SOS bonding help needed:(

[NoraAndTheo]

I’ve had nora, a female Dutch rabbit we rescued for about two years and was told she was spayed but we were never 100% positive. My boyfriends mom is an exotics vet and very much bunny savvy and said the procedure to find out/spray her if needed is too risky because of previous health issues. Recently we rescued a holland lop, Theo (male) who is definitely neutered and have been trying to bond them. I’ve heard of several success stories about bonding unspayed females with neutered males despite how much people say they both HAVE to be fixed. (Keep in mind she might be spayed, however). We’re one week in and as of now there have been no fights, just a lot of humping by Theo and nora will either bunker down and allow it or sprint away. We have been stress bonding and then putting them in the bathtub together and it seems like things are going well but the second Theo approaches nora in the tub she starts grunting and squeaking like crazy and is obviously very stressed out. Nora is usually free range but I have her in a large penned area with him in a kennel in the penned area (its a brand new corner of the house so it’s neutral for both rabbits and there is a one inch divider to keep them from reaching through bars) and have been swapping their litter boxes but it seems like we aren’t making any progress and she is just terrified of him and losing trust in me for having him around. I’m extremely emotional about the whole thing because nora is my baby and I have fallen in love with Theo as well so I really need help. I really don’t want to have to give Theo away but if we don’t make progress in the next month then I’ll have no choice:(

[DanaNM]

Hi there, welcome! First let me say you may not get too many responses yet as the forum is still under construction, but I will do my best to give some advice here. 🙂

Second, take a deep breath! It will be ok! 🙂

I would just go under the assumption that she is spayed. You haven’t mentioned anything that would make me think otherwise (like false nesting, poor litter box habits, territorial behavior, etc.). Humping is very normal in bonding (even between neutered/spayed same sex pairs), but if it becomes very excessive once they are bonded you might reconsider the spay issue. But I think I would just assume you were told correctly, because so far his humping sounds par for the course.

Your first week actually sounds very positive to me. Not fighting is good, and her retreating or allowing the humping is also good. Humping in bonding is a way of exerting dominance. So when he is sure she is not going to challenge him, the humping should reduce. If she is very fearful, you can pet her to calm her down.

But, it is very important to be patient and calm and allow the process to work. You mentioned you swapped litter boxes, you might consider doing full side swaps. Ideally you swap sides every day or two until the buns don’t seem to react at all to the swaps. For example, the first few days you swap they might both run around thumping and marking. But after a few more days they won’t seem to mind at all. You might also see their behaviors start to sync up, they might start to lay next to each other and eat at the same time.

If you think Nora is very fearful of him it might be good to go back to pre-bonding side swaps for a little while till she gets more used to him.

You can also help the bunnies build trust during the bonding sessions by petting them both when they approach each other so they think the other is grooming them. This helps everyone (including you!) stay calm and start to build positive associations. Eventually you have to ease off the petting, but I have had good success using this technique when early in the bonding process.

Don’t worry about Nora losing trust in you. Just give her extra love when you can, but she will forgive you when the bonding process is over. 🙂  Try not to set a firm timeline for when they need to be bonded. In my experience that only makes things more stressful for everyone and can actually slow the process down.

Feel free to keep updating this thread if you’d like to get more advice or just simply keep track of progress. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

Thank you so much for your positive affirmation that things aren’t as bad as I feel they are, I feel much better about it knowing that nora isn’t going to hate me after all of this! I have given them a break from the stress bonding and since I want them to both be cage and pen free and nora has just been hiding in the hutch we built recently, we are letting Theo run free while she is in the penned area all day (her choice not mine I would never force her to be enclosed! And they still stay in the living room together even when he is free roaming) and then putting him in the kennel inside the pen at night. I guess my main concern is that they won’t get used to eachother if nora never comes out to check him out between the bars. She basically only sticks her head out for pets and food. Is this still progressive? I know that it’s a good sign for them to ignore eachother a bit but I don’t know if it’s helpful at all if she’s reclusive. When will I know that it is time to start stress bonding again? I don’t want to push them or make them uncomfortable too soon, I realize now that I may have jumped the gun and started them stress bonding a little too soon! Thank you again for your kind words and advice💕

[DanaNM]

For this “pre-bonding” time, I like to actually switch which bun is in which cage/pen, rather than just litter boxes. Try to arrange things so their hay is near each other, so when they are eating hay they are able to see and smell each other. I also like to feed them near each other (on opposite sides of the fence). Eating is a social activity in rabbits, so it can help them start to associate each other with good things. 🙂

I’m not sure I completely understand your set up, though. Do be very sure they cannot nip each other through the kennel or fence bars. I like to use a second x-pen and make a buffer between areas. NIC cube grids are also great for making temporary fencing for these types of purposes. I think you and they might be happier if you have two cages/kennels side by side so they are near each other when they aren’t getting exercise time. Ideally they could have exercise time at the same time (in a room divided with fencing), but if that’s not feasible don’t stress about it.

Bonding is kind of a tough-love thing. You want to make sure the buns are eating, pooping, and not TOO stressed, but it’s OK for them to be kind of annoyed at you for a while. My guy Bun Jovi took to digging ALL of the bedding out of his litter box and pushing it all they way across the room while I was bonding him recently! And so many thumps!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

Thank you so much for your tips!! To explain the set up a little better, we have a 10 foot diameter 4 foot high pen set up in our living room with a hideout and then a smaller but definitely still comfortable kennel inside that pen and then a second small pen wrapped around the kennel so that they can’t reach eachother but are in the same enclosed area at night time. During the day they take turns having free range of the house while one stays in the pen and at night they take turns being swapped from the kennel to the larger pen so they can get used to scents and such! Before this set up I couldn’t even get them to so much as sniff the vicinity of eachother but now when one of them is free roaming they check on eachother constantly so I feel like it’s making pretty good progress! Nora seems MUCH less terrified now that we have slowed things down a little. While they free roam there is a litter box on the inside and the outside of the pen full of hay and their food bowls are next to eachother through the pen as well now! Your advise definitely helped. I can tell they are much more interested in eachother now after having meals and treats so close to eachother💕

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a great set up. 🙂 Glad to hear they are doing better!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

Update: after a week of only prebonding I’ve put them back into a small neutral territory and am going to start stress bonding again tomorrow! My only concern is that nora is still grunting and squeaking like crazy any time Theo gets near her. Still no fighting or anything and the humping as subsided significantly! I’m just not sure if I should just let nora figure out that he’s not that bad or if that’s a sign that she’s too stressed out around him

[DanaNM]

You can try petting her to calm her down, or if Theo responds to her and backs off, I would let it play out. If she grunts and he then backs off, she will learn to trust him. If he approaches and starts trying to mount and she is acting scared, you can try repositioning him so they are smooshed together side by side and then petting them both. I’m thinking since you’ve had Nora longer and she trusts you this might be the thing I would try first.

Stressing might help, as long as it doesn’t stress Nora more than Theo.

Some people also like to have a large bonding area with lots of hiding boxes (very open ones with at least two exits, and at least 2 of them) when one bunny is shy. This allows the rabbits to interact more on their own terms and take breaks from each other (but some rabbits get territorial over boxes so it’s a trial and error sort of thing).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

Another update!! I tried your advice about a large area with hideouts and it worked perfectly!! They’re not totally bonded yet but they have been flopping next to eachother and Theo even groomed Nora’s head a little the other day! They’re fine with sharing food and aren’t territorial about the litterboxes at all. Nora still runs away from him a little every now and then but the mounting has stopped completely now and it seems like things are going really well! Is it time to move to the next step? I’m guessing that would be letting them spend the night together in the pen with the big hideout, two litterboxes and two food/water bowls just Incase?

[NoraAndTheo]

Another update!! I tried your advice about a large area with hideouts and it worked perfectly!! They’re not totally bonded yet but they have been flopping next to eachother and Theo even groomed Nora’s head a little the other day! They’re fine with sharing food and aren’t territorial about the litterboxes at all. Nora still runs away from him a little every now and then but the mounting has stopped completely now and it seems like things are going really well! Is it time to move to the next step? I’m guessing that would be letting them spend the night together in the pen with the big hideout, two litterboxes and two food/water bowls just Incase?

[pinkiemarie]

This is great! Congratulations! I’ll let someone else respond on next steps. I just wanted to congratulate you 🙂

[DanaNM]

That’s wonderful! Way to go!

About how long are they spending together in this new space? I like to make sure the positive progress is “cemented” before moving forward, meaning you see the same behaviors repeated a few dates in a row. If they are able to spend 4-6 hours together with no aggression then you are prob ready to do longer sessions or go for the overnight. I think I usually wait till they’ve done a few full days or very long sessions together with no issues then the overnight.  I would just keep the set-up the same as you have it now regarding the boxes and food dishes etc.

Be prepared to not sleep much! Sometimes things can be going great during the day, but things get feisty at night. If it seems like they get more and more aggressive throughout the course of the night you might have moved to the overnight too soon. But if it’s just a tiff here and there or some mounting then just keep going.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

Update on the process!! We’re having a weird time with it? They go from being okay with eachother to being annoyed with eachother day by day. They can be in the car together for hours and snuggle and share food but the squealing every time Theo approaches hasn’t calmed down at all and we’re still having mounting issues from Theo but then we also have grooming and occasional snuggles?? Today for example, they spent the night together last night no problem, got in a scuffle this morning, and then after their fight I pushed them together to snuggle and Theo groomed nora so I felt ok with leaving nora in the pen and letting Theo have a turn free roaming. I put them back in the pen together tonight, they had a disagreement and I put them in a smaller pen where Theo mounted and nora was squeaking the whole time until all of a sudden they were snuggling and Theo is grooming her

[NoraAndTheo]

To clarify, there still have been no actual fights. A little mounting and circling and nora pushing him away every now and then but nothing overtly aggressive at all

[DanaNM]

This sounds strikingly similar to what I went through with my most recent two, where they would be awesome for hours and then squabbles would pop up, after being together for a day. In my case, I solved it by moving the marathoning to an entirely new, super neutral spot (my friend’s garage, lol). Is there another area of your home you could try? Or a friend that you would feel safe bonding at their place? I know with covid it’s more complicated.

In some cases, I think even the bathroom is not quite neutral as buns can likely still smell that they are near to their home turf.

Also, what happens when you don’t intervene with her squeaking and their squabbling? At this point you might try waiting a second longer to see if they resolve things without you (use your judgement on this though).

It does sound like they are close… the grooming and snuggles are a great sign. You will just want to see the drama from Nora calm down. The mounting may not go away, but it shouldn’t cause drama when they are bonded. Some pairs do mount, but in a bonded pair it won’t lead to one bun freaking out or a squabble. (My Bun Jovi tries to mount Myra daily… she just runs away and he chases her honking for a minute or so, then they go back to cuddling).

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

I can try taking them out to our porch, it rains here really often so maybe there won’t be a smell? We aren’t in any of the states the rabbit virus outbreak has been seen in so I feel like it’s safe enough.

I only intervene if he starts nipping at her bum but otherwise I let them figure it out because all that goes on is mounting and she might do a one second boxing move but then she just moves away and they’ll go back to cuddling until Theo thumps and goes back to mounting, I assume because he grooms her and she doesn’t groom him back. I gave them some treats and they ate together and then I ended their session there tonight. I’ll go back to the porch for bonding tomorrow as long as the weather permits! It sounds like our bunnies have a lot in common with the mounting, running away and then mending things and that gives me a lot of hope for them! I really want to thank you  for being here for us with all of this by the way, I don’t know what we would do without you:)

[DanaNM]

You’re welcome! The porch seems like a good option. I would just keep letting them interact. I bet you are right in that he is mounting because she hasn’t groomed him back yet. I think with timid rabbits especially they really have to trust the other bun before submitting to groom them. Often things will finally just click, rather than having slow steady progress, so keep at it and they will get there!

Someone at the shelther I volunteer at always says that “rabbits don’t speak rabbit”, because it can take them a while to communicate with each other! She compares them to 14 year olds at a school dance: they want to be together but are too afraid of each other! LOL

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[NoraAndTheo]

Update! We went on a trip and the bunnies were able to stay in the large pen together for the whole trip without fighting in any capacity so when we got back I decided not to set the pen up at all and they have been doing well. They’re more coexisting than bonded but we still get some snuggles and grooming going on from time to time. I have a hard time leaving either of them in the pen because it feels unfair but this seems to be working well especially keeping in mind what you said about eventually it’ll just click for them. Nora has space to hide from him but tends to stick close by anyway and I feel like it’s a healthier way for her that doesn’t stress her out from being picked up and moved around all the time, associating me and Theo with bad experiences. At this rate I’m letting them take it all into their own paws (under constant supervision ofcourse) since there haven’t been any signs of bad or even slightly aggressive behavior in about two weeks now

[DanaNM]

That’s great! As long as you can keep supervising I would just keep them together with monitoring. Before leaving them unsupervised you should feel very confident that they are bonded. So a good amount of positive behaviors (grooming, cuddles, sharing litter box, etc.), and no negatives (they don’t flinch or get nervous when the other comes near, no scuffling, etc). Trust your gut, you will know! If it seems like they stagnate or get more distant, try restricting their space a bit (not to tiny, but just small enough that they can’t stake claim to different areas).

Not all pairs cuddle constantly, but mine tend to spend most of the day sleeping together.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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