Stuck in Neutral Territory

[thelordsofhoppington]

Ok, here goes.

I have 2 neutered males, Percy (1 year) and Monty (1 1/2 years). I will admit that I messed up in the beginning of trying to bond them by rushing, and not waiting until Percy was neutered to start introducing them. I thought they would be ok because Monty is generally very tolerant/submissive. Percy started off doing normal un-neutered male behaviors, humping, spraying, in general being obnoxious. Monty mostly tolerated it, but they did get into some fights and Monty is holding a grudge. I did stop all introductions/bonding attempts for 4 weeks after getting Percy neutered, but apparently that wasn’t long enough for Monty to forget.

It;s been a rocky road, but I have managed to get them to the point where I can put them in neutral territory (I’ve been using my balcony) and with close supervision they have co-habitated for up to 5 hours without any major fights. Monty still nips at Percy if Percy gets in his face, but he will also sometimes consent to grooming Percy. Percy has also gotten better at listening and backing off when Monty says no.The issue is Percy will never reciprocate the grooming. I have tried banana/apple on the nose, face smooshing, sometimes if I rub Percy’s ears right he will start grooming himself and I thought maybe I could trick him into grooming Monty if they were close by but that didn’t work either. He also gets mad when Monty gets tired of grooming him, and will nip Monty trying to get more grooming, this obviously does not make Monty happy.

I guess my question is I don;t know how to get out of neutral territory purgatory. I know most people will say just be patient, but I’ve been working on this bond for 3 months now, and I’m starting to lose my mind. I can’t keep doing 3-5 hour sessions on the balcony every single day. Bunny bonding is literally taking up all of my free time outside of work hours. I take them for a car-ride and then out to the balcony literally as soon as I get home from work every single day. Right now it’s my weekend, so I spent 5 hours yesterday and probably another 4-5 hours just sitting with them today. I can’t keep going like this. Does anyone have any tricks for moving past grudging tolerance into acceptance? I feel like I’ve tried everything. Cars rides, smooshing, banana on the nose, bathtubs….I really don’t want to have to start all over.

I guess I could just use some advice or encouragement.

[DanaNM]

Sometimes when stuck a change of location can really help, such as a pen set up at a friends house or outside somewhere. It can also help to have a neutral person observe them to see what their dynamic is like and offer some tips. Is there a rabbit rescue near you that you could consult?

It does sound like you have made good progress, and often things can seem to be really stuck, then all of the sudden something clicks and things improve a lot.

Have you been doing pre-bonding cage swaps and all of that?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[thelordsofhoppington]

I have been doing litterbox swaps every day, or every other day. Cage swapping is slightly less practical, as the bunnies have different water bottle and hay rack preferences, so it basically requires me to rearrange the whole cage, so I only do that about once a week. They don’t seem to have any negative reactions to that or the litterbox swapping at all, though. Yesterday they both used the same litterbox (not at the same time) while we were out on the balcony without any problems, so I don’t think that is an issue. They seem to be generally ok with each-other’s smells. I’ve tried the stuffed animal swapping as well, neither of them really reacted to it at all.

I did try moving locations the other day to an X Pen inside the house, because it would be easier for me to keep an eye on them that way, but I must not have done a good enough job “disguising” it, or it may have been too small of a space for them because they just started fighting almost immediately, so we’re definitely not ready for that step yet. They seem to do better in either a space that’s “too small” to fight in, like the crate I take them in car with, or one that’s big enough so Monty can get away. He likes to have his own space. I just would really like to get Percy to groom Monty even a little because I feel like that would really help ease some tension, but he is being extremely stubborn on that point.

[Dee]

Have you tried putting banana baby food on Monty’s head? That has done the trick for my bunnies in the past, although I never managed to bond them lol.

Sorry, missed the part where you mentioned having tried that! If it was just on the nose, though, I would put it on the top of the head and base of ears. That is a safe area for a bunny to start grooming because its not too close to the teeth.

[thelordsofhoppington]

Yeah, I have tried both banana and apple sauce. It works to get Monty to groom Percy, but not vice-versa. Poor Monty just ends up with sticky fur, and then I have to clean him and he’s not happy with me.

I would put it on the top of the head and base of ears

I’ve been avoiding this because they are both lionheads, and their manes are extra long in those areas. I’m pretty sure Monty would just end up with a sticky mane and ears, and again be mad at me when I have to clean him up.

[DanaNM]

Oooh I remember someone with a lion head hid pieces of crasins in their bunnies fur instead! Might be worth a try?

The new location to try needs to be equally or more neutral, and somewhat stressful. A friend’s garage or backyard could work very well.

Mine are the same with space. The are fine in the carrier and in big pens, but intermediate small doesn’t work.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[thelordsofhoppington]

OMG! I’m just imagining hiding tiny pieces of raisins in Monty’s mane. He’s going to hate me. But he basically already does, so whatever works, I guess.

I’m not sure about a new location. I’m hesitant of being outside for escape and safety reasons, plus I live in an apartment so I really don’t have a yard, just this balcony, and I’m not sure any of my friends will let me and my bunnies hang out at their place for 6-8 hours. I do have a different bathroom that they’ve both never been in before. I may try that, but I don’t think it will be “stressful” enough. I think I will just try sticking it out and keep doing what I’ve been doing, and hope something clicks. Preferably soon. Before I lose my sanity. And I may try the raisins idea….

Thanks for the help guys!

[thelordsofhoppington]

UPDATE: Ok, I tried putting raisins in Monty’s mane, and it kinda worked!

It was a bit of a struggle to get Percy to realize they were there, and a bit more to get Monty to allow Percy to get them, but I smooshed them together and kinda tried to show Percy where the raisins were, and he figured it out eventually. He wasn’t interested in more grooming once the raisins were gone, but it’s a start. And it could be my imagination, but I feel like Monty was a bit more relaxed after that.

Monty did start to get territorial over the litter box today, but then later he let Percy get in and use it without any issues. We spent 7.5 hours on the balcony today. But I have to go back to work tomorrow, so I guess we will be doing shorter sessions for the rest of the week. Hopefully they will continue to go smoothly, and maybe next week we can move inside….

[DanaNM]

haha awesome! I know it’s rough to be patient (i’m on month three with my current bond too, and I actually feel like it’s been going relatively smoothly), but it does sound like yours will get there.

All it takes is one good date for things to start clicking with them, so it can feel like nothing is happening and then all of the sudden they are buddies. Keep doing anything that makes them more relaxed (like smooshing). If the litter box causes disputes, take it out.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[thelordsofhoppington]

Thanks! I read through your bonding journal, and it made me feel a bit better about how mine are going. For some reason I was just really convinced that they were going to be BFF’s right away. I thought I had done my research about how to properly do bonding, but looking back I realize I was woefully misinformed about how time-consuming and difficult this was going to be.

I also wish I had a shelter like you have been taking yours to. I’m assuming you have some sort of relationship with the people at your shelter, either from adopting from there or being there before? I don’t think the shelter here would just let me walk in with my bunnies and use their space for bonding…unless this is a much more common thing than I realize?

[DanaNM]

Honestly I thought mine would be fast too, since they had a really great first date, but it’s so hard to predict how long things will take, even when you have experience with bonding. Many of the guides on bonding don’t give too much info on how long things take, I think mostly because the amounts of time can vary a ton depending on the bunnies. It’s very common to have ups and downs, and lots of two steps forward one step back type situations. It also doesn’t hurt to take a day or two off for your own sanity.

It wouldn’t hurt to ask your shelter! They might not let you bring them in, but you never know… And if not they might be able to provide some help and advice.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[thelordsofhoppington]

Well, I guess I’m going to make this my bonding journal. Maybe that will help me keep track of things and see when we’re making progress.

I’ve been mostly staying the course and continued having dates on the balcony for the past 2 weeks, since that’s the only thing that seems to be working. I did try one night closing off the kitchen (which neither of them really spends time in) and putting down an unfamiliar blanket on the floor hoping to “disguise” where they were, but that went terribly. Percy sprayed at least 4 times all over Monty (and my cabinets!) and they were fighting more than usual. So I decided to just stick with the balcony. I haven’t been able to do any more “marathon” sessions, but we do at least 2-3 hours almost every day. We have had a couple simultaneous flops, and one day they both sat in a corner together butt-to-butt for about 10 minutes with no squabbles. I have put raisins (or apple chips) in Monty’s mane a couple times to get Percy to groom, but he still won’t do any grooming without treats there.

Lately Percy has been marking and spraying more out on the balcony, which he didn’t use to do, so I decided it might be time for another change in scenery. It’s my weekend, so I’m currently trying to go for a longer session in a bathroom neither of them has ever been in before. I took them for a long car ride first, and let them into the bathroom that I had set up with a whole bunch of toys and treats. So far both have been doing pretty well, hopping around and exploring. Percy pee’d in the shower (at least it’s easy to clean) but he hasn’t sprayed anything yet. Monty claimed a box as his own and wasn’t letting Percy in it, so I flipped it over. Right now Monty is grooming Percy and they seem to be doing alright, so I guess we’ll see how long they can keep it up. I may turn this into a marathon if they continue to behave.

[thelordsofhoppington]

We’ve been together for 6 hours now, and I can’t decide if I want to continue and marathon them, or call it a day. They have been doing very well, although mostly ignoring each other. Monty chased Percy away from his corner a couple times, but then they did both flop down facing each other. I guess my main question is, If I marathon them in the bathroom, is it even worth it? Because then I will just have to marathon them again once we move them to the X-Pen/cage setup. I’m planning to keep them in an X-Pen with a crate attached to it for a couple days as the final step, to make sure they can share a house. So will marathoning them in the bathroom this weekend be a positive step forward to them living together in harmony, or a waste of time? Or should I just move them to the X-Pen set-up and continue the marathon from there, without separating them? I will admit I’m a bit tired of sitting in the bathroom after 6 hours…and I can’t sleep in the bathroom. It is attached to our bedroom, but I’m not sure if I would wake up if a fight started.

[thelordsofhoppington]

Ugh I’m so upset. We spent 12 hours together all day yesterday. They were doing really well, I didn’t have to break up any fights. Monty was doing the most flopping I’ve ever seen him do….ever. So I decided to just keep them in the bathroom overnight, since it seemed to be going well. And I cleaned out, thoroughly scrubbed, and moved one of their crates into the bedroom because I was going to try to move them into that with an X-pen attached to it so I could have my bathroom back  and see if they could start living in the same cage after spending a full 24 hours together. But…an hour after trying to go to sleep I heard fighting and had to go break it up. I tried to calm them down and go back to sleep, but it happened again 10 minutes later. This time I walked in and Percy was humping Monty.  He hasn’t done that for weeks. So I called it quits and had to separate them into 1 on each level of their 2 story hutch, because the other crate was already in the bedroom and I wanted it to stay neutral. Then I heard somebody start thumping at 4 am….just thumping about once a minute….So now I’m not sure what I want to do. I can’t do another 12 hour marathon today, I don’t have the heart any more plus I actually have to do stuff. I could put them back in the bathroom for another couple of hours, or I could try the x-pen plus crate setup and see how that goes….or just go back to the balcony. I’m just so disheartened, I thought I could see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[thelordsofhoppington]

Well, I decided to try another tactic yesterday and today, which was probably ill-advised, but I don’t have much to lose right now, so I thought what the hell. We just let them out in the house at the same time. Results were mixed. We started off giving them both treats, and they were both fine with that. They both got along for a couple hours. Monty claimed the 2nd bathroom as his own, and everything was fine basically as long as Percy just left Monty alone. Later in the day my husband said he had to separate them because they were starting to fight. (I had to go to work so he was watching them.) Not bad, really.I really enjoyed having my evening back, and being able to do whatever I wanted/needed without having to take the rabbits for a drive, and then sit watching them for the rest of the night. I do still have them staying in separate levels of the 2 story hutch at night, and switching who goes where each night.

I tried letting them out together again today, and fed them treats as soon as they came out, but they started fighting a lot sooner, Monty was getting territorial about basically everything and just doesn’t want Percy near him, so I had to separate them again. May try this again later in the day when they are more settled, just laying around. If they both just pick a corner to lounge in, they may never even see each other.

I wouldn’t mind having 2 free-roam buns who just tolerate each other. Is this a thing that can be done? Can 2 rabbits just live side by side and tolerate each other’s presence without being fully bonded? 

[DanaNM]

I wouldn’t recommend ever letting them free-roam together until they are bonded. I had two buns that tolerated each other (I actually thought they were bonded, as there was no aggression between them at all), and a bad fight erupted out of nowhere, and injured my girl pretty badly. I can’t imagine what would have happened if I hadn’t been home. You would be better served dividing your place in two with an x-pen and having them be neighbors.

The humping isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and could mean they were finally sorting things out.

It is pretty normal for things to flare up at night, I’ve experienced that with mine too.

I do see positives with your two, but I really think they need a complete change of scenery. Since you have always spent so much time on the balcony, they are probably very familiar with it and have become set in their ways in that space.

I’m at a similar road block with mine, and my plan is to take them to a friend’s house this weekend for a 48 hr marathon session. I am going to use a large space, and am going to try not to intervene unless they are really fighting. If they aren’t very close to bonded after that, I am going to stop trying and keep them as neighbors. I think I will have a good sense as to how it will go after the first 24 hours.

It might be good for you all to take a wee break to rest and de-stress a bit, and ask some friends if you can camp out in their kitchen or garage for a weekend. You can do one final push, then decide to keep them separate if that doesn’t work out.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[thelordsofhoppington]

I agree with you about the change of scenery. That’s why we moved into the bathroom, and it did seem to help. At least they made it up to 12 hours with no fighting. I really should have taken that as a win instead of getting disheartened, but I thought maybe I could see the light at the end of the tunnel and got overly optimistic and impatient again. Also I need to be able to actually use my bathroom….

I have been taking this week off from any sessions together and just doing cage swapping. When you say you try not to intervene unless they are “really fighting” what do you mean? I usually only stop them when they are circling and hair pulling.

I really don’t want 2 separate rabbits, though. I really need this bond to work, so I guess I will just have to keep trying. If I have to totally separate them for a month again and start all over, I guess I will. But maybe I will try another push this weekend or next in the bathroom first.

[DanaNM]

I would allow some fur pulling, but stop the circling.

12 hours with no fighting is really good, so I would keep going with that, since it seemed to work.

And seriously, ask some friends about garage or kitchen space…. it could work wonders.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

Messages