Do I have the right strategy for bonding 4?

[attemptedquad]

I want a quad. I have 1 bonded f,m pair and 2 single males currently. I have been trying to bond the 2 boys and they are really struggling with dominance. Both boys want to be the dominant one and constantly ask to be groomed. One humps more, but the other nips more. I initially started with 24/7 bonding with all 4 but it was a fail because the 2 unbonded boys were the only ones showing any aggression. The bonded pair just huddled and submitted and was super anxious every time the 2 boys started up. The female in the pair is extremely submissive and is obsessed with both unpaired boys. Her partner doesn’t seem to be stoked about their presence, but hasn’t shown actual aggression, just some territorial poops and peeing.

The 2 boys survived a 9 hour session a couple days ago in probably a 4×6 area, but starting back up today, they’re boxing, nipping, etc. and I’ve had to limit their space again and I just feel like we’re kind of going nowhere. I know they could have a breakthrough but it’s just getting exhausting seeing huge improvements and then they want nothing to do with each other. Would I have better success by adding one boy to the pair and then later adding the last one later on?

[Wick & Fable]

You can always try the the trio first and introducing the final one later, yes. Group bonding is even more variable in successful methods than pair bonding, so I would stick with what seems to be working and re-evaluate if things are not.

Re: improvements, while being able to be with each other for a long time is positive, are you seeing interactions between the two males that are actually indicative of hierarchy agreement? Something that can happen in larger spaces (like a 4×6) is that peace if sustained for several hours simply because each rabbit is staying in their own space and not intruding on the other. While it’s great that there’s no direct hostility, they are not exercising the space and communicating with each other to actually try and figure out a cohabitating dynamic.

There are several stories of quad bonding and processes throughout Binkybunny, so I encourage you to read them to see if any can be informative/helpful for you: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=site%3A+binkybunny.com+quad

… in addition to here: https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together#Bonding_3.2B_rabbits

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[attemptedquad]

They really struggle being in a small space, but show positive signs in bigger spaces. I’ve been trying to use smaller spaces lately to get them to interact more, but it just leads to fights it seems. They will sometimes lay side by side in a bigger space and Bodhi grooms Salem, but Salem refuses to groom Bodhi, which leads to fights. Bodhi will get annoyed to the point of fur pulling and sometimes biting and latching on, usually to Salems butt. They flop together or loaf together a lot, sometimes side by side, sometimes on opposite ends of the pen. They’re very bug boys at 10 pounds each, so I think that affects space too.

[Wick & Fable]

Admittedly, if it comes down to Bodhi wanting grooming and Salem being unwilling to do it, and both are persistent in that stance, you may have two rabbits who are incompatible. That being said, two single rabbits can still be generally stimulated by each other’s presence, especially if they aren’t aggressive consistently. I actually have two single rabbits who are housed separately, but they are still able to contact through a pen since there is no history of fighting through them. This allows the one rabbit who really wants the companionship to still lounge by the stubborn rabbit who didn’t.

Latching on is a very negative sign when thinking of the “ranking” of rabbit behaviors towards each other. It may be easier and relieving to commit to having two single rabbits and perhaps when your circumstance changes, you can try bonding them again in the future.

I’m sorry as I’m sure that’s not what you’re looking for, but if pre-bonding tactics and usual bonding tactics are not working, the dual singles is the other alternative. If you haven’t already, you can review our bonding guide to ensure everything is set-up to try to have the best chance of success possible: https://binkybunny.com/infocategory/bonding/

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

I had an attempted quad and also had a lot of issues with my two boys. In my case I ended up giving up because one of my boys is a senior (he’s now 13), and I just didn’t want to put him through the stress.

I think if large spaces are working, stick with that. I’ve always had better luck with large spaces, and Margo DiMello of the San Diego HRS exclusively uses very large spaces for bonding groups.

If you don’t feel your making progress in the long sessions (and you are really committed to the quad), it may help to go back a step and do some shorter sessions with just the boys. A lot of people will tend to focus on the pair that is causing the most trouble first, and then work on the group once that pair is doing better.

I also think you can do some work with them to build some positive vibes. When they approach each other and ask for grooms, pet them both A LOT, so they think they are being groomed. This can be really helpful in the early days to help stop the cycle of fighting. Sometimes the act of being groomed also triggers grooming, so you might see some actual grooming afterwards. Eventually you will need to wean off the petting, but don’t be afraid to have your hands on them a lot at first.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

Thank you for this! I was scared to facilitate petting because so many people give advice to not get too involved in the bonding and have them focus on each other. I think I need to build up very slowly. I’m not hugely dedicated to the quad, but I need more bunnies to bond basically. 3 different setups is too much for me, but I can probably handle 2 long term. If that means a trio and a single, that’s fine, if it means 2 pairs, that’s fine. 1 group or 2 pairs would definitely be ideal because I would feel wrong having a single and would probably look on adopting that one out to somewhere else. I do feel like if I can bond the 2 difficult boys, my singles, the quad wouldn’t be too difficult because when I put all 4 together, they are the only 2 stirring up trouble. After multiple dates, I’m sure that would change, but just what I’ve noticed thus far.

[DanaNM]

I’ve read all that advice too, and it often lead me astray LOL. Different things work for dif buns. I learned the petting technique from the lead bonder at the rescue I volunteer at, and it’s really worked well for me in some tough bonds.

It is important not to stay involved the whole time. Eventually you have to ease off the petting, but at first it’s OK, and seems to help them learn to communicate without so much fear and violence.

With my troublesome boys, if I had wanted to continue, my plan would have been to work with the boys separately until I felt like they were almost there, and then I was going to put the group back together. In my case my issue was my 12 yr old senior (Bun Jovi) just would NOT stop trying to mount the other boy, even when the other bun was attacking him aggressively because of it. It was bizarre, he was obsessed to the point where I thought he was going to give himself a heart attack. It was sad because it was after a couple days of marathoning where they had been getting along great (some cuddling and grooming, generally very calm). I just don’t think Bun Jovi is a great candidate for a group because of his mounting and his age.

But, now I have two happy pairs so I don’t have any regrets. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

Seniors definitely complicate things! I think I’ve decided to keep working on the 2 boys more and just keep the two pairs separate. My only female’s age is unknown, but I believe she’s definitely a senior as well. She has arthritis (and possibly spinal disease or a previous fracture) and stresses quite easily and I’m starting to realize I don’t think she should go through bonding at her age and condition, although her vet approved it. She was my first bunny and while they were all rescues from bad situations, hers was by far the worst and she lived in horrible conditions for years. I’m much more soft with her than the others, so I moved her and her husbun upstairs with me and they already seem much more relaxed not being around the other two boys.

The boys are all young, so maybe when she passes away, I could bond the three of them or even bring in a female or two and bond everyone at once. I’ve always worried about how her partner would react to her passing, which is why I wanted to bond more into the group before that happened, but I think it’s best to wait.

[DanaNM]

Aww that sounds so similar to what I went through. I’m glad they relaxed upstairs, I saw the same thing with mine. I’m guessing having them out of the picture might help the boys bond more easily too.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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