Spayed female hormonal spraying

[puffs-of-fluff]

Hey guys. I’m really hoping for some help because I’m losing my mind

Ethel is a 6.5 year old spayed female (spayed at 5 months) house rabbit. She lives with Gus (6.5yo neutered male) and has done since 8wks old. Ethel has always been the boss, but they are best friends and totally bonded to each other.

In February, Ethel started chasing Gus frequently, mounting and honking. So much so he got a bald patch on his back. I put it down to spring fever but it’s got worse.

She then started peeing outside her tray a few times, and now we are at a point where I’m cleaning up to 12 accidents per day. EVERY DAY. In addition to this, she also flicks urine at Gus (does a little side flick as she runs past him to soak him), is chinning everything and also does this thing where she digs my wooden floors and just urinates as she digs.

I initially tried adding more trays and put hay in the trays. No luck. I restricted her area to a 2×2 pen; she still pees on the floor even when it’s a 30cm journey to the tray. She’s worse when Gus is around (so I think she’s marking), as she does use the tray better when they are separated but still not perfect. They now sleep in separate cages because she harasses him too much in the night and he can’t get away. The first thing she does in the morning when she sees him is mount and chase him. Yet after breakfast they flop next to each other and groom each other (until she pees on him again).

The vet has checked her for UTIs (nothing), done X-ray to check for bladder sludge (nothing), checked her bloods and hormones (perfect). Litter brand hasn’t changed. No new pets or people in the house.

You can smell her before you see her, because she lies in her pee when she’s done it. She’s gross. She is my best little mate and she’s furious at not having the run of the house, but I can’t trust her not to pee. This has been going on for months and I can’t make it stop. It all seems very hormonal to me. I’m considering sending Gus to live with my friend for a few days to see if Ethel improves. But I’m loathe to do it because they are so so bonded. They search for each other when they can’t see each other

Any suggestions? I’m so desperate

[DanaNM]

Hmmmmm that’s very strange and frustrating! Your vet checked all the things I was going to mention with her… Has Gus been checked over? Sometimes when the bond has issues it’s because of a medical issue with the bun being harassed.

If medical issues with Gus are ruled out, I wonder if you might need to do some bonding sessions between them to let them resort things out?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[puffs-of-fluff]

Thanks for the reply. Gus seems to be absolutely perfect. His litter habits are impeccable, he’s happy (does lots of zooms and binkies), eating fine. Vet visually checked him over when he had his vaccinations in May. Said his teeth were perfect and coat was glossy/healthy. I can’t see a reason to get any further tests.

I’ve done an experiment for a few hours tonight and put Gus in the bathroom where Ethel can’t see him. She hasn’t peed outside of the tray once yet. It seems like when she is with him all hell breaks loose. They do flop next to each other and chill for a bit, but if she is on her feet then she is humping him and won’t leave him alone. The spray goes up the walls!

I don’t think they have “unbonded” because they are still so loving to each other and never ever fight. Gus gets frustrated at her chasing but just moves away. He never reacts. And within 30 seconds he moves back to her as he has always been her shadow. Sometimes he will go in my bedroom for some space and she goes crazy looking for him

[puffs-of-fluff]

By that I mean, I’m not sure how I can bond them anymore than they already are? Ethel just gets overexcited.

[DanaNM]

I was thinking something with the bond because you mentioned that she was harassing him a lot at night, plus all the territorial behaviors? Since you’ve ruled out a medical issue, to me those things indicates something is up with the bond. Not really that they have unbonded, but that she is feeling the need to exert dominance.

Routinely separating them might be necessary if you think they might start fighting and he needs a break, but also prob isn’t helping long term.

Can you try some stressing with them? Maybe a car ride together? Or perhaps take them to a completely neutral space for 24-48 hours and see if they calm down?

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[puffs-of-fluff]

Thank you for getting back to me. It does make sense that there is something wrong with the bond. Unfortunately, I’ve already taken them on a car journey to the vets (it’s 30 mins away) and doesn’t change it one bit.

problem is…well, Ethel is the problem 😂. Ethel nearly died when she was 3. She had a severe abscess and osteomyelitis. She’s had part of her jaw bone removed and needs to have depocillin injections for life. Ethel does tend to act like the world revolves around her because she is, essentially, a special needs bunny. She was fussed over A LOT when all this was going down and she’s used to getting attention and being the focus. So she’s always been highly strung with other animals and getting her own way. (Also makes her very difficult to stress because she’s very used to car journeys/vets/handling. Gus is easy to stress, but that’s stressing the wrong bunny!)

But saying that, in 3+ years of that behaviour, I’ve never had this problem with her. So I don’t know where it has come from. The chasing and mounting only used to come out around food. Now it’s all the time (with added urine).

I guess what I’m saying is that she has a little bit of a difficult personality to work with, because it’s her nature to be a diva. But I can’t think of a reason she’s suddenly so desperate to mark everything when he’s about.

However, you might be onto something with the bond, I just don’t know how to fix it. He couldn’t love her anymore if he tried, and she’s not aggressive toward him, just overly excited. (I don’t separate them because I think they will fight: she just doesn’t let him sit down in the cage because she’s mounting him constantly (and he won’t let her) so they run in circles and she’s just like a Catherine wheel of pee all over the place that I have to wake up to in the morning. And he keeps me awake stamping. They are together most of the day and rarely ever fight (if they do gus wins)).

Any ideas how I could improve the bond? Sorry, I feel like I’m saying “it’s not that” every suggestion you make. I’m just trying to make sure it’s coming across that these 2 are in love, but Ethel is like a peeing bull in a china shop.

[DanaNM]

Ahhh, that’s interesting about Ethel. Her medical history and special needs could definitely be contributing. Sometimes it’s hard to have a stable bond when one rabbit has medical issues. I think it might come from that bunny feeling “insecure” and needing to exert dominance because they are somewhat vulnerable. It does seem really odd that the behavior seems to have flared up like this without a trigger though. Are you 100% sure she doesn’t have some underlying medical condition or pain that could be complicating things?

Do you have a super neutral space you could take them to for 24-48 hours? Just to see if they start calming down a bit after some time in a completely new space? That’s the main thing I can think of.

When Ethel requests grooms from Gus, does he groom her? Just curious if he is being submissive in other ways, even if he won’t let her mount.

What do you mean by, “They are together most of the day and rarely ever fight (if they do gus wins))” ?

Are they actually scuffling?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[puffs-of-fluff]

No they aren’t scuffling at all (not for years). It’s only chasing. Gussy absolutely doesn’t allow it and turns his back on her and stamps, and it becomes a challenge for her. He has been in my room allllll day (his choice and she’s not allowed in there atm) and she just gets so so excited to see him. She goes wild.

He is grooming her, but she is very needy. So now that you mention it, he does deny her sometimes and when he does I think that does set her off. She grooms him also, but usually after he has groomed her first. He’s grooming her right now and she’s calm and docile.

They have been apart all day until now and she hasn’t had 1 accident. So I’m pretty sure it’s not medical in that sense. I still wouldn’t bet that there wasn’t an underlying hormonal condition, but my vet is adamant her levels are fine 🤷🏼‍♀️ She said her mouth has no inflammation either. She’s going to try to find a behaviourist for her because like you said, there is no trigger. Yes he is a little less submissive at the moment, but I think he’s just getting a bit annoyed by her.

I think you might be on to something about this bond though. It’s very strange. When she is calm he still adores her, but she seems to be wanting more attention than normal from him. Any ideas how I can improve this? Stop her from getting over excited?

She has never been one to chin anything, and recently, she even chins his poop!

I might try put them in the cage together tonight and just let her harass him into total submission for a few nights. I’ve been so focussed on getting her to be less dominant, maybe I should try to get him to be more submissive (even though he is already very chill and submissive)

I’m convinced the pee is 100% a reaction to him now. And yeah, if she’s not “horny” and hormonal, maybe it is the bond?

[puffs-of-fluff]

Oh and I don’t really have a neutral space because they are allowed everywhere in the house. The bathroom is the room they go in least. I put them in the bathtub today (no water). Ethel was shaking. Then I put Gus in there and she immediately humped him whilst shaking 🙄

[puffs-of-fluff]

Annnnnnd he’s just finished grooming her and she got up, humped him and peed. Give me strength

[DanaNM]

Oh man, that’s so rough!  I’m going to try to dig up some other threads of long term bonds that had issues and see if I can find any similar situations.

I was thinking the medical issue might be triggering her to act up in the bond (sometimes a weird bond issue is the first symptom something is up). But it does sound like you’ve covered all the bases pretty well regarding her health.

It sounds a lot like they are resorting out the dominance hierarchy, but I have no idea what the trigger would have been, except for the vague answer that “sometimes these things happen”. When supervising them, I would try very hard not to influence it in either way, but just ensure that nothing escalates to aggression.

If you have a friend with a garage or a kitchen available, it would be ideal if you could take them there for a 24-48 hour marathon and see if that helps re-cement things. During that time, try not to intervene at all except to break up any scuffling.

If that’s not an option, perhaps you could make a mock neutral space by setting up a pen or two in an area they usually don’t normally hang out. Block their view out of the pen with towels, and lay down a tarp with puppy pee pads on top of it. Big pile of hay in the center, and a water bowl.

If things seem to have settled down with the spraying and chasing after 24 hours, then you are on the right track.

Also, in the meantime, puppy pee pads are your friend, if you haven’t already started using them! Restricting their space and lining everything with pee pads will help your sanity a lot!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[puffs-of-fluff]

Thank you.

i did try puppy pads for a while, but they just dig them, bunch them up and then eat them. I don’t think any friends would have them due to the peeing. The only reason I ever intervene with the chasing is because of the peeing that inevitably follows when he doesn’t let her mount, so it’s a bit of a tricky one.

I will try to get some old office carpet tiles and use them instead. (Hopefully they won’t feel the same as my fluffy rugs and teach her to pee on them more 😩) I will have to put the pen in the hallway and cover the sides so they can’t see where they are. That’s a good idea thank you. And if they don’t pull up the carpet, then maybe a friend would agree to have them for a few days…..

The only thing that doesn’t fit with this is that she digs my floor and just urinates as she is digging.

my vet said she might just be becoming incontinent and can’t hold it when she gets over excited. I really hope this isn’t the case. She never does it on me when she’s jumping around begging for treats, so hopefully that means it’s still a territorial thing not incontinence.

The only possible medical thing I’ve noticed (just in the last few days) is that they are both shaking their ears a bit, like they are itchy. I’ve checked both of them and they are perfect. No wax, no scabs etc. So I think it’s just because they are both having a big summer moult at the moment and prob a few stray hairs getting in. Plus this peeing has been going on since February, way longer than this ear scratching. But if you think there could be a medical reason for this I can’t see, then please do tell!

I’ve put them both in the cage together tonight. I’m in bed and can hear the chasing and stamping as we speak. Trashing the place. However, the chasing only ever ends in bad moods and pee, never biting, so I think it’s safe enough to do. Let’s see if a few nights of that gets it out of her system (poor Gus, he’s soaked when I get him out of the cage in the mornings).

Thanks so much for all your help with this. I really appreciate you taking the time. I will report back in a few days x

[DanaNM]

I am nervous about them chasing in such a confined space unsupervised (especially if you have learned to tune out chasing etc.), if a fight breaks out they won’t have much space to get away from each other. Can you attach a pen to give a bit more space? Or sleep close enough to keep an eye on them?

The digging could also be a territorial thing, so the peeing fits. You can imagine a rabbit on dirt digging a scrape and then peeing to mark the area.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[puffs-of-fluff]

I can hear them from my room (I live in an apartment). They didn’t fight last night, just stamping and chasing.

I’ve put them in the pen together today and she sprayed all over him again. So put her back in the cage for a while. When I let her out, the poops were literally falling out of her butt where she stood when she saw him!

i just can’t handle this level of marking! It’s insane. I wish I knew what was going on in her head

i think the only thing I can do is to see if my vet can find a behaviourist for her. See if they can see something I can’t.

i might be going to my mum’s next weekend so I will take them with me. See if a different environment helps. I doubt it though; she’s only been to my mums a handful of times and my mum even has a dog. She scares the dog and stops him going in the room because she just instantly claims it.

i think she’s a terrorist and can’t be helped 😂

[DanaNM]

I think consulting with a behaviorist is a great idea if you can find one. I would be very interested to hear what they say!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[puffs-of-fluff]

Will update you, but I’m not sure how long it will take. Things still aren’t back to normal here with covid yet x

[puffs-of-fluff]

Hello, update here!

So I’ve removed the pen, and they now have full use of the lounge again, because she was peeing so badly in the penned off space. I assumed she felt ownership of the pen, that it was her area, and therefore marking it lots.

i’ve found that she’s actually improved when she has to share the lounge with me, and not have her own space. I’ve also put her back in with Gus at nights now, and this has made her peeing improve too, again I assume because she feels less ownership of the space. She’s still spraying him occasionally, and lots of mounting.

HOWEVER! HUGE DEVELOPMENT

The vet called on Friday and said she misinterpreted her blood results. That her hormone levels WERE high after all. She was booked in for an ultrasound of her adrenals on Monday. And they found her right adrenal was enlarged. They said that it didn’t look misshapen, so they don’t believe it’s malignant, but that there is likely to be some kind of adrenal disease present.

The problem is, that they aren’t sure they can operate, because of the large vein likely to be near the gland. They have no experience of this in rabbits, although they say it’s common in ferrets. They are referring her to a specialist

Does anyone have any experience of this please? Any help

[DanaNM]

Oh wow!

That is quite the development, and good to know the vet found the error!

I flagged this for the other moderators, as I know some of them have more knowledge than I do with adrenal issues. I have never heard of it in a female so this is very interesting.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

This is definitely something most people associate with older neutered (male) rabbits. However, it has been documented in spayed females as well. Treatment would depend on the cause. There could be a tumor or simply an enlargement of the adrenal gland (adrenal disease). For a tumor, there is radiation or steroid therapy. For an enlarged adrenal gland, there are reports of using Lupron to treat the condition. In fact, I believe there is even mention of it on the HRS website. I imagine the specialist will have a good idea for how the approach this.

[puffs-of-fluff]

Thank you for the replies guys. I’m very nervous about this, but I suppose all I can do is wait to see what the specialist says.

They are discussing the possibility of removing the gland, but they are concerned that there is a large vein near it. Does anyone have any experience, as I’m worried they will want to operate without me having done the research (as it’s very hard to find).

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