Whimpering while dominated? – HELP

[Carolyn]

I posted this on another forum but no one had sure answers after I posted the video, so I’m copy-pasting it here to see if anyone has any insight. (There was one person who was very helpful but no response after I posted the video)

So I’ve had a semi free-roam neutered bunny for about 3 years (Syrup). I moved into a new apartment a couple of months ago and allow him to free-roam a certain portion of it (Usually where I usually WFH.)

I’ve had him since he was a baby and got him neutered at about 1 year old when he started humping everything and I wanted to get him litter trained. He DEFINITELY lost his testicles. He’s never really been territorial but he does bow his head down for pets and I oblige, so he is probably “dominate” in personality.

I adopted a 3 year old spayed female (Toast) from a person who received the bunny from a friend that had to be in the hospital. I don’t think the newer person knew much about bunnies and kept the bunny in a small cage. I took Toast to the vet a day after I received her, and the vet gave a clean bill of health besides losing hair on the back of her neck. (Don’t know the cause, but it’s not mite-related. Possibly was picked up by the neck a lot?)

I took her home and keep her in a big dog cage, letting her out every day until she got used to being in a new place. I also didn’t let the bunnies interact at all, but switched blankets and switched their poops in the litter boxes from time-to-time. I tried bonding them a couple of days ago.

I put them in a small box (rectangular bin) next to each other, and gave treats as they ignored each other. Toast was scared but Syrup didn’t care at all. He’d smell her ears, then come back to me for a treat. He kept ignoring her until she bowed her head toward him.

So he wasn’t having any of that and mounted her. I know mounting is fine as long as he isn’t mounting her head (He would make it a point to mount her from behind). She submitted, sometimes circling back to mount him, but he’s bigger than her (She’s a netherland dwarf and he’s a mixed holland lop.) and would always win.

The thing is, she whimpers loudly when he’s winning which makes me afraid she’s in pain. I don’t think it’s screaming but it scares me and I stopped the session right away. (I added a video of the 2nd time I tried)

I don’t know if her neck hurts her, or if she’s just frustrated that she’s losing the dominance and it’s okay to let them sort it out.

She nipped once or twice but Syrup didn’t mind and just kept trying to mount. She’s tried circling back to mount him but to no avail, and then the whimpering starts again and makes me extremely nervous.

I was just wondering if this is okay? The vet didn’t say anything about her neck but it’s pretty bald and I’m just afraid if she’s in pain. I don’t want to force her into something that’s hurting her and I don’t know if this is actual screaming in fright or just frustration and it’s nothing to worry about.

I only started bonding when she started flopping in her pen, so I don’t think she’s still too-new for her surroundings, but I could be moving too fast. I just want to get her out of the cage because I feel bad (even though it’s a pretty big cage meant for a dog, and she’s teeny-tiny)

Just curious on others’ opinions.

Here’s the video. Hope I uploaded it correctly..

IMG_5458

Thank you!! (I also hope I’m not breaking any forum rules!!)

[DanaNM]

Thank you for all the detailed info! And cute names! And CUTE bunnies! How long have you had Toast, and how long have you been doing pre-bonding?

Awww that noise is heartbreaking for sure. I don’t think it’s pain necessarily though, and mounting is really normal in bonding sessions. I think I would try doing some sessions in a larger space so that she can get away from him. From the video it kind of looked like she got trapped in the corner. Then if she tries to move away from him you can stop him from chasing her. Take it slow and keep sessions short for now.

Nethies can be VERY feisty so I wouldn’t be surprised if starts sticking up for herself in some time.

Another thing that may help is to have them live side by side, and then swap which bun is on which side every day or two rather than just swapping occasional poops in litter boxes. That will help them get REALLY used to the smell of the other rabbit, and it often makes things much less exciting when they finally meet in the sessions. I usually like to do side swaps for at least a week, and many people do them for 2 weeks or more when one bun is very scared. Toast has had some big life changes and will likely settle more and more over time. That will help her full personality show in sessions and will ensure you don’t get a false dominance hierarchy.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Carolyn]

Thank you so much for your response!! And your words were so sweet and nicely worded that I reread it a couple times lol.

(I want my bunnies to be as cute as your bunnies in your icon! Lol)

I’ve had Toast about 3 weeks, and I’ve been doing pre-bonding for about half of that. (Albeit maybe not doing as much as I should)

I see! A larger space is ok? I read/watched videos and a lot of people said to do it in a small place where they can’t start chasing/have to be close to each other (some said a carrier but that seemed way too small and I don’t want a tornado to form…especially since I don’t 100% know Toast’s temperment), but I totally see your point about doing it in a bigger area, and notice what you said about her being trapped. I’ll try it again in a larger space and come back with the results!

When I took the video, I stopped Syrup after the aggressive humping and since I had my camera in my hand I kind of fumbled separating them (gloved) and she nipped/bit at syrup twice and pulled some fur out so I can see what you said about Nethies being feisty lol. I never knew that, and she seemed SO sweet and docile and calm that I was kind of surprised that she expected to be dominate. Syrup was just like “Yeah, I’ll still hump you through your bites I don’t care you don’t scare me”. Syrup isn’t scared of anything except construction trucks outside.

I’ll try having them live side-by-side too. I just don’t want them to fight through the cage bars while I’m not home to monitor. I also don’t want Syrup to keep bothering her all day and she can’t get away.

Yeah, I’m sure Toast has so many changes that keeps her uncomfortable. She loves food at head rubs, but when I touch close to her neck she freezes (even with food in her mouth) with the white-eye look (I hope you know what I mean, when they’re like SCARED) which makes me think that maybe she was picked up by her neck and that’s why it’s bald, but I’m trying to get her accustomed to petting anywhere=feels good. I could NEVER pick a bunny up by the neck (and I know many people think it’s okay the same as cats..)

Thank you SO MUCH for your informative reply. Sorry if my English comes off rude or anything too. I’m bilingual and my first language is English but I’ve been switched to Japanese for over 10 years so the way I say things may come off as rude or weird when I don’t mean it to. Lol.

But seriously, thank you so much for your input. It’s really helped! I’ll check back here and tell you the results! 😀

[GlennTheLionhead]

Just to chime im about the whimpering, it is a somewhat normal behaviour from a female that is really sick of being mounted by a male. My boy is a serial mounter during the bonding process and has successfully made all three of the girls I’ve had make this sound out of frustration. Its her way of telling the male to stop.

If I hear this sound I usually stop the male from mounting for a little until she cools down.

[DanaNM]

Great insight Glenn!

And you’re welcome Carolyn!

For side by side housing, it is important that they can’t nip through the bars. You can accomplish this by either having a double-walled barrier with 4-6 inches between the walls (since Toast is so tiny I would make the barrier zone larger in case she sticks her nose farther through), or by using a small wire mesh along that barrier wall (1/4″ hardware cloth works great for this). It’s also important that they can’t jump over! You’d be amazed at how high buns can jump when they want to “get at” a neighboring rabbit. If it’s not possible to set them up this way, you can also still do side swaps and leave the dirty litter boxes in place. I clean boxes every other day, so then I would do swaps on the days in between litter box cleaning.

About small vs large spaces…. there are many blogs etc. that recommend small spaces, but personally I have never had any luck with them for the most part (I’ve had I think 6 pairs now??). In general there are multiple ways that will work to bond rabbits and there isn’t really a hard and fast rule for the “best” way, so it’s OK to try different things to see what works best for your buns (and you!). I tend to like large spaces… because rabbits definitely can and will fight in a small space. When an animal is afraid it triggers the fight or flight response… so when they don’t have space to flee they will fight. I’ve noticed this to be true when I’ve bonded as well. When they have room to move away from each other you have more time to react to prevent a fight as well.

There is also a lot of recent discussion about whether small space bonding should be considered “flooding”, a practice that is now considered inhumane by many animal welfare groups.

That is a bit of a long explanation just to say I think a larger space is worth a shot! Many people have good luck with an area the size of an x-pen or two.

Her aversion to you touching her neck could just be that she’s still settling in. The neck, back, and bum are sensitive areas on many rabbits because they think they are going to be mounted or picked up in general. Once she is more relaxed she may not mind it as much.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

Messages