Tricks other than stressing for bonding two dominant buns?

[DanaNM]

Hi everyone, 

Thought I would ask this question on it’s own vs. in my bonding thread as it might be of more general interest. Progress is slow with my two, but knowing how bonding goes, things can seem to plateau and then one day they are best friends suddenly (hoping thats the case).

My situation is things started out pretty good, and have been stuck at that “pretty good” level. A few small victories, but it seems that along with more relaxed positive behaviors I also see more scuffling. Stressing seems to help, but I can’t tell if that’s just because Bun Jovi is so stressed he won’t assert himself. Then the minute he relaxes more he decides he wants to be dominant. 

I do think stressing has been and continues to be a very useful tool, but I don’t want to stress them too much, as it really effects Bun Jovi, and I think if it effects them unequally that can lead to some issues. 

So my question is, does anyone know of other tips for bonding two dominant buns, aside from stressing? 

I’ve tried banana on heads, but it didn’t get BJ to groom Bertha, only her to groom him (which is the opposite of what needs to happen). Trying longer sessions (I prob wont have time to truly marathon for at least a week or two though…), which will probably work eventually. 

Any ideas for other ways to help them along? I have been petting them both when they ask for grooms to prevent scuffling, but I might stop that so they don’t get the wrong idea. 

I realize that if I was answering this question from someone else, I would say “Patience!”, ha! But figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask.  

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Dface]

I used more space instead of less. I also found a pen outside was a huge success – it was neutral area all the time as smell doesn’t cling to outside. I found it was the only way to deal with two dominant buns! it can be stressful for buns bit without being deliberate stress if you know what I mean. I always kept a close eye out for any predators (my dog was actually very good for keeping other dogs away)

[DanaNM]

Outside is a good idea! I’ve liked the shelter pens for that reason, but there are so many other bunnies around which can be distracting for them. I wonder if I could find an area close to my apartment that would work. There are a ton of dogs in my neighborhood though… and I unfortunately don’t have a dog of my own to help out!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Dface]

If you find somewhere with only a single point of entry it makes it easier to keep an eye out for dogs, and when you see one off lead bundle them into a carrier.

We had a scary moment when I asked a man to keep his half wolf dog on a lead (because of my rabbits ) and he said sure and just let the dog off while I was standing next to him (so the dog had free run at my bunnies.) Even though they were in a secure topped pen a dog running them would move it easy enough)

Although I got growled at I did manage to grab the dog and calm it before anything g could happen.
But most people saw the two rabbits and kept their dogs on the lead so it was handy (when I was lucky enough to have an extra person I told them to stand close to the top of the field and ask people to keep their dogs on the lead (it’s in the law here anyway) while I delt with the rabbits.
For stubborn buns I found the more space I could offer was better , with lots of distractions helped keep them from ever feeling like they needed to chase or lunge.

[Bianca]

It really can depend on the rabbits.

I have a bonded group of 4. It started with a pair, then a trio, now the quartet. Terry, who is part of the original pair, is a strange rabbit. Provided he is kept happy during the bonding process he is super friendly and can bond to anything quite quickly. And if he bonds with a new rabbit, the others follow suit.

But to keep Terry happy, he can’t be stress bonded. He also cannot be bonded in neutral territory, because that stresses him. He doesn’t like food being involved in the bonding process. He doesn’t like short bonding sessions. If I try something he doesn’t like, he gets stressed. And when he gets stressed, he gets aggressive. Weirdly what works for him is (after lots of pre bonding) to put the new rabbit in Terry’s territory with him. If he is separated from said rabbit (but still in Terry’s room) then Terry will get super passive aggressive. But if allowed a marathon bonding session from the start (after pre bonding) with no stress, no food (except constant hay supply), and me just sitting by to be safe, he isn’t an issue. He somehow manages to get every rabbit to make friends with him. And once Terry is happy with the new rabbit, the rest of the group follow suit fairly quick. Maggie is usually a grump for a couple of days, but she never does anything worse than a nip or two.

I’m not suggesting you just go and try this. But definitely just keep in mind you need to do what works for you and your rabbits, even if it isn’t conventional.

[DanaNM]

Thanks Bianca!

Yeah I don’t know if that method would work with my two, but it is really interesting!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Alex&Clary]

Just an idea that worked for me, in a one off, so I don’t know if it would work for anyone else, but I tried microspace bonding, it worked for me and set a pretty solid bond in my 2 who were very aggressive and dominant with each other. I can link the original blog post, and the link to my bonding journal.
https://bandoliersnbunnies.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/bunny-bonding-blues-micro-space-bonding/
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/165214/Default.aspx
Obviously it is just an idea, but I found that in such a small space they couldn’t hurt each other, and they couldn’t really do anything besides be smooshed together.

[Harley&Thumper]

From what I understand, pairs that needed to bond through micro-space bonding are more likely to break up when things change. Like when you move or if a new person or pet enters the home. This isn’t always the case but I believe it is something worth mentioning.

[DanaNM]

All very interesting!

It seems that people come in two camps: large spaces or small spaces. The current space I’ve been using is about 24 x 48, so not quite micro.

I’ve also heard debate over marathoning vs. slow and steady….

It does seem to be that once bonded, the bond is the same, no matter the method. I do think that observing closely when the space is expanded is probably very important.

It’s interesting, because I have read lots of accounts of bunnies fighting because they are in a small space (like the bath tub) and have no room to get away from each other. I would be concerned about them ending up head to tail and just immediately locking on to each other….

But then again, I have put them in a bin for car rides and they have been fine for the most part.

I think the only thing that’s really true is that every pair is different, and different things work for different pairs, and maybe lots of things could work given enough time. Hence why I started this thread!

Since I have tried large and stressful, and didn’t seem to make much huge gains, going small might be worth a shot… I can always end it or make the space larger again if it doesn’t seem to be working.

Bertha is quite large, so 24 x 24 would be very small…I would be inclined to just make the whole floor a litter box so they don’t end up laying in pee!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Sirius&Luna]

I don’t think the microspace bonding is more likely to break up – it’s what the two professional bonders I’ve spoken to use, and it always works for them, it’s just a different method.

[DanaNM]

Well, tried the small space, and it was a glorious failure.

Mine can definitely fight in a small space, so that method is out. Going to post about it in detail in my other thread.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

For anyone else that reads this thread in the future, my local shelter coordinator has been working with my two, and her strategy seems to be getting us back on track. She has bonded many rabbits over her 20 years at the shelter, and tends to take a different approach than some.

Her strategy when they come nose to nose is to just pet them lots, and basically anytime they come near each other, to break the cycle of “you come near me and we fight” and start building up positive feelings.

The first session she did this, Bertha groomed Bun Jovi three times! Second session, I didn’t get the full run down, but when I arrived Bun Jovi was grooming Bertha a little!

Not there yet, but definitely steps in the right direction, and a much less stressful bonding experience for all of us.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Vienna Blue in France]

My two definitely fought hard in a small space.

My two worked by allowing them lots of space to chase and be chased in, with hooman interaction only when they didn’t break up straight away.
By reducing the big space bit by bit, it forced them to be closer but without really stressing them out.

Of course the main issue was my doe not realising she wasn’t going to be top bun and ‘give in’?
Once she did, it was sorted in a few days.

And now, it is pure luuuurve.

[DanaNM]

i was originally trying the large space approach, and it didn’t seem to be working out that we’ll.. The more I let them chase etc, the worse each date was getting. And considering they are both about 8 years old, I’m happy to try a strategy that is a little more focused on building positive interactions. I know they eventually will have to decide who is top, but things were just escalating too fast and it seemed like we were entering a bad cycle of always fighting.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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