very large urinary stone

[Deleted User]

In my town is a rabbit that had been suffering severely from urine scalding. She was an unspayed 4-year old small breed. Her owner took her into the vet’s where they prescribed antibiotics to clear up any UTI as well as ointment for the scalded skin. The scalded skin healed but the owner reported that her rabbit continued to be wet around her bottom.

Fortunately, the rabbit’s owner went back to the vet and persisted that more tests would be run. An xray revealed a bladder stone. The surgery was performed yesterday and here is a photo of what they took out of the bunny.

She was also spayed while under anaesthesia.

This news made my day!

[Sarita]

Wow, look at that! I’m glad she is better now. Sometimes it takes persistence from the owner to run tests and stuff. Some vets I think are afraid to recommend them because of the cost…not that this was the case for this rabbit which was a good thing for this rabbit.

[Elrohwen]

Oh my goodness! That must have stretched her little blatter to many times its normal size. Poor bun.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

OHHHHH EMMM GEEE!!!!

That’d be huge for people!! Glad to hear the bun was spayed at the same time-that’s fantastic!!

[LizzieKnittyBun]

I think I speak for everyone when I say ZOMG THAT’S FREAKIN HUGE

[mrmac]

That is huge! I bet that bunny is feeling MUCH better now…

[Deleted User]

Yes, thanks Lizzie, that is the common consensus… !!
Sarita, I agree with you. This vet is not an exotics specialist and certainly wouldn’t suggest expensive treatments unless hard pressed to do so. But he did a good job! This is a milestone in my community where pet/indoor rabbits are a peculariar thing.

There are two happy rabbits actually: the one that’s now relieved of the stone and her bonded buddy!

edit: the rabbit has now been switched from alfalfa feed to timothy.

[FluffyBunny]

That’s HUGE! I can’t imagine how the bunny must have felt with that.

[Deleted User]

It just shows how a superficial problem, such as urine burn, is a secondary symptom of a major underlying problem.

BB, if you’re reading here, what was the hydration regimen for Jack after his surgery? I want to pass on some tips to the owner to make sure this rabbit’s system gets properly flushed from now on in case her vet didn’t advise.

[Sarita]

Did they do an analysis of the stone?

[Deleted User]

Have to ask!

[Sarita]

If they did, I’d be interested to know what they found.

[jerseygirl]

Crikey!   Poor little girl. And only 4 yr old too.  See, this is where my thinking is wrong. I’m somehow under impression youngish rabbits don’t get stones but from what I’ve read, the causes can be varied and not necessarily age related.   This page shows some other stones and this girl buns stone is certainly up there with them!  http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen_disea…hiasis.pdf  (Warning for the squeamish: this link does show some surgery images .)

Not sure if it was that page or not, but I had read that by doing the analysis & taking sample from the core, it’s possible to identify bacteria that may have contributed.  So then UTI etc can be treated specifically to target that bacteria.  

[BinkyBunny]

That is big! I should have asked to look at Jack’s stone as his looked so big in the xrays, I thought, how in the world did he ever have room for his bladder. And amazingly he never showed any urination problems or urine scald. The vet actually at first discovered it when we saw alot of blood (from the stone scraping up against the wall bladder wall when Jack was in “humpfest” mode.), and then the vet “felt”  a stone via a physical examination and then xrays confirmed it.

I have actually created a page about Jack’s new diet (it’s a link in the Diet Page)

https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/Diet/JacksDiet/tabid/186/Default.aspx

It is important to find out what kind of stone it is as that can help with treatment. Jack’s stone type was calcium oxalate . If the extra hydration didn’t work (and/or if he refused to drink more water with the juice/water trick), then there is a medicine that would have been prescribed – but it only works with a calcium oxalates. I’m trying to find the name for it right now. I’ll be back with it.

EDIT: Okay, so here is the name of the medicine that my vet told me about that  is supposed to help prevent calcium oxalate stones from returning:

                                                                                                         Potassium Citrate (brand: Polycitrak)

[katie, max & penny]

oh my! poor baby!
mrmac, i like your new siggy
jersey: please say crikey again! i hear it with a wonderful australian accent

[jerseygirl]

hehe! Crikey Mate!

BB, i was going to jump in with a med name but wasn’t sure same thing you were thinking of. Anyway, think it was and it’s also mentioned in the medirabbit article above. Polycitra – supposedly to reduce chance of kidney stones. Would this be true for bladder stones also?

[BinkyBunny]

Jersey – Yes, it would also be true for “oxalate” stones in the bladder. Jack’s was in his bladder and that was the med my vet said she would recommend if any of his tests showed that the hydration method wasn’t working.

[bunnytowne]

My goodness what a large stone.    Woweeee  Poor bunny    She must feel so much better now

[MooBunnay]

wooooaaaahh that is HUGE! Ya for persistent bunny moms!

[RabbitPam]

I can’t believe how HUGE that is!
I once passed a calcium oxolate kidney stone and it was the most painful experience ever. It was the size of a grapenut.

[Deleted User]

Thank you guys a lot, BB, thank you and Jersey, too. I am going to get in touch with the owner to see what the vet exactly did. I know about the spay and the change in diet (from alfalfa to timmy) but I wonder if the stone was sent for analysis seeing as how she got to take the stone home.

[Deleted User]

The owner emailed me saying the rabbit continues to be incontinent, 12 days after the surgery. She is no longer on the Baytril which I think she needs more of. My thought is that the urinary tract of this rabbit is very much irritated and damaged and imflamed and needing more antibiotics. Also, her muscles must be completely stretched out from the stone. So it’s back to the vet’s for this bunny. Has anyone any experience with incontinence in their rabbit after stone removal surgery? How long can it take to heal, or does it sometimes never completely heal up?

[Sarita]

According to my vet on bladder sludge which also stretches the muscles this never really completely recovers which I imagine may be the same for the stone. I would want a urinalysis done as well to see what that says as far as infection and what medications the infection are sensitive to. I cannot speak for stone removal only sludge but lately it seems that Twizzler has not had the incontinence that she had before – at least she doesn’t have the urine scald lately.

Some things too your friend may want to ask about if the rabbit is not a big drinker is to have the vet show her how to do sub-q fluids and also how to express the bladder as well.

Also if she is having urine scald see if the vet can shave the area around that area and also see if the vet has a cream to rub on the skin as well – my vet gave me Silvadene.

I imagine that it is going to take some time as well for the bunny to get back to normal. I know with sludge it’s pretty much a chronic problem.

[Sarita]

Also what I’ve had to do with my rabbits who have litter box problems for various reasons is to put small carpets down that I can clean on a very regular basis. I also just ordered some fleece from Palace Pets which can be washed as well. I usually clean the carpets twice a week for my problem rabbits.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Sarita. I forgot to mention the vet did give a cream to protect from urine scalding. I’m going to try and get a very rabbit-savvy vet’s second opnion, too (from the city). She has agreed to look at this rabbit’s medical file. This bunny has not been trained for litterbox use, so there is litter all over her enclosure. We’re looking into that too.

[Sarita]

Let me know what that vet says as well…I’d be interested to know. I imagine that right now you will have a hard time litter box training her in the condition she is in so getting her in better condition is going to be one of the keys I think. She probably just dribbles everywhere – poor rabbit…I know that cannot be comfortable. I have to wonder if she might benefit from some pain medications as well while she is healing.

[Deleted User]

I have read the pertaining aricles in the HRS journals but haven’t found anything about regaining muscle tone; it mentions vitamin C (as from cranberries) as a healing factor in cystitis (inflamation of the urinary tract), so I will pass on that info, too. Thank you Sarita. I will keep you posted as I get news.

[Sarita]

I have to be honest – do you think it would even be possible for them to regain muscle tone in this area? I think you would have to start with something mechanical like exercising that area and I know we cannot teach rabbits that. I know that sometimes with humans they lift the bladder up with surgery to help with incontinence but I’ve never heard of any vets doing this with rabbits. I know that there are some medications for humans to help with incontinence (see the commercials on TV :~) but I don’t know how those work and I don’t think they’ve ever been tried (that I know of) with rabbits.

[Deleted User]

I have phoned many vets this morning to get exactly this general question answered but none would say without seeing the patient. I am worried that the owner is not prepared for this.

[Sarita]

That is pretty typical for vets – it’s a malpractice issue with them. I understand too where they are coming from as far as this too since they want to examine the rabbit and the rabbits records as well.

If she’s prepared to bring the rabbit back to the vet that did the surgery would she be prepared to bring the rabbit to the rabbit savvy vet you know?

[Deleted User]

I don’t know. This is a child’s pet. The rabbit vet is a 3-hour drive.

[Sarita]

oh goodness – it sure sounds like you have your work cut out for you helping this rabbit! Is she prepared to take the rabbit back to the vet who did the surgery?

[Deleted User]

Yes, she will take the bunny in again to see the vet.
I am learning lots from this. Just this morning I added a second litterbox into my trio’s condo after reading in the HRS journals that litterbox issues (not clean enough, occupied by other bunny etc.) are also one of the many reasons a rabbit might not urinate frequently enough and this can contribute to calculi formation. Exercise too is mentioned in this context as such an important factor in rabbit health. A lack thereof decreases urination like it does in dogs or other animals.
I just hope this rabbit recovers…

[Sarita]

Unfortunately there is just not a whole lot known about these diseases in rabbits. I read and hear so many different things concerning calcium and calcium metabolism in rabbits. I’ve never had any rabbits with bladder stones but plenty with sludge and I always wondered why some got sludge and some didn’t considering that they have the same environment and diet which leads me to believe it’s the rabbit and not always the diet and environment. Although I did see a pattern in the rabbits that did get bladder infections and sludge – they have all been large(r) rabbits.

[Deleted User]

This rabbit here is a tiny bunny.
My Deirdra is a large bun. How do you know they have sludge, by their urine alone or you need to confirm with xray?

[Sarita]

Well, there are various ways to tell just based on what you can see at home – incontience and urine scald are 2 big ones. But you do have to get an x-ray to confirm. When I express Twizzler’s bladder to help her release the sludge – the sludge is very thick and it definitely is hard for liquid to pass through this (I have a little colander type thing in the rabbit’s room sink and the sludge will not pass through this and water will not drain either). It also smells very awful. You have to get the rabbit to stand up so that the bladder can be expressed for sludge otherwise when they are on all fours they cannot pass the sludge really – standing them up (and rocking/swaying their bottom) will help get the sludge down to the uretha to be released. Also I notice that Twizzler always postures when she stands rather than standing comfortably like my other rabbits. I do have to say that lately we have not had any urine scald and I am not able to express her bladder so I’m hoping the sludge is somewhat under control.

[jerseygirl]

This case discusses some issues post stone removal (namely hernia and nerve damage) : en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2009/2/SEVERE-URINE-SCALD.htm

I had thought also….would it be possible the stone itself has caused some nerve damage that is affecting the muscles? Also, possible bladder infection post surgery or even chronic ones that can be the cause of the stone in the first place. There might be some really resistant bacteria. Do you know yet whether they’ll get the stone analysed? Meanwhile, I agree Petzy, she’d probably do better to remain on the baytril longer.

[Deleted User]

oh, Jersey, thanks! I forwarded this info to the owner. She switched to starch right away. The rabbit is leaking urine less. She’s going back to the vet for more baytril and is planning on seeing exotics vet if nothing else works.

[Sarita]

What is the starch for? Did I miss something?

[Deleted User]

The link Jersey posted mentions that starch is a better means of skin protection than vaseline for urine scald.

[Sarita]

Ahhh…I was thinking starch as in food I guess which is why it did not compute and you mentioned she was leaking less.

[Deleted User]

Update. Three weeks after the stone removal surgery, the little rabbit is now dry, no longer incontinent. I wonder if she will say that way?
 

[Sarita]

Oh that is good news! I hope she does.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

That’s GREAT news!!! That was one heck of a stone they removed !

[Author]

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