Jack Humping update

[BinkyBunny]

So I thought I would start this as a separate thread because now that Jack’s surgery to remove the stone is over and he is healing well and he is still humpy, there are things I am going to do to try and deal with this new crazy problem and I thought it may be helpful.

Mounting can be due to behaviorial and/or medical reasons.

So to recap – Jack has been neutered for five years, and  has always liked to mount, but this year, even with Rucy, he was getting more humpy.  And when Vivian came into the picture, he went completely nutty, and now after his surgery, if Vivian is anywhere near him, he is seriously ready for the funny farm.  I recently posted that he even leaped over the xpen.

We had his testosterone checked and it came out normal so that is okay. 

I just talked to the vet and the other thing she brought up was the fact that some rabbits as they age will get adrenal tumors and cause this this behavior.  However, since he only shows this behavior when he is contact with Vivian, then we’re just not sure.  Because the thought is that if it is the tumors, it would make him sexually active all the time, trying to hump his toy bunny.   But also, she wasn’t 100% if that would be the only way he would react – that if being stimulated would just it worse.  So we are going to do a blood panel when he’s healed from surgery to check for steroid levels that would indicate the possibility of the adrenal tumors.

She also said that she has seen in dogs where if there are two dogs, and the female has a UTI, it can make the male dog humpy.  I don’t see any UTI symptoms in Vivian, but you don’t always, so that is something to consider.

And of course, it can behaviorial:  So for now, I am approaching it that way until I have any other tests to show otherwise. I do plan on having the tests done just to know for sure if I am up against something medical, but in the meantime, I am focusing on it as a behaviorial issue:  He’s been through alot in the last few months, and he’s never been the most secure of rabbits, and so maybe it’s his way to display dominance and frustration.

He’s staying calm when Vivian is completely out of sight and scent.  He also now has the whole bunny room back just for himself where he living back the way he was, and I try and keep on a regular schedule of food, play and cleaning.  All with the hopes to bring in some normalcy and calm back to his life.  Then I will start over once he has had time and once I have the tests done if need be.

 

[Sarita]

Wow, very interesting, but still frustrating since there are lots of reasons, but you still don’t know what’s going on with Jack.

Maybe you need an animal communicator :~)

[BinkyBunny]

Sarita – as much as I am a skeptic, I am still open and I actually had been thinking about that! 

[BinkyBunny]

 

I am reposting rabbitpams post here:

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 FROM RABBITPAM:

 

I sympathize with having the stones. Yes, he needs extra water daily.

BB, I had a really goofy idea so naturally I thought I’d post it publicly. Anyway, I was wondering if the issue isn’t so much Jack having something that makes him hump Vivian more than ever, but whether it’s Vivian who is stimulating him more? What if Vivian has a hormone imbalance that makes her give off the scent that says she’s in heat? Like it’s stuck in the ON position or something. If she has high hormone levels despite being spayed, that could add to her aggressive behavior at the shelter, and maybe she just smells delicious to Jack. Was she ever tested?

Anyway, we know that it takes a month post-spay for the girls to calm down, so maybe Jack’s innards need to settle over a couple of weeks to relax now that the stone is gone. Hang in there.

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MY RESPONSE:

I don’t think that is goofy at all. The vet actually mentioned that maybe it was Vivian – a UTI or something. So we actually have an appointment for her too. So we’ll see!    He definitely finds her delicious!  I mean part of it is dominance, but he does more honking and “mating” ritual behavior before he tries to mount,  more than he does the dominance mounting behavior. 

And though Vivian may have been aggressive at the shelter (territorial with her cage).  She is not like that at all here.  She is very sweet.  She will try and bite or scratch only when she thinks you are trying to pick her up, but other than that, she doesn’t show any territorial aggression or anything. (Nothing like Rucy used  to do in her younger days).    Vivian is really such a smart, funny and very sweet bunny.

And the other thing that really brings me back to thinking it’s just him is that during dating he went bonker trying to mate every single date. One we barely got in the pen before he humped her.  She got in and before she could even figure out where she was he mounted her.(but again, it was the beginning of Spring – so….so many different factors it’s hard to narrow!)   It was only Vivian that didn’t end up fighting with him about it.  She does need to though, he doesn’t get aggressive with her so far when she does speak her mind, but she doesn’t do it very often. So, I don’t know. Vivian is so sweet and nice to him even when he’s rude.

I don’t know – I’m just thinking myself into circles- so many different factors to consider. We’ll just try and conquer them one at a time I guess.

First factor – WHEN IS SPRING OFFICIALLY OVER?!!  (and do bunnies have this marked on their calendars?!)

I have never felt so baffled before which is why I decided to just to post about it..  This is definitely a problem that I haven’t figured out yet.  And hopefully if I solve this problem – then, it will help someone else dealing with something similar. 

 

[bunnytowne]

What a crazy situation.   Jack will you  just calm down buddy.    Hmmm.  Vivian having a strong hormonal smell.   Something to look into since she is going to the vet.   Some rabbits can be so totally baffling.

[bunnytowne]

Is Jack having a Mid-Life Crisis?

[BinkyBunny]

HAHHA. I think so! And actually I just read where adrenal tumors can cause this and as they increase things can get worse, but in the meantime, it may just seem situational. Only tests will really show if he has a current problem with this. Ech. I think I am the one who is going to have a mid-life crises now.

[BinkyBunny]

After getting the okay from the vet for Jack to run around and be all humpy if he wants, I’ve allowed Jack and Vivian to run around this week. Vivian stays in the foyer for now, and Jack hates to go in there. (He hates hates hates hardwood floors, and he has to cross a bunch of it to get to the foyer, so he won’t do it.) So she can go in there to escape from him if she wants. He is still humpy, but just slower at it. But he still has one track mind – just less frantic about it. The good thing though is that Vivian, so far seems to be okay with being pursued – she’ll even do a binky or two when he sits still.

She does try to get him to cuddle, but he just cannot keep his manners in check. He does get annoying and so she’ll head back to her area when she’s had enough, and then later I will lock him in the bunnyroom so she can have some free time to roam the house without being in constant pursuit.

Tomorrow is the follow up vet appointment for Jack, and Vivian has an appointment too to see if there is something, like a UTI, that could be affecting how humpy he is. So we’ll see!

[MimzMum]

You know, BB..not to add more to the plate, but I wonder too about any ‘signals’ Vivian may be sending Jack that can’t be registered on a blood panel. You say she was aggressive at the shelter, but when you brought her home she was much better and yet (although I know she likes Jack sometimes) she just isn’t always calm around Jack. I wonder if she is sending him some kind of mixed signals with some slight body language or even the electrical impulse of emotion that you may not see…one that one minute sends him the encouragement to come hither, the next minute she is remembering the shelter and deciding, “No way! I’ve had enough of other bunnies!” Is any of that making sense?
Anyway, it’s just another one of my random thoughts. I keep thinking my bunnies are trying to tell me things that I’d have to be Uri Geller to pick up…you just see those subtle changes in movement and you have to ask yourself…”Was that a shot?” ^_^

Sure hope the vet gets this figured out. Eeegh! This has to have you all over a barrel!

[BinkyBunny]

I could see that Mimz.  I have been looking for body language that might set him off.  She’s so  happy and playful, she loves to explore and do binkies, and that makes him excited. Rucy had alot less energy as she aged as well  as with her hernia etc, she just couldn’t be as energetic.

Also, at times, it seems like Vivian even likes the pursuit UNTIL he gets too serious with mounting.  She loves to run and I think with him pursuing her, she can really have fun running about throughout the house.  She’ll start binkying around even if he’s not right on her tail.  She’ll even grab some greens on the run, or binky while he’s sitting still which will get him pursuing again.  But if he doesn’t stop – which he doesn’t  then she gets bent.  She’ll try to tell him, let’s just rest and cuddle, but he has a very hard time just cuddling. (typical  male HAHA)

She did get her urine checked today and she does not have a UTI so he’s not reacting to that.  So that is factor out of the way.

He did hump her in the carrier three times when got to the vets office – so I definitely think it’s somewhat stress related as well, which is why I am trying to make his world as calm and predictable as possible since all meds and poking and prodding have stopped now.   As of now he is drinking plenty of fluids, so he doesn’t have to be poked every other day, but we need to get the results back from his urinalysis before we know if he has to be on meds or fluid or not.

So  as of today this is where I am at with the Mounting.

These are the reason I know of so far:  Stress, excitement, dominance, and possibly hormonal (due to spring and/or a disorder).  It could be all or just a couple of these things.

Dealing with his STRESS LEVEL: (though this can lend itself to the next two issues)

• He’s back in his familiar territory in bunnyroom. 
• On a predictable schedule of food, cleaning, etc.
• No more meds or fluids forced into him as of today
• Regular affection to help him feel loved, safe and Kingish.
• Stunt Double to mount when he must get the freak on.

DOMINANCE – He does mount for dominance (less honking, more just I’m the boss type of mounting):

• I think time really is the solution with this because they don’t fight at all and stress methods only just delay when he gets started with this.(though they were very useful in the beginning) 
• I allow Vivian to enter into the HIS territory at her own free will.  if she doesn’t come to visit though, he will go sit out in front of the foyer and wait for her to come out.   But when she comes to visit him, she’ll mark in his territory. (she likes it in there and wants to hang out and cuddle with him, but he just mounts her)  It’s been the 4th day, and her marking is slowing down a bit, and he has stopped remarking her poo so much – by chinning it.  He is just getting used to her scent there, but he will continue to dominate her though I think until she stops marking sooo much.

EXCITEMENT AND HORMONES : Honking, circling)

• Springtime does end thank goodness, but the long warm California summers I think it does  prolong this – nothing I can do but try and close the blinds to prevent longer hours of bright light -, but I still think the scent of blooming flowers and greenery may affect this??
• He is just going to have to get used to Vivian’s new energetic self and he may have to use the stunt bunny, BeeBee, more often for this. He seems to be learning to do this FINALLY
• My vet is researching more about the hormone levels in rabbits, and if this doesn’t get any better soon, we will have him tested for adrenal tumors. I just have to finish paying off the monster surgery bill first.  (waiting for insurance reinbursement)

 

When Vivian and Jack got home from the Vet, they snuggled for a while (THAT was new), ate and then once Jack got his energy back he felt the need to endlessly mount.  However, he is much slower – much less frantic about it.  Also, he does go over now and mount BeeBee (the stunt double) if he just has gotta have it and can’t get it from Vivian.  THANK GOODNESS!!!!! 
But even so,  Vivian finally had enough and just went back to her  space in the foyer.  (he won’t go in there AND he now settles down once she is there)  I think with less stress in his life he’s becoming less freaky about even knowing she’s around

So though I would like for them to live together, and maybe they eventually will, at least this way, it is a livable situation for everybody and bunny.  Vivian is perfect with her habits and she doesn’t do any poopwars except for in the bunnyroom  so having her separated is easy – not much to really clean except for her litterbox.  Easy!  So happy, because I really love Vivian, and I just want them both to be happy and though I know she would love to have a snuggle partner, it will just have to be me and Steve, and occasionally Jack unless he can get some manners.

 

[jerseygirl]

On the adrenal thing…I’m confused. Isn’t it that a tumor may effect the sex hormones so testosterone would cause the humping? Yet you have the results for testosterone come back as normal. Is there other hormones that come into play?

How was Vivian after the pet carrier humping? You said they snuggled once home – seems similar to the other time she gave in and allowed him to mount. Obviously it’s important to investigate Jacks behaviour and medical situ but with these two buns, I can’t help but wonder if it’s just 2 big personalities learning how to live with one another!

[BinkyBunny]

yes, you are right about the adrenal thing and there are other hormones that come into play. I think three other. (two for sure) And though testosterone came back normal, it was compared to the norm of cats and dogs. After researching, I am finding there may be a different norm for rabbits, brought this up with the vet and she is also researching this now.

Vivian was too freaked out just being at the vets office that she didn’t even seem to notice. I gave her lots of head rubs and pushed Jack off after a bit as he likes to bite while he humps.

Time will tell with these two bunnies that’s for sure! it has been a huge baffle for me. I do notice that Jack is settling down a bit and with Springtime moving on, with his surgery over, and less stress who really knows if any of that has come into play or if they just have to figure each other out. Definitely my most challenging behaviorial experience I have ever dealt with.

I am very happy though that Jack has stopped being so frantic in his pursuit. After surgery I thought he was going to lose his mind and hurt himself.

But slowly he seems to be settling…for Jack….I consider it settling. (he’s still a nutbun)

[bunnytowne]

Well hopefully things will get straightened out and Jack will be settling down even more.  Hopefully the vet can get the proper info on the testosterone level.

[BinkyBunny]

Well, Jack has DEFINITELY settled down. He’s still humpy Jack, (I think he will forever try), but he’s back  down to just what he was like with Rucy. Now if Vivian rejects him, he just is like “eh, okay” and goes off to munch food or lie down or hang out with a human who will give him nose scratches.

So for now, I am holding off on doing more expensive tests. 

I don’t know if his behavior is back to normal because he has the large stone out of his bladder and he’s healed from surgery, if Springtime is over, if it’s because I’ve made huge efforts to keep things normal and stress free (less changes) in his bunny world, or what…or all of it. I don’t know, and at this point, all I am just happy to have him be normal again – he’s my goofy, bossy, sweet, humpity bunny Jack.

[RabbitPam]

Does this mean we will have the webcams turned on again soon? Hmmmmm?

[BinkyBunny]

Actually, I was just talking about that today. At least you be able to see Vivian during they day -she usually heads over to the bunnyroom around noon and hangs out until midnight (though she might go back to her pen for about an hour during the day)

Hopefully this weekend we’ll have it up.

[bunnytowne]

OH great bunny cams again.   OH Mr. Jack Bunny you have settled down some  excellent.   Now your Mummy can relax.

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