Jack’s vet visit – he will have to have surgery

[BinkyBunny]

So I made an appointment for Jack to see if there might be something going on, besides behaviorial, regarding his excessive need to mount, but on top of that something even more concerned me –  I noticed very red urine this last week..  I am used to red as diet, antiobiotics can make urine red, but this REALLY looked like blood. I had checked him out to make sure Vivian hadn’t nipped his privates (I couldn’t see how since she woudn’t even let him get close to her) but all was fine there.   So I soaked up the urine with a paper towel, and brought it to the vet with me.

She also thought that it looked like blood, she expressed his bladder and sure enough – blood.  Then we had  xrays done.  He has a huge bladder stone!  Looks like the size of nickel (sphered out)   He never strains to pee and never seems to be in any noticable pain, but this cannot be comfortable.   Since I had noticed the new bloody urine just within this last week, I asked what was going on.  She said that with all his running around and trying to mount, the stone can rub up against the bladder wall and cause bleeding.  Amazingly, the mounting would actually hurt him so he has got some crazy drive!

Which is what brings me to the next important thing – His bloodwork is being tested for his testosterone levels.  She did say that for a neutered bunny his jaw is pretty big.   I learned that sometimes that can be indictative of higher testoterone level.  But again, that alone doesn’t confirm it, so the levels will be checked.   If the levels come back high,  she said that when she goes into remove the stone, she will search for a testicle that may be up inside.  

She also said that little tumors on the adrenals can cause this, but the search for a testicle will be the first thing since she will be in there already.

ALSO, we did touch upon the possibility that IF his mounting is behavior induced, that the stress of having this bladder stone (painful) may be related. It’s not something that is a common association but it’s just something to consider.

We will get the testosterone test back next week and from there schedule surgery.  I just have to keep a close eye on him this week because she said if I see him straining to pee, it will be an emergency. 

Well, amazingly, this whole bonding thing may have saved his life in a backward way.

 

I’ll keep you updated!

 

[mrmac]

At least you found out about the stone! Poor Jack…

[Beka27]

Oh Jacky-poo! That is very interesting BB! Of course, keep us posted on how everything goes with his bloodwork.

(((((((((((((Jack!))))))))))))

[jerseygirl]

So strange how things come about. It would have been more difficult I imagine to decide to do exploratory type surgery alone. Now since he requires surgery, much better that things can be investigated why they’re there. Still means surgery though! (((Jack))) (((BB)))

[KytKattin]

Poor Jack! I’m glad that there are other possibilities for his mounting behavior and that him and Vivian may be able to live together after all!!! I’m also glad that Vivian stuck to her guns and didn’t let Jack mount all he wanted! She may be just the bunny for Jack after all! ((((((Jack))))))

[RabbitPam]

Oh, My!!! Jack!
I don’t want him to have an emergency, but I’m on shpilkies to have it done for him ASAP. I am sooooo glad you took him, and she sounds like a great vet to find this and be able to consider the possibility that he has a testosterone complication, enough to be willing to explore during the procedure.

You know, time and again when the bunnies behave in an unusual way, we find out there’s something wrong somewhere. They chew on the bars- the lights are left on. They thump like crazy – there’s an intruder. Jack relentlessly chasing Vivian – “can you please help me feel better? Somethings itching me down there.” I am so glad you are as observant as you are and found something wrong right away. Did the vet say they can still be together for now?
Glad that you have Vivian. She will be a real friend and comfort to him when this is over. Obviously she likes him, so this may change things for them a lot.
{{{{{{{{{{Hugs for Jack}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[lilmizzsnickerz]

its probably a good thing u found out now =D {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{good vibes}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[Sarita]

Oh no! Poor Jack. Vibes for both you and Jack.

[KatnipCrzy]

Poor Jack- I hope this surgery has him feeling better.  Even though they don’t recommend bonding immidiately after spay/neuter surgery- I wonder if he would he content to recover with Vivian snuggling and grooming him?

[Deleted User]

BB, I hope Jack will have a an unproblematic surgery. What an enormous size of stone, he must be so uncomfortable… did you notice pain when he pees?? I am always worried about my rabbit Mops, he has always had urine looking like blood but the vet didn’t find anything on the xray that was done. He doesn’t drink enough, his urine is thick somnetimes, so I’m always on alert about this very thing. Can you explain the difference to me between real blood in urine and the ‘acceptable’ dark red urine?

[jerseygirl]

I actually thought that blood couldn’t visibly be seen in urine. Do you know why it was in Jacks?

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks everyone. I am so grateful that this has been found now. I am rather nervous for Jack, but he has a great vet (I have two wonderful rabbit-savvy vets that I can rely on) but this one, Dr. Harvey, has been my regular and I also feel very thankful to her for all she did for Rucy, and I know she will do her best with Jack as well.

I can do bonding sessions, but I need to keep them shorter and I have to prevent him from running and trying to mount as this is what is suspected to be causing the bleeding as it makes the stone cut the lining. I can get Jack to settle down for the first half hour and Vivian will groom him, and he will groom Vivian, but then he’ll try to mount and begin to get crazy. So I have to cut it short when he gets to the “NO ONE CAN STOP ME” mode.

Petzy – no he does not strain at all. I watched him even more like a hawk, and i don’t notice anything abnormal. He pops in his litterbox, pees and pops out. He is active and doesn’t display discomfort – however, I am now rethinking all of his “Chocolate Bunny” positions over these last few years. I think he has been living with it so long (for it to get this size) that he must have just gotten used to it. Because of this, he is not on pain meds right now because the vet said pain meds can actually make bleeding worse, so unless he is showing and suffering from pain (not eating, pooping or just suffering) we are holding off.

Regarding telling the difference between real blood and dark urine. Since this is the first time I have personally ever seen real blood in the urine here is the best way I know how to describe it. (I’ll also try and get photos of the fresh bloody urine if you think that will help in determining? – that is if I can get anymore – since he’s not running around, I haven’t seen it today)

Dark red harmless urine looks like a dark rusty red color to me – sort of like how dried blood looks – can look a little bit like blood, but not as bright, where Jack’s urine was bright red – JUST LIKE blood mixed with a little bit of water to dilute slightly. It was bright blood red, and it dried brown. (like blood does) Where with the normal urine – the dark red urine, it dries about the same.

Jersey – I think what you may be thinking about is UTIs (and even some cancers)- I know I thought the same thing you did (until now).  Normally with a urinary infection, there are just trace amounts of blood that can’t normally be seen, but this is a different because it is a large bladder stone and when it rubs against the bladder lining (like during lots of running and attempted mounting) it causes a good amount of bleeding directly in the bladder which then gets taken out with the urine.  She did more than just a visual test to determine it was blood, but it was good to know that I could notice the difference by sight – as this did seem different than the dark red urine I’ve seen before.

katnip: I will definitely allow supervised visits with Vivian as I know she would be a sweet cuddlebug and groomer. I also know that sometimes a well rabbit can pick on a sick rabbit, so not knowing her yet THAT well, I will have to watch closely of course, but I can see where she could help him during is recovery.

[bunnytowne]

OH Jack.  Vibes for our dear Jack.    That sounds like a big stone.  Wow.    That is something that he has not strained to urinate with it big like that.

Better to find it now than not.  Jack may you have a speedy recovery.

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

Could you please post a pic of the pee (if you don’t mind) because I cant tell whether DJ’s is blood or pigment.

[BinkyBunny]

Carrot Lane Bunny -  I just soaked his pee tonight with a paper towel, and the blood is no longer apparent as I haven’t allowed him to run around so crazy. However, if I do see it come back, as I will allow a little bit of exercise, I will definitely take a photo and post it.

[BinkyBunny]

Carrot Lane – another suggestion is you could post a photo here of it, and we can take a look at it.

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

Ok thanks so much

[Deleted User]

I remembered I have a copy of Exotic Vet Magazine Vol. 6.2. and it covered urine lithiasis in rabbits and other urine issues, including red urine. It has photos, too. It’s too big to attach it here. I could email it to you Carrot Lane, and also BB if you don’t already have it, or anyone interested.

[3crazybuns]

Binky–How is Jack doing? Sending good vibes his way…. ((((((((JACK))))))))

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

I would love it if you could email it to me petzy where do I post my Addy?

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

((((((((((((((((((((((healing vibes for Jack)))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Deleted User]

Carrot Lane, I tried to email you using the ‘send a private message’ option in the member iindex but i couldn’t figure out how to attach the PDF file.
so… please send me a blank email to my account [deleted for privacy]’ and I will then send to you.

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

ok i did it

[Deleted User]

Carrot Lane…I didn’t get any mail… try again, maybe copy and paste the address exactly

Edit: Petzy, we don’t allow posting your email address in the forums for your security. Carrot Lane, you said you emailed Petzy, but if you didn’t get the email address, I copied it into my own email here and you can send me an email and I’ll get it to you to try again.

Sorry for the inconvenience Petzy. – RabbitPam

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

I sent it again.If it doesn’t work again i will send it to you rabbitpam.

[jerseygirl]

Warning:  For the sensitive – picture of blood in urine below

Petzy, I was able to copy the image I think you are referring to.  So larger pic is normal red urine, small inset shows blood in urine.

 

 

 

 

Source DMV Vol. 6.2:  

 

Fig 2. a) Pet rabbits are frequently presented for suspected bloody urine. If the coloration is uniform and reddish to brown, it may be a normal response to pigments from ingested vegetables.

b) True bleeding contains what appear to be red or nearly black clots. Hematuria is not present in cases of hypercalciuria and is rarely present in cases of urolithiasis in rabbits.

 

 

 

 

[Deleted User]

I’m sorry. I didn’t know.

Carrot Lane: I did email you the whole issue. But Jersey , always a step ahead, alreay posted the pic.

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

Thanks the whole issue is interesting!

[Carrot Lane Bunny]

OK I think DJ’s urine is normal.I will post a piccy sometime.

[BinkyBunny]

That’s great! Thanks Jersey for posting!   I can say that Jack’s did not appear as red or black dots as the photo and description was showing, it was uniformally very bright red – like the second photo but less pink, more red.

Jack is doing fine. Since I have had him more confined, less running around, his urine is more back to normal so I am going to talk the the vet about putting him on pain meds as long as I keep his exercise at a minimum to prevent bleeding, and so if he’s not bleeding anymore, then I don’t have to worry about the pain meds making the bleeding worse – but i need to double check with the vet about that. He is not showing obvious discomfort, but with the size of that thing I can’t imagine this would make him comfortable – it seems like it would fill up the bladder! I’m going to try and remember to get a picture of his xrays so you can see it.

BTW – his bloodwork (MINUS his testosterone) came back all fine so he is healthy enough for surgery, but we have to wait a week for the testosterone results – unless Jack starts exhibiting behaviors (like straining) which means we have to do surgery asap.  He’s hung in there this long, so I hope he can wait for one more week.

 

[RabbitPam]

Petzy, please don’t feel badly. It’s nice of you to offer to help Carrot out. Jersey, good inset. I actually thought regular red urine was less vivid than that, so am intrigued by the comparison. Clots in the real blood makes sense. Spockie once peed a very pale rust color, so I realized it was the red urine that’s OK after some frantic research on line. (Long before I found BB.)

BB, I’m wondering what the vet will do differently based on the testosterone results? I mean, if she looks and finds a testicle before the results are in, she’d remove it anyway, wouldn’t she? Will the test keep her from looking and extending the surgery to include more risk by exploring?
Hope this week goes by quickly.

[BinkyBunny]

Rabbitpam – Basically “Yes” to your last question. 

The tests will determine how she will approach putting Jack under. With rabbits, because of their heart rate being naturally high, my understanding is more drug has to be used to get put them under – almost to the dangerous level and it can wear off sooner. There are a couple  options to put a rabbit under, and she may choose one way over another depending on how long he may need to be in surgery.  If she has to put him under for longer to explore, then she may use a different approach. With that said, I don’t know the specifics – I will ask her about the exacts to learn more. But I do know that in general she would not want to risk having him under for longer unless she knew for sure she had to. It’s best to get in and get out as fast as possible.

[KatnipCrzy]

BinkyBunny- you have pet insurance for Jack don’t you?  I would assume that bladder stones are covered since I can’t see how they would be considered “genetic”.

My best wishes for Jack.  I am assuming the vet wants to get the test results (testosterone) to give her an indication if there is still a retained testicle. Testicles retained in the abdomen are abnormal- and there is not a one specific place that it may be- and it might even look abnormal as well.  And looking around for abnormalities is always a good idea- but it would be best to know if the vet has a reason to prolong the surgery and look for something that might not even be there.

I keep thinking about Jack and hope that everything works out well for him!  I know in dogs and cats the stones are sent to a lab in Minnesota to determine what the stone is made out of- calcium oxalate or struvite crystals- and with dogs and cats a diet can be recommended.  I wonder what they will recommend for Jack.  I know there are some meds that can be given to change the PH of urine to keep crystals/stones from forming again.  Anyway- it sounds like you have an awesome vet that either has those answers or will get the proper answers for you!

[BinkyBunny]

Katnip – Looks like we posted at the same time!

YES, we have insurance, and you bet we are going to use it! All total with his most recent xrays, bloodwork, testosterone test and exam ($400) and then the upcoming surgery and meds, I bet we will be spending over $1,000 total, so I will be filing a claim. VPI is very good about paying claims within a few weeks and I can also look online at the progress of the claim.

Oh, and yes, the vet said that once they get stone out, they will analyze it so that we can figure out a preventative/treatment plan. She had mentioned something about infection can cause it, or diet, or ?? but we will know more once the stone is analyzed.

Thanks so much for the best wishes!

[MimzMum]

Poor Jack! *hugs* As always, Jen, I am sending heartfelt healing vibes and prayers your way! I hope the stone is the only reason his mounting is so frantic. And that it comes out quickly and cleanly and doesn’t come back!
Will he have any extended stay in hospital? Perhaps upon his return, Vivian will be happier to see him?
I am surprised that he developed this too, as I know you are very careful with your bunny’s diets. But he probably got this more from his age I would think, than from anything he eats per se.
I know you have a great vet down there. All will be well! ^_^

[BinkyBunny]

Mimz -thank you! He should be able to come home with me after surgery. Vivian is very forgiving and so I think she will be kind (hopefully) in his recovery. Of course, my first priority will be making sure he heals and is comfortable, but if I can safely allow Vivian to be part of the healing process for a short time, I will.

Sometimes these stones are not created by diet. Sometimes it’s just one of those things, but IF it has to do with calcium and he may seem to have some sensitivity, then I will back away from Dandelion greens and/or anything else the doctor would suggest.

[MooBunnay]

I hope that jack is still doing OK today and no straining, I’m glad the vet found that bladder stone. I hope that all goes well with the surgery, I know that you have the best bunny vet there is so Jack couldn’t be in better hands. I’m looking forward to hearing what the vet finds out, hopefully she finds something to explain the mounting that can be fixed so that he and Vivian can start having some good quality time!

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks moobunnay! He is doing okay. I am beginning to notice things though that he has done for a long while but only I now associate with him being uncomfortable with having that bladder stone. Like, I notice that the way he sits just normally – he brings his back feet more forward and finds more of a centered position to sit instead of resting on his heels. I never related it to to anything because he’s done it for so long, but now knowing what I know, I can see how some of things like this could be due to finding a more comfortable position. Seems he has found ways to deal with it. Poor Jack!

He’s eating and pooping normally, not straining – urinating fine. I am watching like a hawk though!

[MimzMum]

(((((((((((((((continued stay well vibes for Jack)))))))))))))))) I will be curious to know if the irritation from the bladder stone is what drives his frantic mounting. Perhaps it is just one of the many ways he relieves the discomfort?

[PEPPA GEORGIE]

Hope you feeling better jack xxx Lots of love peppa and georgie xx

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By MimzMum on 05/27/2009 12:03 AM
(((((((((((((((continued stay well vibes for Jack)))))))))))))))) I will be curious to know if the irritation from the bladder stone is what drives his frantic mounting.

Me too!  We should find out about the testosterone hopefully by the end of this week, but if it comes back normal or not, I also wonder if this bladder stone just makes his mounting worse.  We will soon see!

[RabbitPam]

I think if today as the end of this week. Did she get the results, or is there one more week of waiting?
(Poor Jack. {{{healing vibes}}}}}}}}}

[LittlePuffyTail]

<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

[BinkyBunny]

I heard back from the vet just a few hours ago! His testosterone levels are normal! Well, part of me was disappointed because I wanted to have a definite answer and possible solution to his behavior. HOWEVER, I did ask my vet again about what she thought about the stone causing this problem, and though of course, she couldn’t confirm this (and we really won’t know until after surgery), she said hypothetically, it may be kind of like having an itch that can’t be scratched.

I just am thinking it somehow must be related, because he was increasingly getting more humpy even with Rucy, even when it wasn’t Spring, so maybe as this stone grew and/or changed location or ??, it maybe just made him worse. Of course, I am just spinning in to a world of what ifs.

His surgery is this Wednesday – so keep him in your thoughts!

[RabbitPam]

It’s good, but I agree that it would have been nice to have it be “it” and solving the humping problem. Well, it certainly will help him to get that stone removed. (As someone who passed a kidney stone once…ooch…ouch…eech…I empathize).
{{{{{{{{{{Hang in there, Jack}}}}}}}}}

[Sarita]

Vibes for Jack – please keep us updated on the surgery on Wednesday.

[MimzMum]

Well in a way it’s good to know his hormones are normal. I have no idea what kind of treatment one would put a rabbit on with too high or low testosterone…would that be like bunny thyroid trouble? 0_o
I can imagine that if there’s a stone rolling around in there, it’s got to smart no matter how he lays down, stands up, hops, pees, etc. I have had UTI’s quite a few times in the past..makes you just want to tear the whole assembly out and the littlest irritation is enough to drive you mad!
Healing vibes enroute! ((((((((((((((((hugs for Jack!)))))))))))))))))

[TARM]

{{{{{Jack}}}}}

[jerseygirl]

Posted By BinkyBunny on 05/30/2009 08:59 PM 
HOWEVER, I did ask my vet again about what she thought about the stone causing this problem, and though of course, she couldn’t confirm this (and we really won’t know until after surgery), she said hypothetically, it may be kind of like having an itch that can’t be scratched.

I just am thinking it somehow must be related, because he was increasingly getting more humpy even with Rucy, even when it wasn’t Spring, so maybe as this stone grew and/or changed location or ??, it maybe just made him worse. Of course, I am just spinning in to a world of what ifs.

I thought you might find this interesting…You may have come across it yourself when researching.  It’s a paragraph Dana Krempels wrote in response to a question regarding a neutered but humpy rabbit that had an abcess around the scrotum area.

Sometimes a source of pain or irritation (fleas, mites, foreign body stuck in a tender area such as between the toes or in a scent gland pocket) can make a bunny engage in this type of “displacement behavior” that has nothing to do with sex, but a lot to do with discomfort and frustration.  Check him over completely for any signs of injury or irritation, and i hope that scrotum problem doesn’t recur.

Full Q & A: en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/200…ping-1.htm  An interesting behaviour even if it does relate to Jack’s situation.

Also, with bladder stones, they can cause dribbling so maybe that sensation was confused or caused stimulation?

It would be nice to know exactly why!   Main thing is he’s getting the thing removed.  I will be thinking of him.

[BinkyBunny]

Mimz- IF there was a hormone imbalance, the vet would most likely look for the cause – a testicle inside, tumors etc, and then take out the testicle, or treat for tumors. They are also trying things like “Lupron” which takes hormones away. Lupron is a drug that has been used in humans for certain types of cancers and illnesses where certain hormones can make things worse.

Jersey – THANK YOU! I forgot to post Dana Krempels answer to a question I posed about Jack’s humping – Basically the same thing she wrote to the other person with the important exception of an irritation possibly causing this.

I could really see how this could be related though, like you said, bladder stones can be very uncomfortable and make you feel like you have to go the bathroom all the time, cause leaking etc. It can’t be any different for a bunny, so that constant feeling certainly would not be comfortable and I could really see where it may be related. It makes perfect sense.

I guess time will tell! Keeping my fingers crossed!!

Time will tell!

[lottin_uk]

Hi BB
Best wishes for Jack for tomorrow. Will b thinking of you both!
x

[BinkyBunny]

Thank you!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Good Luck Jack! Be a brave little guy and a super recuper!!!!

[skunklionshow]

Wow, that’s incrediable.  You have a great vet.  I guess  that sometimes we just don’t think that animals have such extensive issues, which is dumb b/c why wouldn’t they.  What a bunch of craziness!  I was totally out of the loop when your other bunnies passed.  I was shocked & sad b/c your rabbits seem like all of our rabbits.  Just all the best to you and your warren. 

[RabbitPam]

Good luck tomorrow. Let us know what time and how he does.
Nose rubs to Jack and Vivian.

[MooBunnay]

All the bunnies send good wishes to Jack for his surgery tomorrow! And I’m sending good wishes that Jack doesn’t start humping MORE when he feels better

[BinkyBunny]

Thank you so much!

[jerseygirl]

(((Jack))) (((Get sleep vibes for you Jennifer)))

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks Jersey!

I just got a call from the vet, and Jack is out of surgery and got through it just fine. She also said for as large as his bladder stone is, the bladder itself looked good. She said she has seen much worse. I guess those stones can really mess up the bladder. The stone was smooth and relatively easy to get out.

He is now in xrays again just to double check that there aren’t other little stones floating about that may have been missed.

He will be staying overnight. I wasn’t expecting that at first, but I guess that is standard in this case (at least for what he has gone through). I read somewhere about that last night too (as my anxiousness got the best of me).

I keep thinking about my poor nervous Jack in a strange place tonight – hopefully he’s too high on pain meds right now and just wanting to sleep – too tired to be worried about where he is. But I know he’ll get the best care and continue to get properly hydrated this way.

Thanks for all the well-wishes, and I’ll keep you updated. I pick him up tomorrow around 10:30am.

[RabbitPam]

BB, that’s good news.
I doubt it will bother him as much as it bothers you. That’s pretty major surgery and he will be tired and getting his systems back on line in the next 24 hrs. so he won’t mind so much. Is she giving him any kind of special diet to prevent new stones? I’ve only heard of kidney stones, not bladder stones.

It will be interesting to see if Vivian tries to comfort him when he gets home. I bet she does.

[jerseygirl]

Good news. Did she do any exploration while he was under?

[Sarita]

Vibes to Jack for his recovery – please keep us updated on him.

[BinkyBunny]

Jack is doing well. He actually had quite a bit of energy, and honked and tried to mount Vivian which I stopped right away of course. Vivian snuggled with him on the car ride home, but she was a bit nippy back at the house. I also smelled Jack and he smelled like several different perfumes from people holding him. So that might have been it. When Jack was gone, Vivian also got strangely territorial and seemed fearful. She lunge at us, and growl. I was able to settle her down though with lots of love and she stopped. She also hasn’t been like that though once Jack settled in, but she did get a bit nippy about the litterboxes.

Then they settled down and I separated to give him more rest, and also to let his own smell settle back onto his fur.

The incision looks really good, not sore at all, just perfect. We also have to give him subcutaneous fluids daily for five days, and then every other day until the next appointment in two weeks.

He has pain meds, metacam) and antibiotics (trimethorprim) as well.

I made an extra soft bed for him and he’s lying on that right now – eating his greens in a stretched out motion.

Though we don’t know yet for sure what kind of stone it is (we will), it’s still important for Jack to get more fluids in his system. And actually, Jack does not drink alot of water so I know that can sometimes cause stones.

So to get more fluids in him I am following vets orders to:

1. Wean him off of pellets.
2. He already gets lots of leafy greens but I will give them to him wet. And actually dandelion and parsley are fine because even though they are higher in calcium, they are natural diuretics.
3. Add lower calcium veggies to his diet (carrots, celery in 1″ chunks, dark green lettuces and even sweet potato). And though some of those are higher in sugar and carbs, because he won’t be getting pellets, then these foods are okay.
4. Offer unsweetened juice/water blend (start of 50/50) and then gradually reduce to 10% to encourage more water intake.

Once we know what kind of stone there may be further tips and preventative measures.

He’s doing fine so far! (knock on wood)

[Deleted User]

I’m glad for you Jack is doing well. *vibes*!!!

— one of my rabbits, Mops, doesn’t drink a lot either (he does have thicker urine than my other rabbits, too) so these are great tips from your vet.

Sweet potato, really??? I thought they were on the toxic plant list for rabbits. My mini rex has eaten from them in stealth before I knew he could jump that high into my shelves and I was so worried he’d get poisoned. He seemed to really like them, too…

[BinkyBunny]

I know, I said the exact same thing,(it’s not on our toxic list, but on the “ones to avoid” list.   Grains are on that list too, but they are not toxic, just high in carbs.   So the same thing goes for sweet pototoes.    She did confirm they just are very high in carbs/starches and that, of course, this can cause digestive problems over time for bunnies.  This should not be put into the diet of bunnies who regularly get pellets.  But because Jack would not be receiving any carbs really now once we wean him off the pellets, then he needs to get them in other ways, and so it’s okay. (obviously, I can go overboard on this though – just a little to add to his diet).

I had actually asked her about this a while back too because the APD pumpkin cookies have sweet pototo as well.  Not toxic, just should be given sparingly.

If she were any other vet, I may have questioned it even more, but she is one of the top rabbit savvy vets in the nation and so after she settled my concerns, I was okay with it.

 

[Sarita]

Interesting info on the diet. I have heard too that rabbits who are not on pellets are fine to have more as far as carrots (there is alot of good nutrition in carrots and I’ve heard of people giving sweet potato too). I’m not certain my rabbits would even eat a raw sweet potato – I know I don’t find them terribly palatable. It certainly makes sense that you have to compensate in other ways when you don’t give pellets. I sometimes give raw nuts to my pellet free rabbits too (not a lot but just a little and not every day – maybe once a week).

I hope you have success getting him to drink more water – I have not with my sludge rabbits or any other of my rabbits who aren’t big water drinkers.

I’ll be curious to hear what the results of the test on the stone are as well.

[Sarita]

I too wonder why some rabbits get sludge and some form stones…

[BinkyBunny]

Sarita, I don’t know but I will ask her at the follow-up appointment.

[MimzMum]

Glad to hear Jack came through it all okay! ((((((fast recovery for Jack))))))))))
I noticed that about those particular APD cookies too, and found that if my bunnies get too many of those (or just too much of one cookie per day) it will affect their bowels. So I had to give up on them altogether.
I read something somewhere, it may have been here, about how the shape of certain vegetables denotes their area of greatest enhancement in the body…the sweet potato ‘looks like’ the pancreas, so it’s supposed to be good for any ailments of that organ. (Needless to say, I had to ask the hubby if he wouldn’t reconsider eating them as he has chronic pancreatitis, but it was a no go…he hates them.)
Sounds like Vivian missed her big fluffy love bundle. ^_^ Well…to a point.
I’m eager to hear what the final conclusions are! In the meantime, more healing vibes coming your way! ((((((((hugs)))))))))))

[RabbitPam]

MM, does that mean that my eating a huge cabbage last week will make me smarter???

How’s Jack doing today? Update, please. Nose rubs to him, and to Vivian.

[LilynJestersMama]

I’m so glad to hear that Jack did well with his surgery! Yay!!!!! I hope the vet can offer more news on the stones. I bet Vivian missed him (even his humping!) hehe She knows that’s a sign of his ‘love’

I have been out of the loop and I hope that everyone is doing well (and their buns)!

I got laid off a few weeks ago and have kinda been in a funk. I am getting out of it though

Thank goodness for my cute buns who put a smile on my face….and my hubby too! hehe

Jester and Lily are doing great. Jester loves to chase Lily- amazes me how fast they zip around here!

[BinkyBunny]

Well…Jack is doing well, but geeeeze, he is worse than ever with the mounting, He now leaped over the xpen to go find Vivian, and he finally has taken to mounting his toy bunny at least. Poor Jack and poor Vivian, she still will try to go over to his side of the pen when he has calmed down. She just wants to snuggle, but Jack…. I seriously am feeling worried about this as he cannot live a life like this. I just hope he will soon settle down.

[Miyuki]

I’m glad Jack is doing well after surgery (even if he is still trying to mount…)! It seems as though even though they’re not bonded Vivian still has a soft spot for Jack. Hopefully Jack will settle down and snuggle with her soon!

[LilynJestersMama]

Leaped OVER the xpen? How high is it? hehe

Glad he’s doing well but ugh, too bad there’s not something you could give him to calm those hormones……luckily he’s taken a liking to his stuffed toy to give Vivian a little break!

Jester chases Lily but he hasn’t been able to get her close enough or still enough to hump her. Maybe that’s why he chases her so much- he wants to. Either he lets her get away or she’s faster. Even though they aren’t successfully bonded yet, I’m glad they tolerate each other enough to be turned out loose at the same time.

[BinkyBunny]

I had the shorter xpen because in the five years that I have had him, he’s never shown to be a big jumper, and he never got over this size pen even in all the years he was confined to it, when he & Rucy were separated from Bailey.

I am just hoping this new upped crazy behavior is due to the stress of all meds and injections he has been on. Today is the first day where we don’t have to give him anymore oral meds, and his subcutanious fluid injections are only every other day, so I am hoping that as his life returns back to a more peaceful exisitence, he will also become settled. I finally got him settled down by keeping Vivian completely in another area closed by a door, but it’s definiitely not ideal. I had hoped that maybe I could keep them together in the bunny room even if they had to be separated, but obviously not a good idea at this point. Then I thought if I kept her in the foyer, but for him to settle down, we basically have to shut off half the house so he can’t even get much of a scent of her, and we just can’t do that as the summer progresses as we need air flow, but for now it’s okay.

So, I’m just going to give him some time completely by himself to settle down and maybe in a couple of weeks or so, I’ll just starting the bonding process over.

[Balefulregards]

I sense how frustrated you are BB – But if anyone can figure this out, Its You.

Perhaps the increased mounting is related to him being away from her…him feeling better and wanting to let her know that he still loves her – That frantic “ILOVEYOUVIVIAN”

Do you think he is worried she might disappear like Rucy – not that Rucy disappeared, per se …

OR I am completely projecting human emotions on Jack and anthropomorphizing him.

Maybe he is just a hella humpy guy.

[BinkyBunny]

balefulregards – I just don’t know. I sure wish I know…I so wish I had the answer! (banging head against wall). I don’t know if you’re anthropomorphizing anymore than I am. I can get really whacky with that especially if I suspect they are sad or something. It’s very very difficult to get out of our heads and think like a bunny.

I just posted a new thread regarding this as the vet had some new stuff to say about it too. https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aff/3/aft/105622/afv/topic/afnp/113597/Default.aspx

OH.. I forgot to say what the stone was – we found out today – it was calcium oxide. Now those kinds of stones can reoccur. The thing is he didn’t get very many pellets at all, about a tablespoon, and he has always gotten tons of greens, but i think his biggest issue is not taking enough fluids. He eats alot of hay, and so he does need to be getting more fluids in. So far he has taken to the sweet potato, pieces celery and carrots (to make up for no pellets at all), but he doesn’t seem to like any of the juice waters! So far I’ve tried strawberry/banana and now apple.

Next week he has an follow-up and from there the vet and I will discuss even more prevention options depending on how the follow-up goes. There are meds that can help prevent the stones from coming back.

LilyJestersMama – I’m sorry to hear that you got laid off! Seems like there is alot of that going around – this economy!   Our bunnies do have a way of cheering us up and getting us though the rough times. I always say – they are magic! .   Anyway, I’m sure things will look up for you again soon.

[RabbitPam]

Jack
I sympathize with having the stones. Yes, he needs extra water daily.

BB, I had a really goofy idea so naturally I thought I’d post it publicly. Anyway, I was wondering if the issue isn’t so much Jack having something that makes him hump Vivian more than ever, but whether it’s Vivian who is stimulating him more? What if Vivian has a hormone imbalance that makes her give off the scent that says she’s in heat? Like it’s stuck in the ON position or something. If she has high hormone levels despite being spayed, that could add to her aggressive behavior at the shelter, and maybe she just smells delicious to Jack. Was she ever tested?

Anyway, we know that it takes a month post-spay for the girls to calm down, so maybe Jack’s innards need to settle over a couple of weeks to relax now that the stone is gone. Hang in there.

[jerseygirl]

Not too goofy Pam. I had thought something similar before – that maybe Vivian was not actually fully spayed or something. I had heard that neutered bucks can behave like this sometimes toward unspayed does. But I figured that wouldn’t be the case since she was at shelter for some time, probably spayed via their vet.

[Sarita]

I’m very curious as to what Dr. Harvey thinks is the cause of these – obviously she feels that now that he has this problem that restructuring his diet is a must but does she think that calcium in the diet is the cause? I’m always very curious about this because of my bladder sludge rabbits and most of my vets say that there is not a whole lot known about this really. Obviously all my rabbits have the same diet but not all have sludge so I have to think that it just cannot be all diet…of course you get lots of different vets all saying different things about this. I’ll be very interested to know what she recommends as other preventions. Also if you do remember ask her why some get sludge and some get stones (are they really at all related?). The next time I have to take one of my rabbits to the vet (hopefully far far in the future) I’m going to try to remember to ask as well.

Most of my rabbits don’t like the fruit drinks either. My vet did recommend distilled water as well as this has no calcium so that might be something to ask Dr. Harvey about.

[jerseygirl]

My memory is sketchy on this but I was reading that the urine PH can contribute formation of stones. There was some mention of a substance that can neutralise the urine – commonly given to dogs. Again – I’m sorry, I can’t recall the details. Also, oxalates in diet I think. Though dietry calcium is watered down and mostly peed out, the oxalates cause a chem reaction with calcium (?memory). Whether this forms the crystals in sludge or contributes to stones – I do not remember. I’m going to have to re-read it all…

[BinkyBunny]

Jersey – you are right that there is a med. That’s actually what we are going to discuss this Thursday at the next appointment. I’ll try and remember to post the name of it.

Rabbitpam – that’s actually a very good thought. – I’m actually going to copy your post, and respond at the other thread where I focus on the humping behavior.

Sarita – you know, I thought I asked her why and I thought she said that it’s one of those still unknowns, but now…honestly, after everything I’ve read, and all the instructions I’ve been following…I am thinking…did I really ask her what she thought causes this? I am getting old! I mean I know I’ve read it can be part of just an disease where the rabbits just can’t metabolize calcium well. As well as it can be diet related as well and/or diet can just make it worse for a bunny with this problem, but I just can’t remembrer if I asked her that direct question. huh! I will ask her (again?) for sure this week at the next appointment.

[BinkyBunny]

I FINALLY FOUND a juice that Jack likes.   (Note:The vet said the juice itself has to be actual juice – no added stuff.  Even the stuff that says 100% juice doesn’t mean that the ingredients all are just 100% of that fruit juice, it just means that they mixed in 100% juice with all of the other ingredients. So you have to watch for those sneaky tricks!)

I left it there this morning and now the juice is gone.  So unless there is a mouse in the house, Jack drank it even if I didn’t see him drink it yet.

It’s 100% apple juice of three different types of apples.  And right now I mix that with 50/50 water, but I will decrease down to 10%.  NOTE:This is addition to his other water bowl. I also wouldn’t do this UNLESS your rabbit has a problem like Jack. Otherwise, needless sugar intake isn’t advised.

[Sarita]

I’ll have to look for this for Twizzler thanks! I never thought about juice and other stuff either – it’s so confusing looking at all the labels and for my ownself I’m not very good at reading labels. My vet suggested trying the juice as well to get her to drink more.

[babybunsmum]

how is jack doing now? i just got caught up on his health issues… poor boy! i wonder if his humping will settle down as his incision heals? or possibly as he adjusts to not having the painful stone there. i’ve heard that sometimes our bodies have a ‘memory’ and you can have phantom feelings until your body adjusts… maybe bunnies are similar that way? i suspected this after baby’s surgery when her belly lump was removed. after her meds were all done and her incision was nicely healing it still took her about a week to realize she didn’t have the painful sore anymore. all of a sudden it was like she realized the sore was gone because she started a habit of binkying like mad! ((((((continued healing vibes for jack))))))

[Furface]

I’m gald he came through the surgery so well, good luck with the humping, I hope he settles down.
I had to force feed mine after his neuter surgery & it was sweet potato baby food that the vet told me to use, something about them loving it so it will stimulate appitie – worked too.

[Moonlight_Wolf]

Yes congrats on getting him through surgery well, I am still curious to see if his continual humping will persist.

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks! He is healing so well. I never bothered with his incision, and it has always looked so good – barely can tell it’s there. Tonight, was hopefully his last subcutaneous fluid. We have a follow-up appointment tomorrow, where they will determine whether or not we need to continue. They will be doing a urinalsis. I feel confident thought that he now is getting plenty of fluids on his own. He drinks a ton of the flavored water now even though I’ve got it down to just about 20% – need to get down to 10%. I refill his flavored water bowl twice a day!

I sure hope that humping subsides too! He is still humpy – but it’s just less frantic.Babybuns – I sure hope Jack is similar in a way that it will make him stop humping!  I started a new link regarding just the humpy behavior

https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/5…spx#117078

[BinkyBunny]

Jack has been peeing like crazy now with all of his fluid intake, but could he pee a drop at the vets office? No! And his bladder remained empty while we were there, so now I have to get a sample at home and bring it to the vets.

Oh, and I specifically asked her about why do some bunnies have calcium problems. Especially for a bunny like Jack who really doesn’t have a large amount of calcium – he never was a big pellet eater, lots of fluids via greens, but he was NOT a big drinker. She said some bunnies just don’t have the ability to metabolize calcium normally. It’s like a type of disease or illness. So though diet does play a part in helping a bunny who has this type of problem, diet is not the cause of the problem. There are meds and fluid treatment (if a bunny won’t drink enough) that can help prevent a bunny with this problem from developing stones. So once I get Jack’s urine sample, we will see how well it looks with all of the fluid intake and see if we need to take further steps.

I forgot to get the name of the medicine she was talking about, but I will get the name when she calls me with the results of the urinalysis.

[Quantum]

Thank you for posting the follow-up on Jack!  I’ve been reading and thinking about the poor guy.  That’s very interesting about the calcium.  Quantum’s urine tended to be a bit sludgy sometimes, but she wasn’t much of a drinker or hay eater.  The new guy (who, I think, will be “Bean” both because he’s small, it fits and he gets a look that reminds me of Judge Roy Bean.  Ahem.) loooooves his water and his hay.  I’m hopeful that that means he’ll stay healthy.

[Sarita]

Thank you for the info. I wish there was more studies done on this, maybe there will be eventually. I’ve been hearing more and more that diet probably is not the cause for this problem which actually makes it more frustrating since there does not seem much that can be done about it (at this point). Let us know the results of the urinalysis too.

[Author]

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