To seperate or not to seperate…

[Belleloves]

Hi everyone.

So my 3 mixed breed lionheads are about to turn 16 weeks.
Yesterday, i witnessed their first humping (still stunned from what i saw as a new rabbit owner)

Rabbit 1 – big boss (biggest in size)
Rabbit 2 – spikey (twin of big boss)
Rabbit 3 – whitey (same batch but looks toward dwarf rabbit)

A background info, all of them are males and not fixed, because its quite difficult in my circumstances. They were all living well, well bonded, grooming each other and playing together, untill yesterday where big boss started chasing both of them and humping them.

Initially, the other 2 were ok with it, but after awhile, spikey started to retaliate and hump big boss. And then big boss kept humping spikey, thay spikey gave up. Instead, he went to dominate whitey instead, and that poor rabbit kept getting humped in the face or at the back by both of them.

So i spent the night washing their cage and removing all the smell i could, and placed them back together. But the cycle repeats. After awhile, spikey started biting the cage as if he wanted me to let him out. Whitey kept looking at me.. (not sure if he can actually see me).

So anyway, current situation; the big boss is dominating the both of them obviously, and the two rabbits are just avoiding him. A slight movement from him and both goes crazy running round their cage. Spikey doesnt even dare to go near him if he is at the food bowl, even though he clearly wants to eat. Whitey just eats when no one is there.

Chasing wise, only big boss and spikey keeps taking turn trying to be the boss, and whitey just stays in a corner and avoiding them.

For now, i’m thinking if i should actually seperate them to 2:1, 1:1:1 or just let them stay since they dont fight. (But im afraid if they actually do, its too late)

My thoughts is to seperate whitey out, since he is actually more calm and allows me to touch him. He comes and follows me time to time, and does not mind sitting on my lap. I feel like he might be more affectionate with me if he stays alone instead, and probably less stress. (Now he just seems so sad, always having his head bowed low and lying frozen when the other two comes near, though they never disturb him)

Or should i seperate big boss instead, since he is actually the most donminat one now?

I have read a lot of articles related but the opinion varies. Some mentioned that if they dont fight its fine, some said that its better to seperate. The biggest problem is because they are not fixed, but it is really something i cant do now!

Please give me some advice on what i should do!!

Thank you ❤

P/S: Sometimes they are still fine and helps groom each other too.

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi

Three bunnies sounds like a handful! I’m afraid that you definitely need to separate all three bunnies.

Pretty much all bunnies will get along with each other as babies, but as you’ve now found out, when hormones kick in at about 3-5 months, everything can suddenly change. Rabbits can get into really vicious fights with very little warning, so it really is important to separate them. They will sometimes fight to the death.

Face humping is also dangerous, as if the rabbit being humped gets annoyed they can very easily take a bite out of the other’s genitals, which is obviously very unpleasant and would require an emergency vet visit.

If one or two of the bunnies are obviously sad and afraid to eat, that is unfair on them, and they need to be given their own space where they can relax and eat. They could even go into GI stasis if prevented from eating, as well as due to the stress. I know you said that sometimes they still groom and snuggle, but as you’ve seen, things can turn nasty very quickly, and that is not enough for them to be safe to stay together.

I’m afraid it will not be possible to keep three unneutered males together. The best bet is to separate them now (into three separate cages/areas, ensuring that they can’t touch through bars), get them neutered, and then start pre-bonding and bonding them. If you allow them to fight and go on like this, they will hold grudges and it will be very hard to get them to live together ever again.

I know you said neutering was difficult, but it really is the only way for three males to live together.

The other thing to consider is that they might not even all be male! Young rabbits are very hard to sex, and if you have accidentally have a girl, she could get pregnant very easily – another important reason to separate!

[Bam]

I agree with Sirus&Luna. Males must be neutered to be able to live together, and even then they still might fight. They can fight really bad and injure each other severely. You’ll need to keep them apart.

[Deleted User]

Yep, they all need to be separate until you can neuter.

And as S&L said, it’s possible that they were incorrectly sexed and you could have some females on your hands. Even regardless of sex, they can fight really bad and injure or kill each other.

[Belleloves]

Thank you all for the advices!

I guess its going to be really sad to have them seperated.
But yes, i think its a better option for my rabbits and me too! I have been living in fear and getting my family to watch them while im in school, just in case they fight real hard. It worries me so much at night when i hear the bells ringing non-stop (their toy ball) because some rabbit is obviously running around like mad.

Today, i just witnessed big boss humping spikey again, while whitey just lay flat (LIKE REALLY FLAT!!) on the ground because he was sooo afraid.

What i’m concerned now is that, will they get really lonely if i seperate them?
Because i heard that rabbits will get really lonely without a friend

And once i seperate them, do you think it is possible for me to let them run around my house at the same time, just like now? Will they forget each other and start fighting if i let them loose together?

Which means, i seperate them into different cage, but let them out to play together.
Would it be a good idea? ?

[Sirius&Luna]

No, they need to be separated entirely, all the time, not playing together. Rabbits do prefer to have company, but it doesn’t count as company if they’re being bullied, stressed and not allowed to eat. They would prefer to be alone than that. If you’re worried about them being lonely you can keep them in the same room as each other but there must be at least 8 inches between all their cages. They must not be allowed out together, or the same behaviour will continue and escalate, ending in someone getting seriously injured.

I see you were actually advised by a few people to separate them over a month ago, so I don’t know why you’re still debating if it’s necessary – you were told that this would happen. If you can see that Whitey is very afraid, and you’re worried all the time you clearly need to separate them.

I’m also a bit worried that you’re basing them being boys on that photo you previously posted – that’s not a reliable way of knowing, and you really could have a girl rabbit that is about to get pregnant.

If you are able to neuter them, then you will be able to work on putting them back together, after going through a bonding process.

[sarahthegemini]

If they are afraid of one another, being separated isn’t going to make them miss each. You can always try and bond them once they’ve all been neutered. And no, they can’t have play time together. Complete separation.

[Deleted User]

Whitey’s behavior is very concerning, as I know that is how females tend to lay when they are being mounted for mating purposes. So he could very well be a she, and you could have more than just three bunnies on your hands. You As people told you in your previous thread, and now in this one, they need to be separated and remained separated at all times. No contact whatsoever. They need to all be neutered and/or spayed before you can even think about them being together again. The bonding process can be very long and it requires a lot of patience https://binkybunny.com/desktopmodules/activeforums/themes/BB_Theme/save32.pngand energy. You will never be able to just simply put bunnies together.

[Deleted User]

I am sorry you are going through this stress. Keeping bunnies can be like that!
But I really think you should have them all neutered as the others have said. If you can’t afford the costs of three neuters (and it isn’t cheap) then you may need to think about rehoming 1 or 2 of them. This is why I am a firm believer that its just a recipy for disaster when people just get a bunch of rabbits either when they don’t have their own income or don’t know enough about rabbits as they are not cheap to keep. It just creates more stress and panic for both owner and bunny.
The situation will not get batter, if anything it will get worse.

[Deleted User]

I can’t stress enough that you need to separate them like NOW. You can’t wait any longer

[Belleloves]

Thanks for the replies!

Yes i was told to seperate in the previous thread but i didnt because i felt that they were still ok together!

 

And no!! I did not base their gender with those photos. I actually took them to the vet to verify when they were about 12 weeks old. Unless the vet identified wrongly, i was sure they are 3 males. 

Regarding neutering, its not really the cost that i am bothered with, but rather my area has very little rabbits specialised vet, which is why i am pondering whether to neuter them. Neutering would have helped me alot since they are also spraying pee everywhere I’m just worried that they might not survive the operations, since my country is not really known for rabbits vet. 

But i get the message! I will seperate them immediately and try looking for a trustworthy vet. Until then.. i’ll just spend more time with them ??

Thank you so much everyone!!

[Deleted User]

Keeping unaltered rabbits together because they were littermates is a common mistake among first time owners.

But the repercussions are VERY real. And yes, they should have been kept separately. I’m confused why you got 3 rabbits that you didnt intend on neutering?? I understand not having a rabbit savvy vet in the area… but if I were you and I knew that, I would have just gotten a single male rabbit…. it’s not absolutely essential to neuter one male. But if you plan on bonding them ever, you definitely need them neutered

[Belleloves]

I adopted the rabbits from my friend because her rabbits were wrongly identified and ending up getting pregnant. She had no choice but to give them away. Because she wanted to give them to someone she knew, thats how i ending up adopting 3 of them ?

[Deleted User]

Even at 12 weeks, bunnies can be difficult to sex, as some males do not drop until 6-8 months. It might be a good idea to look and see if anyone has dropped yet, just so you know for sure they are in fact all boys. Aside from neutering you need a good bunny savvy vet for anything that could go wrong with them because they have much more specific needs than a dog or a cat would. If the three buns separately cause you a lot of stress or you foresee that happening, it wouldn’t be a bad thing to consider rehoming one or two of them, just for their individual needs and care. I have two separate buns, and even that is stressful at times.

[Belleloves]

Yes! I intend to bring them for a second check. I have a feeling that whitey might be a female as well after hearing one of the replies ? considering his behaviour and all. 

But can i ask, why would 2 seperate buns be stressful? 😮

[Deleted User]

I’m out of the house from 6am-6pm. Sadly, they don’t get their “recommended” amount of time each out. Typically they get between 2-3 hours out a night each. A bun needs 4-6 hours minimum out of their cages. My husband and I rent two rooms in a shared house, so they are housed in the same room, which means I have to take time to let each one out separately. So they’re usually out from 6-12 or 7-12. They get tons of time on the weekend because I’m such a homebody, but it’s not fun knowing they’re cooped up so long on weekdays. We’re sending them to a bonder in a month, which will make our lives, and theirs, much easier. But two separate buns means double the territorial poos (poos everywhere! sweeping like 3 times a night), four litter boxes to clean, two cages to clean, twice the food, twice the vet bills, twice the exercise time.The vet bills is where they can honestly stress you the most. Bombur has had several GI issues, mites, and now possible EC… all in his 10 short months on earth. And it has not been cheap. Things like that make it stressful, especially if like me you work 40 hours a week, then go to grad school full time. They keep me going though

[Deleted User]

Because even buns living separately comes with challenges.

You have to let them out separately for exercise, feed them each separately, provide separate living arrangements, and unbounded rabbits can exhibit unwanted behaviors such as marking or territorial poop piles (not to mention aggression as well). Additionally, you worry what would happen if the two got to each other… a bunny fight can be the most terrible thing to witness

[Deleted User]

A&B I so feel for you! We are the same person, I swear!! XD

[Deleted User]

hahahaha I know! I think that every time we comment on the same posts xD not to mention the same sense of humor!

[Belleloves]

Wow i’m really learning a lot about rabbits now.
The truth is in our country (from my understanding), people focus more on dogs and cats, and the impression of rabbits is that they are calm pets who just sit around all day.

My friends who visit and even my parents are shocked at how active they are!! (Actually so am i) But that is how i actually fell in love with them because they are really really cute.

Just another question, so if i let them out seperately, would i have to block out the other cages so that they do not interact/fight? Since it is said that they may fight through the grills!

[Deleted User]

Just have a good enough of a barrier between them. They can still see each other, and that might actually help the bonding process after they’ve been fixed.

And I hear you on that one! They’re such interesting creatures. Everyday is a new adventure

[Sirius&Luna]

Can you let them out to run around in a different room to where they all live? Otherwise you could use x pens to block them from getting to each other, or bits of cardboard.

If you don’t mind telling us what country you live in, someone might be able to help with vets. Are there rabbit rescues there? That’s a good place to start – they can often recommend someone they use. Rabbit vets are often known as ‘exotic’ vets, so you could try searching for that too.

[Belleloves]

Ok! I guess i’ll block out the area when i let them out to play.
Just sad that they can no longer play tgt, and i wont be able to see cute cuddles and sweet groomings.

I have found a vet that is recommended on my local site, and they have quite a good review. Will probably bring them for a visit soon!

Thank you everyone for the advices! Really helped me made a big decision before its too late.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Asriel and Bombur on 1/24/2018 9:06 PM

The vet bills is where they can honestly stress you the most. 

Tell me about it!!! I think i have spent 3 grand on Finn alone in 6 months. 

Sounds like I am going to be in your situation soon 

[Sirius&Luna]

Hopefully if you get them neutered you’ll be able to bond them, then you’ll be able to see lots of cuddles and grooming, without worrying that they’ll hurt each other

When you find a vet to do the neuters don’t be afraid to ask them questions like how many rabbits do they see, and how often do they do neuters? Rabbits should never be fasted before an operation, so if they tell you to stop the rabbit eating before its neuter, that is a bad sign and you shouldn’t use them. They should be sent home with pain meds (metacam or loxicom) and encouraged to eat

If you have any questions about neuters and post neuter care, make another post and people will be able to advise

[Deleted User]

Posted By Belleloves on 1/24/2018 9:55 PM

Wow i’m really learning a lot about rabbits now.
The truth is in our country (from my understanding), people focus more on dogs and cats, and the impression of rabbits is that they are calm pets who just sit around all day.

Yes and that is what annoys me! rabbits are more active then dogs and have just as much personality! Rabbits with the correct care and an experienced handler are great pets. But you need experience. The reason why rabbits appear to be a “boring pet” is because they are not looked after correctly and stuck outside with no attention. 

[Belleloves]

Yes i hope the vet would be a good one! Will be making a visit soon.

As for now, i have seperated all three of them!
Big boss looks really sad though, while spikey looks way mucu happier (eating, drinking and grooming like a boss)
Whitey just sits there stoning all day.

Its quite sad to see them feeling sad, but i guess its better for them at least for now! Maybe and hopefully by tomorrow, they will start to get used to being alone and live happily while receiving all the love i can give them ?

[Deleted User]

I don’t think that they are sad, I think you may be misinterpreting their behavior. I say this because a lot of people seem to think that separating their unbonded rabbits makes the rabbits sad. It’s just the opposite, in my opinion.

When rabbits are living together but are not bonded, they have to constantly be on alert of the other rabbit because they don’t trust them. This constant state of stress might make a new owner think that the rabbits are more energetic and happier because they are more active. But that isn’t the case, they just seem more active because they have to be constantly aware in case the other rabbit decides to attack.

So, when people separate the unbonded pairs and note a reduction in energy/activity level, they assume that they have made their rabbits sad when in reality the rabbit is just finally able to chill out and not be constantly stressing about defending themselves from the other rabbit. So don’t think of it as them being sad. They’re just chillin. They were never bonded so they don’t miss each other.

[Deleted User]

That is too true BN! When I separated Asriel and Bombur at 11 weeks, Asriel really started coming out of his shell. Sadly, the night that really made Asriel come out of his shell was when Bombur spent the night at the vet back in October. My goodness I never saw him so happy. He was coming up to me for all the nose rubs, climbing all over me, laying on my chest, all the binkies and zoomies.

[Deleted User]

What a little jerk! XD I think it’s hilarious that they are so radically different. It’s just like me and my twin sister… how can two things that came together be so opposite!

[Belleloves]

Sigh! You may be right about that.
As a newbie owner, i assumed that growing up together would mean they are bonded naturally. But i was sooo wrong.

I should have recalled the times when i kept hamsters, and that despite being siblings, they all fought like mad. I was just too buried deep with the idea that rabbits are just calm and doing nothing all day!

But then again, back in my younger days, i remembered that my aunt used to kept tons of rabbits in a single cage because they kept breeding non-stop (irresponsible yes, but that was a really long time ago), and her rabbits were just sitting in the cage doing nothing. Thats probably where i started to have that idea haha!!

Anyway, really learnt a lot about rabbits in this short 2 months..Thankful to all the helps given! At least now i know, if i need to know something about rabbits, a bunch of lovely owners will be here to help me!! ?

[Deleted User]

Rabbits are not common domestic pets so there’s a lot of inaccurate information out there.

Don’t worry, we were all newbies at one time! (Look at me, when I first made my account I literally put noob in my name!) And now I know everything. jk! I’m still learning.

I remember having rabbits as a kid and now I feel soooooooo bad. We had two (Haven and Velvet) and they just lived in a wire bottom cage outside and we fed them carrots and crap all day. I’m surprised that it was the cats that ended up doing them in and not us! But I was a child and I didn’t know any better. And I was only allowed on the computer for Crayola.com … that’s it…. and even that was SUPERVISED XD So I couldn’t do my own research. Plus I doubt there was much information on pet rabbits back in the 90s anyway…

[Deleted User]

LOL! I feel like once you’ve scoured the forums you’re like, psh I know SO much. But then sometimes we come back for like the most basic of things are like DOY! 

[Belleloves]

Hahaha i know right!!

And here i am with another update.
Big boss and whitey doesnt wanna eat!! Even when i try hand feeding their favourite pellets they just dont want it.

So… i let all 3 of them out to play and they started friendly chasing each other and cuddling in a corner. (Dont scold me if it was a wrong move ?)

And i’m now typing this while staring at them while they stare at me. Will keep a close eye on them in case they start fighting.

But now i’m not sure if when i put them back in their cages, are they going to be “sad” again and not eat? Will give it a try but if that really happens, whats should i do next?

[Bam]

I can’t give you any other advice than to separate them again and try to make them eat. If they’re eating hay and veg and their poop is good, they don’t absolutely need pellets. Perhaps if you take them out one by one individually and sit with them they’ll eat? They do want to be together, but it could end badly and if something happens, it happens really fast. They could for example bite off each others genitals, it only takes seconds of backwards humping. That would be very painful and require very expensive reconstructive surgery. My neutered male bit through the eyelid of my other neutered male bun when i was trying to bond them 8I could never bond them), and it still causes him trouble at times, even after 3 years. If the buns manage to hurt each other, it could ruin their chances of ever being able to live together, even if you have them all neutered.

I’m not saying this to be dramatic. It’s just so you can make informed choices. You can hae a look around at other forums as well, I’m pretty sure you’ll get much the same advice. I do see how it feels sad not to let them be toghether now when that’s all they seem to really want. We want our buns to have happy lives. You have to remind yourself that you’re separating them temporarily for their own longterm good. But it’s not always fun to be the “bad” parent that’s spoiling all the fun.

[Deleted User]

Chasing is not friendly or playful. In fact, it’s often the beginning of a fight breaking out. Every time you put them together you risk fighting and serious injuries. Every time you put them together they are learning that they can’t trust the other rabbit. This is going to make your bonding them considerably harder.

Please, separate them. You are putting them all in danger by what you are doing.

[Deleted User]

Like I said in another post, you can’t always keep a close eye on them, and if a fight breaks out it breaks out quick. As BN said, chasing is not a sign of playfulness or affection, it is typically a precursor to a fight. You really do need to have them completely and totally separated. We won’t scold you for a wrong move, but it is frustrating for people to give advice (and all the same advice) and to not have people listen. Everyone here cares about the well being of bunnies, that’s why we’re here. And we really are telling you to separate them for their own safety and well being. If they look sad or lonely, yes that’s understandable because they’ve been together for a while, and they are social creatures. But while their hormones are at play the only things on their mind are to fight and breed.

I had to separate my boys at 11 weeks because a pretty big tussle happened. There were no chunks of skin or a bunny tornado, but it was bad. For the first three weeks we had them, Bombur was a little humper. He would hump Asriel at least 4-5 times a night. Asriel would just sit in a corner and take it or he would run and Bombur would chase. We were ignorant and thought this chasing thing was cute, and we’d stop Bombur after a few seconds of humping anyways. One night Asriel’s hormones had kicked in. I knew because he started chinning every thing, and he was especially sassy. That night I was about to go to bed, and I stood in the living room doorway watching them in their pen. Bombur mounted Asriel, but Asriel seemed different. Before I could tell Bombur to stop, Asriel has whirled himself around and pounced on Bombur. Next thing I knew the two of them were on their sides kicking at each other. My husband had to go break it up, and was bit hard enough to draw blood. There was so much fur inside the pen, and Bombur had gotten nicked a tad on his belly. They have been separated ever since.

As Bam said, we don’t tell you these to scare you. We tell them out of experience so that you don’t have to go through it. And believe me, watching bunnies fight is terrifying.

[Belleloves]

Wow i didnt know chasing was bad :/

As a newbie rabbit owner i really read lots of articles and sites about their behaviours and all, and mostly said chasing were fine if they dont fight. But now i’ll just listen to real bunny owners experience like you guys!

And yes, i have them seperated after the short meeting, and they are perfectly ok now! Everyone is eating well, and drinking well. I placed their cage near to each other (but far enough so that they cant touch each other), and they seem to know that their friend is nearby. All ends well for now i guess!

About removing the pellets, i think its going to be really difficult because its their favourite. And they are really really picky eaters, but i guess it was my fault again….

When i just had them, i gave them unlimited pellets ,”soft baby” hay and some alfalfa (seen from rabbit.org), but they ended up only wanting to eat pellets and alfafa, which led to super milky urine. I had no choice but to slowly reducing the amount of pellets and alfalfa because i heard they could get hook onto it and not eat hay when they grow old, and also that milky urine is because of too much calcium from pellets and alfalfa. But after reducing the amount, they started eating more hay!

Anyway, since we’re at this topic, any advice on their picky diet? I started feeding them timothy hay at around week 13, and have stopped alfalfa at week 15. But they are really picky with the timothy hay (i feed them oxbow’s), always choosing a certain strand. They will then leave the rest in the bowl untouched and even if i refuse to give them new hay until they finish it, they would rather choose not eat or decide to pee in the bowl.

Is it possible that they just dont like timothy hay? I read a post on a picky bunny too and they said to try different types of hay! I am currently thinking of trying orchard hay, would that be a good option?

[Deleted User]

I’d say still give them at least 1/2 cup of pellets a day, just to make sure they are getting the proper nutrients. My boys were never on alfalfa. They were fed timothy right as babies. Currently I give them the Oxbow timothy+orchard blend which they really love. They prefer the orchard hay the most by far. If they hear the bag open to top them up they go insane. I’d definitely try different types of hay. A lot of buns like orchard and oat, so those are good places to start. You can also order dried grass from Readigrass too, as a lot of owners on here say their buns love the stuff. To encourage hay, you can sprinkle dried herbs and flowers on it to entice them to eat it. I bought my boys Oxbow botanical hay which has lemon, lavender, and chamomile and they seemed to really love it. They’re also old enough now that you can feed them greens. Start out slowly though because you’ll need to asses their poos in case of tummy trouble. Start with something easy like romaine for a few days, then introduce something new like parsley or butter lettuce. Watch their poos to see if they are runny, if they are then stop with the greens.

Something else to consider for encouraging hay eating, is to expand the length of time between non-hay feedings. A good rule of thumb is to give non-hay items every 12 hours that way they have nothing to eat for so long except hay. If they’re hungry enough they’ll eat it. So feed like 1/4 cup pellets at like 8am, and then another 1/4 cup of pellets at 8pm with some greens as well. They’ll be forced to eat the hay throughout the day when they’re hungry.

[Belleloves]

I see! I’ll give the orchard+timothy mix a try and hope it works!

I have introduced several greens to them but they will only eat romaine. Spikey just hates greens and refuses to eat them, just like a kid ?

Thanks for the advice A&B!! And everyone on this thread

[Author]

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