Not eating cecotropes while bonding

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This topic has 7sd replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 10 months, 2 weeks ago by DanaNM.

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- 01/02/2024 at 12:43 PM
  spillthetrex
  Participant
  4 posts
  Spay/Neuter
  Are your bunnies spayed/neutered?
  
  Yes, 2+ years for both
  
  Housing
  Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.).
  
  We’ve been bonding using the 24/7 method since last Tuesday (December 26). We were in a neutral location that was not at their permanent home due to lack of neutral zones in the permanent home. We moved them to their permanent home (after a deep clean with white vinegar) on Sunday, Dec 31. They currently have 14 sq feet in their x-pen set up.
  
  Bonding background
  Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”?
  
  Yes. Have had both buns for over 2 years.
  
  How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.?
  
  Female bunny: started anxious but has transitioned to being curious, tries to be affectionate, and seems to want to get along with male bunny. She requests grooming but male bun has yet to oblige.
  
  Male bunny: His personality seems to change as the day moves on. After morning stress bonding (10ish minutes in a carrier together being walked around or set on the ground and occasionally disrupted) he zones out completely. As he comes back into himself he is grumpy and nippy. He occasionally grunts (though he has always been a vocal rabbit) and uses his paws to “push” female bun away. He chases at night, usually around 2-4am. The chasing behavior only started after being moved to their current, permanent, location. The chases last less than 5 seconds though they are frequent during the time he does chase. Chasing the female rabbit seems to scare her and she gets extra jumpy so even when he approaches in a friendly manner she’ll jump and run which will result in him chasing.
  
  Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)?
  
  This is my second attempt bonding these buns and I decided not to do litter or cage swaps this time but have been regularly alternating their toys for the last two years. I also fed them their pellets in view of each other for a few months. The first bonding attempt was April 2021.
  
  If so, for how long?
  
  See above.
  
  Have you started sessions yet?
  
  Started 24/7 bonding on December 26.
  
  How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies?
  
  First attempt was April 2021. This time it has been a week.
  
  How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they?
  
  24/7 for the past week.
  
  Have you tried any stressing techniques?
  
  Yes. Morning carrier time as I clean up their space which usually takes about 10-15 minutes. Plus the 20-25 minute car ride to and from the separate bonding area.
  
  More info
  
  After nearly a week of bonding 24/7, yesterday there were a few cecotropes that went uneaten. There was one again this morning. Additionally, my female rabbit would not eat her favorite treat nor was she interested in cilantro (which she usually inhales) which had me suspicious it was her. Of course, now that I’ve typed everything out she’s eaten the cilantro (which I put baby gas drops on) and she finished her treat. However, she left another cecotrope behind. I saw her eat one this morning and she was hopping around curiously after the morning carrier session as usual but I’m still worried and haven’t found anything about not eating cecotropes while bonding, so I’d be grateful for any advice you all have for us. Apologies for the lengthy message and thank you for reading.
- 01/02/2024 at 3:13 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Bonding, especially 24/7 bonding, can be stressful for rabbits. It sounds like your female might have been having a bit of GI discomfort, but that it probably passed (sometimes they just get a gas bubble that makes them very uncomfortable for a short while). Were they getting extra treats or pellets during bonding? I’m wondering if maybe she produced some extra cecotropes from eating a slightly richer diet. I think the uneaten cecotropes are less worrisome than the lack of interest in the treat.
  
  How are they doing as a pair? It sounds like they are bonded but in the cementing phase if you moved them into their permanent home? Does she seem relaxed around her bond-mate?
  
  I think this is OK to monitor for now, but if she shows any decline in appetite again then she might need some attention.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
  - 01/03/2024 at 4:53 PM
    spillthetrex
    Participant
    4 posts
    Thank you for the validation, DanaNM! Once she ate the cilantro with the gas drops on it, I felt much better and it seems she feels better, too. No extra pellets, though she may have been eating more than her fair share, and the only “treats” they get are half a Oxbow digestive cookie but I did give them more than usual since their eating habits had changed while bonding and I was worried about stasis. She did have a collard leaf with breakfast the day before, so could’ve been that, too, who knows.
    
    They ignore each other most of the day and are curious about each other at dawn and dusk. They flop individually though never at the same time. This morning female bun stole cilantro right out of male bun’s mouth and his only reaction was a feeble grunt or two. Last night the only chasing that happened was a result of male bun binkying like crazy which scared female bun into jumping/running which triggered male bun to follow. 🙄
    
    I appreciate the validation as I was also wondering if they’re in that cementing phase. They’re in their permanent home but I’m still keeping them in limited space (expanded this morning to 16 sq feet. Eventually they’ll have the whole house minus the bathroom.)
  - 01/04/2024 at 6:58 AM
    DanaNM
    Moderator
    9054 posts
    So, to really consider them bonded I would wait to see positive behaviors between them, including grooming each other, cuddling, and sharing the litter box without incident. From what you describe it doesn’t sound like they are quite there yet so I would keep supervising them. Sometimes they can get stuck in the tolerance phase where they aren’t aggressive anymore but they still aren’t bonded, which can lead to problems down the road (I had what I thought was a bond break after 5 months for this reason, and one of my buns got injured in the fight that ensued).
    
    If you are finding they aren’t progressing, you may need to move them back to a neutral space or an entirely new location. Sometimes that final move to a brand new place together can really help them finally bond. Do they seem interested in each other? Is one bun more aggressive towards the other?
    
    . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
  - 01/05/2024 at 2:56 AM
    spillthetrex
    Participant
    4 posts
    Thanks! Female bun tries to hang out with him and requests grooms multiple times a day but male bun is really not interested. He mostly turns his head up and ignores her when this happens. If she’s too much in his space with the request he will give a gentle nip. I do not interfere in these happenings. (I hover and pretend I’m not watching, or else watch the security camera just in case I do need to step in!) Happily, his nips are less and less frequent and last night there was no chasing at all. I have seen once or twice what maybe could’ve been grooming from him but also could’ve been gentle fur pulling or nipping the top of her head? It was really hard to tell, and female bun didn’t seem to mind whatever what happening. They’ve been sharing a litter box for days now without incident and they both flop, groom themselves, eat, bathroom, and mirror each other (though yet to flop at the same time!).
    
    I have no intentions to stop supervising, though I admit I am eager to get back to my daily life (aka leave my house)! Appreciate you for keeping me in check and for sharing your cautionary tale. I am wondering if it is worth the mashed banana on the head trick to get them to groom each other? Ideally I want them to figure it out for themselves but that doesn’t seem to be happening…
    
    Female bun is quite interested in male bun, male bun seems apathetic at best. We just moved to a new place from their very neutral initial bonding set up on Sunday and I am unenthusiastic about moving them again as that moved resulted in chasing behaviors. I am going to keep their pen at its current size for a few days and see what happens. Really appreciate your responses!
- 01/05/2024 at 6:38 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  It does sound like progress is slowly being made! I think it could be worth trying the banana on the head trick at this point, I did have another pair that needed the banana to “break the seal” with grooming, and then after that they start grooming each other without the banana. 🙂
  
  Does your male ever request grooming from her? Grooming isn’t always two sided, but you should at least see a little grooming each day, and any unmet grooming requests shouldn’t lead to a disagreement. Often with my pairs one will request grooms and if the other doesn’t do it they just end up cuddling.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 01/06/2024 at 9:12 AM
  spillthetrex
  Participant
  4 posts
  Wow! Thank you so much for the encouragement! He only requests grooms when she does and only sometimes. I spotted them in the middle of headwars today so decided to try the banana and it seems we’ve had a bit of a breakthrough. I mashed some very, very ripe banana and put it on both their heads and they gobbled it up! Male bun even started some grooming without the banana on her (though I’m sure there was some residue) at some point. Unmet grooming requests have not caused any fights or disagreements, one of them usually just hops away or backs down into a loaf and they go on with their days. Female bun tries to cuddle but male bun is still not quite there, though I suspect he’s coming around. I’m feeling way, way more positive and really thank you for your guidance over the last few days!
- 01/07/2024 at 6:43 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  That’s great! Hopefully they keep it up!
  
  And you’re welcome!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
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