Attempted trio/quad now two pairs- Myra, Bun Jovi, Bonnie, and Cooper

[DanaNM]

Well, I officially started bonding my three today, so figured I would go from scheming to journaling.

The buns are: Bun Jovi (12, male, neutered), Myra (2?, female, spayed),  Bonnie (3, female, spayed). Bun Jovi and Myra are currently bonded, and have been since for I think about 6 months? They were a relatively easy bond and took about 2 weeks (including marathoning the second week).

We have been fostering Bonnie for I think about 3 or 4 months now? I haven’t done any full-on side swaps of cages, but they are housed next to each other, and alternate sharing the free-roam area. Decided not to do cage swaps because Bonnie came to us from the shelter pretty cage aggressive and I think it would be too stressful for her. Plus I didn’t want to split up BJ and Myra’s bond. Everyone has been pretty chill with each other through the fencing. Bonnie is known to get along well with other bunnies at the shelter. My sense is that the girls will be trickier (plus BJ is a senior), so I opted to work with them a bit first.

Session 1 today was surprising!

I put the girls in the bathtub together for about 10 minutes. First 30 seconds or so they explored the space, and spent time close to each other but preoccupied with the space. Then Bonnie mounted Myra! And Myra just froze. After prob 10 seconds of this I brushed Bonnie off because her nipping was getting close to Myra’s face. Then Bonnie hopped away, then came right back and mounted again. Myra still didn’t try to get away or anything. Bonnie dismounted, then mounted again! Then she came back over and started lightly nipping Myra’s cheek. I started petting them both. They sat side by side while I petted them for the next few minutes, seemed pretty calm, although Myra seemed pretty tense (I think mostly about being in the tub). Ended the date then.

It was very surprising because Bonnie is supposedly a submissive bun (according to the shelter!), and Myra has been the most flustered with Bonnie’s presence in the house! So I was shocked that Myra just let her mount her, and that Bonnie mounted so immediately.

I guess you really never know what to expect till you get them together in neutral space!

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Date 2: same as first, Bonnie + Myra, bathtub, 10 minutes.

Pretty much the same thing as date 1. Bonnie immediately humped Myra, and did on and off for about 2 minutes. Myra just froze the whole time. The Bonnie thumped a few times.

Then Bonnie kind of approached Myra from the side towards her face (ears forward), and I just petted them both on and off for the rest of the time.

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Dates 3 and 4: More or less the same, about 15 min each session. Lots of petting. Less mounting today, but some face-nipping by Bonnie which I am not a fan of. I don’t think she’s nipping hard, but I get nervous about anything around the face. Not sure why either. Myra is still just a bit frozen. Maybe that’s why Bonnie is nipping?

I suspect I’m approaching the limits of what I can do in the bathtub. Might try a car ride before the next tub session and see if they are any different.

Good news is I haven’t noticed any change between BJ and Myra (knock on wood) so far.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Date 5:

Took all three (!) on a car ride together. Popped all three buns in a large plastic tub with hay on the bottom and went on a drive for about 30 min.

They weren’t happy but did very well. Bonnie mounted Myra again right at the beginning, but then the car started moving and she just froze (while still on top of Myra, LOL). The dis-mounted after a few seconds and the rest of the drive was peaceful, with some “snuggling” in various configurations. I put this in quotes because the bin wasn’t large enough that they could really move away from each other. Bonnie didn’t seem to react to Bun Jovi at all, which was good.

BJ and Myra are still fine together at home!

Thinking tomorrow I will drive them over to my friend’s garage for some longer sessions with all three in a larger space.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Date 6 +

Took the plunge and started marathoning them about an hour and a half ago! I have set up a large area (2 xpens linked up) in my friend’s garage, lined with pee pads and a bunch of hay.

The rode over together in the car in a bin. They were NOT happy about it but got along with each other.

So far things are going OK? Some nipping and mounting attempts at first. Bonnie is being assertive by Myra and BJ are standing up for themselves. There have been some lunges by Myra at Bonnie. Some of their scuffles seemed dramatic, but then I realize they aren’t even pulling and fur, which is good. Everyone has been munching hay and some greens and is enjoying the cool concrete garage floor after the hot car ride. They alternate between resting for a while, then Bonnie makes the rounds and asks for grooms, and gets told off by the other two. So we will see how it goes!

I’m not sure if I will push through the overnight tonight. Will see how they are doing after a few hours, and when they get more active again in the evening. I don’t especially want to put them through the car ride drama again if not needed, but also don’t want to push too hard if they aren’t ready for the overnight yet.

I know from experience that BJ needs these long sessions to really settle in and assert himself. Otherwise he just sits in the corner and pouts. So hopefully this was the right move!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Ughh the girls are kind of testy and it’s giving me doubts about my strategy. Bonnie keeps doing things that are very rude IMO (like lunging at  Myra while she’s drinking so Myra choked on her water). Hmmm.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well, I made the decision to end the session after about 8 hours last night to give everyone (including me) a break and a good night’s sleep. Good news is, Bun Jovi groomed Bonnie at one point, and the girls seemed to be calming down. Also good news is Myra and Bun Jovi are still good with each other, they were cuddling and grooming throughout the bonding session. I think the very long pre-bonding time really helped their bond not to break with the introduction of Bonnie.

Bad news is this morning Myra isn’t eating. I syringe fed her and gave her simethicone and a tummy rub. Hopefully she perks up within an hour or so, otherwise it’s off to the vet. Which is unfortunate because I think all the driving is what overly stressed her. 🙁

So I’m hitting pause on everything and need to reassess. I had wanted to marathon to reduce driving, and it seems like that was probably the right move… but I will admit it is hard to start marathoning this early in the process, because they need much more hands on supervision, and working with 3 is a lot! They didn’t really seem stressed during the actual session (Myra was eating a lot and pooping, etc.), so I think the car ride home was the tipping point. I might beg someone from the rescue to work with them at her house. It is just so hard to bond when you don’t have space at home. :-/

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Myra perked up by yesterday afternoon and is back to normal thankfully (after two syringe feedings, some tummy rubs, and some pain meds).

Some of my friends at the rescue seemed to think she was prob more stressed by the long bonding session than the car rides, but I’m just not sure about that.

In scheming next steps, I see some options, what do you guys think??

I could try working with the girls in my bathroom. Cons: smaller space, less neutral. Pro: no driving needed, easier.

I could plan to do shorter sessions in the same garage or that friend’s backyard. Cons: lots of driving, kind of a pain to set up. Pro: very neutral, plenty of space. Car ride does double as a stress bonding session.

I could take them to the shelter and do dates there. Cons: involves driving (but shorter distance). The shelter might be stressful for them as well, even though it’s familiar. So maybe not too bad. Pros: no set up needed, shorter drive, very neutral.

Also not sure whether to work with the girls on their own more or keep working with all three. The three together wasn’t too bad to manage, I just would like to minimize stress on BJ. But then again he seemed to handle everything better than Myra.

What do you guys think? Any other suggestions?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

I opted to set up a pen in a completely different area of the shelter, that was more quiet, very large, and new to all three buns. We did about a 2 hour session yesterday and I think it was pretty good! Nothing groundbreaking, but it seems they are getting better at communicating. Bonnie mounted Bun Jovi a few times and he looked VERY confused. Bun Jovi acted more normal (rather than just pouting in the corner the whole time), so that was good.

Everyone seems pretty good today, so assuming they are all still normal tonight I will likely repeat the date tomorrow, and maybe try a bit longer. I think the every-other or every-two day frequency of dates will prob be best for the bun’s stress levels.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Lemski]

Sounds like a tricky bond but the approach you picked is going good!! Always go with your gut!!!

[DanaNM]

So I had an offer from a friend at the rescue (one of the lead people there) to work with them at her place. She bunny sits for me often and has bonded a lot of trios and pairs. So I took her up on it!

I dropped them off at her place yesterday and she’s going to keep them through the weekend. She worked with them this afternoon and said it went really well! So fingers crossed it continues to go well!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[HipHopBunny]

You helped me with my bonding thread, so I don’t really have any advice – just wanted to drop in and wish you luck! 😀 That sounds great! (Can I drop my buns off with her too? 😛 )

It sounds like you two are friends as well, so you’ll have her number to check up on them regularly. 🙂 You could also have her send you pictures! I have my pet sitter send me some every time while I’m away! 😆 Try not to worry, they’re in good hands. 🙂

Wishing you easy thinking!

[DanaNM]

Haha yes I would love some pictures! I’ll keep you all posted for sure!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

Catching up. What a great offer and really relieves bonding stress off your end. Good to hear they are seeing positive signs!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Well, things were going OK with the bonder until they weren’t. Got this update last night:

“Well the girls tangled late in the evening last night so we are taking a break. They were actually doing just fine and BJ came over and mounted Bonnie and Myra hopped over full speed and tangled with Bonnie. Little nip on Myra’s lip not big and Bonnie was scared. I then took Bonnie to sofa and gave her tlc until she purred. BJ then chased Myra not chased but grunted and mounted. Gave her a break by letting her out again but she just wanted to be with BJ. They are very bonded. This is just going to take a long time. They are all relaxed and happy.”

So now I’m not sure what to do. We really haven’t been at it very long, but with my own stress level currently and BJ’s age, I just don’t know if I’m up for forcing a trio. I had been thinking if this didn’t go well I would just wait till we moved to work with them again, which is still an option, but I won’t be back from Norway until Sep 2021, so really we are looking at another year before I could bond them. My husband is fine with whatever. We really like Bonnie…but I do know that with how far she has come in foster care with us that we could place her in a great home.

I haven’t talked to the bonder in person yet, so I might see what she thinks. I also haven’t seen what the nip on Myra’s lip looks like… I know Bonnie was really nippy on their faces which had made me very nervous. So bummed!

Maybe I need to go back to having very short sessions with the girls? With BJ and Myra I had better luck with longer sessions right away, but that may be too much for the girls. I just don’t know!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[HipHopBunny]

Okay, take a deep breath, and just relax for a moment. 🙂

She’s watching the stress levels of all of them, and when Bonnie was stressed out “I then took Bonnie to sofa and gave her tlc until she purred.” They’re in good hands, and she’ll end the session when it is time. 🙂 If BJ starts getting really stressed out, which I don’t think will happen, then she’ll take it easy on them. 🙂 He’ll be okay, he’s a tough bunny, head-strong, that’s why he sleeps with his face in bars. 😉 😛

My girls have bad bonding sessions occasionally too, yes on those days I really feel like quitting, but you and other BB members have boosted my spirits, and pointed out it is not the end of the world, so I’m returning the favor. 😀 I won’t really be able to give advice though, haha, you saved me several times in my bonding thread, so I’ll only really be able to give encouragement. Go with what your heart tells you! 🙂

I don’t think you need to get rid of Bonnie, you can’t deny that you are attached to her, and she has a great home with you. 🙂 They’ll move on over the rough edges, it’ll just take a few sessions. 🙂 (If it makes you feel better, Silver and OB are worse! Sometimes they’ll chase Smokey around the room! 😥 I end the session there, we start fresh the next day, and they are friends again. :-))

It will all be okay, they’ll turn out friends in the end! The longest journey starts with a single step. 🙂

Wishing you easy thinking!

[DanaNM]

Thanks for the encouragement. 🙂 I’m going to be picking them up today and will see how everyone is doing and what the bonder thinks the best strategy is. I would like to know if she saw ANY positive behaviors between the girls aside from tolerating each other.

Not going to make any decisions right away, and I might try to do some proper pre-bonding side swaps before going any further, or at least litter box swaps. It’s a bit tricky because Bonnie’s pen is much smaller than Myra and Bun Jovi’s, but they end up getting free-roam for like 14 hours a day so it’s probably not that big of a deal.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well, it definitely seems they backtracked. They were OK with sharing the carrier when I dropped them off, but had to be in separate carriers on the ride home because BJ was tussling with Bonnie. I didn’t get to talk too long to the bonder, but it seems like not much progress was made. She agreed with my assessment that Bonnie is “defensively offensive”, in that she is nervous, so she goes and instigates things. But then Myra is also the instigator sometimes.

For now I’m going to let everyone chill out, then do more serious pre-bonding. I might need to switch to doing very short sessions and being very careful to end them before they lead to any sorts of tiffs. I had to use this strategy with Bunston and Bertha. It took a very long time, but I see some similarities with Bonnie and Bunston’s behavior. But this also might have to wait until I’m in my new home. Any thoughts from other trio folks are welcome! I’ve only ever done pairs so this is new territory for me!

Good news is Myra and BJ are very solidly bonded, and no problems with them. Bonnie is such a wonderful rabbit that we really would like to keep her, and I think are OK with continuing to have a pair and a single if it just isn’t in the cards to have the trio. I might work on modifying the setup with some nose-guards so we can have less fencing around.

All three seem happy to be home.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

I’m sorry things didn’t go in a positive direction. Was still worth a try though, so don’t feel bad. With enough time, I think they can get there, Bonnie just needs to gain more confidence. 🙂

Modifying the setup so they can be closer together would help a lot I bet.

[DanaNM]

Thank you, yeah I think some more serious pre-bonding will help too. After giving Bonnie some serious cheek rubs, there is no way we are giving her up.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

Bonnie sounds like Wick with the defensive-offense.
What Wick lacked which Bonnie has is the strength to actually create a nip-impact, which I’m sure opens the opportunity to solidify the fearful aggression as more serious.

Honestly I am unsure what the progression or steps have been so far, but what are your thoughts on short or longer sessions with duets, switching? Mainly focused on BJ and Bonnie though. I don’t have bonded bun experience, so I don’t know if that’s a no-no since BJ and Myra are bonded.

It took a while, but eventually Wick learned that his defensive-offense was creating problems and now his default is to lounge in place when he gets freaked out (which is good? resignation?). I would do eating times together and then immediately separate when done. When he showed less reactivity to Fable, we moved to the bathroom set-up for the marathon, as you were following along with.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Thanks for your thoughts Wick! It’s hard to say what has worked and what hasn’t. Certain situations had less fighting (like the short bathtub sessions), but then the bunnies weren’t behaving normally. So hard to say. Longer sessions at the shelter were OK. Some scuffles, some ignoring. Nothing crazy but lots of intervention needed from me. My living situation complicates things a lot, because a spare room that I could take them to for 30 min sessions would prob be ideal.

I think you are right in that after some more pre-bonding, short duet sessions are prob the way to go. In the beginning I was really nervous about the impact on Myra and Bun Jovi’s bond, but after all the sessions we’ve done so far I’m less worried, as they have been really solid during and after the sessions. I think with them the key is going to be ending things before they have a chance to get nippy, even if that means they are mostly ignoring each other when I end things. I might end up doing more bathroom sessions if they are short, even if it’s not so neutral.

I think you are right about the reactivity thing too! With my first pair (before I had any experience), they went from fighting, to ignoring each other for weeks, and then finally Bunston groomed Bertha and they were madly in love (after 3 months of stalemate). Other pairs have had more in between steps and interactions (mounting, grooming but still not fully trusting, etc.).

I guess at the bonders house there were several hours where they were all very active and just fine together, but then BJ tried to mount Bonnie and all heck broke loose. So I do think working with the pairs might be helpful in this case.

I def need to do more serious pre-bonding. I think with how territorial the girls are that will be helpful. I was thinking it wouldn’t be necessary since they had all been so chill with each other through the fence and there hasn’t been any marking, but I was wrong! I am getting my “nose guards” in the mail today so I can modify their set-ups so they can see each other 24/7 (not just while BJ and Myra are exercising), and can give Bonnie more space, so I can swap pens more easily.

The bonder also thought that Bonnie would just have to get used to being the “third wheel”, which I hope would not be the case. We also discussed the possibility that maybe (in the distant future when I’m back from Norway), that I might end up bonding Bonnie in a pair, and then trying to do the quad with them all together. But that is so far away who knows what the situation will be by then.

Bun Jovi has been through the bonding process so many times at this point (Myra is his fourth bun-wife), I also just don’t want to stress him unnecessarily. I had basically thought to try this trio because Bonnie had a reputation as being submissive and good with other rabbits. Since it is def going to be more work than I thought (isn’t that always the way), I’m OK with just pausing for now. Myra and BJ are happy, Bonnie is happy, and we can definitely deal with the annoyance of having an extra pen in exchange for some Bonnie snuggles.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

I did a full side swap last night and they are NOT happy about it. Which makes me think it was the right move LOL.

So now we’ll see how long it takes them to chill out! Had to watch pretty closely because BJ and Myra were trying to nip Bonnie through the fence, and then turned on each other, but settled down after a bit.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Side swaps have been going well, I’ve been swapping them every 2 days. They are not trying to nip through the fencing anymore and I’ve been able to leave Bonnie out overnight without it causing squabbling between BJ and Myra. They will often lay near each other on opposite sides of the fence.

Going to do this for another week… then thinking I will resume sessions and see how it goes. I am considering trying to disguise my kitchen with a tarp and do some sessions there. It might be worth a shot at least?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

Might be worth a shot, but probably the longer you can go without shaking the boat at the moment, the better. I visualize it as solidifying a baseline OK relationship as much as possible so small tuffles don’t break it.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Yeah good point. I guess I am just wondering if short sessions might be a better bet, and if that’s the case I need to figure out where to date them at home. There’s always the bathtub I guess. 🙄

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

So, some changes might be happening on my end. As far as bonding, I’ve only been doing side-swaps for the last few weeks. But, my in-laws have been begging us to move in with them for the few months before we move to Massachusetts… and we are thinking we might take them up on that. They have a much larger space and we’ve stayed with them with bunnies and our cat before during the wildfires.

So there is a good chance we might be moving next month. Which means I will have SO much neutral space!

Also… as some of you might have seen in the lounge Oct Pics thread, there is this young bun at the shelter that I am slightly obsessed with. He looks like a baby Bertha and is just soooo sweet. After he is neutered I might try dating him with either Bonnie or the whole group, but I also might be crazy (everyone here is a terrible influence LOL). Everyone said I was crazy for bringing home Bonnie too. Ha!

Honestly we should probably move just so I don’t keep bringing home bunnies. I have no will power!

I’m thinking if we do move, I will probably try to just move them all (either the trio or quad) in the same carrier or a cage, and then keep them together and marathon after that? It is about a 4.5 hour drive. Not sure if being together will be too much added stress, but I also think that most of the stress will be from the car, so might as well try to take advantage of it?

I of course always worry about the stress-levels, but when I have had to make long drives with buns, they do seem to settle down after about 30-40 minutes, especially with free-way driving.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

Hm…. I honestly don’t know. I think you need to step back and just assess if stress-bonding has been worthwhile or not, based on what you know of the existing trio. I learned from Wick and Fable that stress bonding did not work, as Wick doesn’t stay stressed for very long and Fable stays in stress mode much too easily, so it didn’t really function as people expect.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Good point. I will say that when I did the very long marathon (I think it was 8 hours), they seemed to be improving. My current 3 seem to respond similarly to car rides, which is good.

I would for sure have an extra carrier with me, just in case problems arose in the car.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just a small update here! We have finally set our move date for Dec 5. I haven’t been doing any bonding sessions with my three, just side swaps every day or two, which have been uneventful. They have all been spending lots of time laying near each other.

Copper got neutered finally… so I am going to take Bonnie on a date with him today (I think). He is still a little hormonal (he only got neutered a week ago), but some of the ppl at the rescue think there is a magical window of hormones that makes male buns “irresistible” LOL, so going to give it a shot. If it goes well, I might try him with the whole group, or decide to just have her with him. But I have no expectations… I am actually expecting it to go poorly to be honest!

In any case, the plan is to hopefully move with the buns all in one crate, so they have the 3-4 hour drive together, and then keep them together in the new home, assuming the drive goes OK (definitely will have an extra carrier on hand if needed). Or, if it doesn’t go well, I will keep them separate and work on a slower approach in the new home with all that neutral space!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

We decided to just stick with our three for now! Our current three are just so perfectly behaved (in terms of chewing and box habits), we decided we didn’t want to take gamble with adding a new young bun to the mix. Plus I got an update this morning that I might be going to Norway after all!

So let’s hope I can get this trio bonded once we move! Then they will be able to have a whole bedroom to themselves. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

Nooo… 😥

Just kidding, you know your buns best. 🙂  How exciting about your trip, I hope it works out!

Let us know what happens to Copper, hopefully he’ll find a home soon. 🙂

[DanaNM]

I know… I’m sad about it, but it feels like the right move. There will always be more bunnies in need of homes! He will get snatched up just like Sven (remember him??)! There is already a lot of interest from potential adopters on him.

I do really hope I can get the trio bonded when we move, so everyone send your trio vibes! I’m hoping all the added pre-bonding and new location helps. Just gotta get these ladies to get over themselves!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

Oh Sven… too soon Dana, too soon… 😉

I’m sure he’ll get adopted in no time. Sending trio vibes to your ladies!

[Bam]

Lots of ((((((trio))))))) vibes!

[DanaNM]

I just had my last day at the shelter 😥 😥 😥

I’m really going to miss it! It is a special place. <3

I had a really hard time saying good bye to Copper…. now I’m second guessing and thinking I might just try all four together on the drive… if it doesn’t work I can always bring him back… ? He just seems to have good litter habits and is just even more gentle and calm now that he’s neutered.

Ahhh!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

YES! Do it! DoItDoItDoItDoItDoItDoIt!!!

I’ll stop now. But you know what to do. 😉

[DanaNM]

Hahaha I knew you would say that!

They had a date with all four today, and it was… fine? First few minutes all exploring the pen, Copper chinning everything. Some nice nose to nose interactions, some mounting (all by Copper), and none of it led to fights. He was more calm that last time but still a little wild! He attempted mounts on all three (and nearly got there with BJ) and the others would just run away and not turn to face him, so that’s good. Bun Jovi thumped A LOT and sprayed Copper after the mounting LOL. One fur pull between Bonnie and Myra, as usual, but nothing too bad. Ended after about 15-20 minutes.

All three were also able to peacefully ride in the carrier together, which makes me feel better about the move.

I get the sense that a bond between Bonnie and Copper would definitely be possible and maybe not too hard, but not sure how it would go with the group.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

Awesome, I’m so glad it went well! 🙂

I don’t blame BJ for spraying him, he needs to know his place. 😆

Did you get any pictures?

[DanaNM]

I didn’t, I forgot my phone! Here’s my convo with one of the leads at the rescue about it, for your enjoyment

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

Well, if the expert says go for it, who am I to disagree 🙄 😉

Forgot your phone, tsk tsk…

[DanaNM]

Well, my hare-brained half-deranged scheming seems to be working!

We scooped up all four buns (Copper AKA Dale Cooper, Bun Jovi, Myra, Bonnie) into a big carrier and drove from Santa Barbara to Escondido. It was about 3 hours and they were great in the carrier, mostly all snuggled up together with Coop in the center.

Currently have them in a small-ish pen (2 X 1 x-pen grids) and it’s been about 12 hours since we got here. It’s a smaller pen than I have used in the past, but since they did so well in the carrier I decided to try it a bit small at first. Overall I think it’s going really well! Although of course moments ago Myra and Bonnie scuffled a bit. Myra and Coop are getting along great, they have cuddled and she’s groomed him a bunch. He has been very social and outgoing, and seems to be trying to make friends with everyone (also trying to mount, but seems to get the message when they tell him no).

They are definitely still sorting things out, but overnight I didn’t really have to intervene at all (although I of course woke up with every sound). There is a lot of running around and lunging, but only a few instances of actual fur pulling. Lots of lounging and eating near each other. It seems pretty clear that even if I can’t get the quad done, Coop will bond with one of the girls so I can for sure have 2 pairs, since Bun Jovi was spending some time near Bonnie this morning and Myra and Coop are doing great.

Also, for those who’ve followed my past bonding journals, staying in a spare room connected to a bathroom sure beats sleeping in a garage!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

And of course I know ya’ll are going to want some pictures, so here ya go:

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[HipHopBunny]

YAYAYAYAYAY!! 😀 I’m so happy that things are working out with your group!! Copper reminds me so much of Smokey!! 😉

Wishing you a quad soon!!

[DanaNM]

Well, it’s been a very eventful day. Around mid afternoon Bun Jovi seemed a bit uncomfortable and had some weird shaped poops. Gave him some greens and water and then he snapped out of it, but then started trying to mount OBSESSIVELY for hours. Like, really extreme, and constantly chasing poor Myra, which was then stirring up everyone else. To the point where he was fighting with Cooper, where they had been cuddling early.

I spoke to my friend at the rescue and we think he might be having some bladder issues, possibly an infection or crystals that are irritating him. He prob got a bit dehydrated on the drive that amplified things. So I made the decision to separate Bun Jovi for now and call the vet tomorrow. I considered pulling him with Myra, but I know he would just continue mounting her (which he has been doing at home as well a lot more than normal) and I am genuinely concerned he might overly stress himself or her. So now he’s in a pen next to the other three, and the three are a lot more calm down again.

Poor little guy, I feel terribly about having to separate him and this ordeal, but if it is a medical issue then I’m glad that this was the catalyst for noticing it.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well today has been much less eventful, thankfully. Bun Jovi is still not with the group, will be taking him to the vet tomorrow morning. It’s a new vet, but they seem very well reviewed and have multiple rabbit vets there, so I am excited. I’m hoping it’s something easily treatable, but who knows. Maybe they wont find anything and then I will be really stumped.

The other three were very good last night, I actually got some sleep! Caught Myra and Cooper sleeping near each other most of the night. A few Myra Cooper cuddles today as well. Today there has been the occasional nip or chase, but no blow out fights or major fur pulling. The girls still mostly avoid each other, but I’m just glad they aren’t fighting! Myra will lunge at Bonnie if she wanders too close, and now Bonnie always retreats (instead of circling), so I think that’s progress. I also made their area bigger which I think is helping.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Bun Jovi is currently at the vets getting an x-ray of his bladder and urinalysis. The vet said he looked amazing in his exam, especially for his age. The only thing she noticed was he flinched when she felt his lower abdomen, which could support the bladder issue theory, or it could just be because he’s pretty jumpy at the vet. I had a very positive impression of the vet over the phone as she listened carefully to all his behavioral symptoms and the whole complicated situation, which was reassuring!

The buns were a lot more active last night. Myra is still bossing Bonnie around, I think she’s testing her. She will lunge at her if she comes close and make her move from an area if she wants to be there. HOWEVER, no fur being pulled, and it’s not turning into fights, so I think that’s progress. Bonnie always runs away and never turns to face her, so I think eventually they will trust each other. They still have some work to do though!

Cooper and Myra are nearly bonded I think. Not 100% but doing very well. Cooper and Bonnie are not aggressive towards each other, but Bonnie has been trying to sneakily mount Cooper, which he is not a fan of. So they still have some work to do as well, but seems like things are going OK.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Hazel]

Sounds great, seems like they’re working things out. 🙂

Poor BJ, did you get the results from the x-ray? I hope it’s an easy fix and he feels better soon.

Cooper is bigger than I expected, once he’s all grown up I bet he will be the biggest of the bunch! 😀

[DanaNM]

Well Bun Jovi got a clean bill of health! X-rays and urinalysis all clear. The vet actually said his health was “remarkable” for his age, so that’s great! Although it doesn’t really help with the mounting LOL. At least now I know it’s behavioral and not some underlying issue.

I think for now (starting tomorrow) I will put him with the group during the day, and then if mounting gets too intense I’ll separate him for the evenings. I think once they all trust each other the mounting won’t be such a big deal. I also might add some hides and tunnels for them to escape from him (since at home that’s what Myra would do).

Thankfully I’ve been able to add a few litter boxes and they don’t seem to be causing any issues, which makes things a lot easier to keep clean! I was starting to run low on pee pads!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

This morning I put Myra in with Bun Jovi and he just immediately went into honk-mount frenzy mode (granted he hadn’t been with her for a day so I don’t blame him). So I decided to put Coop with Myra in the smaller pen (they are basically bonded now), and then let BJ and Bonnie interact in the large pen. So far it’s going really really well with them. There has been some chasing and mounting attempts, but he’s been grooming her a lot more and they have calmed down a lot.

I honestly might just settle for two pairs… Bonnie with BJ and Myra with Cooper. Bonnie and BJ has been flirting through the fence for months, and I do worry that BJ’s mounting energy might be too much for the quad. Plus the girls are doing OK… but I still think there’s a lot of work to do with Myra and Bonnie. I could also wait till we move again to push for the full group since we will have a long journey to get there.

What do ya’ll think? My goal with all of this was to have Bonnie not be alone, so I think I would be pretty happy with 2 pairs in our current set up, because the room is big enough to give each pair a 5 X 10 run.

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

So, yesterday BJ and Bonnie did very well together, and Coop and Myra did very well together. Last night I decided to put BJ back with Myra and Coop with Bonnie. BJ and Myra were wonderful and back to normal. I realized BJ hadn’t really been eating his salad when separated from Myra but wolfed it down once they were together. Coop and Bonnie also did well overnight. I didn’t observe them that closely but no fur tufts this morning and I saw Coop groom her a bit.

So i’m thinking I will keep swapping different combos, and have the best ones spend the nights together (Myra and BJ, Coop and Bonnie). That way the more tense combos can be together during the day when everyone is more mellow (and I can get some sleep).

So today I have the boys together and the girls together. The boys were a bit tense at first, completely because BJ was just trying to mount Coop. They had a bit of a fight, I got a hard bite from Coop that seems to have pinched a nerve in my wrist… 😯 (don’t be like me, wear your gloves people!), but then have since calmed down a lot and BJ has been grooming Coop. He’s still trying to mount a bit, but is being much more calm and respectful about it, prob because he got punked by Coop.

The girls are up to their usual things… Myra chasing Bonnie if she gets close to her, but no fights or major fur pulling. So we will see… Maybe i’ll do some laundry and put the girls on top of the washer.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Also, here is the new set up. Thinking when all the combos are getting along, I can just open up the middle during the day and let all 4 interact. I closed off the condos currently as there seemed to be some disputes over them (and it was harder to separate them, hence the bite I got).

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Today was OK, nothing miraculous though… trying to focus on the positives… the girls are no longer fighting, even though they are spending most of the time on opposite sides of the pen. They did spend about an hour or so sleeping a few feet apart.

Boys had a few scuffles but eventually settled down and slept about 1 foot apart. BJ seems to be listening to Coop telling him to back off, for now, but then started getting a bit obsessed again as they got more active. Coop doesn’t mind BJ near him at all until he tries to mount him. They are very comfortable around each other until BJ tries to mount. Not sure how many times BJ will have to get his butt kicked for him to stop trying to mount!

Swapped them back so it’s Myra and BJ, and Bonnie and Coop for the evening.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well I’m hitting pause up on the quad for now. The fighting between the boys is just too vicious and I’m worried someone will get hurt (they are biting HARD). Funny, I had thought the girls would be the problem but they are actually doing alright. I have never been bitten so many times during bonding than with these boys (wearing gloves now but STILL). I have had some very tough bonds before but I’ve never seen such persistent fighting (which is very surprising odd because the boys cuddled and BJ groomed him in the beginning). At Bun Jovi’s age I just don’t want to see him get his butt kicked repeatedly.

So I will have two pairs for the time being, Bun Jovi with Myra and Bonnie with Cooper. Bonnie and Cooper still need cementing but they are peaceful with each other, so I’m happy.

Maybe Cooper is still just too hormonal smelling? He got neutered 4 weeks ago but does definitely still have a smell. I will maybe try again in several weeks (which will serve as pre-bonding), or just wait till I move again and have a very long journey to travel with them. Or maybe just be happy with the two pairs.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Hi all, just thought I would give a little update in case anyone was following.

Bun Jovi and Myra are doing great, they seem even better than at home. Perhaps all the bonding sessions re-solidified things for them. I also eliminated dandelion from their diet for now, as I had a suspicion that it’s diuretic effect might have been triggering mounting. I’ve never heard of this before, but it seems like his mounting level is back to normal (just a brief attempt each evening, not an all night chase!).

Bonnie and Cooper are getting along very well. They’ve been living together 24/7 for about 6 days now. A couple days ago there was a little chasing and fur pulling (Bonnie got some fur pulle, not a serious scuffle), but I suspect Bun Jovi got Coop riled up. So I added some visual barriers between their condo. I’ve also been penning one pair for part of the day to allow them some time together without distractions. They are very comfortable sharing the litter box and food. I would like to see a bit more cuddling and grooming before I say they are 100% bonded, but I think they are pretty nearly there. I’ve seen a few cuddles here and there, and they relax near each other often. I’ve seen a few grooms, but also not a ton. I’ve been confining them to their condo during the sleepy hours of the day (around noon to like 6 pm) to encourage them to sleep near each other, but then giving them run around time overnight. They are VERY comfortable around each other so I’m tempted to call them bonded, but based on past experience I’d like to see some more cuddling! It’s also hard to observe because Cooper gets so excited when I come in that I don’t know what was happening before I walked in the room.

Here are some not great pictures of them that I was able to sneak without Cooper running over to me:

Cooper was actually closer to Myra right away, so it might just take a little time for him and Bonnie to get that close. That fact actually makes me glad that I went this route, because I would have hated for Bonnie to be the odd one out again! It was tempting to have BJ and Bonnie together, and Myra with Cooper, but Myra and BJ just seemed so happy to be back together, so I wasn’t going to split them up.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Louiethebunny]

They look so cute together! Cooper is certainly one floppy little dude.

[Author]

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