Two Little Girls – Dexter & Riley

[jstukey]

Good morning,

I have been reading through a ton of posts here and I love hearing all the stories of bonding attempts. What I am missing are the resolutions! Has anybody out there who has had a horrible start of bonding (specifically of two females perhaps) that ultimately ended up with a strong loving bond? I have been working on two extremely sweet and wonderful buns for almost a year now on and off and feel hopeless in my effort.

Yes, they are both spayed and have shown absolutely no aggression to either me or my husband. They are wonderful, smart and full of kisses to both of us. They have free run of the house and are littler box trained however we obviously need to keep them seperate so we swap them every other night – 1 gets the whole house, the other gets one room with the door closed. This system is wearing on us and is not what we had imagined when we took on both of them who were totally bonded when we first brought them home.

I have a ton of pics of them snuggling together until one fight broke out (after they were spayed at about 7 months or so) and they have never recovered emotionally.

Over the last many months I have had many bonding dates. Everything from stressful car rides, sitting in a box on top of the washing machine etc… The do relatively well together, one will groom the other, but ultimately they will fight after a long session. I break them up imediately and neither has ever been injured – except for me (now I use gloves!).

It appears to be very territorial. Like I mentioned, we switch them every other day and as soon as they get to their new location (either run of house or the closed room) they ‘chin’ everything like crazy. When I have them on dates, even good ones, if there are two cardboard boxes on the ground and one is taking refuge in one of them, the other will squeeze in trying to become queen of the castle! This happens over and over again – sometimes it is innocent and they just end up squished together, but sometimes they will nip and fight quickly.

I am always tempted to let them have little fights with each other to work it out BUT because I know how severely I was bit when trying to break them up that one time many many months ago I am too scared to let them hurt each other.

Anyway, with all this babbling I believe I am trying to ask this one question: Is there hope here?

Do you think I shouuld keep going? Are their other tactics you can recomend? Are there any foods or vitamins that might help calm them before dates? Anything anybody has to offer would be so appreciated and might give me the kick in the butt to try another few weeks of dates.

Also, to give you some more background, I had a beautiful little dutch rabbit for 8 years who was also free running who I loved more than anything. I am not new to rabbits but I am new to bonding.

Please help

-Jackie

 

Riley (white), Dexter (black) – Trying to get back to their initial friendship from a year ago…

 

[Karla]

Such cute girls you have. I’m sorry to hear that you have been struggling with this for so long. Do they both start the fight or does one initiate it more than the other?

Right now, I’m doing sessions as well with two males who fight. I have given up on stress sessions, as it doesn’t seem to work on them. Instead, I have them on my lap where I pet them and force them to snuggle up against each other. It seems to be working so far. Have you tried this?

You might want to try Bach’s Rescue Remedy for pets – it has a calming effect. I used it a few times, but have run out. Also, you could use lavender aromatherapy oil in the room where you do the sessions, which has a calming effect on animals as well.

[Beka27]

Darnit! Just lost my post again!

The short of what I was saying: I would stop with free range until after the are bonded. They have too much territory right now. Side by side pens will keep them contained and reduce their freedom enough so they no longer feel they “rule the house” and this will force them to be in close proximity to each other… I know this isn’t what you (or they!) want, but desperate times call for desperate measures. What you’re doing so far is obviously not working. This may sound even more extreme to you, but is there another house where you could keep them (for the time being) for neutral bonding sessions? Or have you looked into boarding at a rescue for professional bonding?

[Elrohwen]

I think this might be a really good thread for you to read: https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aff/11/aft/108368/afv/topic/Default.aspx
It’s about two sisters who were spayed and then didn’t get along. They’re happily bonded now though!

When you’re looking through threads, look for the ones with BONDED in the title – those are the ones that have been resolved into a full bond.

[jstukey]

Thank you guys so much for the feedback and encouragement. I don’t have time to reply right this moment, but I do have some specific questions that I will hopefully be able to put together by the end of the day.

Thanks to this forum I am feeling ready to give it another go!

-Jackie

[jstukey]

Hey guys,

 

Beka – I am intrigued by the idea of putting them in close proximity in ‘pens’ as you called it. Do you mean in cages specifically? I don’t own any cages and would love to do that for a couple of weeks but I worry about the price. Do you know if any shelters would ever rent them out or some other solution to this?

 

Because of this forum I have officially started trying to bond them again tonight. I will document it all here (even if nobody is reading!) just to keep me motivated. Any advice, comments, encouragement will be greatly appreciated throughout the process!

 

Bonding Session # 1:

To get things started again we decided to put them in a small cardboard box with a towel on the bottom and drive around with them in the car for about 20 minutes (my husband, me and the 2 girl buns). They snuggled together the whole time as they always do in the car. I don’t even get worried that they will nip each other as it they never have done anything but hide in each other when they are nervous.

 

Then, we brought them into the ‘neutral’ space, the tile floor kitchen, gated in on a towel. They were both still scared from the car ride and did little more than stay pretty still with some occasional looking around. My husband pet both of them while they were lying next to each other for about 10 minutes and then we just watched them. They did not do much. Because this was the first time in a while and it was going well we called it a day about 15 minutes later to end on a good note.

 

So far so good BUT we have been here many times before and I would expect as much. Tomorrow is another day and I will keep you posted.

 

Thanks for being an ear!

 

 

-Jackie

[Deleted User]

hi Jackie,

females are highly territorial even more so than male rabbits and after all this time and failed attempts neutral space is of the utmost importance in your bonding sessions.

I would do no more sessions at all in your house at this point because they have each made it their own and have been there for so long and have fought. The only spot for sessions in your house would be your bathtub until they advance in their relationship.

Can you use your car, parked, as a bonding space to get off to a start with them? Or do you have any other spot such as a garage, a friend’s place or a shed? You could even phone an animal rescue group near you and ask if they would allow you to have some bonding sessions on their premises.

As far as enclosures are concerned, they are always in demand especially with shelters so unfortunately they cost. But a member in here has manufactured a pen using inexpensive wire fencing for an interim stage in her bonding. You could do just that, if you are willing to put up with the look for a time. You would have to make it sturdy with wooden posts and high enough so there couldn’t be any prison-breaks. ~

[jstukey]

Actually, my husband and I were just talking about alternate bonding locations and we think we have a couple friend’s places that we will experiment with. We used the kitchen now because it is easy but mostly because it is the only place in the house that the buns do not ever go in to. Neither of them like the slippery floor .

Tomorrow night I think we will use the garage. I will keep you posted. Thank you!!

-Jackie

[jerseygirl]

I’m glad you’re going to give it another go. It’d make the past years bonding efforts mean something don’t you think? I’ll be cheering you on. Going ultra neutral might be the key with these two. Also, not being to quick to provide them with items they might be possessive about. It appears this might have been a sticking point with them in the past.

[bunnymum16]

awww your white bunny looks just like my Shades.good luck with the bonding.hopefully everything will turn out fine.keep us updated

[Lintini]

They are really cute, I hope you can get them back together soon!

[jstukey]

 

Hey everybody. First let me say that your responses and support are truly the best. I feel like I have another reason to make this work now!

Bonding Session # 2:

Today I put the two of them back in their official ‘bonding box’ together and put them on the front seat of the car with the engine running. I did not feel like driving around so instead I just sat with them, a glass of wine and my book. They were nervous and huddled together the whole time.

 

Then I brought them inside on the kitchen floor again with a new blanket that neither of them have ever been near. Instead of letting them do their own thing this time I placed them together and just pet them both while they were snuggled together for about 20 minutes. They were giving me kisses but not each other. I feel like I should perhaps take it much slower this time around. I ended the session after the snuggling.

 

Question: Is there a benefit to just having the two have these positive experiences snuggling together even though I am not yet letting them act naturally together (hop around, play etc..)? I was thinking that I would do this for a week because I know they won’t fight this way just to keep them feeling positive and then start letting them be more active as a next phase. Please let me know what you guys think about this.

 

Also, we are hoping to get to a more neutral place sometime this week as recomended.

 

Thanks guys!

-Jackie

[jerseygirl]

so instead I just sat with them, a glass of wine and my book

Wish I was so wise when I did bonding. I’ll know better for next time. ;o)

Is there a benefit to just having the two have these positive experiences snuggling together even though I am not yet letting them act naturally together (hop around, play etc

I like to think so. Though one can’t say for sure if it aids their bond or not, you’re not moving backwards to there’s nothing to lose. It probably would aid the bond between you and them. So if it helps the bonder become more calm and prepared for the next step, I think that is important.

[jstukey]

After being a bunny owner now for over 10 years I finally bought my first ever cage for the sake of bonding experimentation.

Question:
I had planned to buy 2 and have them hang side by side in the cages for a couple days on and off BUT I really can’t afford to get two cages. My question is, is there anything I can do with the 1? For example, I was thinking that I can put them in a neutral and maybe a little scary space and put one of them in the cage with a litter box and one in the room outside the cage with her own litterbox and let them hang there for a couple of hours every day. I am concerned though that this might trigger jealousy and even more territory issue? What if I were to switch who is in the cage and who is not each day? The goal of the cage would be to get them used to being near each other and hopefully they will even start to relax next to each other etc..

What do you guys think? 1 cage = good or bad??

Thanks in advance!
-Jackie

[Beka27]

Did you get an actual cage? I would have suggested you get an xpen and situate the panels in a way so each bunny was confined in half. (And then after, the xpen can be easily folded down and stored for future use, traveling, etc…

[jstukey]

I did get an actual cage but I can certainly return it! Tell me more about what an xpen is. From what I understand it is just a series of metal gates, correct? I would be worried that they will be able to jump over the top. They have jumped over any gates I have tried

Thoughts?

[Beka27]

I would return it. They’re not very practical. You’ll spend the same amount on an xpen and they are awesome for travel or blocking off “no-no” areas. We use the 36inch tall Midwest xpens. You could clip a sheet to the top if they can jump over 3 feet. It’s just a temporary thing during bonding. Another option is to go with the NIC grids/C&C grids and build a pen, it just takes more time (and would still probably cost the same).

This one is short, probably the 24inch tall, but you get the idea.  They can be made into a 4×4 foot square and then you’d have to make a double divider down the center, or you could probably put it somewhere so two of the walls were made from your walls.

[sgregory]

if you are looking to get them to interact more, a good way to trick them into grooming each other is to smear a little banana on the forehead of one. it worked wonders for me, and seems to get rid of a little tension between buns.

[jstukey]

I just lost a long post I was working on but to sum up:

Thank you for the xpen info!! I am on it! Question – do I need to buy a separate piece for the middle divider or will that fold in a way to create the division?

Another question: I noticed Karla has been trying a system where she holds and pets one of them while the other explores and interacts naturally. My fear with this approach is that the territory issues might be exasperated if they consider ME territory and get jealous of each other. Thoughts? Am I being crazy?

Thanks guys. YOU ALL ROCK FOR GETTING ME EXCITED ABOUT THIS!

-Jackie

[jstukey]

I was thinking of buying one of these. Anybody feel strongly about one or the other?

http://www.petsupplies.com/item/midwest-pet-exercise-pen/110310/#LongDescr

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753756

[Beka27]

I would get a model with a door. You might find it handy.
The 1st link had this at the bottom:
“See item number 110327 for Exercise Pen with a Door, this model DOES NOT include a walk through door.”

The 2nd link has a PET door, but not a walk-thru door. So bunnies can get in and out, but YOU cannot get in and out to clean or feed. So I would not recommend that model.

 

[Beka27]

http://www.petsupplies.com/item/midwest-pe…#LongDescr

Here is the link for the midwest model with walk-thru door.

For a divider, you might try a double layer of NIC grids spanning the space.  If you wanted them to have more space, and had one room to devote to bunnies, you could also try just putting the xpen open from end to end across the length of the room, making two halves.

[jstukey]

Thanks guys! I am going to get the x-pen stuff after work today and will set up a new system this weekend. Pics to come! Thank you so much for the guidance.

[Beka27]

I just thought of another good idea too, if you had access to NIC grids.  One of our forum leaders had this set-up to separate two pairs in the same small room.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I just wanted to wish you luck in your attempts!! I’m in the process of creating a bond with my two males so I’m in the same boat!

[jstukey]

Thanks guys!

I bought a 36 tall xpen yesterday and am feeling really overwhelmed by its size and the whole process and changing up our whole scene – for the buns sake and the sake of my house that I hope to sell soon. I am struggling with figuring out a simple way to divide them with a double layer of wire without needing to buy a ton of stuff, nail a bunch of holes in my walls and make this too much of a permanent thing. I want to try, lets say a month (or whatever) to keep them in super close proximity while doing aggressive bonding sessions every day – that’s the goal. But this whole x-pen thing feels overwhelming to me.

My other concern is that lets say I do fully commit to the xpen set up, I buy a ton of stuff, nail it all to my house (which I would like to put on the market soon!) and then, after all that work them living together ultimately creates more tension between them? What if they get obsessed with taunting each other through the wires? Can this system make it worse?

I feel like I need a therapist for me and my buns!!! Now that my head is in it, it is totally consuming and stressing me a bit until I have a plan.

Any thoughts? This weekend I hope to map this all out and commit to something.. whatever that may be.

-Jackie

[Beka27]

If you’re going to be moving soon, that will be a HUGE HELP in the bonding process. New territory is sometimes what it takes to get the bond going.

Along with the pen, can you buy one box of NIC grids? Stretch the xpen from end to end across the room, and on one side, put a single high row of NIC grids along the bottom. Space it out 3 inches and attach to the pen, and they will not be able to get to each other. You just need to prevent biting thru the bars. NIC grids can later be re-purposed to help with bun proofing the house.

[jstukey]

Hey guys!  Hope you all had a great weekend.

OK! I bailed on the overwhelming x-pen BUT I bought a bunch of the wire cubes and set something up that is working! Yay!! Finally over 1 hump!

 

The two pens are set up about 3 inches away from each other for now and both buns are dealing with the new set up much better than I thought considering they have never been ‘caged’ at all before.  They are not taunting each other or trying to lunge at all. They are actually sort of mimicing each other! One goes to the litter box, the other does the same. One play wih her toys, the other does the same. Pretty cool – like when they were babies and best friends!

QUESTION: I am now supposed to keep switching them from cage to cage to make sure both spots are both buns’ territories correct? Also, should I switch the litter boxes with them (so they each always have their own) or should they both use each litter box when they switch so they are both shared?

 

Bonding Session # 3:

Last night before putting the buns in their new homes we finally got back to our ‘official’ bonding sessions! I put them both in their bonding box and took a ride around the block. Then I came back to the house and sat in the car with the engine running and read for a while. They were great in the car as always – snuggling together.. nervous but not petrified. Dexter (black one) is starting to get that this is ‘just a drill’ and not worth being super scared of but Riley (white one) always has the ‘the end is near!’ look in her eyes. Either way, it is a good time for them to snuggle close!

Then I brought them back to the kitchen and put them on a towel together on the floor next to each other and did a nice long grooming of both of them while they were lying tightly next to one another. They both were really relaxed and appeared especially cool for being next to each other. After grooming for about a half hour they both got up and groomed themselves a little while ignoring each other. Then my husband and I decided to end on that good note at which point we brought them upstairs and put them in their new pens.

The end!

Tonight we do it all again! I will keep you posted.

-Jackie

[LittlePuffyTail]

Great set up for your bunnies! I’m looking to set up my boys in something similar so I may steal your condo plans!!!

[jstukey]

Thanks! I’m happy to have finally put something together although after 10 years or so having buns with no cages or containment at all I am a bit of a sad mommy locking them up

[jstukey]

Bonding Session #4:

Today was the most interesting session so far.

I took them in the car in their bonding box again, did the same usual drive and brought them back to the same spot in the kitchen.

I groomed them both while they were snuggling together as I have been. They both were being completely calm and timid as they have been for the last week.

THEN…

Riley suddenly got up and it appeared she was going to hide behind Dexter but instead she started humping her! Based on what I have read I tried to do the right thing – let Riley hump for a couple of seconds while keeping Dexter calm by petting her while it was going on and then gently removing Riley from Dexter and petting both of them. Riley did this one more time and I did the same thing again. Everything stayed very calm.

After the humping I pet them both snuggling together for another few minutes and then I seperated them and brought them back to their new pens next to each other. I stopped them at this point to end on a positive note.

I wonder if this behavior came from their new home together and some need for dominance to be established? Riley is a bit bigger than Dexter so it sort of makes sense.

Overall I think this was sort of progress perhaps!? Maybe a step towards the two of them sorting things out.

We shall see – fingers crossed!

Also, if somebody can answer my question from the previous post about switching litter boxes that would be great.

Thanks for your ears guys!

-Jackie

[jerseygirl]

That is progress.

If you are doing pen swapping, leave the litterboxes so that they use each others.

[Monkeybun]

Definitely get them used to using each others litter boxes.

[Beka27]

Posted By jstukey on 08/02/2010 01:32 PM
Thanks! I’m happy to have finally put something together although after 10 years or so having buns with no cages or containment at all I am a bit of a sad mommy locking them up

 

I know… just remember… it’s TEMPORARY and it’s serving a greater purpose!

[jstukey]

Question: Will it hurt my progress to let them out of their pens individually to run the house for a couple hours of playtime and exercise? A- I miss them! and B- They are itching to binky!

[Beka27]

There’s only one way to know for sure, try it. Every bonding is different, so it might not be detrimental in your case.

[Sarita]

Humping can sometimes be stress related or even excitement – it’s not always due to dominance.

[LittlePuffyTail]

My bunnies are doing the same thing as yours. The bigger one humps…and they are two boys. I think it could be viewed as good or bad… like Sarita says, it can be due to stress as well. If your little bunny doesn’t mind the humping it will be that much easier for you. My little guy attacks when he gets humped..can’t say I blame him!

[jstukey]

Bonding Session #5:

Another good one today! Today was the first time I did not drive them around first. Instead I groomed Riley first with my new HairBuster (thank you BinkyBunny!!) which made Riley a little nervous. Then I brought down Dexter and did the same before our bonding session in our usual spot on the kitchen floor.

Today I held Dexter who completely relaxed lying on my lap while I was petting her. Riley was so sweet and instead of hopping away or trying to pick a fight with Dexter she kept coming over to us and resting her head on me and Dex looking for snuggles! The three of us snuggled for a while and there were even a few little grooming kisses shared between the two of them. We did this for about a half an hour and then my husband and I called it a day in the interest of ending on a good note.

My two buns are now beautifully groomed and sprawled out resting in their new pens.

So far so good but at the same time we have been taking it really slowly and have not taken many risks. I might start to change things up starting next week to push things a little. What do you guys think??

Have a good night!

-Jackie

 

Dexter = Black   //    Riley = White

 

[Karla]

Posted By jstukey on 07/27/2010 05:04 PM
Another question: I noticed Karla has been trying a system where she holds and pets one of them while the other explores and interacts naturally. My fear with this approach is that the territory issues might be exasperated if they consider ME territory and get jealous of each other. Thoughts? Am I being crazy?

Thanks guys. YOU ALL ROCK FOR GETTING ME EXCITED ABOUT THIS!

-Jackie

I was just talking a look at your thread to see if I can learn any tips, I might use with mine.

Actually, I did not pet just one of them while the other explored…in that case, it must have been in the beginning, when they did just fine  For the past 2 weeks, I have had them on my lap at the same time, sqeezed together and petted them both for them to enjoy each other’s company. Like I can see you have been doing as well. One of mine is very easily stressed out, so stress sessions do not seem to work for him.

To me, the lap thing has not worked wonders, and I have moved on to using Serene-UM hoping that this might help.

Like you, I am sorry to see them caged while this is going on, so I let mine run freely during the day.

It sounds like you are well on your way!!! What are you doing differently now than you did a few months back? If I were you, I would be so excited that they finally seem to be getting along, that I would not rush things. You have been doing this for so long, so no need to push it, so you might risk ruining your success, I think.

[boogercj]

hey dude, it’s bee a while since I’ve been on here but I’ve been reading up on your story, and I have to say it sounds really familiar (I think my bonding journal is linked somwhere in this thread).

Looks like you;re doign reqally well, and if they’re snuggling and humping rather than fighting then you’re well on your way to having superbly bonded girls. Those are some super-cute bunnie syou have as well. Love the picture of them sharing a carrot!

The one thing that really pushed our two ahead was having a bonding box that we just put them in with a load of hay. I had it on my knee for about 45 mins at a time so I could stroke them and transfer scents etc. After a couple of weeks of that my girlfriend acually took a week off work and did all day sessions with them in an xpen in an entirely neutral room they’d never been in before. A couple of days later we cemented them for a couple of weeks and now they’re living together as best friends

[jstukey]

Boogercj! You are my inspiration! Thank you for chiming in on this post. It makes me feel really good about the progress so far. Some questions:

1) How big was your bonding box? Mine is just over a foot cubed. Big enough for them to both turn around and snuggle with each other, but not much more than that. Should it be bigger? I’d like to do that for a couple of sessions.

2) When you were doing all day sessions, did fights ever break out? As I mentioned in my previous post my husband and I have been taking it extremely slow. More specifically we have not really yet let them just both hop around together freely outside of the box. During our sessions I have either been holding one of them or keeping them both really mellow with dual massages with them snuggled together. Once I stop massaging them in theory they will start hopping around, getting acquainted with the kitchen and THAT is when I anticipate the fight potential. So, my question is, during those all day sessions when/if fights ever broke out, did they set you back on the bonding process? That is what I get nervous about which is why I am taking it so slowly.

3) If fights broke out, how did you handle it?

4) What is ‘cementing’?

Thank you so much!

-Jackie

[Deleted User]

boogercj is the perfect expert here as he bonded two gals as well and it took some dedication~

[boogercj]

Crumbs! I wouldn’t call myself (or my girlfriend) an expert, but I guess we did manage it, and it definitly took time and perseverance!

1) How big was your bonding box? Mine is just over a foot cubed. Big enough for them to both turn around and snuggle with each other, but not much more than that. Should it be bigger? I’d like to do that for a couple of sessions.

2) When you were doing all day sessions, did fights ever break out? As I mentioned in my previous post my husband and I have been taking it extremely slow. More specifically we have not really yet let them just both hop around together freely outside of the box. During our sessions I have either been holding one of them or keeping them both really mellow with dual massages with them snuggled together. Once I stop massaging them in theory they will start hopping around, getting acquainted with the kitchen and THAT is when I anticipate the fight potential. So, my question is, during those all day sessions when/if fights ever broke out, did they set you back on the bonding process? That is what I get nervous about which is why I am taking it so slowly.

3) If fights broke out, how did you handle it?

4) What is ‘cementing’?
 

 Our bonding box was a clear plastic storage box, I’d say about 2ft x 1.5ft x 1ft  – it was pretty much all we had to hand. Enough space for them to snuggle and move around/eat hay a little bit.

During the all day sessions there were a couple of instances of chasing/nipping but nothing more harsh than that.

I forgot to mention that before that we did about a week’s worth of 45 – 60 minute sessions in a pen, in a completely new area and this was pretty much what made us decide to go ahead and do the all day sessions. They got to the stage where rather than fighting, they were actually having a power struggle over who should groom who. This is kind of how we could tell they were ready to move onto all day sessions.

It is my belief (and it’s been covered a few times on this forum) that the SPACE in which you do the bonding can be the deciding factor. If you ever get stuck in a rut with it and things don’t seem to be progressing, use a new area and it can really push things forward. It’s all about territorality with 2 females, so take them into a new area with new smells and it seems to focus them on becoming friends. I know this isn’t always possible.

Fights – Before the later stages, our two definitely had a few scuffles and our perfected technique was always to have the bonding box on standby. If they started, we’d scoop them both up quickly and keep them separated for a minute or 2 to calm down. Then we’d stick them both in the bonding box for 5-10 minutes, where they’d behave themselves and groom each other. It’s just like an Ice-Hockey game!!!

If you like, our bonding box was like a “steady state” area, where we knew they’d always behave, so it’s good to have something like this so you can always return them to a good point if things don’t quite work out.

“Cementing” is where once you’re happy that they are now “friends” and are not fighting, but snuggling together and grooming, then you actually move them in together into a neutral area. We used the same area we used for the all day bonding sessions and stayed up all night for the first day to make sure there were no fisticuffs. You need to keep them in this area for 2 weeks for the bond to cement, which allows the bunnies enough time to forget about the other non-neutral areas of the house. We used this time to deep clean the house and get rid of all the scents left by either bunny. After the 2 weeks, you should be able to move them back to where you want their permanent home to be, prvided you’ve cleaned it thoroughly (with white vinegar).

I hope this helps! We were in exactly the same position as you, and this forum really helped but unfortunately, bunnies have a mind of their own and what works for some people may not for others, so you just have to try things and stick to the things that work.

 

[jstukey]

Thank you so so much for the detailed explanation. It really is so helpful as everything I have done so far as been via forum advice and it is all I have to work with! I think our ‘bonding box’ is the same type of thing and I will start to use it for that exact purpose. This weekend I plan to set up the xpen in the garage (where neither has EVER been) and do some long sessions there. I will keep the box on hand for any trouble.

More questions:

1) In the long bonding sessions in the pen, did you have one or two (or none!) litter boxes?

2) Have you ever used a spray bottle to diffuse fights? I have not as it feels sort of weird.. but I am open to suggestions if you felt it was good for your girls.

Thank you. I am SO thankful for your help and guidance. Really – I feel empowered by it and I have felt defeated by this whole thing for a year now. I am finally making progress and feel committed.

-Jackie

[boogercj]

Ah yes, glad you asked! During the shorter sessions (45-60 mins) we didn’t use litter trays, as we thought this would cause terrritoriality. They will always try and claim things as their own, and if they haven’t yet decided who is dominant and who is subordinate, they will fight over everything, in our experience.

It kinda sounds like your two may be on their way to sorting the power struggle out though, so you might find that if one is consistantly humping and demanding grooms, as long as the other one acquiesces, then you should be OK to try out a litter tray. Obviously, in a  day long session, you need litter trays, hay and other food, but I would steer clear of boxes and toys.

We definitely used a squirty bottle! Both bunnies got a regular soaking in the early stages, and I wouldn;t be too scared to use this technique. It works to an extent, and doesn’t harm them, as long as you don’t qsuirt it right in their eyes. Set the bottle so it is kind of a jet, but kind of dispersed as well – if that makes sense!

I’m writing this with my girlfriend’s help now, and she said they actually did have a couple of minor scuffles in the first 2 days of the daily sessions but she managed to separate them and put them in the box. I think at this stage you just have to persevere and be stern with them.

[jerseygirl]

Some other have used voice commands or a noise to help disperse aggression. Somebody used a jar of pennies and shook it anytime the rabbits started to get antsy.

Take care when introducing items into the pen with your pair because this seems to have been a trigger in the past from your reports. Territorial about hidey spots? I think the neutral space will make a big difference though.

[jerseygirl]

Some other have used voice commands or a noise to help disperse aggression. Somebody used a jar of pennies and shook it anytime the rabbits started to get antsy.

Take care when introducing items into the pen with your pair because this seems to have been a trigger in the past from your reports. Territorial about hidey boxes? Or was it lack of trust when one entered that small space?

I think the neutral space will make a big difference though.

[jstukey]

Bonding Session #6:

Woohoo! GREAT bonding session last night! I did things entirely different this time in the spirti of not letting them get used to anything.

I set up an xpen outside on my patio. Neither of the bunnies have ever spent any time outside so this was a big change for them.

First I put them both in their bonding box to nerv them up a little. Then I took the box and put it in the xpen for a few minutes before taking them out. My sister (who they love) and I sat in the xpen with them (wine in hand ofcourse!) and we took them out of the box and let them hop around freely. This is the first time since this round of bonding sessions that I have let them hop freely more than a foot or so. They both explored the whole pen nervously, ignoring each other at first.

After about 20 minutes or so they started getting more interested in each other by going to nose to nose for a few seconds before hopping away. They also did a little butt sniffing which was making me nervous but the sniffing did not escalate to any fights which was a complete first! There was one nip at one time but instead of turning into a brawl the nipped bunny just hopped away and continued on exploring the new space – this was a very new reaction for me.

The best part was that Dexter started grooming Riley while I was petting Riley! She was licking her face and her ears. Then she got in under her stomache which again made me nervous but my sister and I quickly discovered she was just gromming and Riley was totall letting it happen. This went on only for about 30 second increments but still, pretty fantastic for the first time having some space to cause trouble in.

I then decieded to end it on a good note and bring both girls up to their pens for some quiet time next to each other.

YAY! Feeling good this morning and happy to have this new outside space to continue experimenting with.

Slow and steady. Feeling cautiously confident.

Thank you all guys!

ox

Jackie

 

Riley = White // Dexter = Black  – I am the one wearing the pink gloves.

 

[jerseygirl]

Ah yes. Bonding essentials; gloves and wine. lol

Very promising session they had! Especially with grooming. I don’t know why they stick there heads under the others belly but others have reported this during bonding. Perhaps Dexter was hoping for some return grooms. Well, hope you and your sister are bonding nicely too…sitting there in the little xpen!

[jstukey]

Bonding Session #7:

Another great/interesting session this afternoon.

Today I started off again by putting them in the bonding box and then bringing them right outside to the xpen. I was on my own today and coordinating the whole thing was quite a project I must say! Anyway…

We spent about an hour out there. They were great, hoping around doing their own thing. It’s really amazing actually considering where we have been to see them this mellow together.

Dexter did a TON of grooming. She kept going over to Riley and instead of them fighting, she would imediately start licking Riley’s face like crazy. Face, ears, back everything. Most of the time Riley would lean into it, even stick her head far under Dexter just to get more but after about an hour of periodic grooming I was sensing that she might be getting agitated a little.

Another thing to note is that when they were hopping around minding there own busines, when they would suddenly catch the other one’s glance they would both quickly approach each other and both put their heads all the way down to the ground, nose to nose like they were both waiting for the other to give in and groom.

Dexter also kept going up to Riley and pushing her head against her BEGGING to be groomed but Riley still wont give up even one tiny lick. She NEVER has licked Dex unfortunately.

The other big thing to note is the humping. Riley humped Dexter 3 times during this hour session. Each time I pet Dexter through it as I was worried if I did not it would turn into a fight. I only let the humping go on for about 10 seconds before removing Riley.

QUESTION: How should I best handle humping? Will that in theory ever stop assuming they do get bonded? I worry about the humping a lot because I really can see that triggering a fight.

After bonding, I brought them inside gave treats and hugs.

The end! (for today!)

[jstukey]

Thanks Jerseygirl! By the way, I too am originally a ‘Jersey Girl’! My roots are in Livingston – northern NJ. You?

[jstukey]

Hahaha! Sorry Jerseygirl! I did not realize that was your bun’s name. Never mind!

[Catalina]

About the humping – it eventually will stop!
I don’t know how to prevent fighting caused by the humping though – because my buns only fought 3 times. But then Kiwi wanted to show Tansy he was boss and was a humping fiend.

[jerseygirl]

Haha Yes, just my buns name. More to do with cows and sweets then New Jersey. lol I’m an Aussie born and bred.

It seems Riley is the more dominant at this point. The humping may die down. They’re establishing the heirachy. It doesn’t always remain that one is bossy, one is submissive once they’re bonded. It can level out some. Though some rabbits like to assert they are top bunny always - but that depends on the individual.   That Dexter is accepting Rileys dominance is reasonably well is good. You could try prompt Riley to groom Dexter by putting someting tasty on her forehead. Bit if juice, banana, raisin goo etc

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m enjoying following this thread and learning a lot too! Isn’t it incredible the lengths we need to go to bond two bunnies? I can’t help but be jealous…at the stable where I used to keep my horse they had a male bunny and one of the boarders bought a spayed female to be his buddy. I told them you can’t just throw them in the same pen, they will fight, they could kill each other. They didn’t listen to me, however, and just threw them in together. They immediately LOVED each other, not a peck or a grunt from either and they stayed that way until the female died. Not fair!

[jstukey]

It’s so nice to know that people are following along with our story. I really hope it’s a successful one

Today I decided to give mom and buns a break! It’s a lazy Sunday but we will start up again tomorrow.

Until then…
-Jackie

[jstukey]

I used to dread bonding sessions… Now, because of this forum I wake up excited for the next one!

[jstukey]

 Bonding Session #8:

So now things are getting interesting!

Last night my husband needed to drop his car off to get some work done so I decided to take the girls for a stress ride before the bonding session. We put them in their bonding box and then set them up in the kitchen as we have been doing with a big fresh (never been bunny-fied) towel on the floor.

The good news: No fights! Actually, for those of you following along there has not been a single fight since we started this round of bonding sessions! Nada! This is awesome.

The bad(ish) news: Humping. A total wild card for us and completely new territory. Riley is now obsessed with humping Dexter! As a reminder, it has only been Riley humping Dex – so far Dex has not humped Riley. Anyway, after they were on the ground for a little while hoping around, Riley just went for it. Dexter was really calm, just lying there letting it happen. Mommy was not so calm but trying to be!
Anyway, after a few seconds of humping I kept quietly taking Riley off but she just kept going back to mounting position. Finally my husband and I decided to let her keep going – Dexter was calm and I was petting her so our thought was that she would eventually get over the need to keep humping if it was not yielding anything. Riley did eventually stop humping after about 30 seconds or so but she just stayed up on top of Dex, motionless but definitely gripped on which you can see from the below picture. (how embarrassing! )
Finally we took Riley off.
Then I put them back in the bonding box for some ‘down time’ as I have been taught. I pet them and stressed them a little and then put them back on the floor with some veggies which neither of them touched.
Instead Riley got back up to mount Dex and finally Dex had enough and ran away.
At this point I ‘called it’, put them back in the box, pet them both to calm everybody down and end with snuggles, and put them back in their pens. In retrospect perhaps I should have let them do whatever would have come next after Dex ran away but I was feeling stress in the air and did not want it to escalate as we have made such good progress.
Also to note there was grooming – Dexter (submitting I guess?) and grooming Riley – her queen!

Concerns:
Im just feeling bad about all the stress I am putting my girls through. I keep wanting to give them a break for a few days but at the same time I really want to keep it moving. They are both still being really sweet to me but Dexter is smart enough to be very cautious when I come in the room assuming I am going to scoop her up for a date. I know this is all fine but it is hard on me as I have worked so hard gaining both my girls full trust and now I am breaking it daily. A little hard on mom. Also, I worry that they are both shedding more than usual and I hope the stress is not getting to either of them too badly. Their worlds have really changed a lot over the last few weeks or so. They used to never see each other and had run of the house. Now they are living in pens, next to each other and being taken for car rides, getting humped, going outside etc..!

Questions:
I am getting nervous that I am not handling the humping correctly. I get the sense that this is a really important part of the bonding process and I would hate to think that my actions will cause any set backs. How am I doing? What should I do? Should I let Riley hump? Should I turn a spray bottle on her when I see her gearing up to go?

Thanks guys!
Jackie

 

 

[Ham Sangwich]

 heh heh, the humping picture is cute. The humping is about dominance. I would break it up if there was nipping involved or it lasts a long, long time, but otherwise I’d see how it resolves. The fact that the bunny being humped is also submitting is a good sign. 

I’m not sure if anyone mentioned this, but a possibility if nothing else works, is to call a rabbit rescue locally and see if they have any very docile neutered males and if they would take your two girls and try a bonding with the male. Sometimes a triple bond can take the stress off of just two bunnies being forced to get along. That being said, this is a LAST resort if your two girls end up fighting again as it could also destroy a good bond. 

Bah, bunnies, so cute and yet so evil to each other. 

[jstukey]

I decided to take last night off with the girls. I want to give poor Dexter a break from the humping to make sure she is not too stressed. She really has been fine with it but mom’s heart strings are being tugged and I want to make sure she is ok with it all.

We should be back on tonight.

Important Question:
Should I use the spray bottle when I see Riley gearing up to hump Dexter OR should I just let it happen for a while? My fear is that eventually Dexter will snap and attack Riley which I feel could be a real setback in the progress. I need some expert opinions here! Pretty please? Help.

Thanks!

Jackie

[jerseygirl]

No expert opinion but I do want to share some thoughts. Humping can be related to dominance but they can also do this when stressed. If that’s the case with Riley then spraying her would not help the situation much. I’m thinking if she mounts Dexter, allow her too then pull her off after a few seconds and try pet them snuggled together side by side. If she’s doing it for dominance then she’s mounted and proven her point. If it’s for stress release then you’ve intervened and hopefully given her a more calming alternative by petting them.

[jstukey]

I do get the sense that it is dominance, not just stress. Riley seems pretty fine lately in these bonding sessions, not too stressed. Plus, she always bows her head to Dexter asking to be be pet.

[Deleted User]

I would not spray a humping rabbit with the water bottle. If Dexter is fine with it, let it go on. If you find the humping gets excessive, use your hands to pick him off of her instead, and introduce a humping double, a stuffed toy with her scent on it for him to hump.

[jstukey]

Oooh! Good idea! A ‘humping double’. I’m on it.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m gonna try the humping double too!

[jstukey]

Bonding Session #9:
Last night my husband and I decided to do another session outside in the xpen which I feel is the most neutral place we have going for us right now.
There does appear to be a level of tension in the air coming from Riley (the humper) as both buns get more used to these bonding sessions. Up until recently they were both pretty nervous which helped everybody stay calm and friendly.

The tension is really only coming from Riley as she did a tiny thump and growl right at the beginning of this session. Dexter happily hopped right over to her though and groomed her while Riley’s head was bowed down. Again this session there was a lot of Riley demanding to be groomed and Dexter happily obliging.

Greg (my husband) and I feel bad for Dex though because she is always putting her head down and pushing it under Riley’s face asking to be groomed back but Riley just wont do it

Everything is pretty cool with them together, hopping around, exploring except that whenever Dexter’s back side ends up anywhere near Riley’s face, Riley quickly gets ready to hump. I did not yet buy a ‘humping double’ but plan to! Dexter is really over submitting to the humping and now is running away quickly when Riley tries. This makes me nervous because I don’t want Dex to say “I’ve had enough!” and start a fight. So far though, no problem.

Also, for those of you paying attention, you should know that in general Dexter is MUCH smarter than Riley. Dexter knows her name, she is inquisitive and appropriately cautious while Riley is much more impulsive. Both of my girls are VERY bonded to me and full of love and kisses in general.

So.. Here is where I am at and what I am thinking:
I think we have had 9 fantastic bonding sessions. Not a SINGLE fight!! Right now I feel like these short (hour or so) sessions are more of maintenance right now as we appear to be in a pretty steady situation.

After reading back through the ‘Boogercj’ bonding story I feel like we need to set up to do some marathon sessions – maybe 4 or 5 hours in a row. I think I will try to do this in the outside pen as it is nice for me to sit outside and so different for the buns.

What do you guys think?

You all rock!
-Jackie
 

[jstukey]

I’m back!!  So sorry for my lack of posts but I had gone away for a few days and fell out of our bonding session routine! They have still been staying in pens right next to each other but our sessions had stopped for a few days.

Two days ago I got back on track!

Bonding Session #10:
Let me get right to it. We set up in our neutral space in the kitchen. The girls were the same as they have been, curious, hoppy, not fighting BUT I am realizing that the evolution of Riley’s need to hump Dexter is really a problem.

Once Riley gets it in her head that she want to hump Dexter she gets crazy, possessed. It’s all she wants to do. Her heart starts pounding, her eyes get focused and she is on a mission! Dexter is tolerating it, not running away, just submitting but I know that wont be too long lived so I am very careful to work with Dexter to keep her feeling calm and safe will crazy eyes does her thing!

Anyway this is what happens. Riley mounts Dexter from behind, grips Dexter’s fur and humps like crazy. Dexter stays flat on the ground while I pet her. I count to about 30 seconds, trying to let Riley get bored. Riley will eventually stop the humping, but she wont move or let go of her grip on Dexter. This happens every time and eventually I just peel Riley off. She immediately will do everything she can to get back into position. Like I said, once she is on a tear, it is really hard to shift her focus.

One of the times I peeled her off I held her tightly and close to calm her down and did something I have never really done to any of buns – I leaned her back to hypnotize her! I’ve done it before but it’s not really my thing and I have never done it to her. Anyway, she completely spaced out on her back in my arms and I kept here like that for about 30 seconds hoping to calm her and shift her focus.

When I put her back down she groomed herself like crazy and actually sort of ignored Dexter which I saw as a huge positive!

Then, to quickly end things on a good note, I crumpled their yogurt treat back and they both raced over, got their treats and that was the end of the session.

Questions/Comments:

1) I did not have a ‘hump double’ at the time of this session but I have since bought a stuffed animal that is black and white like Dexter and about the same size. I have been grooming Dexter and spreading all of her hair all over the stuffed animal and have had the stuffed animal shadow all of Dexter’s favorite places for the last few days to pick up her scent. Riley has not yet been introduced to ‘Humpy’ (the stuffed animal) I do intend to use Humpy in our next session

2) The hypnotizing – is this safe? Does this cause extra stress to the rabbit when they wake up? It appeared to have worked well and I would like to use the technique again if needed but don’t want to do anything that would put my girl in physical or emotional jeopardy.

3) Humping – please please. Does anybody know of any humping stories that have been resolved? This seems to be the only thing that stands in the way of their friendship and I feel a bit disheartened that Riley does not ever seem to get tired of it. We can’t seem to get ‘over the hump’ so to speak Please – any guidance aside from the ‘hump double’ would be hugely appreciated.

Tonight I plan to do a 2 hour session. Any feedback before then would be great!

-Jackie

[Beka27]

The humping isn’t necessarily a bad thing. My Max humps Meadow everyday, sometimes several times a day and they’ve been bonded for well over 2 years. What’s important is how each rabbit deals with it. If Dexter is allowing it, will Riley eventually stop if you don’t intervene?

[jstukey]

Hmm. Dexter is allowing it but she is not happy. I worry that with all the progress we have made, once Dexter snaps it could be a big fight. Plus, it is so stressful overall.

Grr. I wish it was easier.

Anybody else, thoughts?

[LittlePuffyTail]

Frustrating little buggers. I’m dealing with the same thing as you but my Stormy doesn’t tolerate the humping. He gets angry! Do you suspect Riley’s humping is dominance or stress related?

[jstukey]

Bonding Sessions 11 & 12:

Hi everyone! It has been a while since I have posted but work has been busy!

Anyway, quick update:
We have done 2 dates since my last post. Both have been full of excessive humping! Riley just will not stop on Dexter. Dexter is continuing to be a team player and only scoots away when she has had enough. There is still tension in the air however BUT there is definitely real progress here when I look at the big (slow moving) picture.

We did use a ‘hump double’ which has been a bit of a relief for Dex although Riley figures it out eventually and wants the real thing!

Here is a video of one of our sessions to get a better sense of the dynamic between the two of them – the humping, the forced snuggling and the grooming.

PLEASE let me know if anybody has any epiphanies when you watch this! Let me know what you think.

I am still waiting for a good day to do a marathon session as I feel it is very important to get us to the next level. Right now I feel like we are in a maintenance pattern, but not making the leaps of progress I would like.

Until next time!

-Jackie (Riley and Dexter)

[jerseygirl]

I’m wondering about you introducing an escape hidey box for Dex but a bit wary as this it the sort of thing that caused issues in the past. It can be a good way for Dex to let Riley know “I prefer you didn’t do this”. Yet this could have been behind the fighting or chasing out of the box you mentioned would happen before you started bonding again.

She does need some sort of diversion from the behaviour. If you can encourage the snuggles and possibly her grooming Dex then she might learn some other forms of interaction that are more appropriate and peacable. We had a discussion in one of the other forums recently about humping and dominance. It’s not always dominance that is behind it. What ever it is with Riley, I believe having the stunt double and also diverting her to other activities could be beneficial. I don’t know really… be interested in others input also.
 

[jstukey]

I’m in! I love getting little ideas because I literally try EVERYTHING that people throw my way. Next date we will have a hidey box and see how it goes.

[jerseygirl]

How are you travelling along? Any updates?

[jstukey]

Hey Jerseygirl! Thanks so much for reaching out! We are still moving along – I just have not been posting as much because each of the dates have been so similar: No fighting BUT excessive non-stop humping from Riley on Dexter. Dexter is now running away and looks like she is getting pissed but luckily, so far no fights have broken out.

I did do a 3 hour session this weekend which was good. But by the end, Dex really was showing signs that she was getting frustrated and I decided to call it before it got ugly. I am hopeful, but I really don’t know what to do about the humping.

At about the 2nd hour of the long date I added a fresh litter box to the mix and they both immediately went to the bathroom (good little girls!) BUT, the presence of the box being there definitely triggered the territory issues. The humping escalated (if that is even possible) and I could sense the change in both of them.

Anyway, we are trucking along with no intention of giving up. All good things, just really slow.

I’m always looking for more advice so anything you can think of would be so helpful. I feel like I am playing by all the rules but don’t really see how this humping thing will shake out..

Thanks lady! Let me know what you think.

-Jackie

[jerseygirl]

It’s tricky. Is it that Riley is a tough cookie to crumble or is there something else behind it all? I’m reminded a little of Binky Bunny’s Jack when she was bonding him to Vivian. Jack was always a tad ‘humpy’ but BB reported he became obsessively so during that pairing. It turned out he had a health issue that needed attention. After he’d recovered she was able to bond them. He’s still ‘humpy’ and dominant but it toned down. I know it may seem like comparing apples with oranges with Riley being a female. Just thought I’d mention it.

How has Riley been toward the stunt double? Does she ignore it if theres a chance to get to Dexter instead? You’ve mentioned both girls being very bonded to you. I’m wondering if this could be about you. How present are you in the bonding sessions? Are you always right in there with them? If so, is there a way you can discourage Riley from mounting from a distance? In a less hands on way? Or do you physically have to remove her?

Edit to add: My saying “this could be about you” I’m meaning jealousy over you.

[jerseygirl]

One more thing…lol

Have you done much work with them completely out of your home in an unfamiliar place? Petzy mentioned this earlier in your bonding thread. It might give you a real clue to observe them in a sessions out of the home to see what sort of role Territoriality is playing in this.
 

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