Beans and Benny’s Bonding Journal

[leyley904]

 Okay I’ll start from the very beginning. 

I got Beans from a friend who was basically neglecting him due to pure ignorance (she didn’t intend to harm him, nor did she realize she was). He lived next to 2 larger buns who had ripped part of his nose off in the beginning. So he lived alone, outside, in a wire-bottomed, completely empty “cage”.

I would say about a month or so later, I adopted Benny from a rescue. I brought Beans and did a “bunny speed date” with Benny. Beans hadn’t been neutered, so there was lots of humping (not for dominance….). But Benny seemed “whatever” about it. So I brought him home. I guess I could say I was overly optimistic.

I got Beans neutered soon after that. But I had let them explore together before hand. Still a lot of humping, but no sign of dislike between the buns.

The boys seemed to get progressively better. They could lay in my lap, sit by each other, ect. No affection between them, but I figured buns just bond differently.

Once they were doing good enough to roam around for floortime together without me watching them like a hawk, I felt pretty content. Still no affection, or even any close contact. But they would hop past/stop to sniff each other without a worry.

This, I think, is where are ruined it all. I feel terrible about this, and I SO wish I could go back in time.

I decided to try and put the boys together in Beans’ cage. It was clean… I definitely wouldn’t say descented or anything. Neither of them showed any signs of territory issues, and I just screwed up. It was fine for a moment, then they attacked each other. They both attacked, as far as I can tell, no one rabbit initiated it. I got them apart quickly. Just to add, they don’t seem to be “blinded” by fighting like it seems other rabbits are from what I’ve heard. Right when I reached to grab them, they both instantly stopped. I didn’t get a single scratch. I don’t think thats important though.

Afterwards, I could still sit them next to each other and they would just chill. Not much different than before the fight. I’m holding on to the fact that they didn’t hate each other right away as proof that my mistake didn’t cause eternal hatred between the two, but I know that’s unlikely . But then, everything started going down hill.

BIG brawls. I had them on neutral territory not long after the fight, and they were doing fine, just like old times. I left for literally a minute or two, and I come back to bit up buns with blood and hair everywhere. It was mostly Beans’ fur, so I though maybe Benny was the fighter, but after a few more bite incidents, it’s really hard to tell. But, you could literally see, in the chunks of missing flesh, where the lower and upper incisors had gone into each rabbits’ skin. It was worse to Beans, but Benny got it, too.

I’ve tried several times, completely neutral territory, everything. But they bite each other and leap up and “hug” (fighting, though) and jump in the air.  I separate them and it just scares me so bad.

The weirdest part is… as long as they are a) on my lap or b) both sitting still and parallel to each other, they are fine. Now, when they are sitting side by side, parallel, it doesn’t last that long…. Once they get hopping around… they fight.  I can get them to sit next to each other for long enough for a few pictures, then it’s too dangerous to continue.

 

I want them to get along, but I’ve basically give up. I can’t stand to see them get hurt over something they don’t seem to interested in. But, I do feel that in the long run it would be better for them.

 

So, if I were to start all over…. how would I do that? I CAN’T screw this up again!

 

Thanks! Especially if you read all of this!!!

IMPORTANT ADD:

Since AFTER the initial fight. Beans WILL groom the top of Benny’s head. But Benny remains in his “whatever” attitude most of the time. Once it looked as if he tried to groom Beans back but ended up biting him? It really looked like he was trying to groom him… but it obviously hurt. It didn’t bleed, but it made a mark.

Grooming ONLY happens on my lap.

[Elrohwen]

I’m so sorry to hear about your story! That must be so scary and hard to deal with. I’m sorry I don’t have any brilliant advice. Can you take them to a neutral house – a friend, relative, bunny rescue, etc. – and start over?

[Deleted User]

Posted By leyley904 on 05/18/2010 05:30 PM I left for literally a minute or two, and I come back to bit up buns with blood and hair everywhere. It was mostly Beans’ fur, so I though maybe Benny was the fighter, but after a few more bite incidents, it’s really hard to tell. But, you could literally see, in the chunks of missing flesh, where the lower and upper incisors had gone into each rabbits’ skin. 

IMPORTANT ADD:

 

Grooming ONLY happens on my lap.

 

How long has it been since they broke skin last? After such an incident you would need to call of any bonding for a few months. If it has been a few months, you could start at a friend’s house like Elrohwen said or on car rides with them. This bonding is the kind where you can’t take your eyes off for even a second  because any more bloodshed will build a greater grudge. The grooming and relaxing is a very positive sign. These two just had a bad start.

Honestly, this can be done but you have to ask yourself how badly you want them bonded as it will take months. You cannot take a chance and will have to progress very carefully.

The advantage of bonding them would be that you would not have to worry if they ever escaped that they would fight.

— Have you ever done a bathtub session?

[jerseygirl]

I think how they are on your lap gives a clue on how to proceed. Side by side “forced snuggling” , petting both simutaneously, and also stress techniques. I wonder how calm they are being held on your lap? It could be they feel secure and are more amicable toward one another. But it could also be they are out of the comfort zone (not a bad thing) and turn to one another for comfort. Given Beans history, I agree, you’ll have to go about this all slowly with lots of supervision.

[leyley904]

Yes, it has been months since the last bite. They seem calm on my lap, but I could be misinterpreting their body language.

I will never look away again!!! You don’t need to worry about that! I DO really want them to be buddies! I feel so sad for them all alone. It’s summer so it will be easy to have LOADS of time to play/bond with them (bonding sessions with each other and with me, too!). I’m 100% fine if this takes longer than summer. I’m committed and going to take things extremely slow. I won’t mess up again. I can’t mess up!

The side by side thing is going to be happening a lot. I’ve never had a problem with it. They usually fall asleep or Beans will “radar” and look all around, but that’s really it.

I tried the bathtub from the beginning, I don’t mind trying it again. That was probably 4-6 months ago. It should be scent free by now, right? It’s rinsed every time someone takes a shower.

I do have one bathroom in my house that I’m 100% sure is BUNNY scent free. But it has dog and cat smell in it. When it came time, could I use that? I could easily do a car ride, but I’m not sure about the friends house. I would be a nervous wreck, and I can’t even think of anyone that would say I could!

Or what about the garage? No telling what smells are in there…. but definitely no bunny smells. Maybe smells from cat, dog, opossum, raccoon, rat…. I could go on!

[leyley904]

Oh, and just to clear two things up:

At his old house, he was ganged up on by 2 larger buns. He didn’t fight back from what I’ve heard. But I’d be scared for life of something that had bitten off my nose!

In the fights afterwards (the “hugs”) there was never any major bites. Maybe a bit of hair. But I’ve always separated them immediately. It’s happened maybe 3 times. But it sure looks scary!

[Deleted User]

You can certainly get them bonded and I see you have many places for sessions. i would start with the bathtub because it is contained, has stressor ability (water) and is definitely neutral.

[leyley904]

Okay. I’m just making sure.

Is there anything that should be in the bathtub with them? I think I should put them in there side by side like they lay on my lap to start them out on a good note. Is that a good idea?

This isn’t happening now… or, well, at least 2 more weeks. I actually haven’t held them on my lap together in a few weeks, so I want to be 100% sure that they are still good with that. So maybe 2 weeks sound like a short time, I’m just not sure exactly where they are, you know?

Then it will be bathtub bonding for a while….

S.L.O.W.
Oh, I’m so nervous! 

[leyley904]

Oh, I heard it helped to put them in each others cages and switch them back and forth from. To get used to each other’s smell. Is that a good idea?

[Deleted User]

You need to be very calm and relaxed for the session because the rabbits will sense your stress. They won’t stay side-by-side in the tub but probably move around but don’t worry about how to configure them in the tub. how were they in the tub before, when you had tried it?

[leyley904]

I just meant I wouldn’t put them in facing each other. I don’t know…. haha.

I don’t remember having any major troubles in the bathtub.

[leyley904]

I’ve been holding Beans and Benny for a few hours now (studying for finals!) with not much of anything. I had a little carrier out on the couch right next to me to block them from jumping down, but I also had it open (I didn’t really think about it, I didn’t have it open for a reason). They were being really calm, so when they started to shuffle just a bit I let them. They both moved towards the carrier (never used before) so I put them both in (there is a door on the long edge of the carrier that I left open) facing out. They both turned around and faced the back of the carrier within a few moments, silly buns. Beans started grooming Benny a good bit. He will duck his head down afterwards wanting Benny to return the favor, to no avail. Benny won’t lower his head back (like he used to do) he just ignores him. I feel bad for Beans . I’ve been petting them both a lot, and they seem really content. The carrier is only big enough for one rabbit for a short trip. They both fit together, but I would close them both in it. I put a hand towel folded up on either side of them (not one in between them) so that they stayed side by side and didn’t get ahead of what was good for them. It seems cozy enough!

This is overall good, right? I hope that Benny will groom him back someday soon!

I also need opinions on this. It doesn’t relate to bonding, but it’s just really quick.
I saw Benny’s eye was watering and upon closer inspection he had a tiny bit of clear goop in his eye (kind of like sleep). I tried sort of rubbing his eyelids to wash it out, and when I gently opened his eye back up (he was kind of like “What the heck are you doing!?” and wouldn’t open his eye back up) and his bottom eye lid sort of flipped out (a normal thing, can’t explain it well) and I saw a white sore. Or I think it is a sore. It kind of looks like a sore that you get on the inside of your cheek sometimes, that kind of “white”. I checked his other eye and both of Beans’ and It didn’t look like this. Now, since I’m focusing on his eyes, I notice his lower eyelid is darker pink than his upper eyelid and his eyelids on the other side. It’s just darker on the water line, not down to the skin. He’s always has pink eyelids, but this is redder. Besides his eye watering (which could have been from the tiny bit of goop that is now out, or this sore) he doesn’t seem to be in any pain.

I’m obviously going to watch it and if it gets worse or he looks in pain I will bring him to the vet. Do you have any idea what it could be?

Okay, that didn’t turn out very short!

Thanks!

ADD: Benny will occasionally lower his head to be groomed, but not in response to Beans lowering his. They used to compete to see who could get lower, but no grooming ever came out of these “battles”. This isn’t happening now.

[leyley904]

I have had a hard time finding time to get them out of my lap together, and I’m really anxious to get them together as much as possible. So I’m trying the cube idea right now. I don’t have to watch them (hovering) as closely, but I’m still sitting right next to them studying. I used to have to focus all my attention on them to make sure they didn’t hop off or any pets came near them. This is a lot easier.

It is a tad more space for them to move around than I usually let them, but I figured it was such a small amount it wouldn’t make a difference. I’m glad to say I was right! They are doing WONDERFUL. They are both looking around, going to each side (over each other! ha!). Beans has groomed both himself and Benny in the presence of two dogs. Benny has his normal “whatever” attitude that he has when a lone.

I’m truly baffled as to how they are doing so well. I guess taking that break was really good for them!

I would still appreciate advice on Benny’s eye from the post above!

Here are a few cruddy pictures taken from my webcam. I need to find the wire to my camera!

I had a scrap of coroplast that I put in there, just for a solid bottom if they were to move the towel.

 

If when the time came, could I use a 2×1 grid thing like this before going to an open pen? I think it could be a good transition. Just the exact same as the one I made but two grids long?

 

Oh, my good boys! I’m so proud of them 

 

Thanks so much to the people who convinced me to try bonding them again! Best idea ever!

[leyley904]

This is my invention! Well, not the cube part, but the rest! Haha!
I put it on a plant roller. I don’t know what to call it put it’s meant for large planted pots to go on top of. I attached a dog traffic lead and VWA-LA! I rolling…cube…thingy.

Sadly the wheels on this roller suck. It tend to kind of spin when I roll it. I have to pay special attention not to run them into walls!! But I’m careful!

This is just so that if I need to walk across the house or something I can easily bring them with me!

 

Sorry for me asking so many questions before any get answered, but do you think I should wait for mutual grooming before moving on, or is that overkill? Beans is a gentleman and is grooming Benny pretty consistently. Benny hasn’t made an effort. Though he has groomed himself!

 

Oh, and they pay no attention to the water bottle and lettuce in the cube. Beans munched a tad on hay but that’s all. I guess there is too much going on to eat! 

[jerseygirl]

This is good! I like your tag-a-long cube lol. Just don’t go hitching it to a bike or anything.

I wouldn’t rush these 2 so more sessions in the cube would be good. Then to a large cube like you are thinking. An open pen can wait. Just aim for keeping them together for longer and longer times.

Don’t apologise for asking questions – it’s how we all learn!

Bennys eye: The white thing sounds a bit like a stye but I’m unsure rabbits get these. Most like having their eyes washed so some water or saline on a cotton ball would be soothing. Be careful not to touch goop or petting Beans after because it could be contagious (conjunctivitus). If it’s not clearing up, time to go see the vet.

[leyley904]

Today I looked at it again and wet q-tip and touched it to his eyelid (the spot) and it came of like it was the same goopy stuff, just not as transparent. Within a few minutes of getting it out the redness in his lower lid went away. Could it just have been some sleep in his eye and was irritating it? It was a very small amount. Not enough that if it were coming out of his eye that I would think anything of it. Teeny teeny amount, it just had formed into a dot/circle type thing so I didn’t even think that it could be that.

YEAH! I’m going to “roll” them around the block! KIDDING! Haha!

I actually just let them back into their cage. They were just doing so good I didn’t want to interrupt them . They had food and water, but they were in there for a good 5 hours! NOTHING negative. I’m so excited! But, I’ve got to contain myself, I need to take this SLOW. And I will

Thanks for the help! I will still keep an eye on Benny’s eye! But it looks back to normal color.
Oh, and I didn’t touch the goop, and I washed my hands too. I should be good right?

[jerseygirl]

Should be. That’s great they did 5 hours in the cage – for sure! I’m really surprised!

[leyley904]

Okay. I just had a half day at school today. Finals tomorrow through Thursday! Good thing the boys are good study buddies! Yeah, right ! Wish me luck!

I put them both in right when I got home. Benny is much more awake now. I guess it’s the time of day. I think I made a small mistake, it seems to be better already though. I put Benny in then I cut 2 of Beans’ nail before putting him in. It was only for a short time that Benny was in the cube alone, but he nipped Beans twice. Not hard ones at all, Beans just seems more surprised than hurt.

Benny is definitely asking for grooming! I think he gets a little confused, he will shove his head under whatever part of Beans is closest; he chin, his belly, his butt. Anything!

I brought the dogs in just t try and keep Benny distracted a bit. Roger is squeaking his toy at them non-stop wanting them to play with him! Benny is up trying to make friends through the cage bars!

Anything that I could do today to help them progress? I’m obviously still staying in the cube, but I don’t know if there’s something to do…. I don’t know.

So that I can start planning and finding room and supplies, I have a few questions. (Surprise, surprise!) 
They can stay in there current cages until the cementing process, correct? I’m going to be switching out there litter boxes toys to help them get used to each others smells.
ANYTHING about the cementing cage is appreciated. I’m probably going to do an xpen with a shelf or something (if that’s okay/good). A neutral room? Or should it have some smell in it to get them used to it?
 

[Deleted User]

leyley, this is going a little too well, you know? I suspect, there will be a battle of powers between them at some point so you want to have them only in neutral territory. On the other hand, it is possible that their falling-out from before has already determined a hierarchy between them.
–I love the gradual increase in space like you describe, with adding grids onto the cube. This is the single safest way of progressing to larger space. In fact, I am a big fan of turning the bonding cube into a cementing enclosure by successively adding more grids until it becomes a small pen-like thing.
When you eventually go into cementing, I would make their pen bare and small. That way they will have to interact but can’t claim items or areas. Depending on their relationship you may need more than one litterbox.

[leyley904]

Thanks Petzy!

If they were to keep this behavior up (crosses fingers), how long would you say I should stay with just this size cube?

[Deleted User]

I can’t know, you need to test it out: pop them into a larger thing and see how it affects their relationship. Use extra caution, they may act totally differently. As a rule, don’t experiment like this until you see them relaxing in the cube.

[leyley904]

Okay, well this is the (changeable) plan:
Order grids offline (I don’t have any more, and I can’t find them in person anywhere)
Stay with 1×1 cube until grids come in (week?)
If they are still doing good, switch to 1×2 cube (uh… rectangle?)

then these transitions when it comes to time.
1×3 cube ?
2×2 cube?
Then cementing cage. What size would you suggest if I did use cubes? It would just be simple and plain, but I think I will worry less if I use cubes instead of a pen. Maybe a 2×3, 2×4, or 3×3?
A 2×4 would probably be good (I think?) that would be 28″ by 56″.

I feel better when I have plans

I’m going to start the cube session with a video. Hopefully my dad will let me store my bonding videos on his computer (“I’m ganna put viruses on it!!” Blah blah blah!!!!) because I’m nearly out of space on my macbook!!! I enjoy taking pictures, what can I say!?

[leyley904]

Oops, just saw your post Petzy.

They do relax, but I’m going to wait a few more days. If I can’t get the cubes in for a longer time I can use the ones grids with the big holes and overlap them. Which I have a few of.

[Deleted User]

Overlapping will work, or you can line them with cardboard.

[leyley904]

Just a short video of them.

At the end Benny moves his mouth weird. What is he doing? He does it every once in a while, usually after both him and Beans bow their heads at the same time.

It’s almost impossible to see, but when Beans turns around (away from the camera) in the video, he gives Benny’s head a little lick when he passes by!

[leyley904]

WHOOPS! Forgot to put the actual video! 

Remember my question about Benny’s weird mouth thing!

 

[Deleted User]

Benny is the white one? My rabbits do this motion with their tongue when they are eating some of their fur.

I like the plan of increasing grid by grid , it will be interesting to see how it works for you. so far, they appear rather peaceable. Keep us posted. Thank you for showing the video, it was too cute! Like a collection of rabbit still shots.

[leyley904]

Yes, sorry. Benny is the white one. I forgot to say that

I’ll tell them you said they were cuties! Haha!

Well, today’s session is complete with 0 nips. I thought for a second that Benny was grooming Beans, but he was just grooming his paw while Beans was under him! DARN!

I will be jumping up and down when/if Benny finally grooms Beans! Do some bunnies never groom at all? I hope he eventually does. Poor Beans seems like he understands. He will groom, then ask to be groomed. He waits a bit then grooms some more, then asks again. He keeps doing that then just gives up.

[Deleted User]

Some rabbits don’t groom others. Or, it takes them a long time to get to that point. I would not worry about it. Worry about any aggressive attitudes. If there are none — good!

[leyley904]

 There’s none! 

[leyley904]

I’m about to do a cube session while I watch a movie. I have expanded it to a 1×2. So…. it’s not really a cube, but more like a rectangular prism. (6th grade math to the rescue!) I have two quick questions:

1) Should I use the same towel I was using in the first cube, that has both of their smells on it? Or should I start with a neutral towel? I have used the same towel for the sessions in the first cube, so I don’t think there is any reason to switch it out, correct?

2) Is there any reason that I couldn’t do this?: Put the buns in the new cube, then put in a divider (with both buns on the same side) to make it just the size of the first cube. Then slowly back it up to use the full space? Just so it eases them into it?

We should call it “Cube 2.0”

[Deleted User]

Cube 2.0!!! You are my kind of rabbit bonder! It is a great way to keep track of things and it probably will throw your buns for a weird ride: bonding in an evergrowing neutral territory. Do it. Totally go for it. I think this will be a fantastic journey to witness.
Oh, just keep using the same towel. It won’t matter.

[leyley904]

I did last night for about 2 hours. No nips, but a lot of tense moments. Beans is really getting fed up with not being groomed in return. He’s really pushing the “groom me” and Benny looks like he’s not too happy about that. Goodness, why are bunnies so difficult!!!! When things looked tense, I would rock the cube back and forth a bit, just to distract them, and it would make them stop. I did let it go on once at the end (the stand offs) and nothing happened, so I probably was just being my paranoid self

[leyley904]

And the stand offs are coming now because they didn’t have room to face each other before.

[leyley904]

OH, good news! I just did a ~2 hour bonding session.
IT WAS TOTAL CALMNESS! Not any tension, not once. 
And….
Benny stretched out! I’ve only seen him do this ONCE in his cage (although I’m sure he does it when I’m not around). 

 

Sadly I’ve never see them flop or in post-flop position  . But this was by far the closest I’ve seen. Do some rabbits just not flop, or am I doing something wrong? I also have only seen Benny binky ONCE. And Beans only a few times. I feel like a bad bunny momma.  But it does make that binky moment the best feeling ever! I just can’t stop smiling like an idiot! 

[Deleted User]

They flop behind your back! Don’t take it personally

[leyley904]

That actually makes me feel a WHOLE lot better, you saying that! They were so relaxed that this size cube might not last too long!

Petzy, what is your icon? I saw you said something about it being a hairstyle…. somewhere.

ADD: Never mind, I just looked up “rabbit hairstyle” and I saw it. 

[leyley904]

I want to give my bunnies a phone book to rip up. Since I already have to wait for one to come in to give to them, would it be okay if I used it in bonding sessions instead of giving them each their own? So that way they can both have it soon?

Also, Benny (and Beans a little bit) eats things. Like, they eat the toilet paper rolls. I know its okay for bunnies to eat them a bit, but he acts like it’s food, it’s gone within a few days (but I never let it get that far after the first time). I also know that phone books are soy based, but what if they ingested a lot? Well, I guess if I only use it in bonding sessions that I could watch them close and they wouldn’t have access to it all the time. What do you guys think?

*Urgh, “you guys” sounds so weird! I’m a southern gal, y’all!*

[leyley904]

Haha, Petzy. This whole second page is just between you and me basically!

You’re like my bunny bonding advisor!

[Deleted User]

Posted By leyley904 on 06/02/2010 11:22 AM
Haha, Petzy. This whole second page is just between you and me basically!

You’re like my bunny bonding advisor!

I don’t mind.

–I would like though for other people to post more in here. Come on.

 

[leyley904]

Did you see my phone book questions?
The times on the posts aren’t with my time and I’m VERY confused…..

[Deleted User]

They can just share that phone book. You can rotate it between their cages. When you say toilet paper roll, do you mean the empty cardboard tube? That they can eat within reason but I wouldn’t let them eat the actual tissue paper in large amounts.

[leyley904]

Okay, I’ll do the rotating. Is it a bad idea to have it in bonding sessions? Will they fight? Or does it not really make a difference?

Oh, no. Just the cardboard roll.

So, how much would be too much for ingesting phone book pages? I will check on them a lot and if I see a good bit gone I will obviously take it out to give them a break.

[Deleted User]

If your rabbits have hay in their racks I doubt they are going to gorge themselves on a phone book. They should just rip it up and dig at it and if they accidentally eat some, as in a little shred here and there, it’s fine. I have no idea how much paper it would take to make a rabbit sick.
I don’t think the phonebook will make a difference in your sessions, but try it if you are curious.

[leyley904]

Okay thanks!
I’ll try it out soon!

[leyley904]

EMERGENCY QUESTION

Okay, bonding session in Cube 2.0. No phone book, nothing new. Same thing that they did well in the day before last.

Almost right away Beans nipped Benny. They just kept fighting. I took them both out and right now they are in a forced snuggle on my lap. LOTS of hair flying, no blood, but I can’t tell if there may be little cuts yet.

WHAT DO I DO NOW? Do I just not bond today? Go back to one cube tomorrow? Do I put them back in right now with a blocker in the cube making it a small cube? EHHHH

[leyley904]

Okay my dad got home so I put them in opposite cages. Beans in Benny’s, Benny in Beans’. I figured they couldn’t connect fighting with getting away from each other….maybe…. I don’t know.

[Deleted User]

Keep the sessions basic as in the beginning. smaller cube and more time. Always end on a forced snuggle. Never let them fight like that. As soon as any nipping starts you have to stop them because it is too early in their bonding to let them sort out who will be boss. When you stop them, push down their heads gently enough but forcefully enough. Be calm and wear gloves. Add a stressor next time such a rocking the cube.

[leyley904]

Okay. Is it okay if I leave them in opposite cages tonight and then tomorrow do a smaller cube with a stresser?

[Deleted User]

if they don’t fight through the bars, you can leave them.

[Deleted User]

how is the bonding going, Leyley? I hope you didn’t have a serious setback.

[leyley904]

Hm… okay.
I’m back with the single cube. They had one more minor tussle in that, with just a bit of hair pulled. Other than that, they just seem indifferent (I can’t think of the right word.). Beans still grooms Benny, but there are more tense moments than when I started. I’m still convinced it will work, don’t worry about that, they just started off so wonderfully I guess I got a little too optimistic and now I’m bummed. I’m going to stick with the single cube for a while, I don’t want to push them and they have a major setback.

I can’t tell you what is making me feel this, but I’m almost positive that Benny needs to groom Beans for this to work. I feel like I can tell that’s what’s holding them back. Any ideas?

Sorry I haven’t updated in a while! I will update when anything interesting/important happens, and if they go a while without any of that, I will update anyways!

I do have two questions:

I ordered a maze haven, comes in tomorrow. And I just came to a depressing realization.
How will I use it? …when it comes to smells and territory? I know it can be split into two. And I was thinking I could let them each use half, and then let them take turns if I wanted to use the whole thing for a while. But that won’t work, will it? It would have their smells and when they were bonded they couldn’t use it together, correct? I can’t very well wipe down cardboard with water and vinegar! If I kept it as a whole, and let them take turns with it in floor time, so that they whole maze had each of their smells, would that be okay? I’m worried I will have to wait to use it until they are bonded, which could be a while! You know how difficult the suspense will be!!!??? (off to add ANOTHER slave confession, I love that thread! It will be an “add” to another post, so you will be able to tell which one )
If it’s a bad idea to let them take turns with it, what do you think about me using it once I get to the pen stage of bonding? Or will the claim it?

Other question…. if I can remember it…..

Dang. It’ll come back to me.

[Deleted User]

Oh good. I was wondering if they were still getting on with sessions.

You worry too much about this maze! Just use it! They can take turns now and once they are bonded there will come a point when they will be ready to share!

[leyley904]

Yay!
I’m a worry wart! My dog Roger got neutered yesterday. Imagine your mom calling, your already worrying your head off, and she starts with this “Roger won’t be done until later. There was an emergency—”
FREAKING OUT! Luckily, it ended like this “and his surgery got pushed back a spot so that dog could be helped.”

Sorry, that was random.

[Elrohwen]

My two are snuggling in their maze right now – the maze that Otto owned alone for months. Don’t worry about it! You can give them half, or just switch it back and forth for a while. Once they’re bonded, like Petzy said, they will reach a point where they will share anything.

[leyley904]

Thank you! I can’t wait to put it together for them and see them explore. Haha, they better like it!

[leyley904]

Okay, I have them in the cube. Nothing exciting at all. They just sit… and sit…. and sit. With an occasional groom from Beans. I just tried making pellet mush and added in mushed pumpkin and barley treats (a tiny amount) and I even tried mushing some cilantro leaves and carrots into it. I put it on their heads and Beans groomed away. Benny didn’t. I’ve done this before with banana and got the same result: If I hold Benny’s mouth right above Beans’ head and he will…. groom/eat the stuff out of his hair. It doesn’t look like grooming, but it’s sure better than nothing. He won’t do it if I don’t hold him up. And he only does it when I hold him up when their is something on Beans’ head.
I’m just getting so frustrated

I feel like no improvements are being made. Could I just try a pen and sit in there with them with a spray bottle? I don’t know, what would you guys do if you were me? They don’t seem to be making anymore strides towards bondage at this stage. So, should I just move on and work out the issues at the next stage instead of trying to prevent them through this stage? (I make no sense, sorry).

[Deleted User]

I would, too, move to a bigger space like a pen as you suggested. You are right, when no more progress is made, you must take the next step. Each phase of bonding will have its challenges but you can’t prevent them, they must unfold and be dealt with as they arise.

[leyley904]

Thanks so much, Petzy!

[Deleted User]

Keep stressors on hand when you do the pen sessions; a jar of coins, spary bottle, blow drier… anything that can startle them in case of aggression.

[Elrohwen]

I agree that if they’re not progressing, it’s time to move on to a bigger challenge. With my two, when I was at the point where I felt comfortable reading a book while they sat there, I knew I could move them up a level.

[leyley904]

Oh, I could definitely read a book. I can even walk out of the room (very quickly, within earshot) to get a drink or something. I didn’t get a chance today so far. I’ll either do it tonight or tomorrow.

One question. I’m running low on neutral space. There is a small “hallway” going into the master bedroom in my house. The master bedroom itself isn’t totally neutral, though. It has some of each of their smells. The game room in my house is neutral, but I’m going to leave that for cementing. I was thinking I could drape towels around the edge of the pen and put it in the little hallway. Would that make it okay… being next to an non neutral territory even?

[Deleted User]

that would be OK, as long as you also cover the floor with a blanket, towel, or similar. good plan to save an area for cementing!

[leyley904]

I was actually thinking that I could go buy a cheap, rubber-backed rug from target if I needed to. I had one in their cages last setup (but we threw that one away). It worked pretty well and wasn’t expensive. But, first I’m going to look around the house for something that would work and be easier. I probably will be able to find something here
I’ll update tomorrow!

Oh, I’ll also leave some windows open for a bit to air out the area.

[leyley904]

I did a pen (small pen) bonding sessions earlier today. It went well. 3 nips, but whether or not they would have reached a fight is unknown, the spray bottle really works ! They each groomed themselves, and Beans groomed Benny some. Benny also thumped a few times.
I should have asked you guys’ opinions first, but I didn’t think about it . I put the maze in the pen and let them check it out together. Luckily, it went great. Benny went straight to the middle and relaxed. Beans shot in and out exploring the maze, and came up on Benny too fast once and got thumped at, but that’s all.
I’m going to start decreasing their pellets. On top of that I’m going to start feeding them most of their pellets to them when they are together. Maybe they will start associating each other with something good that way. 

Oh, and Benny has started smushing himself up along side Beans and the edge of the pen. I can’t tell if it is him pushing his head under Beans to be groomed, but just going too far and off to the side on accident. Or if he’s snuggling. I’m hoping the latter.  They both seem very relaxed unless coming face to face to each other unexpectedly. When that happens their is either a nip then spray, or a thump then walk away. (RHYME )
I’ll keep you all updated!

[LoveChaCha]

Yay I’m glad to hear it is going alright!!

I want to steal your gray Nethie  Oh please, oh please, oh please?? 

[leyley904]

Thanks, but he’s all mine!

[Deleted User]

Posted By leyley904 on 06/15/2010 08:38 PM

either a nip then spray,

or a thump then walk away.

 

Bonding poetry??

 

— It is going so well for your rabbits,  Leyley!!

[leyley904]

Yes! I was getting antsy with them not making progress in the cube. But, I guess they were just “talking” it out with each other while I wasn’t watching .

Once they are bonded, I’m going to start transitioning them into free range in my room. They aren’t 100% litter box trained, but we’ll see how it goes. It makes me want them to hurry up and love each other so I can have them running around with me!

Going to do another bonding session soon! Longer today, hopefully!

[leyley904]

ARGH! These rabbits will be the death of me! They are so…. confusing! They need to make up their minds, !
Okay, 5 minutes ago:
Things are going great in the pen. Beans even BINKIES!
Boom. Fight. Only hair pulling, but it looked like they wanted to do more! They were jumping up in the air and running into each other and scary stuff. I sprayed them (I would have sprayed them faster but the spray bottle wasn’t working!!!) and thing settled down.
Then…. Of all things Beans could have done… he… FLOPS! I have not once seen them flop, and of all possible times… he does it after a fight!? Benny is also still grooming himself. They are acting perfectly relaxed…. I DON’T UNDERSTAND 

[leyley904]

Actually, Benny did receive a nip to the schnoz, which is bleeding but just a tad. Not dripping or anything.

Oh, and after the fight I forced-snuggled them. Then Beans did his flop. They relaxed a bit and ran around some more. Now they are back in there cages.

[Deleted User]

The transition from confined sessions to a pen is tricky. You will need a working spray bottle at all times, and continue on with heightened guard.

[Deleted User]

I like you journal style, Leyley. I can just see how things go down. ~

[leyley904]

GOODNESS!
I’m still going to continue with this for a week or two. But there’s still good bit of sitting around. Anything I can do to encourage them to interact…. positively?

Also, would this work for cementing? It’s about the size of a 2×3 NIC cage.

I also did a snuggle session on my lap last night. My babies are so cah-UTE!

I’m about to do a session…. I should start updating AFTER sessions, lol!

[LoveChaCha]

*steals your bunnies*

Looking forward to hearing about your next session

[Deleted User]

Posted By leyley904 on 06/18/2010 06:43 PM

 Anything I can do to encourage them to interact…. positively?

 

digging material possibly. Shredded paper or little sticks to move around — anything to spark their interest.

[Deleted User]

Of course, you can cement in a commercial cage (given enough exercise time) but equally you could just cewment in whatever enclosure they are going to live in permanently.

[leyley904]

Thanks, I’ll try putting some little toys in there with them.
Ah, true. I didn’t think about just using whatever would end up being their permanent home.

[leyley904]

Okay, sorry if this is a stupid question, but I just want to make sure.

Should/could I do some bonding sessions in the cementing cage (whichever it is that I use) to get them used to the cage, or should I leave it completely neutral until it comes time for the actual cementing process?

[leyley904]

This is relaxed, right?
Benny always seems to have his ears back, no matter what. That’s okay, right?
I’m petting them so much and moved Benny a bit just to try and get them to do something for the video, but it just made them chill more! Haha

If I didn’t know them, I would think they were bonded if I saw them in a small space. I have a dog stroller (longggg story ) and I’ve been putting them in that to “transport” them to the pen on the other side of the house. It’s about the size of the cube (a bit bigger) and they cuddle each other in that.

I’m doing a car session later just to see if anything new happens. Then tomorrow (or maybe even tonight) I’ll do a pen session with the little toys and hopefully they’ll interact!

[Deleted User]

Transfer to larger area will be your biggest hurdle but it looks like they are ready for you to try it.
Leave the cementing enclosure for last.

[leyley904]

Okay, I got that cage today. I’m not going to use it for cementing. I will most likely use it as their cage once they are bonded. They will be free range in my room unless I’m not home (so for the school year I will probably attach a pen to it for them). I put them in there to see how they did in a cage setting, and they are doing WONDERFUL!

Could I leave them in there all night (sleep by the cage) and see how they do? Or is it too risky at this point? I think I saw that mocha did that, I’m not sure if it’s a common thing.

Here is a video:
(it’s loading on photobucket, I’ll add it in a sec!)

[leyley904]

I’m still going to upload the video, but I’ve decided not to even consider leaving them together tonight. I’m a heavy sleeper and I’m not confident enough that there wouldn’t be problems.

I’m going to scrub down the hallway tomorrow (long hallway) or in the next few days to see how they do in a larger space. They haven’t been in there for months anyways.

[Deleted User]

So you have a brandnew cage there now? It may be your best place for cementing. You could try and cement them in a small space such as this cage without ever transitioning to larger area. I have not done this but it may work. If your rabbits get along inside the new cage which they may because it will have a scent in it unlike anything else in their world, you could try it for a day-long session. If it goes well, you could go for the overnight. After ten days of cementing they would automatically get along in large area too.

[leyley904]

I’ll do a session for the rest of today in the cage. I’ll update tonight.
The video is being stupid It basically just shows them sitting, and how they could walk past each other in tighter spaces with no problem.

[mocha200]

were is the update!

[Deleted User]

leyley, I hope you haven’t had a bad setback. Would love to read an update too if they had more meetings.

[leyley904]

Sorry! They made it for a while that night but started to make music with their thumps and I didn’t want a fight.
I’ve had them in the hallway with lots of cardboard to explore and they seem to be liking it.

It seems they can hop past each other without tensing easier now. 
I’m going to wait until I get back from Italy before I do any overnights! 
I’ve been switching them from cage to cage still and it seems to be helping!

[leyley904]

Next week I’m leaving for vacation, soon after I get back I’m going to start cementing. Hopefully all will go well and I can work towards moving them to free range in my room! I just got my carpet cleaned, although they haven’t been on the floor in my room in a long time. Hopefully that plus them being out of my room for 2 weeks for cementing will make the transition easier.
I’ve been basically just doing sessions in the cage or in the hall, both going well. That’s why I don’t have much to update lately; nothing too interesting.
They are still basically the same when it comes to grooming. They will both groom themselves, and Beans with groom Benny. But they seem much more relaxed when hopping around each other. It used to get really tense when one would hop passed the other.

Also, they ADORE the maze haven!

[mocha200]

i am glade they are doing good. make sure when you go in cementing be calm. i started out in a pen prepared to separate them if any thing went wrong. make sure you don’t get your hopes up if they don’t cement, sometimes they just need a little bit more time.

((((((((((((((cementing vibes))))))))))))

[mocha200]

” Benny, you wont be un cool if you like Beans.”

[leyley904]

Thanks, Mocha! I’ll have to relay the message to Benny

[leyley904]

I made a comment on this thread a couple days ago, and I also read my inbox message, and now my post is gone and my message is back…. hmm….
Well, I’ll just post what I said again.

Sorry I just up and left, guys. I’ve been really busy with school and some other things.
I haven’t gotten a chance to do much (barely any) bonding since my last post, but I plan to start up again full throttle this summer, if not sooner.
Sorry again.

[RabbitPam]

FYI everyone: BB is doing major site technical work and as a result many posts over the past couple of days were lost. She has posted to that effect in the Tech. section, but not everyone sees it so thought I’d mention it to you here, too. If you want, please add what you wrote before or create a new post on the same topic. Sorry about the inconvenience.

[mocha200]

leyley904: Your back! I was wondering if I would see you again! Hows your little buns!

[leyley904]

No problem about the post being lost!
Beans and Benny are doing great, thanks! How are your buns doing?

[mocha200]

Thats good! My buns are doing great too! do you have any new pics of them?

[leyley904]

Not anything special, but I’ll take a few pictures of them this weekend and post them!

[mocha200]

Can’t wait!

[Author]

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