Stormy and Bindi Loo

[LittlePuffyTail]

Stormy is very precious to me and it’s really hard seeing him getting pushed around by Bindi. Last night we had an hour bonding session. The plan was to do a few hours but Bindi was especially bossy last night and after an hour Stormy had had enough. He hunched in the corner and wouldn’t move so I ended the session. Last night Bindi kept chasing Stormy away from the hay (even though there were several hay spots), from the potty and pulling hunks of fur out. When we started bonding work and Bindi acted like this, Stormy would hold his ground, turn around and bite Bindi. Now he just runs away. Often he will come over to me when Bindi is being a bully. I wish he would stand up for himself a bit more.

It bothers me to see Stormy getting bullied. I love that little guy so much and I want him to be happy. Now I’m really starting to question if bonding is the right thing to do. I don’t want Stormy pushed around and unhappy.

What are your thoughts? Do you think that most bunnies would prefer having a bully buddy to no buddy at all?

[PuddleJumper]

Well you know them the best which means your would make the best choice for them. If you decide to stop the bonding maybe you could separate them while they are out for their exercise, but make it where they could still see each other so that he could feel the safety of numbers but not be stressed about being picked on. Oh and maybe switch the areas they are turned out so they could get use to each others scent? I’ve never bonded bunnies before so I might not make sense lol I hope I helped though Give Stormy a nose rub for me! and tell Bindi to BE NICE! lol

[RabbitPam]

“What are your thoughts? Do you think that most bunnies would prefer having a bully buddy to no buddy at all?”

No, I don’t. I think a mature bunny who is being bullied is better off without a buddy, especially having lived his life that way for 9 years. That said, I’m not saying you should give up. But there should be a way to stop the bullying, or it won’t be a bond that works. I’ve always felt fond of Stormy, and I think he needs to be happy in his old age. Bindi is a love too, but don’t feel you are upsetting Stormy if you throw in the towel.

Is there any bonding assistance you can get where you live? I don’t live in CA either, and I am jealous of the bonding experts there who seem to work their magic on difficult pairs in just a couple of weeks. Maybe someone from there can give you more advice here.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I think I will give them a few more sessions and see how that goes. If there is the same amount of bullying/chasing then I might just end it at that. I will be disappointed because they really have come quite far. I really think Bindi would enjoy having a buddy and I will feel bad to end it. But at 7, I don’t want to upset Stormy or have him live his senior years being bullied. He’s used to having things his own way. The boys have their condos side by side, however, so they can still see and smell each other even if I don’t bond them. They get along well as bunny neighbors anyway.

I also really wanted to have at least 2 bunnies bonded to make my life a little easier. It’s extremely difficult and time consuming trying to let them have enough out time separately. I tend to be a bit obsessive and if I’m out I can’t relax or have fun if my bunnies haven’t been out that day.

Bindi had a vet appointment this afternoon (ear check) so I’m going to give him a break for today but tomorrow I will do a 2 hour session and see how that goes. I will update after the session.

No, unfortunately there is no bonding assistance around here. Bunnies are not as popular here as I would like them to be, like in CA. I REALLY wish they were, not just for the bonding but because of all the wonderful resources and fun stuff that takes place there. Bunnies are still more “exotic” here.

[mocha200]

Could you take a video of what they are doing? It would give us more of an idea of whats going on.

[OhMommaButterGrits]

I know the feeling…I hate seeing my big boy Honey bullied by my girly Buns. I am in the process of trying to bond 3 unbonded bunnies myself and it’s hard because when I see that bullying behavoir I just hope I’m not doing more harm than good.

It’s like can’t you guys just love each other? And get along? And then you can all be out with mommy at the same time and she doesn’t have to worry about whose turn it is to get out and making sure you guys all got out for even amounts of time lol???? (sorry that last part was more of my selfish reasons for bonding coming out!)

Anyway keep strong however it turns out!

I am sending you lots and lots of bonding/loving vibes for Bindi and Stormy!

[Monkeybun]

You may have to stress bond them, if he’s bullying too much.

[MimzMum]

Poor Storm. I am wondering if, in the past when this has happened, have you gone directly to Stormy’s aid? If so, Bindi may be exhibiting some jealousy that you are showing Stormy what he perceives as ‘more attention’, and Stormy, like any bullied child, is going to run to you for help to keep the ‘playground bully’ away from him, instead of standing up for himself.
Of course that is me anthropomorphizing them, but it’s the only answer I can think of given how you described the situation.
Either way, I think if I was attempting a bond with an older rabbit, who could sustain some serious damage from an aggressive prospective buddy or mate, I would not pursue it. I have dealt with Pip, Mimz & Fiver being each to their own for roughly 4 years. If it comes to them having to stay that way should they get in one another’s faces, I simply won’t change their living arrangements and will have to go on as we have been.

It’s up to you though, ultimately, what you think Stormy is willing to put up with or what he can withstand without trauma; mental, emotional or physical. I wish it were an easier bond, certainly it would be less stress for all involved. You’re all in my thoughts and prayers. ((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thank you for all the input.

Mocha- I will try to get a short video tonight during bonding time. I’ve never uploaded vids before though so we will have to see how that goes.

MommaButterGrits- Yup. That’s exactly how I feel about my bunnies!

Bunnies are just so frustrating. Why is it so difficult to get along?

Mimz- That’s the way I feel. My bunnies have all been separate for so long and if it stays that way so be it. I just thought my boys might enjoy having a buddy and I really liked the idea of less work/less time involved for me. I often feel guilty that they don’t get enough run time/Momma time as I want them to. Also because my rabbits are in a separate room I don’t spend a lot of time in there during the day (it’s too small to do anything in there) so I just feel they don’t get much time with me even though I try to let them out for 2 hours or so most days.

[jerseygirl]

Bonding is stressful on us too and I think you’re feeling that. Totally natural. My advice is try not get caught up on this particular issue as you are sensitive about this. Try be objective and look over the situation since you’ve been bonding because you’re right, you have progressed well with the boys.

Some things to take note are:
-Is Stormys stress only evident in the sessions after Bindi has been bossing? Are you noticing any negative effects on him generally, outside of bonding sessions?
-Is Stormy stressed when putting himself away in the corner or is this his way of showing Bindi “I’m ignoring you and you’re behaviour towards me”.
-Are they boys showing an interest in one another outside of bonding sessions or is there stress present here too? I recall Jersey and Rumball seemed to individually migrate to my bathroom when they had their separate times out. I always read this as they were curious and perhaps looking for that other bunny despite the sometimes rocky moments during bonding.

What do you do when Bindi begins chasing Stormy off?

 

You may have to stress bond them, if he’s bullying too much.

I agree with MB. If you think this won’t cause adverse effects on Stormy, I think using something like a ride in a box or basket together before a session could help. Nothing too stressful, just something that causes them to seek comfort in one another. You could even try it when the chasing begins. It doesn’t have to be overly stressful. It’s more about removing them from an environment where a behaviour is escalating. Sort of “throwing a spanner in the works” so to speak. So if you pop them in a box, basket, Petzy cube (lol) or even on your lap,  then make it  calming, lots of pets, talking to them and reassurances. It helps you become calm too and they may pick on this. So though it’s called a “stressing technique” it needn’t be overly stressful. It just creates an opportunity for them to positively gravitate toward one another.

 

I am wondering if, in the past when this has happened, have you gone directly to Stormy’s aid? If so, Bindi may be exhibiting some jealousy that you are showing Stormy what he perceives as ‘more attention’, and Stormy, like any bullied child, is going to run to you for help to keep the ‘playground bully’ away from him, instead of standing up for himself.
Of course that is me anthropomorphizing them, but it’s the only answer I can think of given how you described the situation.

I think this is a very valid theory MM! Rabbits are sentinent and it’s very possible Bindis behaviour could stem from something like this. Reading Tates thread about animal communication has been useful to me. It does prompt to think about things from a different perspective.

Sorry for the long post LPT. I don’t want to say “Yay” or “Nay” either way in whether you should continue or not. I think it’s good to give yourself a little break, distance yourself emotionally (but do use your good instincts) and then make a decision. I can certainly see your dilemma but I trust you’ll know what to do. Your approach of taking a small break, doing some more work then assessing it from there sounds very good.
I hope you feel at peace in whatever you decide to do.

[Elrohwen]

I think everyone had great advice and I definitely wouldn’t give up now – you’ve worked so hard and come so far and they’re not doing too badly.

I really agree with Jersey that you should do some light stressing whenever Bindi chases. I did this with Hannah and it was really my best bonding technique. As soon as she started chasing and being a pain I would put them both in the laundry basket, sit on the toilet, and bop them up and down on my knees. It wasn’t too stressful, but it snapped her out of the chasing mode and taught her that chasing makes unpleasant things happen. Now when she chases I just have to say her name loudly or pick up the spray bottle and she stops. I always think it’s like showing them that I’m the top bunny and I won’t tolerate that behavior out of the other bunnies in the group. Haha. Not sure if Hannah sees it this way.

I know how hard it is – Otto is my little baby and I hate when she chases him. After a chase he runs away from me like I’m going to go after him too. At the end of the day they’re best buddies and spend 95% of the time snuggling or hanging out together, so I’ve learned to accept that’s just how their relationship is. I’ve also learned to see patterns and I know Hannah usually does it when she’s super excited, like at feeding time, so I keep an eye on her and put all of the food down at once (and far apart) so she doesn’t think about being territorial. Still, it’s hard and I do wish she’d just leave him alone sometimes, but she loves him so much and so needed a bunny friend.

[jerseygirl]

When Jersey is cranky I usually get pounced at and Rumball cops it too. Her issue isn’t with him but he’s right there and she acts out on him. At first i felt bad for him but he now starts humming and following her round the room and she runs, sometimes faces him then runs again. Then they settle and go and eat. :p Honestly!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thank you all for putting time and effort into giving me all this advice. I feel that I’m not ready to give up yet. I did another session last night but it was the same result: after an hour Stormy just hunched and wouldn’t do anything. I didn’t have any camera batteries so I couldn’t get a video.

-Is Stormys stress only evident in the sessions after Bindi has been bossing? Are you noticing any negative effects on him generally, outside of bonding sessions?

Yes, he only seems stressed after Bindi chases him. Last night I let Stormy out in the living room for some alone time right after bonding and he immediately laid down. I’m not sure if that’s just tiredness or stress. He and Bindi did some binkies while in the “bonding room” though. It was really cute.

-Is Stormy stressed when putting himself away in the corner or is this his way of showing Bindi “I’m ignoring you and you’re behaviour towards me”.

This I’m really not sure about. Either they are totally ignoring each other or Bindi is chasing (which I’m still not convinced whether it’s play or bossiness but Stormy doesn’t like it, either way.)

-Are they boys showing an interest in one another outside of bonding sessions or is there stress present here too?

They live side by side so they are interested in what the other is doing. Stormy has gotten loose a few times and went to sniff Bindi’s cage (there is a gap between the door) and Bindi tried to bite him.

What do you do when Bindi begins chasing Stormy off?

The chasing is usually very brief but at times when he pursues I gently push him away. I’m going to give the laundry basket trick a go tonight.

I just want them to be friends. We’ve been working on this for so long now and they just haven’t warmed up to each other. More or less accepted each other but no affection at all. Is it possible they will never warm up to each other?

My biggest concern is that I bond them and move them in together and Stormy is unhappy. I’m afraid that he will be unhappy and I will be unable to tell or that he’s very unhappy and stressed and I have to break up the bond which might cause Bindi to become upset.

I’m also getting frustrated because this bonding work is terribly time-consuming and just seems to be going on forever.

[Monkeybun]

If his stress is only after he is chased by Bindi, get them into sessions where he can’t be chased. Try the laundry basket, a NIC cube, a box… something small enough where they can’t run and chase.

[MimzMum]

Posted By LittlePuffyTail on 08/01/2011 05:21 AM

They live side by side so they are interested in what the other is doing. Stormy has gotten loose a few times and went to sniff Bindi’s cage (there is a gap between the door) and Bindi tried to bite him.

                This is something that if it doesn’t stop, or it becomes more frequent, that I would back off from. Too easy for an older Stormy to get injured by a younger, quicker and obviously angrier Bindi. But that’s just me.

I just want them to be friends. We’ve been working on this for so long now and they just haven’t warmed up to each other. More or less accepted each other but no affection at all. Is it possible they will never warm up to each other?
                       

                    I’m sure I’ve asked this before but, is there no chance of eventually adding Olivia to the mix? Perhaps the offset of the odd bun (not saying she’s odd, just that she’s the third one…lol) might help balance the relationship of the boys?

My biggest concern is that I bond them and move them in together and Stormy is unhappy. I’m afraid that he will be unhappy and I will be unable to tell or that he’s very unhappy and stressed and I have to break up the bond which might cause Bindi to become upset.

I’m also getting frustrated because this bonding work is terribly time-consuming and just seems to be going on forever.

                      That’s understandable. We’ve had quite a few folks on the board have some relatively easy bonds of late (giving you all the evil eye…lol) and it’s so disparaging when it doesn’t work that way for us.

                       Reading your posts, the similarities between our bunnies, their current living conditions and the way we want to improve/change them continue with mind-boggling consistency. I am just about ready to being my own bonding challenge, as soon as I can figure out what is now going on with Pip and her ‘stinky’ problem. I would be thrilled to see us both get our trios together soon.

                       But if for some reason it doesn’t work out as either of us are expecting, well, at least we tried and we both want to do what is best for our little fuzzbutts.

                     

 

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thanks for your reply, Mimz. Yes, it still astounds me too…our similarities.

When I first began bonding work with my buns the plan was ambitious: I was hoping for a trio. But I did some thinking and I strongly feel that Olivia is better off as a single bun. She is super nervous and insanely territorial. I really think trying to bond her would put her and the boys over the edge and result in at least one bun getting injured.. She’s been either terrified and shaking or super aggressive in any situation I’ve tried (sitting them side by side mostly). Seeing as though the boys are taking so very long to warm up to each other I think adding Olivia will just complicate and confuse them even more.

I would be happy with only my boys bonded. That way I could possibly work something out like the boys get the rabbit room free-range and Olivia gets the living room free-range. That would be perfect for us all I think.

I wasn’t able to do any work with the boys yesterday as we were outside building our storage shed till like 10. You know one of those projects that takes like 5 hours longer than planned?

[jerseygirl]

LPT, I’ve seen you’ve mentioned a few times that Bindi is going through a big moult. If he’s being a bit of a pain, it could be because of this… I remember considering taking a break in bonding J&R when she began to moult. You know how they can get a bit cranky then? I think I did continue on but you certainly do hit some speed bumps when bonding. I recall getting so lost on where they were at and where to go next. It can get consuming but it’s not forever.

[Lintini]

Heya LPT

Seriously for my trio I moved the stink bink bros into the aviary and plunked Velvet in and took a seat and watched. They were so interested and startled at the same time of their new surroundings and new toys/hide boxes/huge piles of hay they could really care less of the new lady that was in the room. My poor boyfriend wondered where I had gone for about 4 days as I made sure in all my free time that everything was good as gold.

Do you have anywhere like this where you can make it so strange that they wouldn’t pester eachother? It was weird for me tho…no one even humped eachother they were just like heeeeeeeeeey a cool bunny miss is in here now!! aweeeeesooooooooome. nom nom nom nom more hay plzzz!

best wishes, I love your buns and hope everything works out!! *gives noogie to Bindi*

[LittlePuffyTail]

Jersey- I don’t understand why buns get so stressed out/cranky when they are molting. It’s like bunny PMS. I can understand being cranky right after being groomed but I never do bonding then.

Lintini- That’s sort of the situation with the “toy room” where I’m doing my sessions. I put all kinds of strange stuff in there to climb on and stuff. Bindi’s having fun knocking all Ricky’s toys off the lower shelves and then chinning them. That makes Daddy nervous.

So, basically, is the plan to wait until they are best buds before moving to semi-neutral?

[Lintini]

Indy gets really moody when he’s shedding, no one else gets as goosie like he does. If Bindi is anything like Indy during a molt, I could see there being issues with bonding since it’s bunny pms!

[MimzMum]

*sigh* I don’t get the shed moodiness, but I do. I have REALLY long hair right now that is falling out all over the damn place. I’m ready to rip my own skull off…so in a way, I relate.

I think for bunnies, shedding fur is a hormonal thing. Which would explain everything.

I’ll pass on the ‘best buds’ question because I am NO ONE to talk about bonding clues. I don’t have any. I wish Petzy was here.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I wish Petzy was here.

Me too. I just wish she would stop in to tell how she and the bunnies are making out.

But I’m very appreciative of all of your help.

[Monkeybun]

I waited to move the girls to the living room until they got along mostly int he kitchen. SO yeah, wait until they can tolerate each other before moving to a more familiar place.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I took a few day’s break with the boys because I do think that Bindi is stressed due to his molt. Our last session resulted in him chasing Storm who then bit me when I tried to separate them. Bindi is almost done the big part of his shed.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Did an hour session last night. Bindi’s pretty much done his big shed. They completely ignored each other the entire time. Going to let them spend most of the evening together tonight and see how that goes.

[MimzMum]

Ignoring is good. ^_^ I like that almost as much as snorgling.

(((((((((((good bunny ignoring vibes)))))))))))))))))))

[LittlePuffyTail]

So they were constantly ignoring each other in the toy room (pics to come soon) so we’ve moved to the kitchen which is a bit smaller. They are doing well. No aggression but still ignoring each other. How do I initiate friendship? Frustrating. They don’t seem to mind each other but they just avoid each other completely.

[Elrohwen]

I don’t think there’s anything you can do other than keep putting them together for longer and longer periods of time so that they have to get used to each other. I was into 4 hour sessions in the hallway before I saw any snuggling.

[LittlePuffyTail]

My latest problem with the boys is that they are spending more time together (we’re in the kitchen now which is a bit smaller) but the only thing they do together is lay down with their faces smooshed together. They don’t do anything else together and there still hasn’t been any grooming. The last 2 days, immediately after snuggling, Bindi grabs a huge hunk of fur off Stormy’s rump (thankfully Stormy has very thick fur so there hasn’t been any injuries) and Stormy takes off. I feel so bad for the little guy.

Why is Bindi doing this? They seem all snuggly and lovey and then he snaps. It’s really adding to Stormy’s mistrust of Bindi. Most of the time when Bindi approaches, Stormy stomps hard and runs away. Advice needed!

Bindi has a vet appointment Friday evening. Should I bring Stormy a long to help the trust issue?

[mocha200]

When their faces are smooshed together like that, it means they want to be groomed.Maybe Bindi is getting upset that stormy isn’t grooming him. Have you tried smearing banana on their heads to encourage grooming?

[LittlePuffyTail]

My boys are doing quite well but I’m really struggling to find the time to work with them more than a couple of hours each time. I’m so busy lately. It’s frustrating!

[Elrohwen]

Yep, sounds like they’re in a groom-off. You can try the various techniques to get them to groom, or just wait them out. Mine were slow starters, but they got it eventually.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Making progress…I tried them last night in the “semi-neutral” living room (which is where all the buns have out-time) and they did really well for an hour. No scuffles. I was so glad.

[jerseygirl]

Fantastic! Don’t worry about time you’re able to put into it at the moment. As long as there aren’t week long gaps between sessions, you should be good. Just go slow and steady.
Even if it’s short interactions (10 mins even) daily or every couple days will help maintain things until you’re able to go back to longer sessions.

[LittlePuffyTail]

The situation I’m currently in is that my boys are doing really well. I feel comfortable leaving them alone in the living room for a few minutes at a time. They pretty much just ignore each other. The other day they seemed to be play chasing each other and binkying. Still no grooming or signs of affection. I’ve even let them both into each condo for a few minutes (Stormy was not happy about Bindi in his house with him, but there were no fights). I’m to the point where I want to “cement” in the hopes that they become lovey after they move in together.

I’m not working right now, but I’m so busy with the wedding coming up on the 22nd that I have to keep pushing the cementing further. Also, we will be staying in a hotel that night so my bunnies will be alone and I’m worried about, if I do move them in together, they will fight and no one will be home. What do you think? Should I just wait until after the wedding for any cementing? Right now they are getting all of their out-time together which is like an hour in the a.m. and p.m. This bonding has been going on forever.

Also, I’m wondering what I’m going to do to house them. Bindi needs blankets and furry mats in his condo because of his sore hock problems but Stormy hates blankets and uses shredded paper as his bedding. They currently have two identically sized condos, side by side. What should I do to rehouse them? Any ideas appreciated.

[Sarita]

I would wait until after your wedding – focus on your wedding and don’t worry about the boys. Keep doing what your doing then cement them after the wedding when you can focus on that more. Your wedding is a once in a lifetime event and it’s pretty darn important so just enjoy your time planning and focusing on that.

Give them the same set up they have – half and half and they will figure it for themselves what works for them and make themselves comfortable.

I have a pair that never grooms or rarely grooms each other although they do sit side by side – not all pairs behave the same and that doesn’t mean they hate each other.

[Elrohwen]

I agree completely with Sarita. Just focus on your wedding and do what you’re doing.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thanks, ladies.

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