seeking out something to sooth it? On of my rabbits would very aggressively rip up cardboard when his tummy was upset.

I’m not sure about the minerals in the alfalfa being linked to the concrete licking, but I think if she is eating them enthusiastically, then give them to her. Alfalfa is rich and high in protein, so most rabbits go crazy for it. I wouldn’t give both alfalfa hay and pellets. I think it would be OK to do alfalfa pellets and then stick to grass hay (but could try some different types of hay, like oat hay or orchard grass).

Normally they aren’t good for rabbits that aren’t growing, but at her age and with her weight loss they will probably be good for her! Maybe if you mix the alfalfa mash with the critical care she will eat that mixture readily?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pinkiemarie]

Does she have a lot of good stuff to chew on? Like cardboard and apple sticks and bunny safe wood toys? They love chewing, so if she doesn’t have a lot of chew toys try getting her some.

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE

I have not much news to share other than things remain the same, as I’ve said she’s stopped eating her wet greens, dandelions and drinking water she’s only having what I’m syringing down her she did after her last feed let me gentle massage/rub her tummy with no objections she just lay ( not flat but propped like you would give a baby a bottle) it’s hard to judge how much she’s actually eating of this cc because as slowly as I do it I’m getting a lot spit back out. She has lots of rabbit friendly chew toys they always have had their own toy box and would empty it daily I feel that she has given up which is why she’s not objecting to me syringe feeding her any more, her tummy is soft and there is output but no where near enough I even saw she was pooping while I was feeding her, her poops are slightly bigger than they have been but I would say half the size of her normal poops. I know this is not about me but feel at my wits end and so drained I’ve got Copd and emphysema and getting so breathless that I’m not sure out of me and pip who feels worse. The vet did drop the metoclopromide but no pain meds but said he will when he can 😔

[Bam]

I’m very sorry things have not improved. You are doing an absolutely great job.

I’m sorry you are dealing with health issues yourself, and I do understand that this is exhausting.

Poop size is not very important right now, what is important is that there is poop. There’s always an amount of CC that ends up on the human (and the furniture) instead of in the bun.

If your vet does drop of some meloxicam, that could make a difference.

You are doing all you can.

 

[Jay]

Bam do you think that since she started the metoclopromide it’s not doing her any good ? I mean might she be reacting to it ? Because I feel that since I’ve been giving her that she just stopped and not bothering like she’s given up I had a flavoured critical care arrive 2 days ago ( Apple and pear ) might it be the change in that ? I just don’t know what to do next other than keep going of which I will of course. I’ve just come to do her next feed and then the next will be between 10.30-11.30 pm so I’m hoping she takes most of this feed if not all. Thank you for your help I don’t know what I would of done without it I really don’t xx

[Bam]

The metoclopramide could cause some stomach discomfort when it sets the gut in motion. For this reason it is often given together with a pain killer. But it is also a drug that stops nausea, which is the primary use of it in humans. It’s however  not known if rabbits actually can feel nauseous, since they cant vomit.

If you feel the metoclopramide is making her feel worse, you could stop it, since she is pooping. What dose are you giving her?  If you have simethicone baby gas drops, give her that, since gas pain can affect a bun’s well-being profoundly.

I dont think the change of CC flavor could matter. Most buns actually seem to prefer the apple flavor over the aniseed one.

I 4hink all you can do is keep feeding her. Make the CC a little lukewarm. Make sure she does not get cold. You are being very brave.

[Jay]

Bam the metoclopramide says 0.5/per kg as I don’t know her weight I’m giving her 0.5 every 3 hours there are no more instructions with it and as per norm I can’t get hold of the vet but left him a voice message…I did tonight what I do every tea time and fetch her down to the kitchen she can see through the door to the conservatory but her only interest is again the concrete grating that surrounds the wood burning but today I had just got hot water and washed it all down in case there was a floor disinfectant that she could smell on it but it made no difference she was still obsessed with it so I got an old sheet and covered it all she then just went crazy at the sheet digging at it to get to under it so I took her back to her bed where she went back to just sitting in her litter tray interested in nothing I’m totally at a loss with her, I’m going to give it a bit longer with the vet meds and if no different in 24 hours stop them and just keep doing what I was doing. It really is confusing me about her obsession with the concrete xx

[Bam]

You have the same dose metoclopramide as I got for my bun. I was told to give it every 6-8 hours. (I gave him 0.75 ml of a solution made of 1/4 of a 10 mg pill, dissolved in 2.5 ml water. That means 0.75 mg metoclopramide for a 1.5 kg bun = 0.5 mg/kg.)

It’s weird with the concrete. If she is trying to gnaw at it I’d suspect a dental problem. Dental pain is often the cause of persistent refusal to eat.

 

[Jay]

Bam I managed to weigh her the way I always weighed my buns ( it just came back to me whilst lay there thinking about it all) I weighed myself then again whilst holding her, she is now 1.6 kg so I’m going to follow what you were doing with your bun. Today she seemed a little bit more interested in her favourite herbs and nibbled at them. She’s not eating the concrete just licking the grating, it this may sound daft but I wet my finger rubbed it across the concrete and dabbed it on my tongue to taste it and all I could taste was salt ! I’ve sent for a salt lick ? I’ve removed the alfalfa mash from what I was adding to her cc and so far today she’s had I guess 3 kind of successful feeds 6am, 9am and 12am and late as I am doing her what was meant to her 3am but going to be 10-15 mins late but I was watching her nibbling on herbs… her teeth although I’m no vet I get to see daily at the minute whilst syringe feeding and I can’t see a problem ( she was so docile yesterday that she was letting me put back into her mouth what she was spitting back out and had a good look at her teeth) but I didn’t think my old Charlie boy had teeth problems and ended up with most removed and syringe fed for a while but he so loved his mixture ended up happily eating it himself from his dish, they’ve always had their own bowls their own water bottle or dishes and they all knew or just out of habit ate and drank from their own ( I think) who knows who ate what or drank from what water bottle or bowl when I wasn’t watching them, I loved to sit in with them and watch all their little habits the twins especially interested me as what ever one did the other did they were inseparable ( Merri and pippin were born in a litter of 6 but shared the same sac) I think Pip is missing Merri so so much and I’m trying  to be Merri to her I’ve discovered she likes to lounge back in my arms and have a gentle tummy massage and being pampered as long as I’m not hold a syringe ) so here goes I’m off to do her late 3pm feed and investigate her litter tray and bed to count poops. Oh the joys but I love her and will do all it takes to get her well but so wish there was a rabbit savvy vet she could see, I’ve noticed that whilst typing this I’ve got everything ready for her feed and she just keeps looking at me as if to say ‘are we doing this or not mom because I’m hungry’ it a shame I can’t add videos xx

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE

The baby girl is going strong ( I hope) taking her cc, water, meds, gas drops

My question is she won’t nibble on a piece of fresh pineapple can I give her a bit of pineapple juice via syringe? The internet said no as it’s to sweet but I’ve heard or read somewhere that it’s good for gi stasis, I mean I didn’t ask the internet if she could have half a pint of it just how much I was able to give her to help with the stasis and got a big no no.
I noticed yesterday while giving her a bottom wash as poops are sticking to her that there was a strong sulphur smell would that be the cc ? Thank you all 🥰

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE

The baby girl is going strong ( I hope) taking her cc, water, meds, gas drops

My question is she won’t nibble on a piece of fresh pineapple can I give her a bit of pineapple juice via syringe? The internet said no as it’s to sweet but I’ve heard or read somewhere that it’s good for gi stasis, I mean I didn’t ask the internet if she could have half a pint of it just how much I was able to give her to help with the stasis and got a big no no.
I noticed yesterday while giving her a bottom wash as poops are sticking to her that there was a strong sulphur smell would that be the cc ? Thank you all 🥰

[Bam]

So glad to hear she’s being so wonderful!

Papaya and pineapple have traditionally been used to break up hair balls in the bunny gut. Recently there has been concerns that papaya and pineapple could potentially hurt the gut lining of stasis rabbits. This would be because both fruits contain proteolytic enzymes, ie enzymes that break down proteins. These enzymes are what we hope will break up hairballs, since hair is made of protein.  However, the stomach is also made of proteins. The stomach of a stasis bun tends to be more sensitive than the stomach of a healthy individual.

I dont think pineapple juice would do her much good, tbh. The proteolytic enzymes are inactivated by heat (in the canning process etc) though, so normal pineapple juice would practically only add some sugar and water to the diet. A few drops of juice in her water bowl could perhaps entice her to drink more. Always serve plain water as well, since some buns refuse to drink water that tastes “funny”.

The smelly poop is likely due to her gut microbiota being out of whack. Its gone out of whack because her eating habits have changed radically. CC will help normalise the microbiota, but it will take time.

[Jay]

Thank you Bam, the cc that is arriving tomorrow I noticed is papaya flavour so hope that won’t hurt her it’s the only one I could get other than buy 20gm packets and I wanted a large one I didn’t notice the flavour until the notification came through about the order. We’re just getting ready for her 10am feed she’s much calmer now taking them and chomps on what I put in like a little baby as I’m typing this I heard her tummy rumble…I’m still putting all the options of food and water she would normally have just in case and in hope, there seems to be a little more output now we’ll there was yesterday so hoping for the same today I’ve also noticed she’s started to pull bits of hay and almost like play with them but not yet eating xx

[Bam]

Naaw, I’m so glad she wants to eat what you feed her!

I give my bun Critical Care that has papaya and pineapple in it, but those ingredients are listed after salt even, so I am assuming the amount is miniscule. My bun thrives on CC, which he needs to keep weight on.

Some buns will eat softer hay or hay cut up into smaller pieces. You can also soften hay by soaking it and serving it wet (only small portions at a time, wet hay spoils quickly).

[Jay]

I do apologise I cut my last message off very quickly as my doctor and a nurse turned up it’s so very oldie worldie where I live and the doctor will just tap the door and walk in so I’ve had a bit of an MOT myself 🤦🏼‍♀️ I said to the doctor jokingly ‘you could have a look at my bunny while you’re here and bless him we had a good 15 minute chat about Pippin he advised me to keep posting here lol but gave her a fuss and said to her ‘stop worrying your mummy and get better’  what hay would you advise please Bam ? if it’s better than what she’s having or there’s one that will entice her more I’ll get her some, she’s normally very much a hay eater as I’ve had her from birth the other were older as they were rescues and not all of them would eat hay but thank goodness Pippin does as a rule. I’m so grateful for yours and everyone’s help and all advise x

[Bam]

That sounds like a very nice doctor!

Orchard hay is softer than timothy. A late cut, like third cut, of any type hay is softer than the earlier cuts. Oat hay can have seed heads that many bunnies appreciate a lot.

It is if course a lot more difficult when you cant go out and choose hay in a store, some hay dealers don’t even specify what type of hay they sell. I’ve had luck finding very soft Vitakraft VitaVerde hay, but the softness varies a lot between batches.

 

[Hazel]

Her showing interest in hay is great news! So glad that her appetite seems to be returning. Poor thing has been through a lot, and you too! I’m keeping my fingers crossed for lots of poop today! 🙂

[pinkiemarie]

I’m glad you heard a tummy rumble. More tummy rumbles please!

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE

What a strange couple of days it’s been, yesterday she had me feeling all positive then since last night it’s like she’s taken a few steps backwards…she has two litter trays as she likes to lye in the one and pop to the other for a wee and what ever poops she’s doing…woke this morning to her just lay in her litter tray and nothing in the other one so I got every thing ready got her out to discover she’d not bothered to move for a wee or poop but had just did it where she lay so was very soggy round her tail end, she’d also done quiet a few poops but hard to work out how many as they were all squashed up against her but there was more poops than normal, I gave her some pineapple juice, cc, water, meds and all the other bits and bobs she wasn’t happy about none of it. My friend turned up with more dandelions and some fresh mint which perked her up a little as she then this evening started to tuck into those and plenty of dandelions so I’ve gone from feeling that she’d taken a turn for the worse this morning to thinking she’s picked up again tonight, she still allowing me to gently massage her tummy which is still soft but now her fur is beginning  to smell of wee I know that in itself is not a problem for me just worried that it will burn her skin I am gently washing the area but she doesn’t like it. I do believe it’s the pineapple juice that has got her bowl going. I will be ringing the vet in the morning again to ask where the pain meds are and tell him that I’m going to stop the meds he has dropped because I feel she’s gone backwards since starting this. And tell him how disgruntled I feel about the fact that she’s been in pain 17 days today and I don’t feel supported by him at all.

Bam that Vitakraft VitaVerde hay that you get your bunny I can get in the UK off amazon so that should be arriving tomorrow. She’s been nibbling on dandelions as I’ve typed this out so now going to give her some syringes of water without moving her.

[DanaNM]

I would stop the pineapple juice. The sugar could be upsetting her stomach and causing gas pain, and I seriously doubt that it is helping (aside from using it as a way to get her to drink more water). When the gut isn’t moving properly sugar can also upset the balance of bacteria even more. I wonder if the squashed poops were excess cecals which she didn’t eat? Medications will sometimes cause a bun to not eat their cecals. The most important things for the bunny gut to function properly are fiber and water, so keep focusing on offering her herbs, favorite greens, hay, and getting the CC into her. Recovery from stasis can take weeks of slow steady care. You’ve been doing a great job so far!

You can use cornstarch to help clean up urine if she is still wet, you put it on and then comb it out.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jay]

Thank you. I woke this morning around 6am to find her lay in the same place no sign of her moving but can see she’d eaten dandelions I’d left with hay within her reach I picked her up to find her lay in a pool of wee and again squashed up poop…so will persevere what is cornstarch please ? Would that be what we call cornflour ? Oh she’s just left her litter box ( I call it her sofa the one she likes to chill in) she’s gone to her other litter tray and looks like she may be having a wee…is the salt lick she now seems to be liking ok for her to have ? I ask because when I had all 12 bunnies they had salt licks dotted about until I noticed one of the buns eating it and was told by the vet to take the salt licks away as they didn’t need them ? Remembering that this vet is not rabbit savvy and seems not to have much interest in them other than hunting them which is why when my bunnies went into my garden they went into a purposely built huge rabbit run which had a roof, that and the fact we have a lot of big birds mainly red kites and not sure if it’s a myth but I’m lead to believe they will swoop down and take small animals, strange how nobody seems to have outdoor cats or I’ve just never seen one around 100’s of seagulls but they’re just noisy, sorry was waffling a bit there waiting for Pip to finish and move and there is a small wee. It’s just coming up to feed time I get anxious as I know she doesn’t like it but as I’ve been told if she puts up a bit of a fight it’s a could sign she does seem to have more energy today that yesterday afternoon/evening. Thank you all.

[Bam]

Cornstarch is pure starch made from corn. Potato starch will work equally well. It is a fine white powder that is used as a thickener in food. We call it potato flour here.

Normally buns shouldn’t have salt licks because they don’t need them. A too high intake of salt causes poisoning in rabbits as well as in humans and dogs. I would only let her have the salt lick for a limited amount of time each day , and during monitoring. If she tries to eat it, I’d take it away. I’m still thinking her obsession with the concrete could be an effort at relieving pain.

Red kites can absolutely go for a rabbit. I have a friend whose two rabbits were attacked by a red kite that swooped down on their outdoors run. Luckily there was a metal net roof, so the bird couldnt get them, but the rabbits screamed in panic.  We have lots of red kites here. They are beautiful, but not something we want near our buns!

Its wonderful that she eats dandelion! If you have any willow near where you live, many rabbits like willow very much.

[Jay]

Hi Bam, Yes it sounds the same then the cornflour as your corn starch as it’s a thickening agent. I will do that remove the salt lick which she does seem to overly like and put it back only when I’m in the room but not throughout the night. I’ve just watched her go for a poop and she made the quietest of moans if I’d been the other side of the room I wouldn’t of heard her that’s how quiet it was, but 3-4 little moans then as I said when I picked her up she had been to the toilet so not sure if she’s sore or it’s painful for her to go or a coincidence timing wise with tummy pain. Ok I stopped typing to do her feed etc and it seems that after 10-ish ml is when she starts just spitting it back out so do you think that moving her feeds to every 2-2.5 hours and giving her the 10+ ml’s would be ok I do at least know she’s ok with that first 10+ ml. Thank you each and everything of you.

[Bam]

If she seems to feel better with smaller portions more often, Id give that. Are you still giving the metoclopramide?

The sound she made couldve been pain from passing stools or urine. It is of course difficult to pinpoint.

[Jay]

Well it’s 1.15 am and she’s just had her last 2 hourly feed…i worm out so I know she must be ! Or at least fed up with me pestering her, every time she hears/sees me setting up up the different things we’re going to need she must think ‘oh no here she comes again’ and starts hoping from one litter tray to the other but once I’ve picked her up and reassured her with fussing her and talking to her she just looks at me all calm, the syringes I have for her water she doesn’t mind but I can’t get a 5 or 10ml syringe for her food and she hates the bigger syringe I have for her cc,  I’ve actually got her to fall asleep in my arms rocking her with gently massaging her tum but the moment she sees that syringe oh she’s tries to go. The vet left me a voice mail and asked me if I’d thought about maybe flushing her bowel out ??? What does that mean and how would I do that myself ? My poor grandchildren are beginning to think I’ve forgotten about them ( think I’ve mentioned they live with me both parents have left, so hard work all round but they’re both very understanding and know and love Pip and understand what I’m having to do matters for Pip) I do hope we get there with her. Then there’s Keisha ( pips mummy) down stairs who I think feels a little left out I do go see her for short visits and loves,

feeds and more love’s, she’s missing Pip and me I might think about taking Pippin back down here and there to be with her mum for an hour here and there see if her mum can getting eating better.

night night everyone xx next feed at 6am that’s giving her a break and hopefully me some sleep, she is right next to my bed so I don’t miss much xx

[Bam]

I asked the other forum moderators about flushing the bowels out. It’s not a recognized bunny medical term, so its a bit unclear what your vet means. An enema, perhaps?

Since she is producing poop, albeit of varying consistency, shape and smell, an enema wouldnt do much good. The best things for flushing a rabbit’s bowels is fiber and water, i e hay and water. The fiber acts like a brush and also helps with assortment process in the gut, where some of the intestinal contents will go to the cecum for fermentation, and some will be sent out in the form of round, fecal poop.

Sometimes it does help to have another bun around to inspire eating, because it adds the element of competition. Keep in mind though, that the former partner bun can become aggressive towards a poorly bun. This is most likely due to instinct. A weak member of a rabbit colony could attract predators, putting other  colony members at elevated risk of becoming someone’s dinner.

It does seem like she has a good amount of trust in you, which is great!

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE

A much better day as far as poops are concerned, there are a few more and much softer ( easily squashed down and a better looking Colour inside, not just black) water output a little less but when I get up later I’ll clean her litter trays out and might find some surprises. She’s a little unhappy when I take the salt lick away but her obsession with it is the same as it is with the concrete. It’s 2.20am and she’s just had her last feed etc and all snuggled up until morning I’m not going to say I feel a little bit more optimistic because a bad day usually follows that…she’s been nibbling on her dandelions and herbs but really can’t tolerate more than about 10ml of cc at a time so I’m doing the more often feeds and smaller ones and lapping at her water again although I still syringe some into her during her feeds as it gets her munching on the mouthful of cc she’s not bothering to eat…I called the vet to ask him what he meant by ‘flushing her bowel out’ and he said using a small syringe lubricated with some Vaseline or similar, filling the syringe with Luke warm water and flushing her out, I told him I didn’t feel confident enough to do that and had never heard of it, he said it’s what they would do due to the nature of what she’d eaten ( the Lino) and if I didn’t feel confident enough to do it when they start seeing patients in their surgery if she was still with us he would do it !! I’m so unsure about this and hope things have picked up a lot more so as she doesn’t have to go in to the surgery.

[DanaNM]

How much lino did she actually eat? The fact that she is still trying to lick the concrete makes me wonder if perhaps the lino eating was a symptom of the stasis and not the cause of it… Bunnies will do weird things when they are in pain. Please keep asking your vet for metacam!

Since she’s passing poops and eating a bit I would not do anything drastic. I always go back to this article: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

“It is essential that the caretaker faced with a rabbit in GI stasis be patient, allowing the treatments and medications to work. Rabbits are easily stressed, and excessive handling should be avoided. It may take several days before any fecal pellets are seen, and it may take two weeks or more of motility therapy before the intestine is moving normally again. We know of one case in which a rabbit produced no fecal pellets for 14 days, but finally did respond to gentle, consistent administration of the above treatment regimen. Patience and persistence are key.”

This passage in particular seems relevant:

“PLEASE RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO FORCE ADDITIONAL, AGGRESSIVE TREATMENT ONCE THE RABBIT BEGINS TO RECOVER. RECOVERY FROM GI STASIS IS SOMETIMES MADDENINGLY GRADUAL. [We know of one instance in which a rabbit was starting to produce fecal pellets and showing signs of recovery, but the veterinarian overseeing the case insisted on anesthetizing the rabbit to perform oral gavage, enemas with an extension tube and vigorous abdominal massage. Despite advice to the contrary, this veterinarian believed that the mass in the stomach could not possibly pass without such treatment. Tragically, the rabbit died. Necropsy revealed a ruptured liver. We cannot help but wonder whether excessive handling and the unnecessarily aggressive treatments contributed to, or even caused this rabbit’s demise.]”

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jay]

PIPPIN UPDATE

Im so upset to tell you all that Pippin died today at 12.40. I noticed a change in her two days ago she was whimpering more and wanted less food although wanted endless amounts of water…the vet did finally drop off the pain meds but I do feel I had little help or advice off him throughout the whole of Pippins illness. I spent the night up with her last night as I felt I was losing her and expected it to be during the night but the cruelness of death went on until 12.40pm by which time I was begging for the end to come for her she was disoriented and running into things and falling over yet I felt cruel trying to hold her still in one place she did however run to me ( I was on the floor with her) at the end and I could see by her breathing and little crying noises that it was the end and it finally all come to an end for her. This all went on for over 20 days for her some leaving us optimistic and others not so much. I know I shall never ever get to the bottom of what was wrong with her all I do know is that she fought hard to stay. I’d like to thank each and everyone of you, without you all we’d of been lost. I feel lost without her little face just looking at me. Heartbroken is an understatement. my poor little little Pippin. 💔

[Bam]

I’m so very sorry.

You fought so bravely for her. You did everything you possibly could. I’m so sorry she had to leave 💔

Sweet little Pippin, I hope she’s with her sister now in bunny Heaven.

[Hazel]

I’m so sorry, I was hopeful that she would pull through. 😥  You did everything you could and fought so hard to get her through this. Don’t blame yourself.

Binky free, Pippin.

[DanaNM]

I’m so sorry for your loss. 😥 You fought so hard for her in a really tough situation. You gave her a wonderful long life and she isn’t in pain anymore.

(((Binky free sweet Pippen)))

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jay]

Thank you all so very much for all the time you put into helping Pippin, sweet sweet Pippin 💔😢 I’m struggling not seeing her little face looking at me, waking today and not seeing her there I’m cross with the vet/virus for not being able to take her and get her the help she needed. I took pippin down to her mom to let her mom know and except she’d gone. I hope I did right I’ve always done that as I’ve either read or was told that this is what you have to do. Her mom (Keisha) lay with her washing her as she did. I’ve brought Keisha up to my room now as she’s on her own and elderly I will keep a very close eye on her and as good as I’ve cleaned up I’m sure she can smell Pippin, she seems busy looking for her. She’s broke my heart I just don’t know why after so long she died 💔 Thank you all so very much xx

[Bam]

It is recommended to let the surviving bun see and interact with the deceased bun, unless you suspect cause of death to be a contagious illness. In Pippin’s case cause of death is unlikely to have been something contagious that Keisha hadn’t already been exposed to during earlier contacts. I dont know if there’s any scientific support for the notion that the surviving pet gets some sort or closure from seeing its deceased partner, it may not have been subject to very much scientific study.

Its very hard to not know what it was your bun was suffering from. It’s often like that with rabbits. Sometimes a necropsy will reveal the source of the problem, but far from always. Almost any major problem with any rabbit organ system will manifest as GI trouble. Rabbits hide illness because they’re prey animals and can’t afford to show weakness. They can be very far gone by the time they stop eating, but inappetence is often the first symptom we notice.

I’m very sorry the circumstances prevented you from getting her appropriate vet care. Maybe it wouldnt have made a difference for the outcome. A lot of what is required when tending to an unwell rabbit is supportive care. You gave her excellent supportive care.

[Author]

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