Chronic Sinus Infection – Bordetella

[Ollie’s Mom]

Hello,

I’m really hoping someone else on this forum has gone through this with their bun and maybe has some suggestions. My Ollie Bunny Has been fighting a chronic sinus infection for probably at least 6 months. He’s had three separate deep nasal cultures which all yielded Bordetella only no Pastorella or any other bacterial strains. He’s an only child that lives in doors and has the run of the house. Besides his sinus infection symptoms he has a very healthy appetite and is very active. His symptoms range from a slightly wet nose with clear discharge to an occasional thicker white. Sneezing is intermittent. He’s had several rounds of Cipro which he tolerated well GI wise, however they start to work and then eventually stop working. The only other antibiotic that It was susceptible to on his sensitivity report was Azithromycin, however it caused bad GI stasis shortly after just one dose & 2 weeks later I tried to give him a half a dose and he started displaying signs of tummy trouble within minutes afterwards again so that’s out of the question. My vet is very rabbit savvy fortunately but said those are the only two anabiotic it’s susceptible to. We even tried a saline nasal flush which I think made him worse for several days afterwards. I’ve also tried a Gentamicin nebulizer treatments. Now she wants to try an Azithromycin suspension that’s pre-mixed from the pharmacy to see if it goes any better but I’m really nervous and then next thing would be injections but I’ve read really bad things about them and even she says that they are used with caution. If anyone else has had experience with a bun that has had a chronic Bordetella Only sinus infection, I would gladly welcome anything that has helped.

Thanks so much!!! ?❤️

[Wick & Fable]

I know you’re asking for Bordetella-only sinus infections, and unfortunately Wick’s treatment was trial-and-error based, so I do not have a definitive answer on what specific “snuffles” infection he had, but I wanted to pitch in at the least.

From start to finish, Wick’s took 3mo of treatment to cure. We tried two weeks on Bactrim, switched to Baytril, then at the end combined Baytril with shots of flocillin and bingo, we got the right combo to take care of the infection.

You mention tummy troubles, which is common when rabbits take antibiotics. The bacteria in rabbit guts is very important for their digestive process, and antibiotics, being what they are, disrupt that balance, so when taking antibiotics, the rabbit should also be prescribed PRObiotics in order to replenish that gut bacteria. For those three months, in addition to two doses of antibiotics, Wick always got 2 romaine leaves with probiotic powder on them. I will say some medications will just cause tummy troubles for rabbits— Wick was just taken off Flagyl because despite probiotic use, he got immediate tummy trouble from it. … so I’m curious if you were ever prescribed a probiotic to give in tandem with an antibiotic? If not, maybe this is something you can discuss which may alleviate the GI trouble, letting Ollie get through the effective course and alleviate the symptoms.

In terms of injections, they aren’t as bad as you may read. Remember people are more likely to post BAD things that happen than good. I gave/give Wick shots and it goes relatively smoothly if you are confident in yourself as you follow a good process. If you do need to do shots, just post and we can give you tips!

I will say that Wick’s vet acknowledged his infection was quite persistent and it stumped us. We just stuck to what seemed to be working and I kept a consistent, germ-free routine of helping Wick clean his nose and telling him bless you constantly for all his sneezing. Whether his infection is chronic and it’s now dormant from the antibiotics, unsure, but continuing an open dialogue is a good thing to do in these circumstances.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Ollie’s Mom]

Hello,

Thank you for responding. I give Ollie Benebac on a regular basis & more frequently when he’s on antibiotics. The Azithromycin caused symptoms each time within minutes of his dose, so obviously it can’t be continued. It’s so frustrating because besides his sinus issues, he has a very good appetite & is very active & happy bun. I just hope we can find the right antibiotic for him soon. It’s been going on way too long.

[Bam]

Sometimes injections are better because they don’t have to use the GI route. Some rabbit antibiotics can only be given as injections because the rabbit GI tract can’t handle them. That said, Medirabbit doesn’t mention azitromycin as an injectable and RabbitWiki lists it as injectable for osteomyelitis, by mouth for respiratory infections and they do say it can cause dysbiosis (meaning it can kill off to much of the good gut bacteria, leaving the field open to opportunistic bad bacteria). http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Common_drug_dosages_for_rabbits

I’m sorry I don’t know anything useful. Bordetella bronchseptica is a difficult bacterium because it has the means to kill all other competing bacteria and thereby effectively colonize the respiratory tract. It’s much more common in guinea pigs than in rabbits.

Your vet seems very meticulous in that they did a susceptibility test. Have they suggested any other, more alternative, therapy to just manage the situation by strengthening Olly’s own immune defense so that he might be able to fight this off/keep it in check without heavy antibiotics? Some buns have chronic pasteurella that can’t be eradicated but managed so that the bun can live a good life anyway. But in such cases I think Baytril has some effect at least, and the strain of bordetella your bun has seems resistant to Baytril. 

[jerseygirl]

Can you nebulize the athizromycin like you did the gentamicin? Do you do just plain saline sessions with the nebulizer also?

[jerseygirl]

From the little I’ve read on bordetella infections in rabbits, it’s not that common but if occurs, it is usually as a secondary infection. So if a rabbit had a poor immune system or it’s system was stressed due to another issue, bacteria present (such as bordetella or pasteurella) at a subclinical level begin to populate and cause a problem.
Were any of the cultures done when he was already on an antibiotic?

ETA: The culture didn’t show any fungus?

[Ollie’s Mom]

 

She suggested an Azithromycin suspension from the regular pharmacy, hence human meds since the one that was made for him at her office causes instant GI symptoms. Has anyone tried human meds on a rabbit? It makes me a little nervous. She said the Cipro & Aziothromycin were the only meds that came back as options for his infection. All three of his cultures were not during antibiotic treatment and only showed Bordetella. This is what she emailed to me:

“We can try a version of azithro that is available at pharmacies, already as a suspension, it has a short shelf life so I tend not to go that way since it is inconvenient (bottle has to be discarded/refilled after 10 days).

This was really the last one we could try, that the bacteria was sensitive to, that was on the ‘generally regarded as’ safe list for rabbits that could be given orally. We have some injectable options but there are risks with these:
-some are at risk for causing kidney damage
-some can also possibly cause digestive upset given by injection- these are the penicillin/ cephalosporin ones. They are a big ‘NO’ given orally; and some we have carefully tried injectable and had some success with as have my colleagues. But we are still nervous about them.

Or we could try ‘resistant-to’ to see if things work differently than in a Petri dish.

So, we have options. My first thought is that I call it in and we try another half dose with him that way before using trying the others or a ‘resistant’ one.”

I’m just really nervous he’ll have an adverse reaction and she’s an hour away from me. Please let me know which injections you have use with your buns without any issues. I’m a super overprotective bun mom and if anything happened to him it would kill me. ?

[Wick & Fable]

Wick has had flocillin shots with no bad reactions, including no marks or anything on his back from the shots. He acts perfectly normal afterwards, and if anything especially happy since he gets pet and treats after a shot.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[jerseygirl]

Ive had 2 of my rabbits have courses of penicillin G shots also. You do need to closely monitor after the 1st couple shots in case the rabbit is sensitve to it.

[BearMom]

Hello!

My bunny, Jack, is on Azithromycin. He gets the suspension (human meds). He did have GI problems when he first started it. I gave him a full dose and he had a very obviously upset tummy and the most tiny poops I’ve ever seen, so I stopped it at first. However, I was able to get ahold of my vet the next Monday and she suggested doing a half dose and continuing the meds even if his stomach was upset as long as he was willing to eat at least something and go to the bathroom, even if it was tiny poops/less poops. I guess they often react badly to the first couple doses, but get used to it after that and the worst of the tummy ache is right after taking the meds. 

I started Jack on the half dose and he still had an upset tummy, but it wasn’t as bad. I made sure to only give him the meds after he had his evening salad, so his tummy was very full. That seemed to help. Then by bedtime he was willing to eat his pellets. His eating and pooping was not 100% the first couple days, but then he seemed fine. I was able to slowly work him up to the full dose and he has been on that with no major problems for 3 weeks now. This med cleared an abscess that we had been battling in his lower jaw for months, so it’s a heavy hitter. Seems worth pushing through if you can. 

If he hadn’t been able to handle the meds, my doc was going to try the pen-g shots next. I guess they treat almost exactly the same strains of bacteria. Something that might be worth considering in your case, even if it didn’t come back on the test. 

Hope that helps!

[BearMom]

Oh, Jack also gets pain meds. If it is causing stomach cramps, that is something to consider as well. Your baby might tolerate it better if they have something to help with the discomfort. 

[Ollie’s Mom]

What breed of rabbit is Wick and how much does he weigh? Was it is series of shots and how often?

[Ollie’s Mom]

Hi Jacks Mom!

That’s exactly how it happens with Ollie! Even researching Azithro it says it has a low incidence of GI issues however Oliver’s were immediate. So you get your dose from a regular pharmacy I’m guessing? May I ask the breed and weight of Jack and how many mgs and size dose your vet prescribed? Does it only keep for 10 days like my vet stated? 

Ollie tolerated Cipro so well which was twice a day and I gave to him mixed with a little banana, plus the vet used banana flavoring because my little guy is really tough to give meds to…however it’s not working. The Azi is only once a day and the first time I gave a full dose he didn’t eat for a over day which is bad because my little guy is a big eater and enjoys 2 organic salads a day, plus oat hay and pellets…none he would touch. The second time I gave a little less than half and almost right away he was symptomatic (he does this twisting thing like he’s pushing his belly down and then keeps jumping in his litter box, that’s how I know there’s an issue). However, with the half dose he did eat sooner so maybe your suggestion of waiting until he’s eaten quite a bit and working up to a full dose may work…I just get so nervous but he can’t continues to have sinus issues either. 

 How long did it take you to work up to a full dose? Did you break it up throughout the day or just increase it each day/every couple of days?

How do you give Jack his meds? What pain meds do you give him? I have baby gas drops here that I haven’t tried yet. Ollie can’t be held down or even swaddled unfortunately so you can imagine how impossible it is to try and give him something orally that he doesn’t want to take on his own.

Thank you so much for the info!

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By jerseygirl on 11/02/2017 10:37 PM

Ive had 2 of my rabbits have courses of penicillin G shots also. You do need to closely monitor after the 1st couple shots in case the rabbit is sensitve to it.

Hi JerseyGirl,

What did you rabbits have the shots for? Did they have any adverse reactions?

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By bam on 11/01/2017 2:40 AM

Sometimes injections are better because they don’t have to use the GI route. Some rabbit antibiotics can only be given as injections because the rabbit GI tract can’t handle them. That said, Medirabbit doesn’t mention azitromycin as an injectable and RabbitWiki lists it as injectable for osteomyelitis, by mouth for respiratory infections and they do say it can cause dysbiosis (meaning it can kill off to much of the good gut bacteria, leaving the field open to opportunistic bad bacteria). http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Common_drug_dosages_for_rabbits

I’m sorry I don’t know anything useful. Bordetella bronchseptica is a difficult bacterium because it has the means to kill all other competing bacteria and thereby effectively colonize the respiratory tract. It’s much more common in guinea pigs than in rabbits.

Your vet seems very meticulous in that they did a susceptibility test. Have they suggested any other, more alternative, therapy to just manage the situation by strengthening Olly’s own immune defense so that he might be able to fight this off/keep it in check without heavy antibiotics? Some buns have chronic pasteurella that can’t be eradicated but managed so that the bun can live a good life anyway. But in such cases I think Baytril has some effect at least, and the strain of bordetella your bun has seems resistant to Baytril. 

Hi Bam,

What alternative therapy treatments are there for buns? He gets Benebac and I have an herbal mix from Small Pet Select which he doesn’t always eat on a regular basis. I’d love to hear about other options as well. It’s so frustrating because besides his sinus issues he’s a very good eater, pooper and is an active and happy guy.

[BearMom]

Yeah, seems like it might not be that uncommon of a side effect. I do get it from the vet as she had it in stock, but she mentioned that if she didn’t I would have to get it at the pharmacy. The med I have is 200mg per 5ml, and Jack gets 1ml once a day. He is a 3.7 lbs Holland Lop. She said I could use it for 2 weeks even though the bottle does say 10 days. She said the effectiveness starts to go down after 10 days, but it’s not like it goes bad and will make him sick. It is cherry flavored and although he fought me giving him the first couple doses, he realized it actually tastes good and now begs for it! I think it just smells funny! I managed to give it to him by holding him up with his back against my chest and his back feet standing on my table. He doesn’t squirm much then because it’s slippery, but I know that if he slips from me the table is right there. It’s kinda like he is standing on his back legs but with his back against me and my supporting his front legs. 

I worked his dose up over a week. First few days just 0.5ml, then went up 0.1 per day until he was at his full 1ml dose. Taking it on a fully belly really helped and I think that is recommended for this med anyway. Worst case if they take it on a full belly, at least you know they already have food in ’em! I had critical care on hand just in case. He did the same thing with pushing his belly down to the ground and then in and out of the box. By the time I gave him his 3rd half dose, he seemed completely fine with it. Still the occasional small poop, but he eats like crazy. We also got good news today that his other abscess is gone too! So this med is doing the trick. He is on it one more week just in case, and if still no infection, he comes off of it. Considering he has been battling abscesses for over a year, this is amazing for us. 

Jack gets metacam for pain, which seems to be the standard pain med for bunnies. 

[ergodic]

I have a rabbit George, who has chronic respiratory problems generally it is Bordetella. Mainly due to shedding allergies and dry air. causes him to be snotty which allows the bacteria to breed. He get preventive nebulization twice a day with acytelecstine and an antibody. It is more preventive . I am currently using cipro, but there has been a shortage as well as the acytelecstine. You might try adding something similar when nebulizing especially if snotty. It break up the snot which helps with the nebulizing.

[jerseygirl]

Posted By Ollie’s Mom on 11/03/2017 9:41 AM

Hi Jacks Mom!

That’s exactly how it happens with Ollie! Even researching Azithro it says it has a low incidence of GI issues however Oliver’s were immediate. So you get your dose from a regular pharmacy I’m guessing? May I ask the breed and weight of Jack and how many mgs and size dose your vet prescribed? Does it only keep for 10 days like my vet stated? 

Ollie tolerated Cipro so well which was twice a day and I gave to him mixed with a little banana, plus the vet used banana flavoring because my little guy is really tough to give meds to…however it’s not working. The Azi is only once a day and the first time I gave a full dose he didn’t eat for a over day which is bad because my little guy is a big eater and enjoys 2 organic salads a day, plus oat hay and pellets…none he would touch. The second time I gave a little less than half and almost right away he was symptomatic (he does this twisting thing like he’s pushing his belly down and then keeps jumping in his litter box, that’s how I know there’s an issue). However, with the half dose he did eat sooner so maybe your suggestion of waiting until he’s eaten quite a bit and working up to a full dose may work…I just get so nervous but he can’t continues to have sinus issues either. 

 How long did it take you to work up to a full dose? Did you break it up throughout the day or just increase it each day/every couple of days?

How do you give Jack his meds? What pain meds do you give him? I have baby gas drops here that I haven’t tried yet. Ollie can’t be held down or even swaddled unfortunately so you can imagine how impossible it is to try and give him something orally that he doesn’t want to take on his own.

Thank you so much for the info!

Hi Ollie’s Mom

The symptoms you describe there are exactly like when a bun has pain from gas, so I think giving the baby gas drops would be worth a go to see if it helps. Alternatively, chat with vet about giving him Buscopan (buscopan compositum aka Butylscopolamine,

Hyoscine) if you see him do this – It may be that it’s more spasms he’s experiencing. 

ETA: Actually, if the vet gives the Okay for Buscopan, Id give that and not worry about the gas drops – especially if you are seeing the symptoms that quickly after giving the antibiotic. 

For giving oral meds, have you tried having him up on a countertop? It may be easier to lean over and hold him still to give them. They have less places to bolt when up high.

They had them for abscesses. They reacted fine while receiving the shots. Coincidentally, both developed some cystitis months after being off meds.  In hindsight, I do wonder if I had given probiotics consistently after long antibiotic treatment, whether I could have heading that off. Or was it just that there immune systems weren’t running at optimum and that left them to develop other issues?  Idk. 

[jerseygirl]

Posted By ergodic on 11/03/2017 7:02 PM

I have a rabbit George, who has chronic respiratory problems generally it is Bordetella. Mainly due to shedding allergies and dry air. causes him to be snotty which allows the bacteria to breed. He get preventive nebulization twice a day with acytelecstine and an antibody. It is more preventive . I am currently using cipro, but there has been a shortage as well as the acytelecstine. You might try adding something similar when nebulizing especially if snotty. It break up the snot which helps with the nebulizing.

I read several months back about acytelecstine. It was something recommended by Randy Atkins. He use to give advice on the now defunct  AllExperts site. 

Do you use acytelecstine eye drops  in the nebulizer or did you have to get something made up? 

@Jacks_mom, fantastic that you found a solution that worked for Jack. Thanks for posting about it.  Hopefully the same will be sucessful for Ollie also. 

[Bam]

Acetylcysteine sounds like a great idea. You can also use bisolvon with bunnies (bromhexine). Both acetylcysteine and bromhexin helps thin out mucus. Does he have any trouble breathing?

Sometimes Metacam is given to reduce inflammatory swelling of the airways in a bun. When humans have sinus issues, we get corticosteroids to “un-swell” the lining inside the sinuses, so that snot can flood freely like it should, and get through the very narrow openings into the nose, but buns shouldn’t have corticosteroids except as a very last resort for life threatening conditions. Metacam is an anti-inflammatory med that buns can have (it’s mostly thought of as painkiller). One of the problems bordetella bronchiseptica causes is dysfunction of the cilia, the little “hairs” in the mucosa that helps move mucus. Bordetella likes to colonize those, and that disturbs their important function. So opening things up by making the snot thinner + the airways less congested could potentially be helpful. As everything else, it should be discussed with a good rabbit vet though.

Efforts at strenghtening the bun’s own immune defense with for example echinacea or turmeric/curcumin could perhaps have some little bit of effect, but those are of course alternative herbal treatments.

[ergodic]

No I get the IV solution, which has a shortage at the moment. at least in the states. So I simply have to syringe it out. The direction say throw it away after two days open but my vet said it works fine as long as you refrigerate it.

Other then those suggested already, you might also try musinex, my vet put George on it an it seems to help. You can get compounded in a flavor your rabbit like. As to bordetella it is very common in rabbits, it may be the sign that there are actually other issues. George seems to be allergic to himself when ever he sheds or it is dry, his nose runs which makes a a excellent breeding ground for bacteria. Have you done or though about a CT scan?

[Ollie’s Mom]

Hi Ergodic,

I feel like Ollie has allergies too especially since his symptoms can be somewhat intermittent and I definitely notice they increase when I clean, etc. How long has he been on Cipro? I wish it worked for Olli because it was well tolerated and he never had any symptoms, however he’s has one 14 day round which worked but then it came back and then 2 14-day rounds that started to work but symptoms came back. He had a nasal flush which seemed to make things worse at least for the first few days. Is George on antibiotics all the time? How did they find out for sure it was allergies? Is he on nebs twice daily for life?

Thank you for your help!

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By Jacks_mom on 11/03/2017 8:05 AM

Hello!

My bunny, Jack, is on Azithromycin. He gets the suspension (human meds). He did have GI problems when he first started it. I gave him a full dose and he had a very obviously upset tummy and the most tiny poops I’ve ever seen, so I stopped it at first. However, I was able to get ahold of my vet the next Monday and she suggested doing a half dose and continuing the meds even if his stomach was upset as long as he was willing to eat at least something and go to the bathroom, even if it was tiny poops/less poops. I guess they often react badly to the first couple doses, but get used to it after that and the worst of the tummy ache is right after taking the meds. 

I started Jack on the half dose and he still had an upset tummy, but it wasn’t as bad. I made sure to only give him the meds after he had his evening salad, so his tummy was very full. That seemed to help. Then by bedtime he was willing to eat his pellets. His eating and pooping was not 100% the first couple days, but then he seemed fine. I was able to slowly work him up to the full dose and he has been on that with no major problems for 3 weeks now. This med cleared an abscess that we had been battling in his lower jaw for months, so it’s a heavy hitter. Seems worth pushing through if you can. 

If he hadn’t been able to handle the meds, my doc was going to try the pen-g shots next. I guess they treat almost exactly the same strains of bacteria. Something that might be worth considering in your case, even if it didn’t come back on the test. 

Hope that helps!

It looks like I’ll have to push through because he can’t keep having these symptoms despite everything else being normal. I just pray it goes well because he didn’t touch food for over 12 hours with the full dose of Azithro and he’s a big eater normally. His appetite has changed a little since then also. He still eats most of his salads (used to be everything) but it takes him much longer to finish them so giving it on a full belly and being able to watch him will be challenging. I have some time off work coming up so I’ll start it then in hopes he won’t continue to have issues after a few days like Jack. 

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By jerseygirl on 11/04/2017 12:25 AM

Posted By Ollie’s Mom on 11/03/2017 9:41 AM

Hi Jacks Mom!

That’s exactly how it happens with Ollie! Even researching Azithro it says it has a low incidence of GI issues however Oliver’s were immediate. So you get your dose from a regular pharmacy I’m guessing? May I ask the breed and weight of Jack and how many mgs and size dose your vet prescribed? Does it only keep for 10 days like my vet stated? 

Ollie tolerated Cipro so well which was twice a day and I gave to him mixed with a little banana, plus the vet used banana flavoring because my little guy is really tough to give meds to…however it’s not working. The Azi is only once a day and the first time I gave a full dose he didn’t eat for a over day which is bad because my little guy is a big eater and enjoys 2 organic salads a day, plus oat hay and pellets…none he would touch. The second time I gave a little less than half and almost right away he was symptomatic (he does this twisting thing like he’s pushing his belly down and then keeps jumping in his litter box, that’s how I know there’s an issue). However, with the half dose he did eat sooner so maybe your suggestion of waiting until he’s eaten quite a bit and working up to a full dose may work…I just get so nervous but he can’t continues to have sinus issues either. 

 How long did it take you to work up to a full dose? Did you break it up throughout the day or just increase it each day/every couple of days?

How do you give Jack his meds? What pain meds do you give him? I have baby gas drops here that I haven’t tried yet. Ollie can’t be held down or even swaddled unfortunately so you can imagine how impossible it is to try and give him something orally that he doesn’t want to take on his own.

Thank you so much for the info!

Hi Ollie’s Mom

The symptoms you describe there are exactly like when a bun has pain from gas, so I think giving the baby gas drops would be worth a go to see if it helps. Alternatively, chat with vet about giving him Buscopan (buscopan compositum aka Butylscopolamine,

Hyoscine) if you see him do this – It may be that it’s more spasms he’s experiencing. 

ETA: Actually, if the vet gives the Okay for Buscopan, Id give that and not worry about the gas drops – especially if you are seeing the symptoms that quickly after giving the antibiotic. 

For giving oral meds, have you tried having him up on a countertop? It may be easier to lean over and hold him still to give them. They have less places to bolt when up high.

They had them for abscesses. They reacted fine while receiving the shots. Coincidentally, both developed some cystitis months after being off meds.  In hindsight, I do wonder if I had given probiotics consistently after long antibiotic treatment, whether I could have heading that off. Or was it just that there immune systems weren’t running at optimum and that left them to develop other issues?  Idk. 

Hi Jersey girl,

I’ll ask about Bucospan as the symptoms are definitely right after getting the Azithro. Ollie is a very sweet boy but will have nothing to do with being picked up or held and will hurt himself to get away. I have to mix his meds in something for him to take. With the Cipro I put it on banana twice a day and he ate it happily, even begged for it. However when I tried to give him a little banana after his first reaction with Azithro, even though the med wasn’t on it, he had GI issues with plain banana which is so weird. All I can think is the Azithro made his stomach very sensitive and bananas are more difficult to digest. I myself get bad stomachaches from bananas. The 2nd time I gave him a half dose mixed in organic applesauce which caused GI issues right away but he did start eating again within an hour so I’m hoping starting with a smaller dose and working up each day will help. I definitely have to be around though for any GI episodes or he’ll just curl up in a ball and not move or eat. I have to encourage movement, give belly rubs and he only wants carrot tops until his belly feels better.

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By bam on 11/04/2017 4:33 AM

Acetylcysteine sounds like a great idea. You can also use bisolvon with bunnies (bromhexine). Both acetylcysteine and bromhexin helps thin out mucus. Does he have any trouble breathing?

Sometimes Metacam is given to reduce inflammatory swelling of the airways in a bun. When humans have sinus issues, we get corticosteroids to “un-swell” the lining inside the sinuses, so that snot can flood freely like it should, and get through the very narrow openings into the nose, but buns shouldn’t have corticosteroids except as a very last resort for life threatening conditions. Metacam is an anti-inflammatory med that buns can have (it’s mostly thought of as painkiller). One of the problems bordetella bronchiseptica causes is dysfunction of the cilia, the little “hairs” in the mucosa that helps move mucus. Bordetella likes to colonize those, and that disturbs their important function. So opening things up by making the snot thinner + the airways less congested could potentially be helpful. As everything else, it should be discussed with a good rabbit vet though.

Efforts at strenghtening the bun’s own immune defense with for example echinacea or turmeric/curcumin could perhaps have some little bit of effect, but those are of course alternative herbal treatments.

Hi Bam,

I’ll have to ask about the acetylcysteine, bromhexim and Metacam. I’m curious if everyone on here can give their buns oral meds easily and if my Ollie is the only one that will take it mixed in something??? He doesn’t have major problems breathing (i.e.: open mouth, head up or any posturing), however you can here the congestion or whistling sometimes but it’s intermittent. I really feel like allergies are playing a role in his symptoms as well.

[Bam]

Practically no buns take medicines or syringes CC without putting up a fight. There are exceptions, my Bam loved his banana-caramel Bactrim and he likes dog Metacam. He hates baby gasdrops.

Bam had Bactrim and bricanyl for a lung infection in late August. Bricanyl (terbutaline) is a powerful bronchodilator. If you can hear congestion/whistling, bricanyl might be a good idea.

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By bam on 11/07/2017 10:12 AM

Practically no buns take medicines or syringes CC without putting up a fight. There are exceptions, my Bam loved his banana-caramel Bactrim and he likes dog Metacam. He hates baby gasdrops.

Bam had Bactrim and bricanyl for a lung infection in late August. Bricanyl (terbutaline) is a powerful bronchodilator. If you can hear congestion/whistling, bricanyl might be a good idea.

I couldn’t get Ollie to take the baby gas drops either. Do you Hold Bam to give him PO meds or mix in something he likes? 

[ergodic]

Yes George is on nebs twice a day for life. As to why do we think it is allergies. He has sneezed white goop while being on cipro, we have cultured it and there is no bacteria growth indicating it more than likely irritation. Ollie sound like George, as soon as we take him off right back to an infection. Rabbits with short noses.

[Bam]

My significant other holds Bam for meds he hates. It’s best to do a burrito, not just to restrain the bun but because being wrapped tightly in a towel has a camling effect same as thunder shirts for dogs. Bam then sits in my SO’s lap and I handle the syringe with one hand and the little bunny head with the other.

For the whole battery of meds Bam had to have for his lung infection I gave a little yummy Bactrim, then his ranitidine (not yummy), then a bit of Bactrim, then the Bricanyl, then the Metacam etc, so he got like yummy med, disgusting med, yummy med and so on until he’d had all of it.

For CC I find the apple/banana flavor goes down better than the regular kind (I think that’s flavored with aniseed or fennel or sth). For baby gas drops he reluctantly accepts Infacol (orange flavor) but the Minifom (also simethicone) that I can buy here is what he hates most in the world. I don’t know why because I’ve tasted it and it has a sweet taste – I presume so babies will like it.

After meds there’s always a treat, of course. Then I get foot-flicked good and proper.

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By ergodic on 11/07/2017 11:31 AM

Yes George is on nebs twice a day for life. As to why do we think it is allergies. He has sneezed white goop while being on cipro, we have cultured it and there is no bacteria growth indicating it more than likely irritation. Ollie sound like George, as soon as we take him off right back to an infection. Rabbits with short noses.

Is Cipro the only antibiotic you’ve tried with George? Is George the tan and white Holland lop in the pic, same as Ollie?

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By bam on 11/07/2017 11:36 AM

My significant other holds Bam for meds he hates. It’s best to do a burrito, not just to restrain the bun but because being wrapped tightly in a towel has a camling effect same as thunder shirts for dogs. Bam then sits in my SO’s lap and I handle the syringe with one hand and the little bunny head with the other.

For the whole battery of meds Bam had to have for his lung infection I gave a little yummy Bactrim, then his ranitidine (not yummy), then a bit of Bactrim, then the Bricanyl, then the Metacam etc, so he got like yummy med, disgusting med, yummy med and so on until he’d had all of it.

For CC I find the apple/banana flavor goes down better than the regular kind (I think that’s flavored with aniseed or fennel or sth). For baby gas drops he reluctantly accepts Infacol (orange flavor) but the Minifom (also simethicone) that I can buy here is what he hates most in the world. I don’t know why because I’ve tasted it and it has a sweet taste – I presume so babies will like it.

After meds there’s always a treat, of course. Then I get foot-flicked good and proper.

That sounds like a great method! Is bam done with his meds? How long did he take to recover and did he have any GI issues?

[Bam]

He had Bactrim for 2 weeks and an eye ointment (fucithalmic), bricanyl for 5 days, Metacam and ranitidine for a week. After the 2 weeks all symptoms had cleared up. That was mid-September. He didn’t have a very serious case I think, he never lost his appetite or anything, he just made odd breathing sounds when he was upset or when he was eating sth extra yummy. But he was seen by a very good rabbit vet and had a full blood panel and chest- and head x-rays, so he def needed the treatment he got. He doesn’t make any sounds now. He never had any GI issues, the ranitidine he got was for the prevention of GI side effects of the meds and I guess it must’ve worked =)

[Wick & Fable]

Rabbits have varying reactions to different medicines, but it is good to figure out the specific method that works for you and your bun when you do run into a medication that’s less than loved…

Wick’s preferences are atypical, and I’ll include information about complications and recoveries for an FYI (all listed antibiotics were paired with a powder probiotic an hour afterwards):
1) Bactrim (strawberry/cherry-flavored; don’t remember which): He loved this and had no bad reactions.
2) Baytril: He did not like this at all, so the forceful approach of having his bum against my knees on the ground while I had a hand hold on his neck to prevent squirming was required. Sounds invasive, but it was a gentle approach. No bad reactions.
3) Flagyl (banana-flavored): So much hate. Absolutely detested it, where he would flip and turn even using the forceful approach. This was because it caused him very bad gastric distress after every dose, so it was discontinued very quickly and replaced with a shot instead.
4) Itraconazole: He loves this. It requires the largest dose compared to his past prescriptions, and he loves every drop of it, haha. No bad reactions.

Generally, a probiotic-antibiotic dual approach does well to dispel potential GI issues, from my experience.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Ollie’s Mom]

Posted By Wick on 11/07/2017 3:54 PM
Rabbits have varying reactions to different medicines, but it is good to figure out the specific method that works for you and your bun when you do run into a medication that’s less than loved…

Wick’s preferences are atypical, and I’ll include information about complications and recoveries for an FYI (all listed antibiotics were paired with a powder probiotic an hour afterwards):
1) Bactrim (strawberry/cherry-flavored; don’t remember which): He loved this and had no bad reactions.
2) Baytril: He did not like this at all, so the forceful approach of having his bum against my knees on the ground while I had a hand hold on his neck to prevent squirming was required. Sounds invasive, but it was a gentle approach. No bad reactions.
3) Flagyl (banana-flavored): So much hate. Absolutely detested it, where he would flip and turn even using the forceful approach. This was because it caused him very bad gastric distress after every dose, so it was discontinued very quickly and replaced with a shot instead.
4) Itraconazole: He loves this. It requires the largest dose compared to his past prescriptions, and he loves every drop of it, haha. No bad reactions.

Generally, a probiotic-antibiotic dual approach does well to dispel potential GI issues, from my experience.

What powdered probiotic do you use & how do you give it to him? I use Benebac on a regular basis & more frequently when he’s on antibiotics but I’m not sure I notice much of a difference. It’s in syringe form & like a gel/paste which he loves. I think it smells awful. Lol. My vet is calling me tonight so we can discuss trying the Azithromycin again but in smaller doses & working up to the full dose. He has GI issues on it so I’m trying to minimize them as much as possible.

May I ask if you’re in the US or abroad? From reading different blogs I feel there’s a lot more coming from England as far as rabbit savvy vets, etc.

[Wick & Fable]

I am northeastern US, and if that’s somewhere within your area, let me know because I highly recommend my vet for all exotic pets. It’s actually primary for birds, but handle rabbits wonderfully .. making me amazed at how great the bird clients are probably treated since the rabbit experience is so high as well!

The bottles and bills never state the name of the probiotic, but it’s a dry powder that’s tan. Wick gets it twice a day on a wet piece of romaine. It’s just a sprinkle, so very doable and probably not noticeable. Wick just knows now that an hour after getting medicine, he gets a random veggie piece. The powder stays in the fridge.

The only antibiotic it didn’t help with was Flagyl, which puzzled Wick’s vet, so it could just be a Wick-specific reaction.

He is both resilient but sensitive, haha.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Wick & Fable]

Thinking further, adminstration of the probiotic in relation to the antibiotic is important too. Not at the same time because, well the antibiotic would kill the probiotics before they stood a chance! I always do at least a half hour, usually an hour to 1.5hrs after an antibiotic dose.

Additionally, unsure of the different made, but Wick has always gotten raw apple cider vinegar with the mother in his water since I’ve had him. The components in apple cider vinegar mother is supposed to help balance stomach pH and keep everything regulated! Just a small splash in his water bowl, shaking up the bottle before splashing because the mother settled to the bottom of the bottle.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[ergodic]

Yes that is George, we actually tried and used multiple different antibiotics. Cipro does not lead to liver problems like many of the other antibiotics. As soon as he goes off his congestion leads to a URI.

[Author]

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