Snoopy and Pancake [BONDED]

[Susanne]

I’ve now got my 4th adopted bunny, renamed Pancake, to bond with Snoopy! She is a harlequin and a bit bigger than him, but they did well at the shelter so decided to take her home!

Getting them set up was a challenge, at first had them in the basement with Maxwell and Ruby but they were all too crazy (I’m in a rental and technically I only should have 3 and in the basement)… so I have them temporarily split in a large bedroom upstairs during the bonding process. I started bonding about a week ago and started off very well, and we’ve probably done 5 or so sessions now. The first day they were cuddling and Pancake was grooming Snoopy almost immediately. About the third session she decided to start asserting some dominance and humping.. he did not like that so was nipping/ biting(he had nipped some before but nothing major and she never responded other than hop away). They haven’t really cuddled since the humping, but he has starting grooming her some too.. so alternating grooming each other with some annoyances/ nipping/ biting etc. that I do have to intervene. Snoopy has been pretty stubborn and mean at times. Pancake mostly just runs away and I think only nipped once so that has been good.  There is also a decent amount of ignoring. So I might put them in a smaller space and try and get them to chill and cuddle more to accelerate things, but overall I think they’ll bond in a reasonable amount of time. My house probably has so much bunny smell I’m sure that doesn’t help!

[DanaNM]

Pancake!!

That sounds very positive and like they are sorting things out!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Hi, I thought I’d put up an update here, since unfortunately things haven’t been going as smooth as I hoped. There were a couple of set backs with injuries, so this now will be my most difficult bond probably, out of the 3 I’ve done. We are on 2 months now. I am still hopeful they will bond though, especially over the last couple days.

Basically Pancake is not aggressive at all, which has really been the reason we’ve still been able to hang in I think. She did bite back a little in self defense, but very minor compared to what Snoopy did to her! She also seems pretty forgiving.

I wonder if Snoopy is a bit traumatized from his fight with Maxwell and that is making him have a harder time trusting, or, he is just not wanting to be the submissive bun. Also he has been in most of the house from trying the trio bond so the smells could be part of it.

To make a long story short, they groom each other a lot and act pretty comfortable in a small neutral space. Once I get them to a big room (I’ve had limited options but trying to get more creative recently) she starts to want to hump him a lot and that upsets him and he wants to bite her and go after her. If I stop them, they are all good again very quickly. Regardless what space they are in, Snoopy doesn’t really calm down and cuddle her. He will demand grooms aggressively, but usually doesn’t settle for cuddles. He will lay close, sometimes touch, even flop in the space, but not cuddle (although early on he did flop on her and that’s why this whole thing is so confusing lol). If there is hay, he will munch almost the whole time if they are not grooming each other or themselves.

Two days ago I moved to my large closet, and decided I won’t allow any humping at all. Before I would allow a couple seconds or I couldn’t get to them right away in the bigger room (and the face humping from Pancake which I did try to stop almost caused a really bad bite on Pancake luckily missed any sensitive areas) so the closet is a nice size space. It’s close to where they are living so I was surprised they are acting like it’s neutral so that was great news. This seems to work, as they already cuddled more than before. It’s interesting because with my last 2 difficult bunnies, I allowed some humping toward the end so they could figure things out, and after that, things progressed really fast. But with these 2 it seems like I need to prevent it completely.

That said, I am scared to even put hay in there with them since it has distracted Snoopy so much. So, this week I’m doing 2 ish hour sessions in the closet with just them and water and hoping they keep up like yesterday! They were acting 95% bonded. Maybe after a week they can have hay and be OK….

I’ll try and attach some pictures soon, they are super cute!

[DanaNM]

Oh man, I’m sorry you have been having a tough go of it! It sounds like the closet is working out well for them though! And I agree, there are enough positives that I would want to keep going as well. It’s interesting he gets so upset with the mounting, even with them both grooming each other a lot, but it sounds like they will get there eventually. I think your instinct is right that Snoopy doesn’t trust her yet. In my first pair, my male was VERY afraid of the female even though she was never aggressive towards him. It took a long time to get him to stop immediately attacking her, and then a longer time still to get him to stop cowering in the corner. However, he finally did overcome his fear and groom her (unprompted too) and then they were “suddenly” bonded. So I think Snoopy will get there since Pancake isn’t being aggressive towards him.

Have you tried any car rides with them? And/or do you have any friends or relatives (or workplaces lol) that would let you bring the buns for some sessions there? Since you have other buns in the house it could be extra helpful. When I’ve had really tough bonds moving to an entirely new space (not in my home) has been enough to turn the corner. With that tough bond above I took them to my office on a weekend and they spent about 6 hours there!  😆 And I would always have them right in the car together on the way to and from the new bonding location. On the flip side, if you take them to a new place and they do horribly, that’s a good indication that it may not work out.

It might also be good to have someone else assess them, if there are any rescues in your area that help with bonding. Sometimes buns behave really differently around their humans vs. a stranger. If things turn south in the closet, I would explore those options. But it sounds like you are doing a great job with them!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Hi, thanks for the response.

I haven’t done car rides, and I’m thinking they might not help because as of now, when I go to pick Snoopy up after a session he runs to her for help and tries to snuggle in lol. So I do think he sometimes sees her as protection already. And really he hadn’t been tooooo aggressive.. just a lot of one bites (ripping good chunks of fur) after she refused grooming and hoped away, then the one bad bite near genitals. There was one fight but that was my fault, they got into each others area when I left the room one day (I’ve been a bad bunny parent this year 🙁  ).  So that wasn’t because of aggression or fighting during a bonding session. I’ve stopped anything before it got bad in sessions.. and he only tried to really go after her when she tried to mount excessively or when he seemed to have a bad day (sometimes he let it go a little). but those times he did get pretty aggressive and I intervened really fast. He also calmed down fast and would be grooming her within seconds. I think the breaks and residual effects from that was most of the problem, although before all of that they seemed to be at a stalemate, since they seemed to spend so much of the sessions ignoring each other. but I do think the room I was in was also not a good choice. plus today I realized the shoes I had on were shoes that ALL 4 of the buns love to CHIN, so I could have inadvertently been aggravating them when I wore them (too late to remember if there bad days were days I had them on lol)

Anyway! It’s hard to summarize 2 months of drama! haha.

So today in the closet was great. I ended up going longer than planned and adding hay later on thinking I could end it if it went badly. There were a few mounting attempts and I pet them both right away before anything happened and they chilled out immediately. Either groomed or went about doing something else. I did have the shoes on and maybe a coincidence, but things went better after I took them off. There was a lot of laying close but not touching, which is better than across the room. I did move them each closer to the other once lol (another learning with these 2, they seem to need a lot of encouragement…). By the end, Snoopy flopped right by Pancake then she flopped on his head and he didn’t move! So that might have been a first.. Then she was flopped on him grooming him while he was sleeping. It was pretty cute. This was after they had ate together etc pretty peacefully (I think I had to calm them down once or twice when I saw a mount attempt about to happen). I ended the session soon after, so I think we are definitely headed the right direction. It was almost 5 hours I think.

I don’t really have other places to go, and the shelter maybe would have some resources. I’ll check with them as a last resort since they are about an hour and half away.

I tried to add photos to my profile so I could add them here but couldn’t get it to work 🙁

[DanaNM]

I was thinking the car ride might actually help her to stop mounting! Weirdly enough I’ve noticed a huge drop in mounting whenever I’ve done car rides. So just something to consider 🙂

Sounds like they had a great session in the closet though, so fingers crossed they keep it up!

That’s frustrating about the photos! I’ll check with the other mods to see if there’s any known issues.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Ah I see! If she starts getting relentless again with the mounting, I’ll give a car ride a shot. They are fine together in a carrier so it’s an option for sure.

I don’t want to get my hopes up since they’ve got stuck around this point in the past, but it does feel like we may be getting over the “hump” (fingers crossed!).

I tried to delete some old photos, resize mine, etc, so it doesn’t seem to be a size or space issue with the pictures. It shows it uploading but then doesn’t appear. Let me know if you find anything out!

[Susanne]

So after 5 hours with them today, it feels like they are 98% or so bonded. The biggest problem is still Pancake trying to mount occasionally. It seems like she’ll try a few times in a short window, but most of the session she is fine. (although, I’ve been doing afternoons so could get worse if different time) Today, there was a mix of sleeping while touching/slight cuddling, some better cuddles( still not full body cuddles or too much time in good quality cuddles), sleeping apart, eating hay at the same time, grooming each other and themselves. So all pretty good. They both flop often etc.  Snoopy chewed on one of Pancakes toenails at one point, so I mean they are getting comfortable! Snoopy even flopped behind Pancakes head and groomed her ears/back like she did to him yesterday <3

It really did look like the mount attempt easily could have turned ugly though. Since I stepped in, they stayed decently calm and turned it into a short petting session and I think one or the other ended up grooming the other instead. So it ends up very positive as long as I re-direct. But how long will she keep trying?? LOL

[Susanne]

What does a buzz sound with a tail wag mean?

[DanaNM]

That means they are thinking about mounting!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

That figures! She did it while running off, but I was already coming towards them since she had been acting suspicious so couldn’t tell if she was mad or still in mounting mode. The buzz was something my bridge bun Elmer used to do when he was courting me before his neuter lol. My other buns don’t make that noise! It’s funny how different buns communicate differently. I was wondering if that makes a difference in bonding.

I guess at this point neither one is wanting to submit. Or she REALLY likes Snoopy lol. He hears a “honk” out of her and immediately puts his guard up, and she did get away with getting on him a little which he did NOT like at all, thankfully no fur pulled or anything. I suppose I have to wait it out. They do like each other otherwise.

I’m taking a couple days off, and hoping the weekend goes well, and I’ll try for more time. Until the mounting stops I can’t trust them overnight.

[Susanne]

Well after a week, we aren’t too much better off. I’ve logged a lot of hours. I did switch Saturday to 2x per day to break up the sessions since they do fine when they are sleepy and I feel like the more awake hours to re-direct her mounting the quicker it might go? Plus it seems better for me 🙂 I had a lot of time to analyze them in my head and I think I just have to break her instinct to mount with repetition.

Sunday it did seem like she calmed down a little. She seemed to attempt a little less and give up a little easier, but she is still trying A LOT. Especially when they are active/ out exploring the closet. And Snoopy does not like it. Part of it could be her size, she is almost twice his size so he doesn’t look to comfortable and he is part Netherland dwarf (plus Himalayan) so he actually wheezes/squeaks sometimes when stressed and when she has mounted him.  She does usually get away with a few seconds because it will be unexpected and I don’t get there in time, and sometimes he will take it OK for a second or 2. Mostly they end up doing a little tornado/bunny dance. Snoopy has looked like he nipped/bit her but I have not seen any fur pulled so that is really good.. so I can say nothing negative has happened. Tons of grooming, flops, eating together and positive things. They even have the whole comfort with being all up in each other space thing happening (mostly). It’s just hard being so many hours without being able to push forward to a marathon. I also have tried really hard to be really calm and not say anything/ pet Pancake when I stop the mounting, which also seems to help. The next step would be to try a car ride first, which I’m trying to avoid because Snoopy has had a stressful year including a car incident so I don’t want to do that to him if I don’t have to. Since yesterday seemed like an improvement, I’ll give another week before trying anything else I think.

[Susanne]

Attempting to show some pictures 🙂

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jWGG5aye3UIm9x-wbtWQ75QdSNACg8Zi?usp=drive_link

[Susanne]

Ugh Now I’m just venting. Got them back in the closet this afternoon hoping they could just sleep a bit together and keep growing their connection, but Pancake starting off more mounty than ever, Snoopy bit her cheek pulling (thankfully) just a small amount of fur. She was upset but did not stop her from trying more later. They finally settled down and are laying close but not touching. I will do a car ride first in the next few days, and I also emailed the rescue. I was thinking I did do car rides when Ruby was relentlessly trying to hump Maxwell, and although it didn’t stop her, maybe it’s part of why he submitted to her eventually, but this time it’s different because Ruby was smaller than him and so Ruby getting to finally hump Maxwell and bond probably wouldn’t work with Pancake and Snoopy because he could get smooshed. lol. Anyway, I’ll still try, they are different buns afterall.

I’ll also see if the rescue has anything else they can advise. But, after the car ride and anything else they say, I’ll probably just give it another week or 2, then possibly have to swap females 🙁 I hate to do that, but I’m in a rental and not even supposed to have all 4 rabbits and they are supposed to be in the basement. Need to get them bonded and back to the basement, plus where I have them now will be harder to keep cool once the weather starts warming up, plus in general it’s just hard having them all over the house. Ideally with the housing marking I’ll probably want to go ahead and keep renting a while, so I just really need them in the basement. Buying more gates to set them up down there either way. I had moved them upstairs because Maxwell and Ruby were starting to scuffle with the new buns down there, but I can gate them off farther apart I think and have them all down there…

[DanaNM]

Ugh, that’s so stressful, I’m sorry 🙁 . And those pictures are so precious, it must be so frustrating to see them cuddle like that but then have it devolve into scuffling.

I hope the car ride helps, or maybe someone from the rescue can work with them for you to see if they can work some magic. That said, it would be completely understandable to try another bun or take a break from bonding all together. Bonding is stressful and I’m sure you and Snoopy could use a break. :-/

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Well, they did mention distracting her which made me realize I hadn’t reintroduced toys again since the bad bite a while back out of fear.. so I did last night. And I don’t want to get my hopes up because it hasn’t been long, but a couple hours last night and a short while now, I had some palm plates and a tunnel in the room and it’s helping.. fingers crossed.

[Susanne]

Hi again, this is a weird night. Came home and fed the normal treats and pancake didn’t eat. She looks like she might be going into statis 🙁  it’s always such a hard call if emergency or not, I don’t have lots of experience. Not stomach bloat. I’m going to monitor a bit and possibly go to ER 1.5 hours away tonight… She is acting pretty weird and uncomfortable. He did bite her today who knows where i thought maybe under her tail, didn’t see skin so I can’t imagine any injury especially one painful enough for her not to eat?

Anyway..she was sitting up by the gate so I put her over with Snoopy since wondering how it would be with her not well(plus maybe it would get her moving a bit to move her gut). So they are in Snoopy’s territory, she is not mounting and they are fine. She is not feeling good at all, but has tried to use the bathroom and pooped and peed some, also moved around. She doesn’t seem more stressed with him. Though he did chase her a little. So I hope it’s not a bad thing to use this to my advantage a little because I feel if we can wait until morning for regular vet that would be best. I don’t feel safe making that drive tonight honestly.

[Susanne]

I would definitely say we are going the right direction, hopefully it’s enough to make this work.

I can tell she knows the humping is not wanted. At this point she has come towards him honking and sometimes can hold back the mounting urge .. so that is good. Also she has stopped after me or Snoopy told her to stop. But I still did have to physically remove her at least once. Did I mention I even heard her honk in her sleep???

[Susanne]

The night of the stasis didn’t seem to affect anything, she was right back to mounting in the next session she felt better! Oh well. I’ve started taking notes in the sessions so I can see if there is a pattern. It seemed like they might have been cycling, but after the last couple days it did seem like after a couple hours she calmed down enough where she still tried but it got less intense. After 2 hours I didn’t have to intervene anymore, and I have been trying to let things go a little to judge where they are, and how easily she can be deterred, but of course trying careful with the head mounting (difficult as they start the tornado action so fast). The nice thing is Snoopy doesn’t seem upset about it afterwards, he may get a little distant but he isn’t like attacking her or anything. It also has to get really far before he nips her and he’s hardly even pulled any fur anymore. Also with having the toys and tunnel, they seem more comfortable running around the room, digging, binkying, etc in the same space. They aren’t cuddling as much but I think that is OK as long as they seem comfortable together. They still do cuddle and groom every session at least part of the time. So, I think this weekend will be a decision maker for me. I want to see if we can go long periods without me needing to intervene. There isn’t much else I can do and it’s not sustainable to bond rabbits 2-5 hours per day indefinitely 🙂 I’ll get them in a carrier for a short car ride if she goes into a frenzy after her initial excitement as the final thing to try having a bit more time for that over the weekend.

[cappuccino/cappo]

Hello!
Has this ever happened to your rabbit before? If so, how did you treat her? How much did she pee/poo, was it more, or less then usual? When was your last trip to your vet? If it was recently, did the vet inject your rabbit with something or did they give her a certain medicine? Are your rabbits spayed/neutured yet?

If this keeps on going on I would call the emergency.

[Susanne]

Hi, I’m not sure if you saw my response after the original, I think it was awaiting moderation a bit, but all was well. She was hadn’t been into the stasis long and I got her out of it pretty quick, otherwise we definitely would have went to the ER first thing in the morning. Thank you for the response!

[Susanne]

Well it was interesting to have them together in one of their territories last night for sure. I think it went so well, but I felt so bad for Pancake being in pain. I had one dose of Meloxicam from a past vet visit/statis episode with Ruby that I gave her and that was all she needed to get better. Kicked in and she gradually got back to herself. Once she perked up, she did mount Snoopy a little so I put her back over in her area. She is back to normal it seems this morning. Not sure if last night will have any effect on the bonding going forward, but she did seem to like him around for comfort so it seemed positive to me.

[Susanne]

So the weekend is going ok. Decided to get in as many hours as possible since they do seem to do best the longer they are together plus this was kinda my last big time commitment for a while before I reevaluate.

Started Friday about 3 or 4 pm. I have notes but overall I think they were working things out themselves other than me calling “no”. So I did walk out once for about 5 minutes downstairs to grab some things thinking they hadn’t needed me, but of course they got into it :/ sometimes I think they are only good because they know they’ll get in trouble!  Pancake got some big fur chunks pulled again, little skin but only surface and I didn’t see anything serious and she acted ok. Decided to keep going since they had stopped fighting on their own by the time I got there ,(still riled up though). And I never did have to intervene. did grab pancake to look her over. She did not seem to even get Snoopy once, when I got there she was like in corner scared of him and he is so small! So, despite that she tried to mount him once more. After that she calmed down then we all slept there together without incident all night. I had stuff to do in the morning and split them for a bit.

Started back around 1pm Sat. They have done really well. More distant. She mounted him a couple times and I switched it up and pet him during since she was the correct direction, he let it happen until she was satisfied lol. Afterwards he nipped and chased her away and they aren’t as cuddly but it’s better than fighting I guess. She still keeps trying but she is giving up more quickly usually.  He finally went and cuddled her really good around 10pm, which is where we are now, and she got up and tried to hump him so now they are sleeping about a foot apart since I guess the interaction made them unhappy:/ I don’t get why she had to get up in try when they were all cozy

[Susanne]

Overnight went well. They just slept again as far as I could tell. However they are still distant this morning so it’s really confusing how to proceed. It does seem like they’ve made progress this weekend so feels like a reason to continue. But in some ways I’m not certain they have?

I did pet Snoopy again once this morning when she tried to mount and he let her. She seems unimpressed after. Later when she goes for a mount he chased her off and nipped. Then follows her proceeding to try and hang out, sometimes ask for a groom himself. All very strange. It’s too early to tell but I think she is switching (not sure if just in addition to mounting) to thumping at him now for grooms. He gave her a little so hopefully if she realizes she gets better results she will chill on the humping. Now they sleeping apart again.

Still haven’t done a car ride. I was planning on it when they got to their hyper time last night when she usually spazzes out but she really was good. I guess it could possibly help with them being distant, I’m guessing it’s all related to them still disagreeing on the dominance thing so not sure if the scary situation together somehow makes one of them decide.

[Susanne]

So now I decided to let them out of the closet into the bathroom that connects to one of their areas. The mounting seemed to be under control where Snoopy could get her to stop. I won’t leave them unsupervised yet but they are confusing me! They are playing around together, kinda ignoring. One mount attempt Snoopy chased her away but not too mean. So I’d say that’s good considering they have not changed in non neutral area?

[Susanne]

Weekend update: We stayed in the non neutral space overnight. It was bigger and they were more themselves. Forgot to mention I did put them in a carrier yesterday and put them on the dryer while running instead of car for a few minutes, maybe not long enough but didn’t seem to change anything. Also noticed Pancake seemed to stop head mounting maybe she got bit too many times on the belly, but another reason I was more comfortable sleeping with them.

Anyway, The night was good, I woke up to them running around like 3am, didn’t see any fights or fur. They were a bit less distant, a little more cuddling and grooming again in the morning, kinda following each other around before I fell asleep. I wouldn’t say bonded yet though but super close. I separated them so I could work today. They would probably be OK together but don’t want to risk it. I think I’m just going to have them together as much as possible this week and try and cement things over the weekend.

[DanaNM]

Oooh that sounds like great progress! Fingers crossed!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks!

I have them back together this evening and as uncomfortable as it is I think I’ll spend the night with them. I opened up the gates so they can get to both sides of the room I have them living in, and they have been crazy running around. Not bothered by each other and seem to be playing. Still not laying together much and more distant with grooms etc, but I’d almost say they have a fragile bond, with Snoopy still being a bit stubborn but I think he’ll give in more over time. He was more affectionate when she acted less dominant but she has put her foot down more recently, literally. Lol. He’ll give her some grooms then go away as if to say he’s still not too happy about the situation but accepting.

I have been working downstairs but my office is down the hall from them so I should be able to work there tomorrow and hear them if anything happens even with the door closed. Still not ready to leave them alone for long, but seems to be almost there 🙂

[Susanne]

Welp I spoke too soon. Pancake mounted Snoopy 2x and he was not happy. He got her good once, couldn’t tell where but looked like skin and felt wet so maybe tail. couldn’t find any injury. He would still groom her and lay close but not cuddle. sometimes lay on the other side of the gate. This morning after she did it, he was chasing her off when she approached after. No big fur pulls thankfully, but lots of not good chasing. At least they aren’t fighting as I didn’t intervene in any of that, but still not bonded as I thought. They don’t seem to be getting past their disagreement 🙁 The root cause is the mounting. I think Snoopy would be OK otherwise, even if the other dominance moves didn’t go in his favor.

[DanaNM]

Ugh so frustrating! The excessive mounting can be hard to overcome, and unfortunately the only solution I know of is to keep trying to work through it, mixing up locations as needed.

🙁

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Also I did remove one of the gates in their room as I had it doubled. Assuming she can’t jump it, will make things much easier since they can interact now and it has a door. The whole point of this is for me as much as them, with 4 rabbits I don’t really have time to socialize with Snoopy (he is needy) as much as he needs and pay attention to the others without giving up my entire social life. So maybe if they can interact and play supervised, that will be enough if they don’t bond. Although, they probably would eventually since she is young and maybe has some spring fever going on.

Ultimately, I want them to be happy even if I can only see them an hour or so a day a lot of days.  Sometimes being bonded has it’s own complications like feeling like you always have to replace the ones as they pass.

[Susanne]

Yes extremely! Somehow I’ve used up an entire 4 bedroom house LOL one time or another with Snoopy. I’d almost rather try a different bunny than sit in the garage or something extreme after all this. Might bring them down to the living room, if they do good enough where I don’t have to intervene, at least I can have them there almost 24/7 and try and push them through it. I honestly think it’s a personality thing with her, I noticed she did it when excited, and scared, etc, and if he hates it they may just not be compatible. I tried to make a box with small hole for him for escape, but even though he is smaller his butt is bigger and she fit and he didn’t LOL

[DanaNM]

Yes it’s so tricky! Bun Jovi was a mounter, which was never an issue with Myra as she would just run away and he would tire out. But when I tried to bond him into a quad it became a huge problem as he wouldn’t stop with Cooper and it would cause fights. So you are right in that it depends on both rabbits.

And I totally relate to the feeling like you always have to replace a rabbit that passes, it’s how I ended up with 4 as well. The bunny-math is real. I do hope eventually I can go back down to 2 or 3 so they can all be in one space together as you are right that they don’t get as much attention when they are all split up. My girls have proven that they won’t bond so as long as I have both of them I will likely have two pairs.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

You have such great insight and experience, Dana, it’s nice that someone can relate 🙂  I got Snoopy kind of on impulse, thinking I’d eventually get a trio, but like your girls, him and Maxwell definitely don’t seem bondable. So yeah, having the 2 not bonded but can keep company might be a nice solution. I’ll have to think it through more, but I’ll probably need a break from the bonding after this week regardless 🙂

[Susanne]

We are now in the living room. There have been bunny acrobatics! Like binkying over each other and everything. Otherwise she still tries to mount so I’m expecting it to go about the same, so far nothing extreme. Everytime they almost settle and cuddle one gets up for one reason or another and they end up resting apart. Both have groomed the other at least and they eat together.

[Susanne]

Overnight in the living room went well! We still aren’t back to flopping together or anything, but they laid together some again, hung out a lot, lots of running around together in a good way, etc. I didn’t see anything negative. Minimal mount attempts and nips. Overnight Pancake slept in a shelf on my TV stand that she likes away from Snoopy lol. I can work nearby so they are staying together since this morning she is back sleeping in the tv stand anyway and they did fine when I fed them a treat etc. So confusing!!

[DanaNM]

It has really been quite the rollercoaster with these two!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes it has! Well they were barely awake this morning then have been crashed out all day. Nice that I could work and stuff without worrying or being distracted. I guess they wore themselves out doing zoomies, binkies and jumping on and off the couch for like 8 hours straight yesterday lol. We made it 24 hours without issues… hopefully they wake up in good moods.

[Susanne]

Ok so we did 2 overnights and I’ve seen nothing really bad, Pancake did pin him down and mount a couple times I saw and he nipped after (only got a tiny amount of fur, no serious bites these times but of course not sure if she ran away too fast or if he only intended the minor nips).  I’d think if he had a major problem he’d keep up trying to go after her and he hasn’t, once she runs into a tunnel or box he stops trying. The rest of the time I’d say they are extremely comfortable with each other when around each other, but they avoid each other majority of the time. (still they will groom each other and lay close occasionally) So it makes me nervous, but also 2 days without issue is good. Not sure what to do? I can have them live where they are for a while, but I wonder when I can leave for more than a few minutes? I mean if they don’t hurt each other when I sleep I would think after a couple more days it would be ok. It’s just so unusual of a situation. Like now they are roommates, and since Pancake has enough room and spaces to get away once she mounts and he wants to retaliate, they “seem” safe. It seems if I can keep them there together, they would eventually get better vs putting them back in the original enclosures. They seem happier overall in the living room. Any thoughts? I know Dana you had a pair eventually break since they weren’t completely bonded so I guess that is my fear with these 2.

[DanaNM]

So, this is tricky but I think I would keep monitoring, and you are likely OK to leave them alone during the times of day when you know they aren’t as active. It would also be ok to separate them if needed for periods and then put them back together when you’re home (like if you have to go to work). I think if they are in a larger space that’s also good because they can get away from each other if needed.

To me I don’t think they are quite bonded yet, but I think they are close. It’s good you are seeing some mutual grooming. Are they sharing food and litter box OK? I think I would at least try to give it a couple more days and see if things are tending to improve, stagnate, or get worse. The nip following the mounting isn’t ideal but it’s good it didn’t lead to anything. Some pairs do bicker a bit more than others, but you do want to see them behave like they like each other most of the time. For example Cooper is food aggressive towards Bonnie.  She will also randomly sneak-attack mount him which he does NOT like and he will chase her off. But then they go right back to cuddling and grooming each other, so I don’t worry about them anymore. A similar dynamic could set up with your pair, I would just want to see those positives clearly.

And not all of my pairs spend 24/7 together. It seems like often they sleep separately during the day and will cuddle up at night, so that could be at play here too.

The pair I had that split did seem more like “roommates” but they were different in the fact that I never saw any mutual grooming, they went from fighting to avoiding and tolerance. I had hoped they would get closer over time but never did.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, I have 2 large cloth pads down with hay for toilet areas, and they do tend to overlap when they eat and have no problem with sharing. They can be touching etc while there no problem. No one chases or minds the other using it.  I’ve fed them pellets and treats (except their favorite I did separate for that) and did not lead to aggression. They do shove each other for them, but no nips or anything like that. (my bonded girl is food aggressive and way worse than either of these 2).

They are at the point even though they groom each other, it’s very minimal at least the hours I’m awake. Like last night they both came over for pets and Pancake groomed him 30 seconds or so. Maybe one more time that day but that was about it that I saw. And he groomed her maybe 5 times, but short 30 seconds- 1 minute and then hopped off. So not much at all. In the last day I don’t think they even layed very close at all, maybe a few feet away for a little bit. No cuddles anymore (they did cuddle a bit the first day). Last night, they did finally settle laying together once for 2 seconds, she got up and tried to mount and he chased her off so that ended that. Sometimes they run up to each other like “Hi, it’s you, you’re cool”, then hop off.  They hop into each other while playing, jump on each other accidently on the couch, stuff like that and no one gets annoyed. It’s like Pancake might be a little scared of Snoopy and is not understanding that it’s her mounting that makes him upset?? But not so scared that she can’t eat or play or whatever. They both seem overall happy, and I really do think they like each other and want to bond, but just can’t seem to figure it out. I would think by now if they didn’t like each other there would be more obvious signs, and if Snoopy was going to just snap he would have already. BUT, that’s the hard part to really know.

I do agree about not leaving them alone right now, unless short times when they are sleeping. I was planning to see how things go through Saturday morning then see if I could leave them together longer by then. So far I’ve only left the room up to like 20 minutes at a time during the afternoon and separated for an errand in the evening.

[Susanne]

I guess I should add in a way Snoopy already DID snap, twice… He fought her and kinda backed off on his own when she didn’t fight back although I got to them pretty quick so I’m not sure what would have happened if I didn’t. That said, the fact that he didn’t continue to act aggressive towards her after those times makes me think he really doesn’t want to hurt her because he could have and doesn’t keep trying? Example after he and Maxwell fought and saw each other again thru a fence I could tell they wanted to hurt each other and hate each other.

[DanaNM]

Their dynamics definitely sound very different from my two that failed. Your’s def fall more in the progression of “figuring it out”. With mine there were not even grooming or mounting requests, and they never wanted to be in the same place. They would share food ok, but they mostly avoided each other. I think the fight actually happened because the more scared but finally worked up the courage to ask for grooms and they weren’t reciprocated, so he attacked her. In the other bonds I’ve given up on (specifically my trio recently), they showed very little interest in each other (would basically spend the whole time on opposite sides of the pen), and then they would alternately pick fights with each other that were not even related to mounting or grooming requests, it was just 0 to 60. Your assessment that yours do seem to like each other, even if not attached at the hip, is motivation to keep going with them. I know a past member marathoned her pair for about 2 weeks. I think they had a fight about a week in (a dispute over a hide if I recall correctly, or maybe following a mounting attempt inside a hide), but then they did bond after that.

I think you are right in that Pancake still doesn’t quite get that mounting will not be tolerated, but I think she will get there eventually. Oddly enough, sometimes once they realize the other bun isn’t a threat, they stop trying to mount them. I always try to remind myself  that so many behaviors we see in bonding are fear-based, and it can just take them time to get past those fears. It’s very good that things are escalating the way they were before.

Your assessments of their behaviors make sense to me and I think your plan sounds good! At some point you can try adding an actually litter box and see how that goes. Sharing a box is always a good sign that things are progressing well.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I actually use the pads instead of litter boxes in general 🙂 It seems cheaper and more eco friendly even though it’s a lot more laundry!

Your pair that broke down does sound different. Mine aren’t shy about asking for grooms! lol. They do ask and do head wars, very pushy. That never leads to anything aggressive. Thanks for the feedback, so yes we’ll assume for now they do like each other. Pancake might have hurt feelings about getting nipped after mounting but I feel she wouldn’t keep approaching him (after avoiding a while) if she didn’t like him.

I’ve read a few other threads to try and get some perspective and see if there were other situations similar and how they turned out, and couldn’t find anything quite the same, though nothing really discouraging either. Overall it seems like miscommunication, I’d think after 3 months they’d figure it out but I suppose they at least are starting to anticipate the other and that is why things aren’t escalating as much. And more avoiding, but still better than the more frequent mount attempts. Fingers crossed Snoopy doesn’t go back to resorting to the hard biting and pulling fur with skin.  That has not happened since we moved to the living room and I’ll feel good as long as things don’t escalate that far or worse a scuffle overnight. It does seem like the last 2 spaces things started out good and slowly deteriorated, but this time it’s not regressed as far, probably due to a better size space and them getting used to the others antics.

I know in theory I could do more, like car rides, camp in garage, etc, but I don’t have it in me as this process and the setbacks have me exhausted already (and slightly losing my mind lol), especially when there are no guarantees. At least I work from home so I can keep them in the same space extended times but it’s still a lot of time stuck in the house.  I really expected Snoopy to be an easy bond and the shelter said they had tried Pancake before and she was easy going, so all this was not expected 🙂 Fingers crossed the next few days goes well or at least does not get worse!!

[Susanne]

One quick update, I now am pretty convinced the mounting/ subsequent actions are fear based. Maybe not the mounting itself, but I think the mounting scares Snoopy, which makes him react aggressively, which scares Pancake. I tested it again when they both wanted me to pet them. I was petting them together and then Snoopy starts grooming her. Later she groomed him. He laid next to her. Then she wanted to mount him a bit later, and they were all cozy so I pet him while she did (I’d done this a couple times in the closet too). Eventually I pulled her off and pet them some more.. he didn’t try and nip or anything. She groomed him a bit more and they nuzzled faces then she hopped away. So as long as I refereed they did fine, although Snoopy did want her off  pretty quick and I do think she hurts him with it a bit after a while. She doesn’t bite but she pulled a little fur with her feet/nails digging into his side. Not sure how that helps lol, but maybe I can jump in when I see it to help Snoopy be less scared.

[DanaNM]

That’s a great idea! Breaking cycles of fear/aggression is a good thing!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I think it worked! I tried in the closet last week but maybe not hard enough because he would still nip after so I stopped trying:( I wish I did this sooner. Comforting Snoopy seemed to be the answer vs trying to get her to stop mounting. I was able to get to them multiple times and seems like it’s getting out of her system because the last time she only did it a couple seconds and stopped. He stopped nipping. When I didn’t get to them he quickly turned to face her and she gave up.

And the best news? They slept together next to each other for HOURS on the couch last night!! That was a first 🙂

[Susanne]

So I think they *might* be officially bonded now 🙂 I don’t want to jinx it! I’ll probably give it another 24-48 hours or so before I call it. Haven’t seen a nip in 2 days/48 hrs now I believe. Still not hanging out too much but improving!

[DanaNM]

OMG yay!!!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Hi again! I am going to call them bonded now! Are you able to update the title of the thread? Yay!

There were a couple mounts/ nips after, and one chase, but they made up right after and it was very minor. Not like before. That was after days of no incidents that I saw, so I don’t feel worried about them anymore. I’ve left them alone a bit and they have been fine.  They aren’t super close, but they do cuddle now occasionally and still groom each other some, and generally “hang out” a decent amount of time. They remind me of siblings. lol. I have a feeling they will become closer over time.

[DanaNM]

YAY! The update we’ve all been waiting for!! 😀

Congrats and great job on all your hard work with them!!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks!! I’ve now even been able to put them in the basement with the other 2 (it’s a large basement and set up very nicely for them with 2 large areas) without issue. Of course I liked them up with me, but my lease has them supposed to be in the basement, and they were chewing on door frames and wood upstairs so I feel better with them downstairs. Plus, I have a futon and TV down there and can visit them all at once now. 🙂

[DanaNM]

That’s awesome! Congrats again!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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