Bonding with Aggressive Female

[mrmac]

Today is not a good day…This morning I woke up to find Dennis sitting on the couch eating hay, covered in tufts! I went over to the pen and Delilah is sitting in his side of the pen! I have no idea how she got in, she had to have jumped the 30 inch x-pen! They have been housed next to each other with a sheet covering the shared barrier so they cannot see each other but get used to the smells for bonding. I was soooo mad at Delilah! Their earlier meetings were not terrible, but weren’t great either and they had some nipping and tiffs before. Well they got into a fight and Dennis now has two big chunks of skin missing. I think he was getting so beat up that he had to escape by jumping the 30 inch fence! They are just surface wounds, like the fur got ripped off and the skin just came with it, but they are a decent size. I cleaned them with some diluted peroxide and put neosporin on them, is there anything else I can do?! Poor little guy, I feel so awful! I called the vet to see what they said and they told me to use the peroxide and neosporin, clean it a couple times a day, and really watch them. Dennis still ate his veggies and hay and is pottying normally. The boo boo’s are tender though, he doesn’t like me messing with them, but is isn’t acting uncomfortable. My other problem now is that I tried to put Dennis back into his side of the pen adn he clawed and jumped at me to have me pick him up and hold him. He is now mortified of being in his pen because he thinks she is still in there and will attack him. I set him back down and he jumped over the pen side again to get away. it is so sad…I don’t know how I did not hear it happen, I was asleep. I just feel like SUCH a bad bunny mom! I was so upset this morning. I just feel like I let Dennis get hurt, if I had just gotten up this morning, like I thought about doing, instead of going back to bed it would have never happened! Now what?! I don’t trust leaving him next to Delilah, it was very weird that she went into HIS pen anyway (on a side note, this may have worked out some of the dominance issues they were having during sessions…it didn’t happen in a good way, but a thought maybe…)…Trying not to cry about it all…

[Monkeybun]

Oh no! Poor little man Bad Delilah! Maybe you should move his pen and totally rearrange it, to make him more comfortable. Healing vibes for Dennis!

[mrmac]

I yelled at Delilah when I saw her in the pen. She knew instantly that she did something wrong and put her head down. She is just so nasty sometimes…He has been in the bredroom the rest of the day today. He was actually living in the bedroom and we moved him next to their pen. I think he will have to go back into the bedroom, he is just too nervous to be near the trio’s pen.

[jerseygirl]

I think he will have to go back into the bedroom, he is just too nervous to be near the trio’s pen.

That’s a good idea. Keep them well separated for a week or so. It’ll give him a chance to heal up nice also.

Did Delilah get any injuries also?  

This morning I woke up to find Dennis sitting on the couch eating hay, covered in tufts!

For what it’s worth, it sounds like Dennis is coping with it. Not a nice thing to discover for you. But it appears he’s getting on. Don’t blame yourself. When rabbits have an intention they just find a way I’m sure!

[bunnytowne]

Oh poor little bunny.     They can be terrors sometimes. 

[mrmac]

Delilah’s fur is so thick that she didn’t get hurt at all though I know Dennis fought her back. Rex hair is just not good for bunny fights! Dennis is dealing, I am sure the boo boo’s hurt a little. He is still eating, drinking, and pottying. He is just such a good bunny, it sucks he had to get hurt.

[MimzMum]

Poor Dennis! ((((((((((((((((((snuggles)))))))))))))))) How scary for both of you!

Quick healing vibes to him! ((((((((((((((Dennis))))))))))))))))))

[Deleted User]

This was an accident. They need time off from each other now. Dennis will calm down and you can then start fresh with a new game plan.

Your female rabbit Delilah is the resident queen of your warren (also known as your apartment). She will not let up in her surroundings. She must be taken outside of her turf for bonding. Take a whole month off from trying anything with Delilah and Dennis. Bond Davey with Dennis instead because Delilah is in love with Davey. Concurrently, deepen the bond between Dexter and Delilah. Cement thise two pairs respectively but allow visits, daily, between Davey (with Dennis’ scent on him) and Dexter/Delilah.

If you don’t move residences in the near future, start up with Delilah and Dennis in car rides after the moth is up, and wet-feet sessions in the bathtub.

Te beginning of any bond can be extremely negative but it can still work out with patience and sessions in the right place!

[mrmac]

Yes it will just be a matter of time now. Dennis needs to heal and hubby needs time to cool off over the whole thing! He was so mad (at the bunnies) that this happened! Delilah is the queen *shutter* but she needs to get off her high horse at least a little bit!

[Deleted User]

Mac, I reread what you wrote and I see a positive to this. Delilah did not send Dennis to the vet and what is most important: Dennis got ouf the pen, HIS place, to get away. It means he was backing down. You will definitely need an NIC bonding cube. In it you can take them for sessions anywhere: the car, the petstore possibly for a cart ride (if there are no dogs in the store), the bathtub with simulated ‘rain’ from your shower… your laundromat… yes, I think there is a positive in finding Dennis on your couch rather than slaughtered in his pen! but work on the Dennis/Dexter/Davey-trio bond and the Dennis/Davey cement (living together).
I also hope you are feeling better.

[mrmac]

Yes I am feeling better. I do see it too as a positive thing that Dennis jumped out. He is a little scrapper and will stand up for himself, which I think he did, but it got too intense for him. He does not like to fight, he will run away to avoid confrontation. He showed this in a bathroom session earlier. Getting Davey over on Dennis will be important. Davey right now will let Delilah know, with a nip, when she is behaving unacceptably towards Dexter or in general. He is the only one that can keep her under control! Davey where were you in all of this!

[Deleted User]

Yes, what was Davey doing when this went down? I’m guessing he was in a sleep wobble! LOL

[Deleted User]

oh, also it reminds me of my all-male quartet: Roger would not tolerate Valmore’s aggressive advances on Clifford and this was what made their bond possible!

[Deleted User]

may I move your thread here into the bonding section?

[mrmac]

Yes I was just going to ask if someone could move it there!

I don’t know what Davey was doing! Had he been there he would have jumped in. I think once she got over there she got into a panic too because she was stuck adn couldn’t get back.

[mrmac]

Petzy, could you change the title of this to something a little better sounding that “Wounds”! It is sounding a little dramatic now!

[Deleted User]

you can do it, mac: go into edit in your very first post and it should allow you to change it.

[Deleted User]

how about ‘Quartet with Nasty Female’

[mrmac]

Here is a little info about the small sessions we have had so far: (all sessions have been on the bathroom floor, blocked into a smaller area)

First Meeting of Dexter and Dennis:
Dexter likes him, no aggression. Both thumped at first, Dexter groomed Dennis, Dennis flopped. Dex made one little nip at Dennis which set Dennis off into a little nipping thing. Turned the blow dryer on, stopped them in their tracks. When they first approach each other is when Dexter gets nervous and will thump or give him a little nip. They have had a couple other small sessions that have all been ok, Dexter grooms him, Dennis bit raisins off Dexter’s head. Only one sessions hasn’t worked out with them, and Dexter was in a weird mood that day and was not acting himself so we ended it on a good note. They both sit next to eachother for mutual pets, and will both take treats.

Davey and Dennis:
Davey likes him. No aggression at all, Davey even gave him a couple licks which is big for Davey! It took him weeks to groom Dexter, even just one little lick, and we had to use food on his face to get him to start. I think it was very positive. They sat next to each other for mutual pets. Davey’s first meeting with him he was too nervous to eat a treat, but after that he would eat them.

Delilah and Dennis:
Read the first post. She is interested in him and would go visit him in the bedroom (this was before the fight). They had a couple little tiffs through the pen bars, but nothing like she was when we were bonding with Dexter. She seemed like she was much better with him than she was with Dexter, but I guess not! Hopefully taking some time off from Delilah and Dennis bonding will help, although they probably have worked out most of their bonding issues, albeit not in the most ideal way.

 

[Deleted User]

well, out of three buns looks like two are going to bond to Dennis with the proper sessions. So that’s an upside! I would not let up at all, but make the Davey/Dennis bond happen now. what space ar you using?

[mrmac]

We are using the bathroom/bath tub.

[Deleted User]

Do you have a bonding cube or similar? A thing that you can carry and take on trips? I’m asking because you will want some sessions outside the bathroom at some point (not now where Dennis is healing), and I would recommend to play it very safe so Dennis will not experience any territorially motivated dominances again from either Davey or Dexter even. I would take them shopping with you but you need more than a box for that, a cube or a top-loading carrier.

Another thing that came into my mind, Mac, is your HRS chapter. Let’s say you get your three boys bonded, and want to look at bonding with Delilah again. I would most derfinitely take Dennis and Delilah on a trip to the HRS store where they wouldn’t mind. It would be so neutral. I have a good feeling about this!

[Deleted User]

I should add, I don’t mean for the HRS to bond them for you, I just mean for you to lug them around while you shop there anyways.

[mrmac]

Yes he is very sensitive to bunnies approaching him now, he gets very scared and leaps over. His boldness has left him around other rabbits. I am going to try and get a pack of the grids or fashion something similar. Dex and Dennis have gone on one car ride together around the complex. Dennis tries to leap out of the box so we have to keep the top shut, so the cube would defintely be better for him. I think for now we will end up with two working trios, one with Delilah, Davey and Dex; and one with the boys. Even if they stay like that at least they can be interchanged between everybun. The boys will be great together- Dennis has already been seriously groomed by Dex and Davey a little bit. They will be lugged around a lot in the next few months. Anytime we go on a quick errand they will, most of the time, come with us.

[Deleted User]

and remember even iif there iis no grooming, it can still be a bond. Did I tell you that Neigey has never groomed anybun to this day?

[mrmac]

That is different. I have never heard of a bunny not grooming! I do worry though about it a little though because some of them are very demanding of grooms…

[Deleted User]

Most bunnies will groom but not all. If you do stress bonding they can overcome the frustration from unfulfilled grooming demands.

[mrmac]

Yes we will definitely be using the stress bonding with them.

[mrmac]

Well last night we moved Davey into the bedroom, sharing Dennis’ pen that I divided up. He will spend the nights in there with Dennis, but return to the trio’s pen during the day and for play times. I will just say that Davey was not thrilled about being stuck in that little space but he will get used to it. He was driving me crazy trying to fall asleep last night; chewing the wire, digging, all the noisy things that keep you up! I had to create my own divider. I used the top wire part of the pet store cages with one of the larger flaps opened up. The pen is made around our dresser. Dennis I do not have to worry about chewing the front of the drawers off but Davey is a nibbler so I had to “heavy duty” his side. Hubby suggested that Dennis wear a little doggy sweater to protect his boo boos, what a sight that would be! I told him, maybe just a little t-shirt instead!

Please excuse the mess on the dresser. Most of it is Dennis’ boo boo cleaning stuff

I put hay on either side to encourage them to eat together. Dennis didn’t care and ran right up and started chowing down, but Davey was still nervous.

[Deleted User]

How is Davey liking it today? You had to move him there to start him off with Dennis. How is Delilah reacting to Davey when he comes back to her?
Neat setup! A bedroom bunny ranch !

[mrmac]

Davey was much more relaxed when I put him in the pen last night. No frantic digging, wire biting, or thumping. Dennis pays no attention to him. They don’t ever get “close” to eachother through the divider but Davey will lay down and stretch out, leaving his bum and tail right up against the divider…nothing! Delilah does not react any differently to Davey when I put him back in the mornings at all. She knows if Davey smells funny he is allowed to because he is secretly the boss of her. Why can’t they just tell me who is the boss of this group! All these games!

[Deleted User]

So complicated! So glad to hear that delilah is OK with davey having the scent on him. It will work

[mrmac]

Today we moved Dexter into the bedroom full time now to try and get those two bonded. We rearranged the bedroom to give them a better bigger pen. There is no aggression what so ever between them, they are very interested in eachother and have had more interaction in one day than Dennis and Davey had in a week of him sleeping in there. We did a session and a car ride today. During the session Dexter is trying to be dominant over Dennis, and since the fight Dennis has become submissive- which is good. Dexter just doesn’t know how to act around him. He doesn’t know how to dominate another bunny. Dex will give Dennis a few little nips and a little chase, Dennis makes his weird little grunt/honk-thumps-then runs. Then I will sit them next to eachother and Dexter will start grooming him. Dennis has no clue when Dex pushes his head under his to do anything, which leads to Dex giving him a tiny nip. We have even let them run around in the bedroom together and Dex will chase a little but there is no all out fighting or posessiveness. I caught the loafed next to eachother through the divider today, weird…

The pen…Dont mind my fencing wire! It works for now! Getting another x-pen once they are bonded.

Dennis’ side of the pen…

Dexter’s side…(He has more toys in there now, it looks so boring in the picture!)

[Deleted User]

Posted By mrmac on 07/11/2010 08:19 PM

, Dennis makes his weird little grunt/honk-thumps-then runs.

that’s perfect! He is communicating that he wants no trouble!

[mrmac]

Dexter and Dennis are going to be easy. Today I did one bathroom session, the usual Dex grooming and small nips. They are starting to get a little possessive over the rung they are on so we out them in the kitchen and they ahve been in there for about 4 hours now. Dennis flopped, Dexter groomed, Dennis allowed Dex to mount him, ate hay/veggies together. A few pictures now and videos loading, so more to come!

 

[mrmac]

[mrmac]

I can’t get them to stack on top of eachother, sorry they make the page so wide.

[Deleted User]

i’ve only watched one and I want to call out INSTANT BOND!

Maddie, you deserve one, an easy bond, for once!!!! 

I’m so happy for Dexter, too, he has had to put up with so much bullying all this time.

 

[Deleted User]

that humping didn’t bother Dennis at all. I say cement them.

[Deleted User]

I would go with a larger space for these two for cementing, just my impression. Dexter doesn’t seem inclined to put a wild goose chase on Dennis and Dennis, having endured that aweful beating from Delilah, should get to dart off if he feels he needs to.

[mrmac]

Dexter is just a completely different bunny when he is not around her. He is not always watching over his shoulder of where she is, when she breathes, takes a step, wants to be in the litter box he is in, etc. He is just not on edge anymore. Davey and Delilah are kind of confused why he is missing (more Davey than her). Dex will still have play times with Davey mostly and her sometimes, but it will always lead to him getting picked on again. Just how Delilah is, which can get annoying sometimes.

[Deleted User]

Well, you don’t have to go for the quartet, they can be hard. Now you have two pairs! Congrats! But, in my experience, bunnies can change in different groups and environments. You might hold off with any quartet work until you move to a new place or something.
I have always believed my Mops to be the peaceable kind but he changed during my last bonding with him into a pretty nasty attacker. Rabbits have layers… they are impossible to predict.

[mrmac]

That is our thinking too. We may try the quartet at some point but only around when we move, hopefully towards the end of the year. We won’t let the trios bond break either with play dates. I think we may work with Dennis and Davey too once Dex and Dennis are more secure. We may end up with two working trios and then work with Delilah when we move. We are also running out of neutral spaces in this tiny apartment that will be especially important with Delilah. The hallyway is longer than the kitchen, so they will move there for bedtime. I now have a trio and two pairs with four bunnies! However that works?!

[Deleted User]

Rabbit bonding is a chapter in math text books now!

[mrmac]

I guess it is! Just today with Dex and Dennis I have seen more progress than after a month or so into the trio’s bond. Rexy bunnies unite!

[Deleted User]

I am a little upset here… because I have never had such an easy bond, even my easy bonds were harder than this… grrrrrrrrr…

[mrmac]

I guess we know how to pick good instant bonding pairs! Davey and Delilah were luck, but these two just seemed to fit. No marking poos or pee even on the first night, Dennis just took to him. You need an instant one! You definitely deserve one!

[Deleted User]

And no poowars now! 

–mrmac, I may have to delete this whole thread now because it is totally misleading about regular rabbit bonding reality!

No, I do not need an instant bond because even though easy it would mean more bunnies which I do not want. I am quite saturated with one quartet, .

 

[mrmac]

Yes your quartet is enough, for now.

I know! This thread wasn’t very helpful at all! It is not normal!

[Deleted User]

well, Dexter is quite an unusual bunny to begin with. I also wonder if the circumstance that he has always been picked on by Delilah has prevented him from truly mapping out his own territory. This would explain his laid-back reception of new Dennis.

[Deleted User]

Posted By mrmac on 07/12/2010 03:19 PM
  your quartet is enough, for now.

 

quit saying that! there aren’t going to be any more bunnies here!

[mrmac]

Your bunnies are happy just how it is!

[Deleted User]

oh…. you made a new signature. There you can actually see the different shades of them all.

[mrmac]

You can actually see all of them and their bodies in the pictures now. It was due for a change!

[Beka27]

Posted By Petzy on 07/12/2010 04:10 PM
oh…. you made a new signature. There you can actually see the different shades of them all.

 

Yes.  It’s like a color wheel…

 

 

 

… of brown.

 

 

 

 

 

[mrmac]

Haha yes, only brown. But EVERY shade of brown!

[mrmac]

Ok…little update: Dexter and Dennis were instant! They are now best buddies! Dennis has still not figured out how to groom but has turned to chinning Dexter! Dex looks a bit confused when he chins his butt! He chins his nose and the tips of his ears, he doesn’t chin much else whereas Dex chins EVERYTHING in sight! They love to cuddle on the bed, that I have had to cover with the “bunny sheet” because somebunny took to peeing on my side of the bed! We will work with the boys now and try for a “boys trio”. Delilah is just cooky! We have a stunt stuffed bunny/kangaroo looking thing that we move back and forth. We put it into the pen with Davey and Delilah, Delilah went nuts digging at it. Davey got mad at her and started chasing and giving her little tiny love nips! He keeps her under control!

We did a little test the other night. We put Delilah under the top wire part of a pet store cage in the bedroom doorway. Dexter went crazy! He does not like her now, especially with his new found confidence and dominance. His tail went straight out (totally weird looking!:laugh and he got all musky, eww! It is weird to see him act so boldly since he was always picked on so much. He is so much happier though. He is a changed bunny! He will allow you to approach him now and pet him. Before if you even stood up he would bolt somewhere away from Delilah (to avoid getting nipped) to hide. He is so much friendlier now, much more accepting of pets and attention. Some of Dennis’ attention seeking has rubbed off on him! We will have to turn our focus to Davey now, I also need to see how Dexter reacts to Davey now too.

[jerseygirl]

We have a stunt stuffed bunny/kangaroo looking thing

haha, I’m intrigued. Is it a Bilby? It’s tail is probably almost as long as Dexters.

[mrmac]

This is the one we have! I would like to call it a bunny but it is kind of off!

http://cgi.ebay.com/IKEA-Plush-Gray…dZViewItem

A Bilby is oddly adorable! One of those ‘so weird it is cute’ kind of animals! Yes its tail is almost as long as Dexters!

[jerseygirl]

Oh, that’s just a rex bunny isn’t it? Plush fur, longish face. I can see the kangarooness of it though.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I just read through this whole thread. How lucky you are to have Dexter and Dennis love each other so much! What a cute pair!

Petzy- How do you make a “bonding cube”. I’d like to make something for car trips.

[Deleted User]

Just six grid panels from a condo. You need to tie it up very strong though because it will bear the rabbits’ weight.

 

you want the top to open and close so I just tied it with a twine on one side and used a bolt snap to close the front. you don’t really need the bolt snap, I did because I did some outdoor sessions. ~

[Author]

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