White Pasty Substance?

[MimzMum]

Okay, I just happened to be going by Mimzy’s litter box this afternoon and saw a small amount of a white, pasty substance in his pee spot. Now I am used to seeing a bit of sludge underneath the Good Mews litter at the end of the day, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen anything of concern on TOP of the litter.

It looks like the fat one would boil off chicken. What is it?

He is otherwise eating and pooping well and seems in good spirits. What would cause this and how do I get rid of it?

[bunnytowne]

sounds like sludge a bladder problem a trip to the vet is in order. ASAP

[rabbitsmba]

Could be sludge – feeding your bunny too much veggies that are high in calcium can cause this. Check out this link for a list of veggies – the ones that are high in calcium are indicated with a * and should be fed sparingly…

http://www.ontariorabbits.org/diet/dietinfo3.html

If this doesn’t seem to be the problem in this case, here is something else to read…

http://www.ontariorabbits.org/health/healthinfo4.1.html

[MimzMum]

Okay, I think I see the problem. Too many carrot tops and parsley. He’s had quite a few of those lately, since he loves them so much, so I should cut those out.
He doesn’t appear to have any gas or diarrhea. Thanking my lucky stars for that.
Thanks so much for the linkies! They were a big help!
My vet is closed for today, so I’ll have to ring her up tomorrow. Any other ideas on how to help him out until then?

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’m not really sure how much of a problem urine sludge can be…I would assume the best thing to do would be to decrease the veggies with high calcium (in fact if you seeing calcium, then maybe eliminate them for a bit) and they have lots of water.

[MimzMum]

Well I cut out the carrots and tops yesterday and just fed him red leaf lettuce for his veggie treat. He’s also been on a broccoli binge lately and it was just seeming like I was getting his poops back to normal size/consistency. BTW, he’s not shedding as much now so there’s little to no hair in his stool, which thrills the heck out of me. WHEW! ^^
He’s still got some sludge today, but this one is going through the litter and winding up on the bottom of the pan, which was what I’m used to seeing. It usually happens when he’s had too many carrots. He’s still peeing nicely and doesn’t appear to have any discomfort at toilet.
I also turned him over and made sure I inspected his ‘outdoor plumbing’. Other than that this area appears a little larger than I remember (of course, with my crummy eyesight and memory, it might be just normal) there is no apparent swelling or redness. (I still can’t get him to hold still long enough to clean those anal glands. Going to have to corral the hubby and have him hold him while I whip out the q-tips.)
He is a lousy water drinker, unfortunately, and that’s whether I use a crock or bottle. It’s also really dry here where we are, humidity is always an issue. So this was why I upped his veggie quota-to give him more fluid in his gut. He will not drink water with pineapple juice in it.
He is, however, in the xpen this afternoon and, true to his uppity form, is tearing up all the cardboard he can find in the pen. I’m used to him doing this when he’s frustrated with me. *sigh* I’m going to keep watching him and, if he presents any other symptoms, we run to the vet.

[bunnytowne]

thats good sounds like he is doing better already cool.

[Scarlet_Rose]

How is Mimzy today? I agree that it sounds like bladder sludge. Were you able to get a hold of the vet?

[babybunsmum]

is that what sludge is?  what you’re discribing is similar to what i see sometimes when baby pees on a towel or blankie.  actually it’s not every time, but sometimes there’s a white residue.   she’s been in to the vet’s a few times since last nov and been palpated and found not to have a sludge problem.  is there any other diagnostic tools other than palpating for bladder sludge or would this be conclusive?

[osprey]

My understanding is that the whitish suspension in the urine is just excess calcium.  For some reason I do not remember, bunnies cannot handle extra calcium in their system, so what ever extra is in their food goes out through the urine.  All bunnies will have white in their pee, depending upon what they eat.  Bladder Sludge is a condition where the Calcium actually thickens the urine and makes it dfficult to urinate.  The current thinking in the vet community is that diet is *not* responsible for urinary problems (sludge and stones), but they do not know what the real reasons are.  They even did experiments where they fed healthy bunnies enormous amounts of calcium, and the bunnies excreted it just fine with no urinary problems.  lots of good data here http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html

I even found a Dana Krempels article

[Sarita]

Yes, what osprey said is my understanding of this condition as well – I’ve had about 3 rabbits all of who happen to be or have been Californians who have had or have this condition. One of our rabbit vets said this condition seemed to be prevalent among the Californians – not sure why though.

[babybunsmum]

interesting info… thanks opsrey & sarita!  at baby’s last vet visit dr buhrows asked me if i was soaking baby’s veg is water when we talked about bladder sludge.  she mentioned it after saying that her bladder felt fine and i could be wrong, but i thought she meant somehow that getting the extra water on soaked greens may help prevent sludge.  now i wonder i if misinterpreted since they really don’t know what causes sludge.  ah well… baby & pinky are getting lots of fresh water & their greens well soaked regardless.

[MimzMum]

Mimz is actually doing much better today, thanks Scarlet. The white substance is hardly showing at all, and I took his parsley, carrots and carrot tops out of the diet for the last two days. So the diet theory seems to hold up after all.
I also gave him a few extra Craisins, hoping that cranberry has the same properties for the bladder in bunnies that it does in humans.
There was the remains of a huge puddle in the box this morning. I checked his bottom again today and it looks/feels fine. I also got the hubby to help me with the glands last night, as they stunk pretty bad. After getting that done, Mimz was visibly happier, so I am wondering if-as those glands fill up with gunk- do they put any pressure on the areas around it that might cause trouble when they urinate?

I have to be careful what I feed my male cats, as they can always have urinary difficulty form too much magnesium in their diet, so I can’t imagine it would be much different in other animals.

I can post a piccy of the sludge if anyone wants to see it or use it for reference.

[BinkyBunny]

Some bunnies are more sensitive to calcium too. Jack is one of them. I feed him a mixture of Oat hay as it has less calcium than most hays (though oat is higher in calorie, so I mix it), and I feed him a larger variety of greens now so that he consumes the same amount of greens but less of the ones with calcium — it also helps to wet the greens before you give them to help dilute.

What pellets are they on?

[MimzMum]

Kaytee Timothy Pellets. They both seem to love them, so I have to be VERY careful how many I measure out. Otherwise they probably wouldn’t eat anything else.
I do leave their veggies wet, but I still think they could both use more water. But you know, you can lead a horse…. ^^
I just got a bundle of the oat hay in this last order. Didn’t realize it was high in calories, so I’ll be sure not to overfeed that, but I just need to get him eating hay on a more regular basis instead of this higglety-pigglety way he does now.

The pasty deposits are lessening even more today, so I am sure the removal of the aforementioned veggies did the trick. It’s funny though, Pip must just be one of those buns who can manage the calcium, because she loves her carrots and she doesn’t even have a whiff of this nasty stuff in her litterbox. :-/

[MimzMum]

Well crud. Thought I’d gotten rid of it, but this morning he peed in his box and there’s sludge again. Not as much as last time, but still there. The only thing I did different this week was give him a stick of kale. Is that high in calcium?
Of course, my vet is closed today, but we have the ER vet if I need it. Unfortunately the hubby has the car and is not answering his cell phone. (snarl)

Still no signs of distress while voiding, eyes are clear and bright, temperament is good-considering how much bunny butt I’ve been getting lately due to the bonding process, he’s eating fine and moving well, he was all stretched out last night on his little shelf like always. I am beginning to think I’m going to have to find a way to dry dandelion in the summer and make it into little cubes or cookies for him to have in winter to keep his pipes clean. Dandelion tea and uva ursi are the best things to use in humans when it comes to UTI’s or kidney/bladder issues…and of course I have none of that onhand today. (Although I wouldn’t give uva ursi to a rabbit, might be toxic for them.)

[BinkyBunny]

Sorry so late in responding. AH…yes, kale. Kale does that to Jack every time. I also wouldn’t dry dandelion as that would make the calcium content even more concentrated.

Note about Oat – it’s not high in calories, just higher than Timothy which is VERY low in calories. You can always give less pellets and more Oat.

Also, if you are able to get a large variety of greens – try less dandelion (higher in calcium) and more in other stuff. I reved upped Jack’s diet to include dandelion (but less), parsley, romaine, dill, mint, cilantro, rosemary, and basil.    Oh, BTW -  His hay is 50% oat hay.

He hasn’t had white sludge since i started doing that a few months ago.

[MimzMum]

Thanks Binky! ^^ I’ll definitely try your formula, although I have to say, when I first got Mimzy and he was eating practically nothing BUT dandelion and fresh grass, I never saw a sludge problem with him. I am wondering if it is something he’s acquired since his neuter or if it’s just something that seems to affect the boy bunnies more than the girls? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Currently, he’s still having on and off sludge. It was pretty heavy in yesterday’s litter, not so much today, but then he only ate his orchard grass, not even touching his red leaf lettuce I put out for him last night, which he usually loves. I can’t tell if he’s just tired of me trying to change his diet lately or if it’s the spring fever that’s making him loopy.

Otherwise he’s in good spirits and doesn’t seem to be having any other problems. I am SO confused and defiinitely not doing as well as he is, despite what I see in the litter box.

[Sarita]

http://www.VeterinaryPartner.com/Content.plx

Read this article from a vet on bladder sludge and she will explain the cause of it and what can be done for it.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Hi! I just wanted to chime in and give you a reference to a list of the calcium content of raw veggies: http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html

I think it will help!

[Sarita]

I love Carrot Cafe! But please do remember you DO NOT want to eliminate calcium from a rabbit’s diet as suggested in the vet’s article. Calcium is a necessary thing for rabbits too.

[MimzMum]

Thanks Sarita, I think I read that article before, but I can always do with a brush-up. ^^
Sage, thank you so much for that list, I’m looking through it now. It’s going to be a BIG help.
HOLY COW! Broccoli stalks?? No wonder! He loves those parts and I was surprised to see the sludge after he ate that, thinking it wasn’t that bad. >.<
No more celery for awhile either, methinks.
I still don’t understand why he had no sludge with dandelion greens. Look at the calcium content! 103 mg per serving??

I think I’m going to see what Mimzy thinks of endive.

[bunnytowne]

my little girl just got  thru her bout with sludge. I fed broccoli and she had sludge right after so I stopped it next week I tried kale and same thing. I got real worried then and she went to vet and was advised to do timothy pellets and cut back on alfalfa hay since she is so sensitive she is 3 mos. i will still give her a urine sample in case but the diet is changed asap she is used to eating blue fesco that I order from bb already and timmy mixed with alfalfa pellets too. poor girl her time for attention now.

[BinkyBunny]

Great information Sarita and Scarlet!!

[Scarlet_Rose]

Thanks!

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