Stopped Eatting Pellets-Advice?

[Preston Cooper]

Last weeek my girl bun had started to slow down on her pellet and hay intake.  She was still eating her veges with enthusiasm, but this was unlike her as normally she woofs down all her food and  I have had to ration her pellets to 1/4 cup daily.

I took her to the vet, exotic ASAP.  Her teeth were checked.  I was told she had 2 cheek teeth that were pointy-but not yet hitting her tongue.  We had them filed down (under anesthesia).  And  by the next day she was practically back to her normal self.  Now its a week later and she is literally starting to reject her pellets and eating less hay again.  If I hand feed her she will eat a little of these foods.  She continues to eat the soft hay (orchard) and veges, but I am nervous.  The next step would be a blood panel, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts, suggestions or experience with this type of behavior?  If she were getting sick, I would think she would decrease eatingall her food,  not just selectively.  Could she be tired of the pellets?  Moody?  The day this started, I was out of the house longer then usual and did not get home till late.  Could she still be shook up over the proceedure last week?

Thanks…!

 

[jerseygirl]

One thing may be that she’s now experiencing some pain after the filing. So she may be sensitive to the harder foods. Were given pain med to give at home after her teeth were done? I have heard baby aspirin can be given to rabbits but I am not certain and do not know dosages. Hopefully one of the forum leaders can give advice with that. I would suggest her teeth issues may need to be investigated further if she continues to avoid hay.

Another thing is the hay season. Sometimes the rabbits can go off hay when it’s out of season. Pellets can also vary.  I once bought some that smelt really different. On asking, I was told that the batch was made from hay that had been in storage so that caused the variation. Some rabbits can be fussy about these changes. Perhaps you could buy a small bag of fresh pellets and hay, even a different variety hay, and try her with that.

[Preston Cooper]

Hi and thanks for the suggestions and thoughts. The vet who is considered an expert exotic did not feel it was necessary to give her any pain meds as there was no injection given in the mouth. (This was her reasoning).  I was concerned she might have pain, but after a day she was back to normal eating. 

She gets 4-5 variety’s of hay given together in her hay manger.  The pellets are Ox-bow Basic Bunny and they have been eating from this bag for a while now, but you never know, maybe they are not as fresh as they could be.   My other rabbit does not seem to mind (!).

Thanks again for the suggestions.

MC

[RabbitPam]

It does sound like it’s still an issue with her teeth, though jersey may be right in that it’s residual sensitivity to the procedure.
First, I’d recommend you call your vet to let her know, because it could be a more involved problem with those teeth. You can ask if you should give her some pain meds now, or bring her in for a follow up, and let us know what she says.

Meanwhile, instead of an assortment of hays, try selecting out just the softer ones. I know that Orchard Grass is very soft, and you can order Timothy Hay that is called Second or Third cut, which is softer as well and recommended to bunnies with chronic teeth issues. This may be something she has all her life, so you can talk to your vet about long term care as well. If you feel it’s not helping, or just want a second opinion, we can help you find another exotic vet in your area that you can consult.

If she still avoids the pellets (and you’re using the best in my opinion so I’d stick to that brand. Keep it simple.), you can make a pellet slushie. Just add some water and grind them into a mush – she may eat it directly or you may eventually need to give it to her via syringe into her mouth. But a syringe would be only after consulting with the vet about the true cause. Meanwhile, soften the pellets for her and see if she laps it up.

When a bunny is offered treats or greens, many will fill up on those and ignore the hay and pellets as second choice. See if she’s ignoring them for the tasty, softer options.

[Sarita]

I have a rabbit with dental problems – molars like your rabbit and honestly it has taken me over 6 months to get this under control. It is possible that even in 2 weeks she may need her molars filed again – some rabbits are just much more sensitive to this than others. Sometimes it can take vigilance with dental problems to get them under control.

I would ask the vet to look at her teeth again. The vet may have to put her back under anesthesia to get a better look too.

I always do metacam after a dental trim for a few days just in case there is any tenderness too.

I would recommend a blood panel as well if she seems like she is going to have ongoing dental problems as well just to be on the safe side.

Also because a rabbit is ill does not mean that they will stop eating everything – they may not stop eating at all or they may pick and choose their food.

[jerseygirl]

I’m curious…What is a blood panel and how does it relate to dental issues?

[KatnipCrzy]

Jerseygirl- I am sure that Sarita was refering to bloodwork like a general health profile (checks liver, kidney and other other values) and possibly a CBC (depending on what the vet recommends).  The reason for doing a blood panel is to make sure the rabbits kidneys and liver and other organs are healthy enough to recover from anesthetic.  A poor report on bloodwork would indicate the bunny was a poor candidate for anesthesia- but there are things that could be done depending on what is wrong to improve the bunnies chance of recovery from anesthesia- like SQ fluids, medications, different anesthetic used, etc.

EDIT: I should specify that I mean there are sometimes treatments or meds that can be used to get an animals system healthier BEFORE any anesthetic procedure- and bloodwork would indicate if that needs to be done or not.

[RabbitPam]

Katnip & Sarita,
If the bloodwork came back showing a risk for anesthesia, wouldn’t it mean that there’s another problem to be investigated as well? Sounds like you bring in the bunny for a dental issue and discover weak kidney function for example. I would expect the vet to address the issue with the kidney that showed up on the test. Would they go ahead and do the teeth, then get to work treating the kidney?
Thanks, P.

[KatnipCrzy]

Rabbitpam-

  Depending on the rabbits health and how elevated the kidney values were would determine course of treatment.  If the bunny can not/ will not eat at all that would probably have to be considered.  But there are treatments like antibiotics and fluids that can help make the organs healthier.  And depending on the dental issue- if there is actual dental disease like an infection- that bacteria can turn into bacteria that does not need oxygen and it can travel thru the bloodstream and affect other organs. 

It is better to know if there is any degree of kidney impairment- because other options are available to make things safer- hospitalizing on IV fluids the day before, the day of and the day after helps keep the organ systems flushed and healthier and recovering from anesthesia is better.  And different anesthesias can be used that are shorter acting and leaving the system quicker- both injectable anesthesia and gas anesthesia.  And sometimes giving meds a couple a day before and following anesthesia can improve kidney (or other organ health)- antibiotics, SQ fluids or other supplements.

Why not do all of these things regardless of what the bloodwork shows?  Cost mainly.  And the stress of extra hospitalization that may not be needed.

It  is way better to know if a rabbit has a health problem before anesthesia than to discover afterwards that they have an underlying problem that was aggravated by anesthesia.

[Preston Cooper]

Hello and thanks for all of the responses.

I took Issy back to the vet this past Tuesday and asked that her teeth be looked at again and to blood panal done.

The vet did so, and informed me that a few of her cheek teeth on one side were still pointy.  Apparently the vet did not get them all when drilling the teeth during our last visit.  I was a bit shocked.  She is an expert exotic at a top hospital, but I appreciated the honesty.  The vet  wanted to sedate her again and file these teeth down.  I agreed, but was pretty upset & worried that she had to be put under again and so soon.  Fortunately she got through it and this time afterwards the vet gave her an injection of metacam.  (I would have preferred doing this orally, but was not asked.)

Right now its too soon for me to tell if this has resolved her the issue and I am waiting to hear back on the  blood tests. 

FYI, Issy was sedated via an injection followed by a reverse injection along with oxygen therapy, which I was told is a standard routine for this kind of anesthesia.  This is new to me, as I am used to their being given isoflorine (gas) in the past.

As far as eating, I was told she should be given more stalky greens so as to get her back teeth more active.  She gets 6-7 different greens 2x daily, but the vet said these all have soft stems except the dandeloin.  She suggested collard greens and swiss chard and mustard greens.  From experience I have found really dark green veges like kale and spinach have upset my buns digestion but have not tried these foods. Does anyone feed theses vegs to their buns?  Any other thick stemmed suggestions.  (I am trying to avoid a high calcium count as they already eat & love dandelion).

Thanks so much. 

MC

 

 

[Sarita]

Hopefully that was the problem. I would not worry terribly that she missed that either – it took us awhile to figure out how much each time to trim my rabbit Pepe’s teeth – apparently his teeth are more rigid than most rabbit’s teeth too according to my vet. I think sometimes it takes awhile to get the teeth trims right until the vet has seen the rabbit and done the trims a few times. I do understand too about your concern with the anesthesia – I worry about that as well. But once you get the blood work back and all looks well that should hopefully ease your mind. I think every vet has a different protocol as well as to what works best for each procedure and the anesthesia they use.

My rabbits have loved collard greens in the past when I’ve gotten those for them – they generally avoided the huge stem in the middle and just ate the softer leaf part but that seems pretty stemmy (short stems) to me. I would suggest I guess just to start them out as with any vegetable in small portions to see how they do. The only reason I don’t feed these is because I have many rabbits and what I can get in large quantities and inexpensively are not the kale, collard greens, swiss chard, etc…or else I would certainly love to include these in my rabbit’s diet.

As for the calcium I would not worry too much about that if they don’t have issues with this – I have to wonder anyway if perhaps Issy might benefit from a little more calcium due to his dental problems.

Not sure what type of hay you use and if your rabbits are big hay eaters but perhaps even a 1st cutting timothy hay might help since it’s very stalky.

[BinkyBunny]

Regarding the anesthesia – I think with shorter procedures like dental work the injection can be used.  The gas is used though for longer surgical procedures. I wonder if injection has less “hang-over” or is less complicated (like with gas, my understanding is it’s common to give a sedative even before the gas where with the injection they may not need to do that.

I found a great article that does discuss the differences of general anethesia (gas vs injection) http://www.hrschicago.org/anesthesia1.html (scroll down to general anethesia)

Though I do undertstand the frustration and feeling a bit less confident in your vet – I do know that even the best of vets can miss things sometimes. So unless this is a common occurance, I wouldn’t be too worried.

Also regarding the injection of pain meds – we found that if you do an injection right (in the scruff of the rabbits neck) it can actually be less stressful than oral meds. A vet tech once told me that there are less nerves in the skin on the back of the rabbit’s neck. (maybe nature’s way to be kind to prey animal).  And I can tell you that when I had to give injections to one of my bunnies this way, she didn’t even seem to notice. It was alot less stressful than trying to get meds down orally.  So that may have been the reason they chose to do it this way.

[Preston Cooper]

Thanks again for the responses.

I was told her blood work came back normal. I am waiting to receive a copy in the mail.

Issy is mostly only eating her pellets over night still -not duirng the day and with enthusiasm as she used to. It also seems like she is eating a little less then before the last proceedure. But since all appears ok based on her last vet visit & tests, I am going to give it time. Maybe her mouth is still a little sore, since she had 2 proceedures 1 1/2 weeks apart. ? She did not get any pain med after the injection.

And yes, you are right, the vet may have been trying to lessen the stress issue by giving an injection, or maybe because she was still groggy- it was right after the proceedure, she thought this would be safer.

And yes, I will get some 1st cut Timothy. Thanks for raising this. I give about 4 different types of hay to them, that vary in texture but don’t have this.

I really appreciate the feedback.

The only other question I have been wondering lately is if she could be older then I thought. I adopted her from Animal Control. We thought maybe she was 2 years old but there was no info on her. Whoever surrendered her did not check her in, instead she was left in a travel case on their doorstep. Would it be possible if she is a bit older that her eating habits from age are beginning to change?

Any thoughts about this? I have not had aging rabbits yet, but know from other animals that their metabollism begins to change and so does their food needs over time.

Thanks again.

PS Isssy loves the willow tunnels which I order from Binky Bunny for her. Not only to be carried in but also to chew!

[Preston Cooper]

RE: my last post I want to clarify the injection I am referring to here is for the pain med Metacam, not anesthesia.

Also, I adopted her 2 years ago, which would make her 4 if she was 2 years old then. But I have been wondering if she could be older. Any thoughts on how one could assess this?

Thanks!

[Sarita]

I know it can be hard to gauge the age without some specifics but I think you are right that it is entirely possible she is older than you think. It’s sad that they just left her on the door with no info – they were probably afraid animal control would not take her though.

I do think that as they get older they do seem to eat less (this is just based on my rabbits who are mostly over 7 years old and some do have health issues) but they just don’t seem to be gobble monsters even my younger older ones. I know that you cannot normally look at a rabbit’s teeth (for plaque build up to help determine age) but there are other things I think that you can look at – activity level (possible arthritis or just lower activity level), sometimes their eyes start to get cloudy (possible cataracts), also a possible lack of muscle tone – those are just a few things I can think of that a vet might look at to help determine a range in their age.

I’m in the same boat as you with many of my rabbits – no real idea of age other than they were adults when I got them as strays or from the shelter and how long I have actually had them.

[Preston Cooper]

Thanks for the info on aging. Most appreciated.

Its been a week since Issy’s last dental proceedure and I am relieved to say she seems to be back to her normal self. Begging for pellets in the morning and eating her rationed amount with interest. First cut Timothy Hay was also recommended to me as good for their cheek teeth and I have ordered some from Binky Bunny!

Over the weekend my other bun, a small netherland dwarf started to go into GI stasis, likely from his shedding. He is a meticulous & sometimes obsessive groomer. I have been through this with him before where within hours he goes from totally fine to a hunched up in pain little bunny that stops eating and pooping. I do my best to never be without the equipment and saline for a sub-que injection. Every single time he gest like this, it is over the weekend and usually at night when I have no access to a vet.

After seeing that he would not turn around on his own, I gave him a fluid injection. Thank goodness it worked and is he went back to his normal self. So for the moment it seems I have two happy bunnies….

Best,
MC

[Sarita]

I’m glad that your bunnies are doing well. I think it’s great as well that you can administer sub-q fluids – I think that’s important to know how to do.

[Preston Cooper]

After I wrote my last post I wondered if I had jinxed myself by sharing that both buns were doing well.

Forl I am sorry to say that my little boy literally came down with GI stasis again sometime between 11:00 pm and 4:00 am Friday morning. He went from a happy pooping bunny with tons of energy and a great appetite to growing a hard watermelon in his stomach over the period of 5 hours. One might think it is from a physical obstruction, but I truly doubt this possible as when out of his pen he was in his usual places with nothing new around to create such a risk.

I was at the vets all yesterday. Its a miracle he is still allive but I don’t know how muchl longer he can last. He was on IV fluids and sedated for a a stomach tube inserted so as to try and release the gas. There was only minor sucess from this. Now I guess he feels soar. All the food he ate for dinner the night before seems to be trapped in his upper stomach. There is nothing below. We are trying to give him mobility drugs in hope that it will start moving though. The vet has not wanted me to feed him because the food seems to just sit in his esophagus (as to what she found when using the stomach tube).

But despite all this his eyes seem clear. I know he is watching me and knows whats going on around him. And he can run and hop when motivated despite the extra weight from the distended stomach and sugq fluids.

This is truly a nightmare for me but I am remaining as calm as possible so as to see if there is any chance for it to turn around. I pulled him through terrible pin worms when I rescued him followed by a really bad head tilt last summer. I just can’t believe this happened so incredibly fast. But am beginning to believe (to late) that he must have been borderline dehydrated all along which is why this happened so fast. Despite my giving subq’ on occassion.

In the meantime, my girl Issy,who this post was first about and is in a pen next to his is getting upset. I can see her stress and pray she will be Ok.

Thanks,
MC

[jerseygirl]

What a time you are having! I’m so sorry to hear. (((Healing vibes for your Nethie))) Let’s hope he bounces back once again.

[Sarita]

Oh, I’m so sorry to hear this. Please keep us updated. I can understand your stress and anxiety. Strength vibes to you and healing vibes to Nethie.

[BinkyBunny]

Oh, I am so sorry! Rabbits really have the corner on taking nose dives, but they are also amazing with bounce backs.  It is very stressful, and I am so sorry for what you are going through. Obviously, you are doing everything you can for him. I am sending “be well” vibes to him and “peace and calm” vibes to you.

[MooBunnay]

I am so sorry to hear about this! I hope that he is feeling better soon. I am glad that you are able to help him by getting him to the vet and getting him all of the treatment that he needs. You are doing everything that you can and that is all that a bunny can ask for. I am keeping you and your bunny in my thoughts and I hope to hear good news soon!

[Preston Cooper]

Thank you everyone for sending good wishes and positive vibes to Poe and me.

Poe has thus far been pulling through and I feel as if I a have been witnessing a miracle.
As thankful as I am, I am still very nervous that he is so thin. He was always a very skinny bunny, no matter how much I would feed him and now he looks like a stick. I understand this due to the ordeal he has just been through but I also am panicky if his liver were effected during the time period the vet told me not to feed him… as we feared his stomach would rupture due to the huge distention and its pushing on his lungs.

Any insights regarding this stage of recovery would be appreciated.
As well as any suggestions on how to fatten him up.  
He has been getting Critical care feedings, but now that he has started to eat fresh veges and pellets on his own, I backed off a bit so as to let his normal behavior take over.  He is still slow in eating hay, as he always had been a limited hay eater.

We will be finishing his meds by tomorrow am and so far today I did not give him a sub-q injection as his appetite and pooping were good.

Again, I thank everyone for all their kind thoughts. I hope we pull through this. He is a really one tough little nethie.

Best,
Marcia

[Sarita]

You may want to consider doing bloodwork once he is better – I would hate to put him through that now but that might ease some of your worries.

What about giving him some fresh alfalfa to help put some weight on him. Also some small amounts of rolled oats (you can put some in his pellets).

I’m glad he is getting better. I know how stressful this has been for you.

[Preston Cooper]

Thanks Sarita, your support and suggestions have really helped.
I agree and was thinking about doing a blood test. And yes, I would likely want to wait to see if he can get stronger first.
Also, thanks for the suggestion on fresh Alfalfa. I will try some of this.
As far as rolled oats go, I am not familiar. Would it be best that the rolled oats be gotten from a human health food store?

With Regards,
MC

[MooBunnay]

I’m sorry to hear your bun is still having some problems. I hope that he is feeling better soon! My little girl nethie is playing right now as I am writing, and I can imagine how hard it must be for you to see such a teeny little bunny not feeling well

As far as the rolled oats – I believe the type of oats is those old fashioned rolled oats (as opposed to the quick or instant oats which are not for bunnies). I can usually find these in most grocery stores. I am not sure of how much to feed though, I think it is only a little bit per day though, like maybe a teaspoon or two? I think that some of the other forum leaders may be able to provide you with the correct amount to use.

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