Grasping at Straws…

[Bunnisox]

I’ve been reluctant to post about this issue for some time now, as it’s got a lot of information and I simply did not have the time to sit down and write it all out. I’ve decided to forego food today on my lunch break @ work and take the time to write this out because I am absolutely at the end of my rope and I feel like I’m grasping at straws and I’m all out of options.

I’ll try to keep this as short as possible, while not leaving out any of the important information. I’m so sorry if the information seems scattered, I’m just trying to remember everything.

I have 3 rabbits, all girls: 2 Netherland Dwarfs (siblings) and a rescued Rex (I got her when she was about 1yr old). They are all roughly the same age – about 4.5 years old. None of them are fixed at this time.

*Long Side Note RE: Spaying – I know, I know.. I really, honestly do. When we first got our 2 buns, I literally knew NOTHING about rabbits, (I got them from a BREEDER, for god’s sake, SMH) and didn’t know to get them fixed. I didn’t know about the high rate of uterine cancer, or the behavioral issues, or anything. As I had them for a few years, and did more and more research on taking care of rabbits, it became clear to me that I had made a mistake. Once I learned this, I started reading into how sometimes they don’t wake up after the anesthesia, or how some succumb to stasis after it, and all the stress it puts on them, etc. Since then, I’ve always been so terrified of the possibility of losing my little loves, that I decided not to have them fixed and do my absolute best to give them the best un-altered life I can give them. Please understand that I will learn from my mistakes going forward, though, and have promised myself, and my future buns, that I will either adopt them already fixed, or make sure to get that done at the earliest time possible.

Muffins and Waffuls (the 2 Netherlands) have been having strange GI issues on and off for the past 6 months-ish, to where they are producing small poops, and not eating very much hay, drinking very much water, and being fairly lethargic. Waffuls has been better the past month or so, with no issues, eating tons of hay and drinking, seemingly, enough water – her poops have been pretty steady and good sized/amounts. But Muffins just seems to be not getting any better for about the past 2 months, no matter what I do, and it’s driving me absolutely insane.

Each day feels like a never-ending struggle. I spend literally ALL of my time when I’m at home trying to get ahead of this. Watching and monitoring poops, rubbing bellies, trying to encourage hay and water consumption, offering different kinds of herbs that are known to help with digestive issues (plantain, fennel), doing online research, encouraging movement and play by setting up little forts and moving things around a bit, and trying to create a relaxed non-stressful environment by spending time with them, grooming them, petting them, talking to them.

Her poops range in size from normal, to really small, to her not pooping for several hours on end (1-5 hours). This is so terrifying for me to witness each time she stops pooping for hours. I literally am almost to the point of tears every time. She spends the majority of her time just loafed up in a spot away from everyone/everything. I’ve caught her grinding her teeth a few times, but it’s not too often, it seems.

About 1.5 weeks ago she pooped out a little bit of clear mucus/jelly substance with her poop (it was very little). I know this is typically indicative of inflammation/infection in their GI. There hasn’t been any since, so when I took her to the vet a few days after that, they didn’t give me anything for it. I’ve been giving her Linden since, and I’m hoping it’s helping…

I know a healthy bunny GIT needs moisture, fiber/roughage, good bacteria, and a good amount of exercise/movement to keep it going. I feel like she’s not getting enough fiber/roughage as she doesn’t eat a lot of hay. This is my biggest struggle. I’ve LITERALLY purchased as many different types of hay as I can possibly find (I’ve recently added up my checkbook and I’ve spent $700 in hay this year so far… it’s disgusting). I’ve tried timothy hay, of course – 1^st, 2^nd, and 3^rd cut, Orchard grass, oat hay (taking out the seeds/tops), mountain grass, and I’ve even tried putting a little alfalfa in there to help encourage consumption – but she just digs it out and eats the alfalfa without touching the other types of hay. I’ve tried sprinkling foraging herbs on their hay, and have tried putting up different types of hay in different containers all over my damn house – my house has literally been covered in hay for the past 2 months – it’s everywhere. My allergies, and my husband are going nuts.

For a while, I thought it was because they weren’t drinking enough water – which I still don’t think they are. So I’ve taken to adding a little juice to a lot of water in a separate water bowl, and it has seemed to help encourage water consumption.

I’ve checked areas of the house where they could be getting into something – but to no avail. I don’t keep plants inside the house, the carpet hasn’t been torn up anywhere, and there is no chewing on the walls/paint/baseboards.

They get 1/4 cup of pellets each day, but they usually only eat about half of them. The pellets are Small Pet Select brand and contain 25-29% fiber.

They get a plate of wet greens every night when I get home from work (about 3 cups, If I had to guess) which contains:

– Mixed Lettuce (which has: green leaf lettuce, spinach, arugula, and radicchio in it)
– Romaine Lettuce
– Italian Parsley
– Cilantro
– Kale (small amounts)
– Dill
– (more recently) Fennel
– I buy carrot tops when I can find them, but unfortunately it’s not often.

They eat their greens without issue and are excited to get them every night. This, I’m wondering could be part of the issue..? I notice they poop a lot better after they’ve eaten their greens – so should I split the veggie feeding up into multiple times a day, instead of just once? I’m concerned, though, if I feed them more veggies, they will be EVEN MORE inclined to not eat any pellets or hay.

I’ve given her a few doses of bene-bac over the past few weeks, but I don’t know if that’s helping or not, and I have to hide it inside a piece of banana to give it to her; and giving her any kind of treat/sugar is something I’m trying to avoid as much as I can.

I’ve been giving them 2 digestive supplements, in small doses, each day. I’ve linked them, below:

1.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016MZTD22

2.  www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IIU3HHG

I find they do worse on the days I forego giving them the supplements (I did an experiment for a few days to see if the supplements were causing the issue), so I’ve made it a point to give it to them in small amounts 2x each day, and it seems to help.

I thought it could be gas pain, but they refuse to let me put any sort of liquid in their mouths – they act like I’m trying to kill them, and run for their lives and avoid me like I’m the plague. Does anyone have any ideas for help with this?

I’ve taken her, and her sister, to 3 different exotic animal vets, and NONE of them have been able to come up with any answer as to the root cause of the issue. They’ve confirmed there’s no blockages, and have said “it’s probably safe to say” that there’s not a tooth issue because they are eating pellets without a problem; they’ve checked the front teeth, but didn’t want to subject them to anesthesia in order to really take a good look @ the back teeth “unless absolutely necessary”.

The last time I took her in to the vet was about a week ago and they gave me some pain medicine (metacam) to try to determine if pain is what’s causing the issue. Their logic is: If she is given the pain meds and starts eating more hay, it’s pain-related, and we can move forward from there. I have an issue with this… and maybe you guys can try to help clarify this for me – I asked the vet if there are any side-effects to her taking the medication – she said “no”. I did some online research and see some articles saying it causes gut slow-down… I don’t want to give her these pain meds if it’s going to have an even further negative impact on her GIT.

My 3^rd rabbit, Mika (the Rex girl) doesn’t have any issues like this and she gets the same diet (albeit a little more since she’s bigger). She eats a ton of hay and pellets and is super healthy.

A little over a week ago, while doing belly massage on Muffins, I felt a small lump about the size of a small blueberry in her belly on the side. I took her to the vet the next day. The vet was surprised I found it, and it turned out to be a non-cancerous cyst. They drained it and advised me to keep an eye on it to see if it returned.

One last thing I should probably mention: Muffins belly feels a LOT smaller/thinner than Waffuls. Which is strange because they both weigh about 3 lbs each. I could wrap my hands around Muffin’s belly if I wanted to, but I wouldn’t be able to do that with Waffuls. Waffuls belly is also (most of the time) very doughy and squishy. Muffins belly is almost non-existent, it’s so small. When I brought Muffins to the vet, she said her belly felt normal to her…

Can GI issues be hereditary? I can’t think of any other reason why this could be happening. 

I know this is a long-shot, asking for help on a rabbit forum – but I feel like I’m out of ideas and resources and help, and I’m so stressed out all of the time. I feel like I’m doing just enough every day to get her through that day until the next day, then I’m back to square one again. Each morning I’m so absolutely terrified that I’m going to wake up to my baby dead, and I cannot handle that. I thought that the vet would be able to fix this, and when they didn’t, I went to another vet hoping it was just that first vet that was the problem – now that both vets don’t know how to fix this, I feel like I’m all alone left trying to figure this out and save my little love, and it’s so heart-wrenching and exhausting and I’m starting to feel like it’s hopeless. I don’t know what to do anymore.

Any help, ideas, advice, suggestions, or information would be SO incredibly appreciated. Thank you so much.

[Wick & Fable]

100% honestly did not read the last third of the entry because I wanted to get my thoughts down.

In terms of teeth, did they use an otoscope to glimpse towards the back of the mouth at least? While you cannot get a clear picture of the molars unless under anesthesia, you can get a good idea if there’s spur irritation if you notice bubbles/excess salivation in the back of the mouth. This is the rabbit trying to lubricate the discomfort. Wick gets his molars grinded every 5 weeks, and this is what his vet always looks for.

Also, not eating pellets is not a sure sign of dental issues. Wick eats no matter his spurs, so I recommend asking your vets to take a look for excess saliva as a sign instead?

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Wick & Fable]

100% honestly did not read the last third of the entry because I wanted to get my thoughts down.

In terms of teeth, did they use an otoscope to glimpse towards the back of the mouth at least? While you cannot get a clear picture of the molars unless under anesthesia, you can get a good idea if there’s spur irritation if you notice bubbles/excess salivation in the back of the mouth. This is the rabbit trying to lubricate the discomfort. Wick gets his molars grinded every 5 weeks, and this is what his vet always looks for.

Also, not eating pellets is not a sure sign of dental issues. Wick eats no matter his spurs, so I recommend asking your vets to take a look for excess saliva as a sign instead?

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Wick & Fable]

I’m also fixated on teeth because teeth can be hereditary and they’re Netherlands.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Wick & Fable]

In terms of veggies, to be safe, it may be good to stick with just green lettuce. Rabbits will happily eat things as long as they don’t feel immediately badly afterwards and make the association so going back to square one with veggies and staying there may be helpful. If it makes you feel better, wick only gets green lettuce. Variety is a treat, but not necessary.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Bunnisox]

They tried to use an otoscope to see inside, on the sides of her mouth, but she was putting up such a fight/struggle that after about 10 minutes of trying, they said it was just causing her more stress than good, so we stopped. If you think it could still be tooth-related, I will schedule another appointment and take her in to have them take another look. Do you think the veggies could be the cause? They always seem to poop better after they’ve had their dinner.

[Wick & Fable]

It would be worth a shot to limit to one veggie. There’s no harm, and it would confirm/deny whether vegetation variety is okay. While the poop forms correctly, maybe the digestion itself is more taxing on their gut than usual rabbits. Every rabbits gut will develop flora slightly differently. For example, Wick is fine with eating and digesting parsley, but it makes him pee an absolute crazy amount very rapidly. He also can’t have cucumber because he gets immediately gassy.

I think trying again may be worth it. Although it may be stressful, it’d be worth examining if it means it could alleviate pain and discomfort.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Bunnisox]

I will call my vet in the morning and see what they have to say about the potential tooth issue and what we can do to ensure it’s not the root cause of the problem. I will also look into removing foods from her diet, as well, even though I’m sure she will not be happy about it (she freaking loves dill and cilantro so much!).

I’m still looking for help about metacam, though. I would like to know for sure if it causes a slow-down of the GIT. If anyone has any information on this, it would be appreciated.

[Heaven]

Posted By Wick on 3/13/2018 4:32 PM

In terms of veggies, to be safe, it may be good to stick with just green lettuce… If it makes you feel better, wick only gets green lettuce. 

Sorry to butt in, but you mean Wick only gets green lettuce all the time, or only when his molars are flaring up?

Interesting to read, I’ve probably been over cautious about making sure Sam gets a good range of veg (though he gets forage in his hay as well). Sam usually has one small-ish portion of one type of veg/herbs a day.

[Heaven]

Posted By Bunnisox on 3/13/2018 5:50 PM

I’m still looking for help about metacam, though. I would like to know for sure if it causes a slow-down of the GIT. If anyone has any information on this, it would be appreciated.

I don’t know if this would help, but my bunny has been on Metacam for the past week for allergies, and I’ve definitely noticed a reduction in his appetite.

[Luna]

1. GI issues can be hereditary, and since they are siblings, this could very well be the case.

2. Agree that a second look with the otoscope would be a good idea.

3. I think Metacam can cause decreased appetite but I’m not sure. I just remember that the ER vet didn’t want to give Luna Metacam when she was admitted for stasis (she wasn’t in pain though). Bam knows meds well if you want to PM her .

4. I like Wick’s idea of reverting to 1 veggie for now, then trying the other ones individually to see if any of them are a “problem veggie.”

[Wick & Fable]

Wick only gets green lettuce period. I know rabbits like variety but Wick is content to eat his green lettuce, haha. He’s still happy and healthy regardless

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Bunnisox]

Thank you all for your help and advice, I sincerely appreciate it. It’s strange to think that a certain veggie could be the cause of all our problems! I feel so horrible taking away their favorite foods, though… ugh. This is gonna be harder on me than it is on them, I think, lol.

Some good news though, Muffins was running around and pooping great yesterday when I got home from work! The only thing that changed was that I fed them a portion of their veggies (about a cup) in the morning before I left for work. I’m hoping it’s not just a coincidence, and that doing something as simple as feeding them a few times a day instead of once, will make a huge difference. I know it doesn’t fix the issue of them not eating hay — I will still contact my vet to see what we can do for checking out their teeth; and I will work on being okay with taking away their favorite foods, at least for a little while, to see if that helps, as well.

I’m going to stick with my gut and avoid using the metacam unless absolutely necessary and she stops eating all together.

Lastly, @Luna – you mentioned that GI issues can be hereditary. I’m going to assume there’s not – but is there any way, that you know of, to check and see if this is the case? Bloodwork, etc? I would hate it if there was nothing I could do about this because it’s simply hereditary.

Again, thank you guys so much for your thoughts/suggestions. It means so much to me!! <3

[Luna]

I’m not sure but I don’t think so. But I wouldn’t worry; even IF their issues are hereditary that doesn’t mean that there is nothing you can do about it. It just means that they could be predisposed to tummy troubles, so adjustments in diet or feeding schedules might be more necessary for them than compared to other buns. For instance, if someone was predisposed to cavities, then that person should eat less candy/sugars and may have to brush/floss more often than other people. It doesn’t mean that the person will continue to get cavities.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to scare or discourage you! The GI issues might not even be hereditary, but even if they are, that doesn’t mean your buns won’t live like “normal” buns. You’re taking great steps analyzing the issue and thinking about preventative measures .

[Bunnisox]

Sorry to re-open this, but I’ve got some new info that I would appreciate some more insight to, if possible; and I’m not 100% comfortable w/ the vets in my area – and trust the bunny-experienced people in this forum, more than I do them, unfortunately.

I think I’ve narrowed this down to a tooth-related issue. I just listened to a podcast about tooth issues w/ rabbits and it seems rabbits chew differently when they eat pellets -vs- hay, (plus the info provided from Wick – thank you! That’s the reason I looked into the podcast!) so it’s probably one of her back teeth (spurs) causing this. Again, this is just a guess, and I won’t know for sure until I see my vet for them to analyze this possibility. I’ve looked/felt around her chin area and I don’t feel any drool, or dry/crust. She doesn’t wince in pain or move away when I rub the sides of her mouth/teeth area. So I’m unsure…

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to see my vet again until the beginning of next month (a little under 2 weeks from now), and I need to go out of town for 3 days next week. I AM TERRIFIED of something happening to my baby while I’m away. I have a sitter that is coming over to feed them, and monitor them, but I’m so scared.

I’ve also just read this article, in which they indicate eating a lot of lettuce can lead to GI stasis..? This is troublesome, as I’ve been upping the amount of green leaf lettuce she’s receiving to make sure she keeps eating *something* since she barely touches her hay, and since it has a lot of moisture in it. This was actually approved by my vet, who said that it would be okay to do this, as eating is the most important part of avoiding stasis – so it didn’t matter if I increased the amount of food that she DOES eat.

“Lettuce is also known to cause digestive problems if consumed in large quantities. Some varieties of lettuce (especially iceberg and other light colored varieties) contain high amounts of a substance called lactucarium, which can contribute to the formation of soft or runny fecal pellets. Lettuce is also one of the foods that is widely believed to contribute to a life-threatening condition called gastrointestinal stasis.”

https://www.petconsider.com/can-rabbits-eat-lettuce-safely/

I’ve taken away all her other veggies for the past week-ish, and haven’t noticed any improvement. So I don’t *think* it’s an issue being caused by the type of veggies she’s eating…

I broke down and gave her .3ML of metacam yesterday because she was just loafing in the corner for the majority of the day, in hopes that it would help her feel better and eat. I’m not sure if it made things worse, or didn’t have an effect at all, because she still was avoiding food and attention up to about 5 hours after I had given it to her.

Are there any other pain medications that are okay for rabbits outside of metacam?

Any suggestions on how to keep her okay during my 3 days out of town? What about motility drugs? Any side effects from those?

I’ve also read about the pellets that Sherwood brand are promoting, that say they are better for rabbits than other pellets because they use alfalfa instead of soy bean husks. I’ve ordered some of those, and they should be here on Friday, but I’m hesitant on trying them…

https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/adult-rabbit-food/

I need to make sure she’s going to be okay until I can get her into the vet…

Help?

[Wick & Fable]

Don’t have time to do a thorough reply now, but I’ll say that Wick does not show the typical symptoms that one sees with molar spurs, such as drooling and pain wincing. Wick eats as normal and functions pretty much as usual. He just starts peeing out of the litterbox and gets irritated more quickly. Those symptoms you list are common, but not exclusive! Wick gets spur grindings every 5 weeks, so a lot of evidence that every rabbit may show different symptoms.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Rio and Buns]

My boy went through something similar before he passed. He completely stopped eating hay but would still enthusiastically eat greens, pellets, and critical care. What I wish I would have thought of at the time was giving him Standlee timothy pellets. They’re made with 100% timothy hay so I can imagine it would be a good supplement for the hay she’s not getting, but y’all can correct me if I’m wrong about this. I would think it’d be okay to give her an unlimited amount just like you do with regular hay, in addition to the normal amount of Small Pet Select or Sherwood pellets that she gets, and greens. You could even try soaking the pellets to make it even easier to eat them.

I hope you figure out what’s wrong with her. Please update us with any news if you don’t mind.

[Bunnisox]

I’m calling my vet to see if they’re experienced with tooth procedures on rabbits – she is out of the office right now and will call me back. If they’re experienced, I’m going to suck it up and take out a payday loan to take her to the vet ASAP. I have no clue what I’m going to do, or what decision to make, if the vets in my area are not familiar/experienced with rabbit teeth procedures..

I’ve also just located a Sherwood product, similar to Critical Care – and it looks like it has stellar reviews compared to Oxbow, as far as rabbits liking it. I’ve just ordered some of that, in hopes it will help, too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019EM0ECS

@Rio and Buns – how long did your sweet bun last like this? I’m so worried for my little girl.

[Luna]

I read the Lettuce article and it does seem to be misleading. Yes, iceberg lettuce is bad. True, buns who eat large quantities of lettuce can develop tummy issues…however, the article fails to clarify that it is bad for buns to eat large quantities of lettuce when there is little to no hay in their diet. This is because hay contains the fiber buns need to keep their gut moving, and also a diet comprised solely of lettuce is not going to get the bun the nutrients he needs. 

Luna eats green leaf lettuce (along with other veggies) every day. Her daily food consumption consists of 90% hay, 5% pellets, and 5% veggies. [The standard recommended diet is 80% hay, 10% veggies, 5% pellets, 5% or less treats.] But there are definitely situations where a bun needs a specialized diet. https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/tabid/53/CategoryID/2/PID/940/Default.aspx

So you are right in giving your bun veggies to entice her to eat so that she doesn’t go into stasis. If you can also get some critical care or make a pellet mash, that would help get fiber into her body and would be easy for her to eat until her teeth get filed.

[Rio and Buns]

Gosh… it was such a complicated situation, but he lived for maybe two or three weeks after it started. I had taken him to the vet when I first noticed him not eating hay and they thought it could be his teeth too. I decided to hold off on getting them filed to see if he would eat orchard grass, and he got really excited when I put some in his rack but looked like he was incapable of chewing it. So I took him to get his teeth filed…. vet said they were slightly sharp but shouldn’t have been causing him discomfort. Sent me home with metacam which I gave to him a few times and highly regret it because I think it was a big factor in his death. He always had a sensitive gut and I wasn’t aware that it could affect it, and the vet didn’t tell me anything either despite knowing that his gut was sensitive. I also regret getting his teeth filed in general because it caused him to completely stop eating altogether. I still don’t know what caused him to stop eating hay though, and I guess I never will.

I’m not trying to scare you. If there are obvious spurs on your girls teeth then filing them is definitely the way to go, but I would be super hesitant to file them if the vet says they’re not sharp enough to be causing her to not eat. I would also be hesitant to give her metacam, but it looks like you’ve already decided not to do that. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I know exactly how it feels and wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

[Bam]

Your first post makes me think of e cuniculi. It can cause GI issues, it often affects the kidneys and leads to a higher than normal water consumption. It’s a parasite that many rabbits carry, between 60-80% of rabbits are believed to be carriers. Most bunnies never show symptoms, their immune defense keeps the infection down. The immune defense is dependent on many many factors, both heriditary and environmental, and it differs between individuals. That could be why Wuffles got better, but not Muffin.

As for molar spurs: What speaks again st molar spurs is that both buns were affected at first. Wuffles got well again, but not Muffin.

Molar spurs can be very small but still cause a bunny to go off its food. When my Yohio had molar spurs, the vet couldn’t see any with the otoscope. He got fluids and vitamins and x-rays and still wouldn’t eat properly. He only ate willow leaves and a bit of greens voluntarily and I syringed him CC three times a day. After 3 weeks of this, he had his molars burred. They said he had really, really tiny spurs that they wouldn’t have thought could cause him trouble. Soon after the burr, his appetite was back to normal again. I had to ask for metacam after the burr. I don’t go to that vet anymore. Yohio never had any symptoms on the outside of his mouth – no cheek/jaw tenderness to the touch, no drooling, no wetness, no weepy eyes.

Metacam can be combined with ranitidine to minimize the detrimental effects of Metacam on the stomach lining. My Bam were prescribed ranitidine together with metacam last summer, by a very rabbit savvy vet, even though he didn’t have a GI problem (he had a lower airway infection). Ranitidine also acts as a gut motility drug. It’s OTC for humans but the dose needs to be recalculated for rabbits, of course. You should always check with a bunny vet before you add/take away medications, but in your situation I can see how that would be difficult.

Probiotics can’t really be overdosed, the surplus is just pooped out.

As for lettuce, I think Luna has made the correct interpretation. There are still people that believe rabbits should eat carrots and lettuce period. That’s what rabbits do in cartoons. In reality, buns eat grass, grass and more grass and their system is built for grass. Hay is grass.

[Author]

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