2 sets of 2 is a good start...

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 18sd replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 15 years ago by Deleted User.

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- 08/09/2009 at 8:07 PM
  katiep
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  222 posts
  Well, we took some time off bonding because things got a little anxious so now we are going to try again. We decided that maybe all 4 together was a little much but if we can get 2 pairs that is still good. Both are fixed male/female pairs, but have different things to work out.
  
  Pair 1 is doing well, Benny and Flo. They are both easy going bunnies for the most part but have their little quirks…it must be albino males because Benny just wants to mount Flo so bad! He is being patient and that is nice. We decided to let them run around the living room together with close supervision and close the access off to their cages (for territorial reasons) I was worried at first because the living room is not neutral territory but there was no fighting for 2 nights at about 1hr to1 1/2hrs together. When Benny would come over to try and seduce Flo she would just dodge him and run a few feet away. He would just sit there looking confused for a second and then pop up in the air and binky. She would also sneak up behind him, sniff at his side or rear, and than twitch and happily jump away! I think it was a game more than a threat. What steps do we take next to get these two to fall in love? Flo came from a rescue situation that had 20 rabbits in a mans backyard for 2 years. When the organization I belonged to rescued them, every female was pregnant and they all had some battle wounds so i think that’s why she’s a bit skittish.
  
  Pair 2, Rupert and Smokey are proving to be a little more difficult. Smokey is a diva. She is demanding, bossy, possessive and a trouble maker. Rupert is skittish, only likes attention on his terms. I know these aren’t the two “ideal love matches” but pair 1 was a better match and Smokey REALLY doesn’t like other female bunnies!! We’ve tried bonding Rupert a few times to a few other rabbits (both male and female) and it just never really “took” but honestly I never put 100% effort into it but none of them were ever a bad situation. Ruperts comfort zone is his cage, if he’s not in it he’s anxious. The two get along as they groom each other through the cage bars and often lay next to each other but it seems as soon as there is no barrier they are strangers again. Smokey has decided she’s dominant and wants to mount Rupert and he’s ok with that but he is acting dominate demanding to be groomed. When she runs up to him to try and mount him he will either get skittish and hops away or just sits and takes it. Today for example he wouldn’t let her mount him and would hop away. She would follow him, he’d run away. We would stop the chasing as soon as we saw the “warning signs (circling, ears down, tails up)” so it wouldn’t come to fighting but you can tell it was frustrating to Smokey who wasn’t getting to do what she wanted to. We knew she was getting frustrated because she’d hop over to us and start to nip at us like “hey! do something about him, he’s not playing by the dominant bunnys rules!!” We’ve tried letting them eat near each other with treats or salad, Rupert won’t eat out of his pen. We tired newspaper so they can play but they both got possessive about one of the many sheets laying around and we got a little circling. I’m starting to worry that these two are un-bondable. Any tips on these two would be helpful too!!!
- 08/11/2009 at 6:53 PM
  bunnymama
  Participant
  161 posts
  Pair #1 sound pretty good to me. You just really never know which one will end up being dominant. Ithink they just might need more time together and longer sessions if you can.
  
  Pair #2 sound a little like my Baby & Dino that never worked out. Baby thought she should be dominant but doesn’t have it in her. But yet when she would kiss/lick Dino she wanted him to kiss/lick her back and when he didn’t she would just nip him. If you see no positive signs over the next few bonding sessions, they think about stopping for a week or two and then start up again. If still no luck, I’d call it quits.
  
  The bond should be somewhat easy and both buns at some point should seem like they want to be together. If they don’t want to be together, it’s not good to keep trying to push them into a bond.
  
  Seem like you have your hands full and good luck and keep us posted…
- 08/11/2009 at 7:12 PM
  MooBunnay
  Participant
  3087 posts
  As far as Part 1, I agree with you about albino male rabbit observation – I also did a bonding with a albino male bun, and he would mount like crazy. Sometimes we would have to pick him up off the female because we were afraid he was going to have a heart attack, and he would just keep mounting mid-air, haha. Anyways, to get them to fall in love…well, its something you can’t really rush, so I would just recommend continuing the positive bonding sessions that you are having now, and I think eventually they will work everything out. I don’t think there is anything you should force on them since they are doing well progressing on their own.
  
  As far as Part 2, I think it can still work. I think you need to try some “stress bonding” techniques. I would put Rupert and Smokey in a box together, and take them on a car ride before you start their bonding session. This will make them both a little nervous, and hopefully they will then snuggle together during the car ride. Once you get them inside for their bonding session, set them right next to each other, and just keep petting and petting their heads. Hopefully this will get them used to being next to each other and get used to each others scents.
- 08/11/2009 at 8:43 PM
  Deleted User
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  22064 posts
  Two sets of two has to be the first step. Since they are all your rabbits (meaning permanently living in your care) you should be able to get it accomplished because you will have time. Try it in different set-ups, with stressors, and without… and if you find there to be issues you can always take time off and try something new.
  
  Bonding sessions can be frightening, so rabbits tend to act defensively and territorially. As long as the well-being of the rabbits isn’t compromised, I would keep trying, with caution, and it sounds like that’s what you’ve been doing.
- 08/28/2009 at 7:12 PM
  katiep
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  222 posts
  Ok so we’ve been doing the 2 sets of 2 for about 2 1/2 weeks now and things are going really well! Pair 1 is going VERY well, they seem to miss each other when apart and stick around each other while they are out. They have seemingly come to a balance when Benny wants to mount, and Flo doesn’t want to, but he will now give up and let her be. He will not be as pushy as before! Thanks goodness!
  We actually had an incident (not anything bad) where Rupert (Pair 2) his cage door was accidently left open and Smokey hopped in…we didn’t notice at first but the “noises” sounded different so we peaked in and there they were, sitting there in the same pen!! Not sure how long they were together before we noticed. Well, since there was no fighting we just observed…there was a little chasing but nothing bad. Rupert seemed a little concerned that she was there but she was more interested in his stuff than anything. She is a very materialistic bunny strangely enough.
  Well, since pair 2 had such good accidental luck we thought “well, if pair 1 is getting along better…lets she how they get along together in each others pens. So we did, cautiously….and they LOVE IT! Benny does not want to leave and Flo seems happy for the company! Is it too early to combine them into one pen? I don’t want to jump the gun or have any fighting (there has been none at all other than a little chasing). Whats the consensus? Combine Pair 1 or not? Pair 2 is definately not ready to be together but there was alot of grooming tonight which was a good sign. But there was some chasing… they still need to work things out a bit but every day they are getting along better and better! Well, any advice would be great!! Thanks!!!
- 09/02/2009 at 1:52 PM
  Deleted User
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  It’s nice when they hit it off! You definitely do not want a fight to ruin it for them. Are you thinking of moving Smokey and Rupert into Rupert’s pen? If you can sleep nearby I’d say yes. A neutral pen would be safer, but you know Rupert best, if he doesn’t take Smokey’s invasion into his zone as trespassing then it should be OK.
- 09/02/2009 at 8:18 PM
  katiep
  Participant
  222 posts
  Thanks for the advice, I think I might (on my next day off) sleep in the living room next to the door to the rabbit room and see how it goes over a whole night. I’m really encouraged with how well everything is going! I’m not worried that Benny and Flo won’t make it but Rupert and Smokey are still a little ify…she is a jealous bunny so if we are showing Rupert attention she will come over and nip and him. Also if he leave out from under the table she will chase him back under. Its like she wants to interact with him but he doesn’t want to and gets frustrated. Plus he will NOT groom her and she is feeling it’s a bit uneven and gets frustrated and starts to nip. Well, only time will tell! Thanks!
- 10/13/2009 at 7:36 PM
  katiep
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  222 posts
  WE DID IT!!! Well, half way at least! We have one bonded pair! They are absolutely in LOVE! Its adorable to watch! Benny and Flo, who were the easier bond, are now permanently in one pen together. They are so sweet in love it make my teeth hurt! LOL! They have absolutely no issues what so ever and spend all day cuddling and snuggling.
  
  We are still working on the other pair, they get along fine, except Smokey (F) is a jealous bunny and doesn’t like Rupert (M) to get any attention from us. She chases him and nips at him and he definately gets frustrated. Any tips for this duo? I know each bond isn’t guarenteed to work and we’re preparted to just have one bonded pair and 2 individuals but they really do get along, it’s just these details they need to work out. We recently moved so I figured the new territory would help with the jealousy and maybe territory but it seems the same. Any tips are greatly appreciated. I can tell they are both lonely and would love to be together in the pen but I just don’t trust that there won’t be a fight. Thanks!
- 10/14/2009 at 1:21 AM
  jerseygirl
  Moderator
  22345 posts
  Well done! Seeing them must spur you on to get the remaining pair bonded. It sounds like you’re a good way there with the next two. Just persist with neutral territory until they spending more time together. It may be territory related or just dominance really. They just have to sort that out between them.
  
  Before bonding, I had read it was important that you handled your first bunny first and the new one second, like when you’re putting them into a pen for instance. I did this but found I actually needed to reverse it with my doe. (The buck was the new addition). If I put her into the area first then she observed me coming back with the newbie, she was more aggressive toward him. If he was already there and then it was me & her then coming into the area, she was better. Maybe see whether your doe perceives things that way? It’s just a small thing but it did curb some aggression during my bonding experience.
  
  What are you currently up to with them? Neutral territory or are you trying them in their living spaces? Are you in a pen with them or observing from outside of it? You mentioned her being materialistic…I’m thinking a new pen (for their permanent home) with a combo of their things in their might help. Due you think she’s like that about “her stuff” as a security thing?
- 10/14/2009 at 7:53 PM
  katiep
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  222 posts
  Well for starters, we bond in different areas, we started in a bathrub where there was some mounting. my buck did not mind until she started nipping hard and he’d move. We started letting them run around together with supervision in a small area 5 x 5 or so in our living room. They have both been out in the living room but it was as neutral as we could get in our apartment. They could go a full hour before issues would arise and we’d put them away after we ended their date on a good note like side by side sitting and getting pets. My husband noticed that there is more chasing and she is more aggressive when we are nearby almost like she has to prove to us that she is dominant and shows us. When he has sat further away (say on the couch watching instead of sitting on the floor with them) there would just be a little chasing but it would end quickly. There were two nights that was very stressful for my husband and myself and they seemed to sense it and laid together nose to nose for comfort. Pictures are included below of that night. We recently moved to a new apartment so right now everything is kinda neutral. we tried to put them together in a pen with a mixed litter box and their carpet squares together so it smelled like both of them. my doe just wanted to chase him and he just wanted to look around. we ended up separating them into two pens and have just been giving them time together outside of the pen. I will try bringing him out first and then let her out and see if that helps. Any other tips are greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!!
- 10/15/2009 at 12:13 AM
  jerseygirl
  Moderator
  22345 posts
  Maybe stress bonding like a car ride might actually help things move along if they reacted that way to that stressful vibe. Just a guess, but it really sounds close, like they’ve got to just work out these few things. It seems to happpen like that – they have this sticking point then all of a sudden they’ve sorted it. Perhaps you and your husband can remain a bit more distant and appear busy (but really supervising) during their time in the living room. The longer the periods they spend together like that, the better. My memory is sketchy now but I do remember I had similar issue with my doe and “jealousy”/aggression (whether it really is jealousy). I wonder if it’s more like they have a view of who is part of the warren/family and who is not so try chase the intruder out.
  
  So is Smokey the Wooly and Rupert the Dutch?
- 10/16/2009 at 6:53 PM
  katiep
  Participant
  222 posts
  Yeah we have tried car rides a few times, we really just need to stick to it. Smokey is the Jersey wooley and Rupert is the dutch….I had to take Smokey to the vet a little while ago because in 2 months her fur just exploded and I could not keep up with the under coat. I took her to the vet to make sure I didn’t hurt her and we got the under coat under control. I figured after being tugged at she would look to Rupert for comfort but she didn’t seem to care too much about him. She was more concerned with me picking her up and her not being on the vet table anymore. I felt so bad but I knew it was necessary. She is very much a momma’s girl which is why I try to be more distant while she’s out and only pay attention when she specifically looks for me and wants to be pet. Its hard because they get along fine, its just those pesky details they need to work out and it seems like it will never happen. By the way, jerseygirl, is your name that because you are a fan of jersey wooleys or are you from somewhere with Jersey in the name? Anyways, thanks for all your advice and I love your quote at the bottom of your posts….My name is also Kate and I am also a bunaholic…..
- 10/17/2009 at 5:48 AM
  jerseygirl
  Moderator
  22345 posts
  hehe “Hello Kate” Actually, I am also Katie!
  It’s funny, some other members had various reasons why I have “jerseygirl” screen name. It’s my 1st bunnies name, my Doe Jersey. She’s the white and tan one in my siggy. The other is my Buck Rumball. So in Australia we have a confectionary called Jersey Caramels (probably named that after Jersey cows). My doe is the same colour as these and when naming her this one stuck. When I got the boy I decided he should have an edible name too – hence Rum ball, another sweet.
  Jersey wooleys are here in Australia but not too common. Can you actually shear the coat like Angoras can? I wonder whether that would help with fur explosions?
  
  Well I don’t know if I’m helping but I’m certainly cheering them on. C’mon Smokey & Rupert!! It feels so close……
- 10/17/2009 at 1:28 PM
  Deleted User
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  22064 posts
  Posted By bunnymama on 08/11/2009 06:53 PM
  
  The bond should be somewhat easy and both buns at some point should seem like they want to be together. If they don’t want to be together, it’s not good to keep trying to push them into a bond.
  
  There are rabbits that can’t or shouldn’t be bonded, say, for reasons of high risk of injury or disturbed personalities due to abuse etc. In general, though, I can’t say I agree with not pushing a bond. I have bonded pairs of buns that without a doubt did not want to be together. It took more work and tricks and time but in the end they bonded and these bonds turned out to be some of the most dynamic ones. I have bonded pairs that were called by Cupid and personally I have found some of the harder bonds to produce a much richer social life especially in multiples.
  
  Everything sounds very good to me, actually. Smokey needs time to accept and adjust. I would give Rupert and her positive atttention together at the same time. Like petting them both on your lap or feeding craisins to them simultaneously. You might always see some jealousy with her but it doesn’t have to be a deal-breaker. Rabbits are so complicated
  
  edit: I don’t know if you are planning on a quartett at some point out of your 2 pairs, but especially when bonding small herds you end up with having to push somebunny just a little bit to make it happen. — I wonder at all what the probability is of finding 4 rabbits that all instantly love one another.
- 10/18/2009 at 7:17 PM
  katiep
  Participant
  222 posts
  I don’t think they can be sheared, but if I”m wrong, please someone let me know! We just have to tease the tangles out with a metal fine tooth comb…not one of Smokey’s favorite parts of the day! I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A BONDED QUARTET! That is our ultimate goal. I’m just not sure if that will be a reality. Smokey, the jersey wooley, does not like females. We did some volunteering by fostering rabbits while they waited for their forever home and since we only had a 2 bdrm apt (and my bedroom is MY bedroom, no bunnies allowed! There has to be some boundries, right??) we put our rabbits and fosters together so they all got the same treatment, all got fed at the right times and it was easier to have them bunked up in one bedroom. But Smokey just did not like ANY of the females we had, the males she loved! We had fostered this one already bonded pair we called Bonnie and Clyde. They were lionheads and a beautiful orange color. They were very skittish but seemed to take to the other rabbits well as well as my husband my myself. All but Bonnie and Smokey! There would be bar fights and we learned quickly they are not to be in reach of each other. However, she LOVED Clyde! They used to stretch out and lay together (with the bars between them of course). So later we foster 2 females that we named Esther and Flo. Esther had a temper and absolutely hated me. I could just walk into the room and she’s started grunting and lunging. We decided to give her back to one of the ladies in the org we were helping with as it just wasn’t a good situation for her to be so angry or scared of me. But Flo kinda stuck, she was sweet and very shy. We slowly won her affection over and decided to be her forever home. Smokey does not like this decision. Any chance they get (which isn’t much at all) they fight through the bars. It’s not that Flo does not like Smokey….Smokey despises Flo! We figured getting 2 pairs would be a great start as Smokey would get along with 2 outta the 3 bunnies and maybe they would show her that Flo isn’t all that bad. I figure we will just have to be extra patient with her and Rupert and be prepared to not have a quartet. We would just love to see 4 bunnies jumping and playing together….life would be wonderful! I will keep everyone posted on our efforts! Thanks for the tips, I look forward to hearing more!
- 11/12/2009 at 8:10 PM
  katiep
  Participant
  222 posts
  So, it’s been awhile since I posted and i’m starting to doubt Rupert and Smokey bonding together. Almost everytime we have them out there is circling and last night the fur flew a bit. We’re thinking of trying to get our already bonded duo with Rupert and just letting Smokey pick her own bunny pal. The bonded two are really easy going and we did one night together, there was a bit of circling because Benny would no groom Rupert but that was it. Does this sound crazy? Am I throwing the towel in too fast? She is very much the diva and while Rupert is sweet, he will NOT groom. No tricks like bananas on the head nothing….he just won’t! “You can’t make him and that’s that!” At least thats what his face tells me when i tried. So in that regard he is being dominant. He doesn’t mind being mounted but it’s the grooming that sets him off. He gets frustrated when nipped (he’s very sensitive about his butt!) And Smokey needs someone to kinda push around and “show who’s boss”. I was thinking about getting a younger rabbit for Smokey, someone she can “mold” into who she needs. Should I be looking for a pal for Rupert too? Does I need to find a bunny bud for him that grooms like crazy? Is this a bad idea? 6 bunnies are alot to care for even if they are in 3 pens together. Any advice is welcome…Thanks in advance!
- 11/12/2009 at 9:42 PM
  jerseygirl
  Moderator
  22345 posts
  It really a personal thing so if you feel you’re ok with a trio and a 2nd bonded pair (i.e.Smokey & mystery bunny) then go for it. If a quartett is your dream then I say try bonding Rupert to Benny & Flo and if all goes well – then test Smokey with the new trio. The dynamics may be very different then. If bringing her into it is a no go – then go on to let her chose her own pal. Like I said, it’s your personal choice – this is just my suggestion – no idea if it’s the practical way forward as I have noooo experience with more than 2.
- 11/13/2009 at 1:33 PM
  Deleted User
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  I find quartett bonding very intriguing but challenging. Some people have said the more bunnies there are to bond the easier it gets. I can’t agree with that as far as quartetts are concerned. Quartetts are still small enough that each bun has to be paired-bonded to each bun. This means a quartett consists of 6 bonds. I also found that a dispute between two buns in a quartett can draw the other buns into it, and upset good bonds. If it was me in your situation I would not quit and get more rabbits to make a separate pair. I don’t personally like the idea of separate multiples because you always have to worry, what if they escape and get in a fight with the unbonded ones? That’s just me being a worrywart, though. Keep setting up Rupert and Smokey for bonding. Supervise each encouter as tiring as it may be, as long as you prevent them from fighting you can wear them out to the point of tolerating each other. That’s all you need to do. It’s just time-consuming, but it will work.
- 11/14/2009 at 8:25 AM
  Deleted User
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  Posted By katiep on 11/12/2009 08:10 PM
  Rupert is sweet, he will NOT groom. No tricks like bananas on the head nothing….he just won’t! “You can’t make him and that’s that!” At least thats what his face tells me when i tried. So in that regard he is being dominant. He doesn’t mind being mounted but it’s the grooming that sets him off. He gets frustrated when nipped (he’s very sensitive about his butt!) And Smokey needs someone to kinda push around and “show who’s boss”.
  
  Katiep, I read back your reports and thought some more on the issues that you are seeing during your bonding, and this one described above particularly reminds me of my rabbits Lint and Deirdra. He wouldn’t groom her, bananna on head or whatever, but he also didn’t allow mounting. He still bonded to Deirdra but after 5 months now of livng with her, he still doesn’t groom, maybe a single lick or two once in a bluemoon but that’s it. He does snuggle with Deirdra, though, and she has accpted that’s just how he is. Rabbits are very quirky and not every bond/relationship has to follow a strict pattern, i.e. they must groom each other or mount each other.. I have a trio where nobunny is permitted to mount. Even though when two of them were a pair there was lots of mounting.
  
  You mentioned a younger rabbit might be a solution for Smokey as she could shape him into what she wants. I don’t believe young rabbits make easier bonds, from what I’ve read and my own experience; young rabbits are known for competitiveness and volatility which can manifest as aggression during bonding.
  
  Is there a setup/scenario which works for Smokey and Rupert, such as dinner time together, or sitting in your lap together? Stick to holding sessions of that type where they tend to get along or even ignore one another. I would imagine that Smokey is going to clue in that Rupert isn’t going to groom her. When you said it’s “the grooming that sets him off”, do you mean that her grooming him makes him mad, or her asking to be groomed?
  
  I feel that if you can get Rupert and Smokey to tolerate one another, then being integrated in a quartett in the future will make it better for them. Sometimes, a not-so-ideal bond improves as part of a multiple herd by distracting from the conflict between one of the pairs.
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