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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING 5 months of bonding stubborn couple

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    • Laurenf
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        I have a 6 year old French lop male, named Harper. I’ve had him for 2 years now. He is on the skittish side, he doesn’t let me pick him up and will sometimes jump away if I have both hands on his sides. He does jump up on my lap sometimes so I have to give him some credit, he’s come a long way to trust me.
        My boyfriend and I decided to adopt another bunny as Harper isn’t into playing and I wanted him to have a companion to keep him company.

        we decided to adopt a 6 year old female Holland lop named Winter. She does have a hock sore that we will be treating long term. She is a spunky little girl, and is more playful than Harper but she’s not all the way hyper either. We are able to pick her up and she’s not skiddish like Harper. She has improved his quality of life, he is less on guard and doesn’t get scared like he used to all the time, over something as small as me walking into the room. Sometimes this would terrify him and he would run in circles and hide. He would be so scared you would think he’d going to give himself a heart attack. Thankfully He hasn’t had a freak-out since.

        we did the pre-bonding of having their cages side by side, and swapping them every day so they had to use each others belongings. At first they had a territorial poop war but it went away. Then we got into the dates. It’s hard because she has a hock sore so she can’t be on hardwood floor (which is what my whole house is) and Harper can’t be picked up and is scared of hard wood. So really The easiest thing is to have the dates in our bedroom beside theirs. We lay down fleece blankets for the dates and  x-pen off the rest of the room.

        The dates were getting good, being able to spend 1 hour together. They were not fighting around the litter box, playing with the same toys, eating and laying down infront of eachother and sharing food. However they refused to groom eachother and would have stand offs often. I tried the banana trick, it worked and winter groomed Harper. But Harper only did it back for like 2 seconds. I tried it the next date, and winter groomed Harper for a longer time. Maybe a minute. But Harper did not do it back.( Harper has not groomed her since this time.) I tried the banana multiple times after and it was just useless because it wasn’t working and banana was just getting stuck in their fur.

        Unfortunately our vet discovered mites on both of them (just a few and they are ok now after 3 treatments for it) so we had to put the dates and swapping cages on pause for about 1 month. Then we had summer vacations, so it was around 1.5 months where we got back into swapping cages daily.

        It has been about 3 weeks of daily swapping, and Harper has been territorial pooping pretty much every single day. Winter is not. We have done 7 dates since. From 20 minutes long to about 1 hour sessions. And they will not stop having stand offs for grooming and neither will groom the other. Not even once. Winter is persistent and will follow him just to bow her head down to him again. Even if she just did it a minute ago. Sometimes when they are having the standoff they look so tense, luckily no fights have come up. I try to pet them lots during these moments. And I try bunny magic. But the occasional nips happen once or twice after the standoffs. Harper is very relaxed around her, he lays down the most and sometimes pays her no attention and then I feel like she gets mad and will nip for attention or shove her head into his. They will push their heads lower and the stand offs can last for a long time. Eventually we just take the dust pan and put it between them and nudge one of them away from the other.

        I feel like both of them are so stubborn that they will never submit to eachother and I’m wondering if I have 2 bunnies that will never bond… does anybody have some advice for me? I have read countless websites and forums and I still haven’t read about a situation like mine.


      • DanaNM
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          So I think things don’t sound too bad at all (no fighting is awesome), and they are at the point where you should do longer sessions. They are communicating with each other, but just haven’t felt the need to fully sort things out. Sometimes they need to feel a bit of pressure when they are being stubborn. I would also ease off the petting at this point and see what happens. I am a huge fan of “bunny magic’ and petting, but since they aren’t fighting and have been together a lot, I think it’s time to pet a bit less and see how they do.

          I would aim for 2-4 hour sessions for a few days, and if that goes well (or stays the same), bump it up to 6 hours if you can. Try to do daily sessions if at all possible.

          Sometimes a change of scenery can also help a lot. Maybe you could put some brand new blankets down in another area of the house?

          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


        • Laurenf
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            Thank you for the advice! Oh and I forgot to mention that they are both neutered and spayed.

            We tried a session for about 50 minutes last night in the hallway in between our bedroom and theirs. They were curious of the new surroundings at first but then it was just constant stand offs still. They don’t cuddle or anything like that. I try to distract them with toys and food during the dates. But mainly all they do are the standoffs.

            Yet once I put them back in their separate cages in their bedroom after the dates they are suddenly all interested in seeing each other? Harper will often lie down on his stomach all happy immediately once they’re back in their room.

            since it’s the weekend and we’ll have more time I’m going to set them up for another date in the living room (for the first time!) and we’re going to see how long we can go with it! Maybe a bigger space will help too? As the hallway space and the bedroom space are around the same size.


          • Wick & Fable
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              You have build a solid foundation which I also agree can now be pushed by longer sessions. Remember that non-interactions are still positive — there is no need to force positive grooming interactions, especially if there is no fighting.

              The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


            • DanaNM
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                I agree 100% that the standoffs aren’t necessarily a bad thing, since they aren’t fighting. Eventually one will cave, given enough time, so I really think longer sessions are really the way to go!

                Also, if the bonding space is right in between their areas, but within smelling zone, then they may not perceive it as neutral. An area not within immediate smelling zone or sight of their home turfs would be idea.

                . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


              • Laurenf
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                  <p class=”p1″>So today I set them up in the kitchen/living room for the first time. I didn’t buy new blankets but I washed the usual ones and laid some other blankets on top that they haven’t seen in awhile. They were busy at first checking out their new surroundings. They ignored each other way more and did their own thing. I bought them new toys that they haven’t had before to switch things up, and I scattered them around the area. </p>
                  <p class=”p1″>Attention nips and stand offs started to happen. Winter kept acting like she was going to nip Harper in the butt. My anxiety was killing me but I didn’t interfere with any of the nips or standoffs. I just let them figure it out on their own and I had my oven mits on and dust pan ready. </p>
                  <p class=”p1″>After 1 hour Harper came up beside Winter- his head beside her butt. Harper turned and nipped her butt then laid down tightly beside her. (That was a first!) Then he turned around and he groomed her!!! He licked her head and moved down and licked her side too. Harper got up and laid down in front of her and she stayed hunched/bowed down. She stayed hunched for awhile then she tucked her front legs in to lay down and chattered her teeth for awhile. :’)</p>
                  <p class=”p1″>Harper came over to her and she laid down and pushed her head into his- another standoff. He laid into a lamb chop position. Harper started grooming himself infront of her. Winter interrupted him and pushed her head down to him again. He ignored it again and laid down beside her. She sat up and chattered her teeth. They did stand offs multiple times and it would just end up in Harper either hopping away or laying down. Then Harper decided to groom her again and licked her left eye area for about 15-20 seconds. After a few more failed stand offs Winter requested grooming again, and Harper groomed her a third time on her head again, and laid down beside her after.</p>
                  <p class=”p1″>I ended the date after 2 hours and I’m going to try for longer tomorrow! I can’t believe the progress they made! I’m so happy I didn’t think this would ever happen. Winter didn’t groom Harper once during the date but maybe that will change? I didn’t do any bunny magic or petting them during their interactions. I guess I just needed to take a chill pill and let them do their little nips at each other. And the kitchen/living room is the most neutral place they’ve had a date and it’s the furthest room from their bedroom. </p>


                • DanaNM
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                    That sounds like amazing progress!!

                    Not every groom request has to be met, often bonded bunnies will just end up cuddling when neither feels like grooming, so that’s really great!

                    . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                  • Laurenf
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                      So the next day I did another 2 hour date in the same new area. Winter initiated a lot of stand offs. After 2 tries Harper groomed(?) her head. I don’t think there was any licking though, it looked kind of rough, like nipping her head? After another standoff, Harper ignored it and laid down. Then Harper turned and did the rough grooming again.  Later on Winter did a half binky in the air! Later on Winter nipped Harper’s butt, but he ignored her. Harper laid down and nipped her side and laid into her. Later on Harper did the rough grooming/nipping her head again.

                       

                      Am I still making good progress even though he’s not licking her this time? And she’s not grooming him back at all?

                      And is it ok for me to do shorter dates during the week? Weekdays are more difficult for me and my boyfriend as he works long hours. By the time we get home we’re making dinner and sometimes going to the gym. Then we only have about 4 hours until bed. Hopefully it’s ok to do the longer ones on weekends? I was going to do a longer session on a Sunday but towards the end I think Harper got spooked. I think from the noises upstairs, we’re in a basement suite. He was very tense and alert and he couldn’t get relaxed.  So I wanted to end it on a good note. I’m still happy we got to 2 hours again.


                    • DanaNM
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                        It sounds like they are still communicating, not fighting, and choosing to be near each other, so yes I think it was still a good date. Sometimes that rough grooming is a precursor to a mounting attempt (the nipping bun is trying to test the waters lol).

                        And yes, just do what you can in terms of dates, I think shorter ones during the week and longer on the weekend are fine. Maybe next weekend you could even try for 3 or 4 hours. 🙂

                        . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                      • Laurenf
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                          Thank you all for the advice I really appreciate it! Unfortunately the place I adopted them from doesn’t give me any insight when it comes to bonding so I don’t bother emailing them anymore. 😐
                          a little off topic here but they are both booked for nail trims this Saturday at the vet. Whenever they go, they go together but in separate carriers. They should be ok to do a date later in the day right? As they can’t really reject each other since they would both smell the same after both being there. I’ll give it a try but hopefully they’ll be in good spirits. Harper does get super scared every time, he almost always pees the towel when we get home 😥


                        • Wick & Fable
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                            If they don’t seem super stressed by the vet visit, yes you can do bonding later in the day. Note that they might smell “different” to each other, so if you see a rapid escalation in tension, best to stop the date and give it a day while they re-acclimate to their normal scents.

                            The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


                          • DanaNM
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                              If you were up for it (and have an assistant to drive), you can even take them to and from the vet in the same carrier. Since they have to go through the stress of the drive anyway, you may as well use it to your advantage 😉

                              I’m guessing since they aren’t fighting in the pen. they won’t fight in the car. It could be give them the little nudge they need!

                              Then ideally you could go straight to the bonding pen right after you get home from the vet (I’ve used car rides a lot with stubborn bonds, they can work wonders).

                              . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                            • Laurenf
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                                Okay that is actually such a great idea! Unfortunately I will be at a hair appointment so it’s just my boyfriend taking them, I wouldn’t be there to watch over them while he drives. 😡  Yesterday I did buy a 2nd carrier for Winter which might be some progress though, before I was just using the cardboard carrier from her adoption. At least with her new carrier they will be able to see each other through the bars and this might give them more comfort during the trip. I could have the front of their carriers facing each other with some towels over top?
                                Maybe another day when my boyfriend and I are both home, if they still need a little push we could put them in the bigger carrier and one of us could supervise while we drive around the neighbourhood.
                                I really don’t like the sound of stress bonding techniques but I am open to this idea. Them riding together is more realistic and it’s something that’s bound to happen eventually.


                              • Laurenf
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                                  So unfortunately it took this long for me to arrange another date today. I noticed Winter and Harper were sneezing pretty frequently over the past few weeks then I saw Winter sneeze with some white discharge. I took them both to the vet and they were both cleared as perfectly fine, but Winter did 10 days of low dose antibiotics just to be safe. The last time they had a vet issue I waited for a couple weeks to do daily cage swapping before another date- but since Harper hasn’t done any territory pooping I decided to just jump into the date today. 
                                  So 15 mins in Harper started nipping the side of Winter’s head when she requested grooming. Winter was in the litter box and he nipped her head once again.  30 mins in Harper binkied for the first time infront of her during a date session! Winter requested grooming and then Harper laid down infront of Winter. Winter sat up and waited. She laid down too and kept requesting grooming. Harper nipped her head again. Winter backed up but still stayed waiting for his attention. Winter finally laid down close to him. Winter washed her face then laid down on her tummy again. 45 mins in Harper went behind Winter and put his face around her butt area. I’m not sure if he was going to mount her? But my boyfriend took the dust pan and blocked him. Kind of wish he didn’t, as I should be letting them play things out but it was his first instinct lol.  Later Harper binkied across the floor again.  Winter came up to Harper and he started nipping her head again. He nipped a few times up to her shoulders then he laid down. 

                                  Then 2 hours into the date, Harper was laying down and Winter came towards Harper and nipped his side/head area. It all happened so fast, it was like a mini scrap because I think he nipped back at her and they got in each others faces. It happened 2 times very very fast so I broke it up and ended the date there. I Separated them with dust pan. I put them back in their cages in their room, and swapped cages for them this time.
                                  After this little spat I’m wondering if it’s okay to do another date this weekend? Is the daily cage swapping still necessary? Hopefully I don’t wake up to territorial poops from Harper tomorrow. Ugh. I will admit Winter did a lot more laying down during this date so I thought we were making some progress. But it seems like she’s so desperate for grooming it’s causing riffs sometimes.


                                • DanaNM
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                                    That doesn’t sound too bad, it could have been a bit more tense because of the pause between dates. I would keep up with the cage swapping, and yes, the more dates the better.

                                    Try if at all possible not to end on a bad note. That could mean even ending the date early when something good happens, just so you aren’t tempted to keep pushing them too far.

                                    I also just noticed in your original post that you had done about 7 sessions in a three week period (unless i read wrong). It really helps to do sessions daily if at all possible once you start things off. Otherwise they can kind of decide they don’t really need to fully accept each other because that “other bunny” isn’t a constant presence.

                                    . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                  • Laurenf
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                                      Yes your right! My plan was to start doing short daily dates during the week and longer sessions on the weekends. But then they had their sneezing issue so that put my plan on pause 🙁  Winter just finished her antibiotics on Saturday so I started getting back on track yesterday (Tuesday)

                                      today I did a short date for 30 minutes. We had the usual little nips and standoffs but we got to end it on a good note 🙂

                                      I’m definitely aiming for daily dates now as I want them to be bonded as soon as possible. We’ve had Winter since April so my boyfriend and I definitely need to step it up and put in the extra effort. Ugh, at first I thought my bunnies were too stubborn to bond but now I’m realizing maybe I was doing this all wrong. This is definitely my first time bonding rabbits lol 🙄  I appreciate all of the advice and insight. It’s been super helpful for me. 🙂


                                    • DanaNM
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                                        It can be really tricky, so don’t beat yourself up! They really don’t sound unbondable to me, I think they are just being a little stubborn (but I’ve never met a bunny that wasn’t LOL). I feel like often it is just a matter of the total amount of time the rabbits spend together, so the more you can work with them, the better! Sometimes even multiple short sessions in a day can be really beneficial if you don’t have time for 1 long session.

                                        . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                      • Laurenf
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                                          So for the past 2 weeks I’ve been doing the dates every day, except 2 days that were missed. 2 long ones, and the rest were from 30-50 minutes.

                                          Standoffs are becoming more frequent around the litter box. I always have 2 litters out during the dates. Harper will be in a litter box and Winter will come up to him and push her head in towards the litter box and starts a standoff. Harper has jumped in the litter box while Winter is already inside. Its resulted in standoffs and him turning into her and nipping her side.

                                          For a few days I saw a decrease in nips and less of Winter annoying Harper and always following him around.

                                          On Oct 12 Harper started getting more nippy. Lunging towards her and nipping if she comes up to him to request grooming/standoffs. On Oct 14 Winter nipped his head twice. like he’s been doing it to her. I don’t think any licking was involved but the second time it looked a bit more gentle?

                                          On Oct 15 I expanded their neutral space a little bit. Nothing crazy though. It lasted 1.5 hours. On this date Harper nipped Winter and a tuff of her fur was on the ground. Both of them laid abit closer together. Usually it’s a few feet apart but one time they were about a foot apart. On Oct 16 Harper went behind winters butt and nipped her. Maybe he was wanting to mount her? She turned back fast and went for a nip. There was little back and forth nip scuffle to I had to separate them.
                                          today (Oct 17) we got up to 2 hours. In the beginning Winter was grooming herself then Harper copied her and did it too. At one point Harper was laying down and winter came up to him for a standoff. Harper nipped her, she lunged to nip back and I had to separate them. About 1 hour in, Harper was lying down and winter came up to his face and requested grooming. They both weren’t backing down, pushing heads, she eventually backed away and sit up and stared at him for awhile. She turned away, and about a foot away from him she flopped laying down onto her tummy. Her feet were by his head. For about 10 minutes, Harper was actually dozing off and it looked like he was sleeping for awhile! Which I haven’t seen before. Later on Harper jumped behind Winter and it seemed like he initiated the standoff. They were pushing heads together for awhile, winter sat up, and went back down to continue- and within a second of her coming back down to his head, he nipped her head and some of her fur was loose on the top of her head. Later, Harper was laying down another time and winter came close to him again. He nipped her and she backed off. I saw some of her fur on Harpers nose and in his whiskers. I ended the date on a good note, and they both ate some parsley separately.

                                          so basically I’m seeing a lot more nipping coming from Harper… and he’s gotten some of her fur out a few times now. But they lay down near each other, she’s done a flop, and he’s let his guard down and dozed off sleeping near her which I haven’t seen yet. I do understand that he’s probably just starting to stick up for himself, she does come up to him all the time and initiates like 90% of the standoffs. I’m just wondering if I should be worried. I was planning on doing longer dates, but I haven’t up until today because I was worried about the increase in nips/scuffles. I try to let a few of them happen, but when it becomes a scuffle I do get the dust pan and separate them before it could get ugly.


                                        • DanaNM
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                                            The relaxing near each other is very positive! I’ve always seen that happen before I see grooming. I would keep it up as you have been, but I would remove the litter boxes! I never add liter boxes until dates get really long and they are generally doing well together, because they always seem to cause disputes! I put down puppy pee pads instead (or if it’s a shorter date on tile flooring, nothing).

                                            . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                          • Laurenf
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                                              So I followed your advice and got rid of the litter boxes and put down pee pads where I would normally put the litters. I have noticed a decrease in nips and snuffles. One date lasted 1.5 hours and we didn’t have any nipping at all. 🙂

                                              They are both relaxing around each other still, and I’ve noticed Winter is laying down on her stomach more often.
                                              When they lay down near another, it’s usually about 2-3 feet apart but this past week I’ve been seeing them get a little closer. Now half of the time, it’s about 1 foot apart. They still have lots of standoffs during the dates.

                                              Today Harper came up to Winter while she was lying down and he actually laid down parallel right up and touching against her body. (Both laying on their stomachs, Harpers head beside hers, both buns facing opposite directions) Shortly after I took a picture, they both tried to nip each other and then they got up and separated. Harper then moved about a foot away and laid down, and Winter did the same thing.
                                              Harper has also laid down on his tummy while having standoffs with Winter.
                                              I’m assuming now I just gotta push their boundaries and go for even longer dates this upcoming weekend. We got up to 2 hours again this past week.
                                              Harper occasionally comes up behind Winter while she’s lying down, and goes to sniff behind her butt and she always jumps up and moves. He hasn’t tried any mounting.

                                              Harper still “nips” her head sometimes and I haven’t seen any licking again. Winter hasn’t groomed Harper yet.
                                              I feel like when they are close together, they end up lunging/nipping because the sudden movement from the other startles them. But maybe that’s just me!


                                            • DanaNM
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                                                That sounds like some good progress! Keep up the good work!

                                                . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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                                            Forum BONDING 5 months of bonding stubborn couple