Tough female x female bond advice?

[anoniemouse]

Hi guys!  I’m a first
time poster but I’ve been reading the forums for a while now.

We’ve got two female rabbits Windy and Aurora, both
spayed.  I knew going into this that it
would be a difficult bond, even before we decided on a second female.  I’m fairly new to this but my husband has had
rabbits before and bonded them before, but since getting Windy a friend was
mostly my idea my husband kind of took the backseat for this endeavor.  I’ve made a few rookie mistakes, but overall
things are going better than they could be. 
We’ve found the best neutral space in the house and there’s little
fighting, but we’ve reached an impasse.

Windy is four years old and has never had any bunny friends
since she was extremely young, so I don’t think she ever learned how to
socialize.  Aurora is a little over a
year old now and has been very interested in making friends with Windy since
the very beginning, but I think she’s getting a little frustrated with
Windy.  They’ve reached the point where
they can hang out in the same space together without fighting and will even
flop down near each other, but not touching yet.  Windy is very demanding for attention (and
always has been) and most of the time Aurora will groom her.  Unfortunately, Windy will NOT groom Aurora back.  Most of the time Aurora doesn’t let this
bother her too much, but sometimes Windy will nip her if she stops grooming
before Aurora is ready which sometimes leads to them fighting.  This happens most often when Aurora comes
back to groom Windy later after Windy has already nipped her and Aurora asks
for grooming in return.

I’ve tried the banana on the head thing, which is how I got
Aurora to groom Windy in the beginning, but Windy doesn’t seem to understand
how to be gentle and will bite Aurora’s head pretty hard if there’s banana on
it.  Does anyone have any suggestions on
ways to encourage Windy to reciprocate? 
I’m worried that Windy will never groom Aurora and that it will prevent
them from truly bonding.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[DanaNM]

How long are your bonding sessions, and how long have you been working with them? Also, how large is your bonding space?

I’ve had a couple tough bonds, and I’ve found that when we reach this stubborn bun stage, the best thing has been to take them to a completely new, large space and marathon them there. So if you have a friend or relative’s house where you can camp out for a weekend, that could help them finally sort things out for good.

It is also important to allow nipping and short chasing, and only intervene when things are about to escalate. When I’ve marathoned, I’ve tried not to hover too much, to allow them to really communicate with each other. Sometimes they need space to chase it out.

I don’t think the banana will help much right now. I think what needs to happen is that Windy needs to trust that Aurora is fully submissive to her. Since the nipping when grooming stops is leading to fighting (other than Aurora just retreating), that tells me that Aurora still isn’t fully submissive. For bonds to form they really need to trust each other. Once that happens, she will likely groom her back.

My first pair didn’t have very much reciprocal grooming, but it was obvious that they were bonded, as my boy Bunston just worshiped my girl Bertha. She didn’t groom him back often, but they were super super snuggley and he would just groom her constantly. So I don’t necessarily think the lack of two way grooming is the issue, but in your case it’s a symptom that they aren’t quite trusting each other yet.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[anoniemouse]

Thanks for the advice!

I’ve been thinking about trying a marathon for a while now but I’ll see if someone is willing to rent out a room for us for the weekend. Right now we don’t have any super large neutral space that we’re willing to let them roam free in because Windy is super destructive, so their bonding sessions have been limited to single xpen size. They’ll have a bigger space as soon as we get the new pen in from Amazon.

I’ve definitely got the feeling that Aurora never wanted to be the submissive bunny but she’s been so desperate for bunny attention that she gave in and groomed first. It’ll probably be a while until we get the opportunity to marathon but I’ll try to update as soon as we do.

[DanaNM]

Yeah, I’ve always found those submissive buns to me mythical creatures, like unicorns…. :p Mine have always had a heck of a time sorting things out!

You didn’t mention how long you’d been working with them, but with what you describe (being able to peacefully share space and relax near each other), it sounds like they will eventually sort things out with enough patience and persistence. Sometimes it’s not even all that clear which one is dominant, but suddenly they are best friends, so they reach some sort of agreement somehow.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[anoniemouse]

We pre bonded them for about two months and started daily or almost daily sessions at the end of March (almost two months already!) and it’s been… interesting.
I did a normal bonding session today, though a little shorter than normal and they were very good. Aurora groomed Windy a lot and Windy groomed their stuffed bunnies, which is a major improvement. She even looked like she considered grooming Aurora back but changed her mind when she saw me looking. I expect it’ll still be a long while because Aurora thumped twice at Windy when she tried to steal hay from the litter box, but I’m optimistic.

[anoniemouse]

Here’s a picture of them pretending to get along

Edit: I don’t think the picture loaded so here’s the link:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2cqcso5.jpg

[DanaNM]

Sometimes all it takes is one good date for things to start improving.

And, your presence can definitely influence things! If you can, try to be out of sight, not in the pen with them, or at least looking the other way (reading a book or something).

My current pair took 4 months. And they had a great first date, but both really really wanted to be dominant. Now they are best buddies and sooo happy.  

If you want some encouragement you can check out my thread here: https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/164900/afpg/3/Default.aspx

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[anoniemouse]

The attempt at marathon bonding did not go well.
For some reason, every new neutral territory makes them think it’s attack time. Aurora did okay in the beginning but Windy would defensively bite at her every time she approached, even when she was clearly just coming in to groom. I think this may stem from her first interaction with bunnies, when she jumped into a room with a bonded pair and the aggressive female bit the crap out of her, or it could be from some rushed pre bonding that we did, but I’m not sure.
Aurora ended up with a whole lot of fur pulled but Windy was only getting chased until the end where they got at each other during a bathroom break. Windy just had fur pulled but Aurora had a huge chunk taken out from right next to her ear that she wouldn’t let me touch. There’s no blood but it looks like a bit of skin got yanked out.
I’m thinking about separating and completely starting over. They act fine with bars between them but Windy just seems terrified about being approached by any rabbit and I’m not sure what caused it.

Edit: There’s a little bit of a positive today though, since Aurora has been super affectionate all morning. She’s been following me around and grooming my legs.

[Bianca]

You may need to go back a step seeing as they had a worse fight during your attempt at marathon bonding. But don’t give up – rabbits can still bond after fighting it might just take a little extra patience.

[DanaNM]

I agree with separating, taking a full break, and starting over. How could you tell that Aurora was “clearly coming in to groom”? I have found myself interpreting my buns’ behaviors wrong during bonding. Aurora may seem to you as those she is trying to be friends, but this may also be her exerting dominance. It can be hard to tell…

Have you tried the smoosh technique? Or petting them both (especially Windy) when they approach each other?

Let them calm down, then really focus on building trust. Lots of petting. Do not allow any fighting, or anything remotely resembling fighting.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[anoniemouse]

I kept them separate for a day and I’ve gone back to pre bonding. They’re still in cages next to each other and I’ve been swapping litter boxes again. Once Aurora went back into her pen, they both dropped giant poop bombs but there hasn’t been much since I cleaned it up. So far they’ve been ignoring each other through the pens and there hasn’t been any nipping that I’ve seen. Windy has been flopping in her cage which I haven’t seen in a while.

It’s possible I’m misinterpreting Aurora but in the beginning she’d approach Windy cautiously and then start to groom her, even when Windy nips her, and once during the marathon session she binkied almost on top of Windy and started grooming her then too. As the session continued Windy would keep nipping Aurora, even going out of her way to do it and then run off. Aurora would start to chase her but usually would break off after they ran across the room. The longer I kept them together, the worse everything got.

The husbun and I are going on vacation next week so I may start reintroducing them once we get back.

Edit: I tried catching them and smooshing them together during the marathon but they were impossible to catch together, but I’ve done it in the smaller pen during bonding sessions with mixed results. I’ll probably try to keep them smooshed for longer this time before I let them do their own things I the pen together.

[DanaNM]

Hmmm interesting! It really sounds like they are still sorting out how to communicate with each other. Our rescue once said “Rabbits don’t speak rabbit”, and this seems to be really true when they have never interacted with another bunny before. It’s like middle schoolers at a dance… they want to be friends.. but they are not sure how to!

Nipping is a part of bunny communication, so it usually should be allowed during sessions unless it leads to hard biting or a fight.

If things tend to get worse in longer sessions, that usually means you are moving too fast.

I usually would only use the smoosh or petting when they approach on their own, or if I have them in a small space together (like during a car ride session).

Btw, make sure they cannot reach each other in their separate cages, they should not be able to nip through the bars. Depending on how big the grids are, 4-6 inches of buffer is usually safe, or use small grid size mesh in between the pens.

With pre-bonding, usually a good sign that you are ready to move on is when you swap their cages and they don’t go and mark everywhere. Sometimes this never happens, or sometimes it happens right away. You will also start to see their behaviors sync up: they will eat at the same time, use the box at the same time, groom themselves at the same time. All of these are good signs, and will help Windy learn that Aurora isn’t a threat.

I can’t remember if you tried any stressing techniques, but a car ride together in a bin or a carrier can be really helpful with tough bonds. The stress can help them start to see each other as a comfort, rather than an enemy. Have someone drive, you sit in the back seat and make sure the buns don’t fight.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[anoniemouse]

Little update:
Their fight was worse than I thought. I found some spots on Aurora where Windy broke skin (although not enough to cause any bleeding). Aurora definitely seems less keen on Windy now so I’m gonna keep them apart for a long while.
Windy has progressed to the ignoring stage though it seems to me like she’s started mirroring what Aurora does when before it was always Aurora mirroring Windy, but it’s too soon for me to be sure. Aurora actively ignores Windy now, but doesn’t go out of her way to avoid her. Their cages are set up the same way but opposite so their sleeping spots are near each other and they end up sleeping next to each other.
They haven’t been poop marking as much as they did the first night and I made a dig box for them that they both really enjoy hiding in.
I’m going to try to swap cages tonight and see how they handle that but I doubt I’ll get into proper bonding sessions until July or so.

[DanaNM]

Aww yeah, sometimes it’s good to let them cool down a bit and just go back to pre-bonding. With my most recent pair, they did have a set back from a fight that slightly broke the skin, and it took them a while to get back on track.

Once you do start sessions again, here’s what I would do (kind of starting from scratch and making sure they don’t get into bad associations again):
-Start with a car ride (or a ride on top of the washing machine). Have a helper drive, pop both bunnies into a plastic bin, and drive around with them for 10-15 minutes or so. You sit with them and make sure they don’t fight. You can smoosh them together and pet.
– Repeat that for a couple of days.

-Then, find a new, very neutral, large space (maybe a friend’s house?). Or, if you must use the same space you used before, clean it very well and try to disguise it a bit. Start with them in the car, then move them into the new area together. Stay right there with them, and if they approach each other, pet pet pet pet to prevent them from biting. Keep petting until they relax near each other, or one leaves. Start with short sessions with defined time goals (say, car ride, then 5 minutes in neutral space to start). Slowly increase the length of the sessions, and slowly ease up on the petting. Then you can try not doing the car ride first, but it might still be helpful to pop them into the bin together, and move them into the bonding area that way.

Ideally you should start to seem them be more relaxed around each other with these steps. That way, even if they nip, it won’t escalate to a fight. Once you get to the point where they don’t need much petting to prevent disputes, you can think about trying longer sessions.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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