What am I going to do….

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

So My vet phoned today and she has the answer from the orthopedic surgeon she consulted on with Ruperts x-rays (re: he has an old break that was never set and healed crooked)….The surgeon is comfortable fixing his leg and has a game plan, in that he would plate the leg…

 

It’s going to cost 4000 is everything goes well….That’s in insane amount of money for me (I’m still paying student loans)….What would you guys do?

[Sarita]

Wow – can you tell us which leg this is again? Rabbit bones are very fragile – I’m not sure what plating the leg is but I know that penning the leg can cause severe pain in the rabbit and many times infection – rabbits just don’t do too terribly well with penning their legs which is why my vet doesn’t prefer to do that.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

It’s one of his back legs (His left)…I think it means to put a metal plate sort of on the bone to reinforce it….I was never aware that broken bones could be fixed in rabbits, which is why I figured he’d cope or we’d amputate….Now that there is this option I don’t know how I’d afford it…You don’t think it’s safe? I soo need to think about it and I really appreciate your (and anyone else’s) input…Thanks guys!

[Sarita]

I’m inclined to say that if he is not in pain and it is not a medical problem other than repairing it, then I would leave it. I think the risk to repair it is too great. I probably wouldn’t consider amputation unless it was a health risk as well or a mobility issue.

[Beka27]

i think if he’s happy, not in pain now and able to get around okay, i would leave it alone.  that is a lot of money for something that is not life-threatening.

[reds2212]

If he’s coped with it this long he should be OK. You are right about the plating. They will probably refracture the area and set it properly and place a plate over the area to secure it. Do they have payment plans? Maybe you could see if there are other surgeons in your area for a second opinion because it does seem awfully expensive. My vet just told me ablout a dog that had a pretty bad fractured leg (my husband is an orthopedic surgeon so vets tell him this stuff when we’re there) and it cost $1500 to fix this dog’s leg and that was with plates and pinning.

[JK]

Wow I agree with everyone else.  If Rupert is getting along fine and there is no potential problems later if you don’t fix it then leave it alone.  $4,000 is insane and it’s hard to justify if Rupert is in no health danger.  We had a big decision to make last year with our 12 year old golden who needed knee surgery.  I so didn’t want to do it but if we didn’t she would eventually not be able to walk SO of course we did it $3,000 later.  I feel for you but no way should you beat yourself up if you decide against it.  Who knows what kind of complications there could be with a fragile rabbit.

[babybunsmum]

personally, i would keep that surgery in mind only if rupert started developing mobility or health issues due to the leg.  in that case, potential health improvements would then out weight the surgery risks imho.  i think it’s worth investigating other vets for opinions and / or asking about payment plans right now, so that if / when you ever decided to go ahead you would know what you’re getting into.  especially if finances aren’t great for a $4000 expense (yikes!) then waiting to see if he’s healthy long-term with the leg will give you an opportunity to prepare for the expense.

i know vets aren’t in a great position to give un-biased opinions in these circumstances, but did you get a sense from you vet about this?

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Well my vet is good, kind hearted and knowledgable about rabbits. She was really upset when she heard the society adopted  him out without fixing his leg and that’s why she wanted to see him. The vet who would be doing the surgery is an emergency clinic vet-orthopedic surgeon. He’s checked with his staff that they are comfortable doing the anestetic and pain managment…She is very excited to correct his leg and I would not think for a minute her motivations are monetary.

However I don’t really think the surgeon who would be doing it knows enough about rabbits or has the experience to do it…My feeling is he’d do that with a dog/cat so that’s what hes doing with a bunny….So I’m not that comfortable with his opinon per se.

Initially I thought nothing could be done. He doesn’t favour his leg, and his mobility is no worse late at night or after excercise-leading me to believe that he’s not in pain. His mobility is clumsy but good. He can get up into the covered cat litter box, onto the couches and up on the raised ledge of his cat condo. I don’t think his mobility is a problem at all, except for not being graceful!  He can even binky and does binky alot. His mobility has been increasing since he’s lost a bit of weight (he is a little overweight, from an all pellet diet and lack of excercise where he was)…

To be honest I don’t think he needs the surgery and I’m worried about the risks. But the option to give him his leg back is also tempting….
I tried to find Dr. Harvey (the legendary rabbit vet) email online today to no avail. I was hoping I could drop her a quick line and see what she thought about the risks of having it rebroken and plated….Anyone know her email address? Or maybe I should phone and ask her? I don’t want to bother her, but I just trust her without ever having met her!!

 

Ok, quick pic of Rupert…

 

[script removed]

 

[IMG]http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc181/kokaneeandkuhluha/Img_0398.jpg[/IMG]

[babybunsmum]

well thats good then!  it seems there’s no hurry to come to a decision so you can ask around for opinions and get a better feel for what you’re comfortable with and what you think is best for him.  gees… he’s so lucky you found him & gave him a forever home!

[KatnipCrzy]

I can tell that you are an awesome pet owner and you would do anything for your pets!  I am the same way- but sometimes you have to balance do anything POSSIBLE with doing what is reasonable.  You can spend $4000 to get Rupert’s leg fixed- but then what if one of your other bunnies needs dental surgery for something and then you can not afford it??  Unfortunately you have to look at the “big picture”.

If this is an old break- they will need to rebreak the bone to try to set it properly.  I am assuming with plating you will have some external pins. screw, etc to deal with maybe- not to mention probably some bandaging/splinting also.  Compare how he is now- to how he will be after surgery and what the expected outcome of surgery is.  Find out what the aftercare involved is?  bandage changes, splint changes, addtional surgery at end of healing time to remove metal pins/plates???  Additional charges for these things or all included in $4000????

What I would consider as an alternative- is to make sure Rupert stays at a healthy weight- does not get overweight- as that will stress his joints.  Start Rupert on a glucosamine chondroitin supplement.  This is an “over the counter” type product.  I am a big believer in Cosequin/Cosamin brand glucosamine chondroitin supplement.  But what it does- it increases joint fluid, which helps to cushion the joints and keep them healthy.  Even though Ruperts old break is most likely not related to the joint- just him hopping unusually will put stress on his joints that were not intended to be used that way.  So his hip/knees or shoulder/elbow is compensating for his leg that is “different”.  Cosequin has no known side effects other than a possible allergy to flavoring in the dog/cat flavored version.  I think you could get Rupert on daily Cosequin/Cosamin for minimal expense per month and you could get him to take it either by sprinklng unflavored on his veggies or adding to pineapple juice and dosing with syringe.

NSAIDS- like Metacam are used in bunnies as well as dogs and cats- but these do have possible side effects, such as affecting the liver, etc.  And if possible it is generally not advisable to have a bunny on long term (daily) Metacam.

I would talk to your vet about these options- explain that  you are concerned about cost and are wondering about other options to give Rupert a better quality of life than doing nothing at all or really expensive surgery.

Is Rupert in alot of pain now?  Does the vet think he is in pain now?  How old is Rupert?

Anyway- if you do decide to do Cosequin therapy- there are some good reasons to go with that brand name/manufacturer.  Gluc/chon products are not prescription.  They are considered to be a neutraceutical- and like vitamins and herbal products they are NOT regulated by the FDA.  In fact they are not regulated at all really.  So you don’t really know how much of ingred xxx is in the product. But Cosequin has had independent studies done and outside labs have confirmed that they are what they say they are.  Most orthopedic vet surgeons can tell when they operate on a dogs knee if the dog has been on Cosequin or not by the amount of protective joint fluid.  They have not noticed a difference with other brands.  So most orthopedic surgeons recommend Cosequin or the human equivalent Cosamin.  The human stuff if the same as the unflavored dog stuff and can actually be cheaper.   If you don’t live in the US- the whole FDA (Federal Drug Administation) thing does not apply to you- but I am pretty sure you will still be able to get this product.  And most dogs that have ortho surgeries are recommended to stay on this for life anyway- due to the damage that has already been done to joints.

If you have any questions for me- please ask.  I know sources to get Cosequin/Cosamin at a decent price thru legit sellers.  (I had a Golden Retriever on it a couple of years ago- and I researched to find best price).  It can be pricey to have a dog on it- but a bunny should be extremely cost effective- although you might have to pay $$ for a bottle- but it should last months as opposed to maybe weeks with a dog.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

bbm thanks!! I’m blushing

katnipcrazy!! Thanks!! I was wondering about putting him on a glucosamine product, and my vet was liking that idea too. She wanted us to try to come up with a brand that’s been used on Rabbits before, as probably no brand would ‘advertise’ as being OK for rabbits. I’ll have to look at getting some of that brand…I’d love for you to recommend the seller to me!!

The vet at the society (iff-y really IMO) and my vet (better) don’t think he’s in any pain at all. My vet thinks based on his teeth etc that he’s probably only one or two years old (but admitted it’s hard to tell). The society said he was most definitely under four. My gut feeling is he’s just over a year.

As for his weight, it’s coming down nice and slowly and I am not restricting anything…He is just a super hay eater (actually prefers timothy to anything else) and is getting out daily (sometimes twice) for some running around. At the society he was just fed pellets and not out to run, so understandably he was a little heavy. My vet said she’s not concerned about his weight at all, although he could lose a little bit more. I think he was 3.6 kg. It was three point something (darn my terrible memory!!)

[MarkBun]

First off, I think that Rupert looks like he’s doing just fine. I mean, after seeing the ‘bunny turtles’ that the other person is taking care of, if he can get around and look at things like that, I think he’s doin’ just fine.

As for Dr. Harvey’s email addy, she can be reached at: charveyCVC@aol.com – she is usually good about responding back quickly but do realize that she is often swamped with stuff – but she loves it as she loves what she does.  My guess would be that she’ll say if he has a good quality of life and is not in pain nor a risk of complications, there’s no need to do the surgery.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Thank you Thank you Markus!!!

And Everyone thanks for the opinions and input…I really feel like this is a decision I can’t make on my own!!

[JK]

OMG Markus you just crack me up so much! Bunny Turtles! I’m sorry Leaf but I just got such a laugh out of that vision. Please don’t be mad because what you are doing for those guys is beyond angel designation! – your precious little buns are such troopers. Anyway my golden is on that very supplement Katnipcrzy has recommended and I think she’s absolutely right on! I have seen such improvement with my dog for her joint problems and it has worked wonders after her knee surgery. That’s a great idea – at least ask your vet about that.

[JK]

You know you may want to ask Dana Krempels about this too.  She would definitely know of a joint supplement for rabbits.  She’s very quick to respond. http://www.allexperts.com

 

 

 

 

[KatnipCrzy]

I am working on getting a dosage- the info I found so far appears that it must be referring to using Cosequin for Horses- as it mentions giving powder by the teaspoon.  I am going to keep looking for anymore specific rabbit info- I have a call into our rep to see what he can tell me.  I think that it could be cheaper to buy dog or human and divide capsules- than to buy horse even though it would last a long, long time.

You are in Canada- so from what I can tell online you can get it in Canada.  It probably won’t bve until tomorrow or Monday that I have more info for you.  I want to see if I can get sepcific rabbit info- or if this is off label use.  I would not be surprised if they have not labeled or studied for rabbits as there is probably not enough market share to justify cost.  And once I can confirm more of a dosage- see how that would convert to using Cosamin DS for Humans or Cosequin DS.  It looks like dosing might be similiar to cats- but the capsules made specifically for cats are tuna flavored.  So we would just need to figure out how rabbit dose relates to either Cosequin Regular Strength capsules or Cosequin DS capsules or human Cosamin capsules.

With you being in Canada- I don’t have a source that would be cheaper.  But I think the best bet will be to find Cosamin DS for humans as opposed to the pet version.  The vet clinic I work for can’t even get dog Cosequin for what our local grocery chain sells human Cosamin for!  (It is the same thing!  the capsules are different color and the packaging is different but according to rep it is the same thing!)

http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/human/cosamin/index.asp

 

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Bone_diseases/Osteo/arthritis.htm

[MooBunnay]

I definitely agree with what other people have been mentioning. If Rupert is doing OK, and seems healthy, and you can already improve his life quite a bit in painless ways with a good diet, and good company, and a happy home, I don’t see any reason to put him through a surgery that would be really painful and intrusive for him. If it was medically necessary, I’d definitely think its a good idea, but at this point, isn’t it kind of like giving a bunny a nose job? In the simplest terms, he really seems happy right now, so why put him through a painful surgery? I don’t think he’ll understand why its happening to him, especially if he doesn’t feel in pain or anything like that. I think its not only just OK for you not to do the surgery, but I find it even MORE compassionate for you to not put him through all that pain.

[Beka27]

“isn’t it kind of like giving a bunny a nose job?”

*spits coffee on computer*

lolol!!!  that is the funniest thing i’ve heard all day!

“yes… i’d like to get my rabbit spayed, and while she’s under… she needs some lipo on her hips…”

[MarkBun]

Dr. Harvey did some lipo on Georgie when she was spayed. A quarter pound of fat came with it. She was finally ready for the runway.

[KatnipCrzy]

How much does Rupert weigh?  I am assuming he weighs about as much as an average cat.  If he is less than 10 pounds- you can use the following dosage guide-  (or 4.5kg)

Using Cosequin is techinically an off label use- although they have done some study and suggest dosing as you would a cat- BUT you do not want to use the Cosequin Capsules for cats as they are chicken and tuna flavored.  So you need to Use Cosequin Capsules for Small Dogs, Cosequin DS Caspules or Cosamin DS (for humans)

Starting dose is 125mg once a day for 4-6 weeks and then dosage may be reduced to 125mg every other day.

Cosequin for small dogs is 250mg- so 1/2 capsules is dosage

Cosequin DS capsules are 500mg- so dose would be 1/4 capsule

Cosamin DS for humans is also 500mg- so dose would also be 1/4 capsule.

One other thing I am not sure about and it might be a good idea to ask your vet- is adminstering the Cosequin.  It might be best to sprinkle on his veggies, mix with water and give with syringe.  You can mix with juice and give with syringe but this is going to be a long term, life long med and I am not familiar with the effects of giving juice daily.  How the sugar can affect their teeth, etc?  Or you could always start with juice and then gradually work down to a solution that is more water than juice until the juice is not given.  I do not think that Cosequin is bitter- so I think that you will be able to come up with a healthy way to give it to him and even have him look forward to his daily “treat”.  (Your other bunnies will probably be jealous!)

Check into pharmacies and see what you can get the Cosamin DS for cost wise and then also check around to see what your cost options are for pet Cosequin small dog/RS (regular strength) and for the Cosequin DS.    Dasuquin and Cosequin with MSM are also products made by this company- but I would recommend sticking with the straight Cosequin for Rupert.  I have not found any references to MSM and ASU/Dasuquin being used in bunnies.

Typically getting double strength capsules are more cost effective than buying regular strength- even though you will have to open them to get the powder.  But it look as though you will have to divide the capsules anyway.  Buying the powder for horses may be an option- but you will have a large upfront cost to buy a tub of the powder- and I am not sure on the dosing.

I really think that Cosequin is a great product and is a proven product and I would not hesitate to start my bunny on it if needed.  I would use this brand as opposed to others- it can be more expensive- but it is also more proven that what you are paying for is what is in the bottle.

 

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