Small space making things worse?

[LuluRabbit]

I started bonding my buns Theo and Alfredo  a few weeks ago, and recently (as in, today) started the 24/7 bonding method because I felt like things were going alright, but very slowly with the dates – Theo kept humping and not relenting to groom Alfredo, whereas Alfredo groomed him all the time. I put them in a very small enclosure with wire grids (as suggested by many bonding videos) and Alfredo, who had all but stopped humping, started to hump again! They got into a really terrible tornado fight, and bit my hands for the first time as I could barely get them apart – I was wearing gloves, but this hadn’t happened before. Is it possible that the small space is not good for them? Or is this a normal step in truly bonding them? Alfredo just keeps thumping too because he hates being enclosed.

[LuluRabbit]

For reference: https://binkybunny.com/forums/topic/bonding-diary-im-terrified-and-probably-will-need-help/

This is when I was using the bathtub, not the 1 square cube grid

[DanaNM]

I have never had good luck with the small space method (and I’ve bonded I think 6 pairs at this point). I have no idea (honestly) why it works for so many. When rabbits have no room to get away from each other, they have no choice but to fight if they feel threatened (fight or flight…).

I’ve always had much better luck with very large spaces. They have space to chase a little without it escalating to a fight, and if things get heated it’s easier to intervene before they lock on.

It seemed like things were going fine before, so I would go back to the last thing that worked. There may be some scuffling, but you need to prevent all out fighting. As frustrating as things can seem, many of the videos recommending that method are focused on getting them bonded as quickly as possible, which isn’t always the best thing for the rabbits. It’s important to be patient and go at their pace.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Thanks for your input! – I just finished putting both of them back to bed, because tonight has just been too crazy! I can’t do these marathons. I also figured a couple hours into the small space that it just wasn’t working – I was intervening for all subsequent hump-fights, but it was just way worse than the tub, and Alfredo was not happy. I even expanded it to twice the size and it was the same. I tore down the whole setup and tried a large space – a.k.a. the whole bathroom – and Theo just kept chasing Alfredo while he ran away. I wasn’t sure if I should let him keep chasing? But after a while I got worried Alfredo would be too stressed, so I put them back in the bathtub with nothing inside – and after a brief attempt to mount which I broke up, they flopped! I don’t understand rabbits at all haha… I thought they would like the big space but somehow they seem most relaxed in the tub. I think I’ll stick with the tub for now, and occasionally swap them into the rest of the bathroom to test a larger space. Theo is just way too eager to chase and mount – I think they’re just having some issues because Theo feels entitled to grooming, and if not groomed he wants to assert dominance, but Alfredo definitely is still holding onto that dream of dominance.

[Wick & Fable]

I echo Dana’s point in that the small space method is a commonly seen method, but not always successful or productive. What you see on bonding sites and videos are general things that have worked for many rabbits, but it’s important to remember that there is no “one-way” to bond rabbits — the owner’s intuition can be a much better tool than “every video I saw mentions this”, at times, especially if you are witnessing increase in aggressive behavior. I’m sorry to hear your hand got caught in the cross-fire! Very small space did not work for my rabbits. I used an Xpen (larger space than you see in those videos; larger than a bathtub) in my bathroom for the “marathon” portion of bonding.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[LuluRabbit]

Today we’ve been doing the whole bathroom, and it has been SO much better. Definitely something changed since the last time I tried using the whole bathroom as well. Theo still chases Alfredo but he has room to get away, and after some bunny magic they mutually groomed! I haven’t had to physically intervene since probably 5 hours ago. I’m thinking if they are good I might sleep next to the bathroom door tonight. Fingers crossed.

[Susanne]

Glad to hear it’s going better! Did you sleep next to the bathroom and how did it go? Maybe the other day they were already too riled up from bathtub fighting so putting them back for a night gave them a reset. I’m always interested to hear bonding stories since I plan to do more in the future!

 

[DanaNM]

Glad to hear things are back on track!

Never feel bad about taking a break during marathons when it just is not going well. Sometimes the bunnies just need a break too!

I think the best rule for bonding is if it’s going well, keep doing that same thing! If it’s not, try something else 😉

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Thanks!

@Susanne  – we did sleep with the bathroom door open (but blocked for the buns), and it actually went super well! We didn’t haven’t to break up any fights at all, only occasionally stepped in to stop Theo from mounting because it was getting a little much for Alfredo. He’s still chasing Alfredo a lot but Alfredo is just running, no more circling… I’m keeping them in there with their litter, food water and everything they need, and probably will move them to a semi-neutral space after a couple days/once they cuddle up. Petting them nose-to-nose also helped a lot.

[Susanne]

Great news!!!  The nose to nose pets are a great tool and worked well for me too. Keep us posted, hopefully Theo will give up on the chasing soon, but at least it’s not escalating to a fight!

[DanaNM]

That sounds like great progress! 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Update on the bonding:

So things have been pretty much the same the last three days – some times in the day they are both pretty sleepy so nothing much happens, and some times Theo is really active and just keeps going after Alfredo to mount. I’m trying to figure out how to get over this phase – any advice for the excessive chasing from Theo? I tried putting them in a different space, the living room in an X-pen, it was pretty similar. I reduced the X-pen to a smaller size and that made it worse – I think if there’s any less space than an X-pen, Alfredo doesn’t have enough room to run away, and eventually he turns around and they start circling/tornadoing. Once I expand their area back to an X-pen size, the aggression disappears but Theo still incessantly chases to mount. Alfredo mostly runs away, but sometimes turns around and grooms him – actually, there’s been quite a bit of Alfredo grooming Theo, and a bit of Theo grooming back but mostly in preparation to mount. Theo just won’t let up, and Alfredo runs away and won’t let him mount, and I’m afraid Alfredo will get stressed at this constant running away. I put a little hidey tunnel in the area just so he would have a safe space…

[DanaNM]

Does the chasing escalate to anything if you don’t intervene? If not, then it’s just a bit of a waiting game. Tunnels and hides are a good solution (including things they can jump up on). Bun Jovi tries to mount Myra pretty much every night like clockwork. She will run away and usually hide on top of one of their hides after a bit, and then he gives up and they go back to cuddling.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

The chasing doesn’t escalate as long as Alfredo has enough room to run away (it will escalate if they only have 8 sq ft or less). I just put a couple more hiding places in their X-pen – Theo is pretty annoying to Alfredo about the attempts to chase/mount! If it’s just a matter of time, I hope he settles down soon for Alfredo’s sake! I feel like without the chasing they would be perfect. Alfredo definitely WANTS to groom Theo, but he is put off from interacting from the mounting. Maybe it’s because Theo is still relatively young… he’s only 8 months and was neutered 2 months ago.

[DanaNM]

Gotcha, I would def keep going in the large space then and just give them some time. The chasing can seem a bit endless, but actually the more times he chases and it DOESN”T turn to a fight (Alfredo doesn’t turn to face him), the more Theo will realize Alfredo isn’t going to challenge him.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Ok, thanks! I’ll keep them in there and keep an eye on any signs of it lessening – good thing is, they’ve been together about 5 days straight now and there haven’t been any fights, so at least I can get some sleep now hahaha.

[DanaNM]

Yes, no fights is great!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Update: This afternoon was going amazingly, but they regressed in the evening when Theo became more active. I was so hopeful because they were literally cuddling the whole afternoon, and then around 7pm Theo went wild with the chasing and mounting. Alfredo ran, and then took it for a bit, but it was pretty excessive so I intervened when it seemed he was getting too annoyed. It’s strange, Alfredo grooms him and treats him so well, and Alfredo is very non-confrontational these days…

[DanaNM]

I’ve had a similar thing happen with past bondings (all good during the day, then things get feisty at night). Do you have any other location (of the same size) that you could try? It honestly sounds very familiar to me, because Bun Jovi always wants to mount in the evenings.

I think sometimes the space becomes not-neutral over time and a change of scenery can help get past these sticking points.

If not, perhaps doing some stressing in the evening might help get through the night without incident.

When you intervene, you can also try to get them to stop without physically touching them (either a with a loud noise or using a squirt of water).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Got it! I talked to a friend of mine and she said I could use her kitchen tomorrow for a completely different neutral space. Crossing my fingers this helps! I’ll also try stressing in the evening – I realized that I have been doing all stress bonding sessions earlier in the day (times I’m more likely to go out, and to prepare them for the day) so that might make a difference as well.

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a great plan! Fingers crossed for you!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Eek! So I took them over to a friend’s from noon to 9pm today, covering both their sleepy time and active time. She has two cats too, which seemed to help push the buns together even though the cats were very friendly (I made sure they couldn’t harm the rabbits or scare them). We put them in their x-pen, no litter box, and Theo started humping a lot. Then they quieted down, spent some time being interested in the cats, and cuddled a lot during the afternoon. During the evening, 7pm rolled along which is usually when Theo gets mounty, and there wasn’t any issue! Theo was being a model child. We had to take them home after (therefore doing a mini stress bonding in the car at 9pm) and immediately upon settling down in the x-pen (now in a NEW “neutral” space in the living room) Theo immediately started chasing and mounting again. Sighhhh. We are going to keep them in this space and see how they do – we haven’t had to separate them in the x-pen due to fights for a long time so for now I feel safe just leaving them there. It was just sort of disappointing because they were doing so well at a time of day they hadn’t done well before, but I can’t sleepover at my friend’s or borrow her cats lol.

[DanaNM]

Bonding can be so many ups and downs! I’m happy to hear that it went well at the friend’s house, I would try to repeat that again if possible! And maybe see if you could sort out if a sleep-over would be possible. 😉

It’s a bummer they had some mounting etc. when you got home, but I’m interested to see how they do overnight. I’m sure that even a new location in your house smells much more familiar than your friend’s house.

Also, I’m interested to know how long these chasing episodes last, and what happens after? Also, what positive vs. negative behaviors do they show? The the mounting isn’t excessive and there are lots of positive behaviors then it could be a part of their relationship. But if it leads to circling or scuffling that’s not good of course.

I ask because Bun Jovi and Myra have some mounting as part of their relationship. Pretty much every evening like clockwork BJ will start grooming Myra, then that progresses to him trying to mount, then she hops away and he follows her around honking for a few minutes. Then he gives up and they go back to cuddling. There was a brief time where he was getting very obsessed (like he would not leave her alone and I was worried one of them was going to get overly stressed) and I realized it might have had something to do with feeding too much dandelion (which is a diuretic and also very high calcium). I have never seen anyone else have that experience, but once I cut back on his dandelion things calmed way back down.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Hmm… For positive behaviors: cuddling (during the day), mutual grooming though mostly Alfredo being subservient, no fighting. Negative behaviors: Some food possessiveness from Theo, Theo chasing and mounting a lot while Alfredo runs away, the chasing episodes can last anywhere from a minute to seemingly the whole night – though Theo always gets tired and takes breaks so Alfredo never loses his temper enough to initiate a fight (unless they are in a small space – they fight with microbonding!). Alfredo definitely doesn’t like the chasing/mounting – and he can be frantic with the escaping, but Alfredo has been pacifist for the past week. The most he has ever done is turn around to nip Theo once if mounting too much, but sometimes he turns around to lick him to appease him. They never cuddle after the chasing, but when they are daytime sleepy they are attached at the hip. Alfredo’s lack of aggression has literally been my lifesaver…. our one little angel bun 🙄

I definitely think they know it’s our home now – I tried my best to block the familiar view and vinegar spray the floor but I’m sure they can see it’s just another space in the living room. I’m also interested to see how they do overnight! I feel like we are so close, but I’m not sure how much more marathoning I can handle….

For next steps, if this doesn’t progress, I’ll definitely try to get them over to my friend’s again. Maybe if I ask nicely, she can keep them at her place for a night or two… We would just have to cat-proof the top of the pen 😐

Thanks @DanaNM for your support! This has been so stressful as a first time bond and it has made all the difference to be able to share and get tips on this forum.

[LuluRabbit]

Pics of the buns from this afternoon at the cat house 🙂

[DanaNM]

You’re welcome!

Bonding can be super stressful, especially marathoning. If you don’t feel like home is ideal, it’s also perfectly fine to give them a break overnight so you can get some sleep. Sometimes pushing forward in an environment that isn’t as ideal can make things harder. They honestly sound a lot like my bonding of Bun Jovi and Bertha (his previous mate), in terms of being angels during the day and having issues at night. Changing scenery was what helped them get over that hump, so hopefully it works with your two as well!

It does sound like you are getting there though, it’s always a question of how long this phase will last!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

24 hours later update!

Ahh! They have actually been pretty good the past 24 hours – after some chasing last night, Theo has been much more subdued with the chasing. He still follows Alfredo’s butt around, sometimes to mount but mostly for attention I think – he also hops around to Alfredo’s head but sometimes Alfredo is like nope I don’t have enough energy for this. My heart is aflutter but I daren’t hope!! I’m going to leave them in the same place, and if things are still alright tomorrow I’ll put in a litter box. The peeing on the wooden floor is not a great look but I’d rather have that then risk adding a territorial item too soon…

[DanaNM]

Ooooooh that sounds very positive! Tentative hope!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

I added the litter box a few hours ago, and it seems hopeful! I think Theo gets a little insecure with environmental changes so he chased a bit, but they’ve settled down, Alfredo groomed him and they both loafed together! I can’t impose on me and my roommate’s shared space for much longer (mhm… bunny poop in the dining room is not pleasant for non bunny fanatics) so I’m crossing my fingers the next 24 hours go well, and then I might move their x-pen into their permanent space, and gradually open up the x-pen.

At this point, I’m getting increasingly hopeful about a finish line in the near-ish future. Hopefully no more issues I won’t have solutions to, but updating for posterity because I know all the forum posts from past bondings have helped me a lot!

 

[Susanne]

It sounds close to me! Hopefully they can both peacefully start using the litter box today. Keep us posted once you move them, I am curious how they do once moved to the permanent space. I could tell mine were ready when they seemed totally relaxed together (other than my one would show annoyance in a healthy way),  ate close and jumped all on each other like the other wasn’t there sometimes.

[DanaNM]

That sounds very positive!

My only other advice is to give it a bit longer than you think you need before moving them. So I would prob try to go at least 48 hours with the litter box, and assuming you don’t have any more negative behaviors in that time, then you are prob ready to move to semi-neutral.

I have not always had a great semi-neutral spot for transitioning, so I will spend extra time in the neutral spot so I am 100% sure they are bonded before moving them to their final home (sometimes up to 4-5 days). If they are doing great after 2 days, you don’t necessarily need to be supervising 24/7 that whole time, but it helps to cement things further and make sure they are ready for the move. I haven’t had any issues doing it this way (I always completely clean and rearrange their final home though, so it’s somewhat unfamiliar).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Ok great! I’ll do that. So far it’s been good…

[DanaNM]

So exciting!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Ah no!! There has been a recurrence of the chase/mounting, last night and this morning. I guess the litter box changed the environment enough for Theo to go for it… So far it doesn’t seem to be so much as to stress out Alfredo. At this point, I can’t remove the litter box… it would just be too messy since I have a roommate. I’m going to keep them out in the living/dining room space another 24 hours and see how it goes.

[DanaNM]

Dang! But not too surprising. Some bunnies go through repeat of the phases any time there is a change in the environment, and then things settle down again. Hoping they calm down once they get used to it!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

Theo has gotten a bit better – minimal chasing in the past 24 hours. I’ve pushed their stay in our shared living space long enough so I had to move them into my room/their permanent room at noon today, after vinegar spraying everything. There was some initial mounting but especially since it’s their sleepy time, they calmed down within 15 min or so… I’m going to keep watching them, and do some occasional outside bonding (car, friend’s house, etc) if necessary. But I feel like I trust them to at least not hurt each other at this point, and they still like each other – Theo is currently flopped behind Alfredo’s butt! I just need to see how it goes the next couple nights, because that’s when Theo has the urge to mount the most.

[Susanne]

Yay!! Like Dana said before, I wouldn’t be surprised if Theo tries to mount ongoing as part of their relationship (My 2 were bonded 7 months ago and the female humps the males head at least once a day). Lucky for them, the male doesn’t mind so I’ve never considered it a problem. (I did stop her the first few times but then let it go). He’ll occasionally try and mount her as well, and she runs away. He chases her a little then gives up.

[DanaNM]

That’s great! Hoping it’s smooth sailing overnight!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LuluRabbit]

^A couple pictures from the ADORABLE couple. They are squished so close!!

Update – so it’s been 3 days since the last update, and they are doing alright. Theo still gets the urge to mount at night/in the morning, but they seem to be getting along well outside those times. Alfredo is not allowing the mounts, he just runs away but never gets aggressive about it. It’s not ideal – I wish Theo would settle down with the mounting – but they definitely still like each other.

They haven’t gotten that much exercise space recently, so I was thinking of getting rid of the x-pen today. If it makes things worse, I’ll go back to x-pen and do more outside dates, but there’s also a chance that the extra space will make Theo chill out since he will have space to get his energy out.

[Wick & Fable]

It’s great to hear you are picking up on some patterns, and it sounds like they are too. Learning to navigate each others “quirks” is important. It sounds like you’ve gotten a handle of assessing how things are progressing!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[LuluRabbit]

So, final (hopefully) update – they seem to be bonded! They are free roam in the room now, and besides for the occasional chase/mount from Theo, they are doing really well. Actually, at this moment they are taking a nap, but despite having so much room chose to be squished together in one room of their castle. Theo follows Alfredo wherever he goes – I’m a little sad because he isn’t interested in pets from me anymore, since Alfredo grooms him so much… but Alfredo still loves pets and I’m happy they have company now.

[Susanne]

This is great to hear!  I didn’t see any pics attached, I’d love to see them together if you can post 🙂

[LuluRabbit]

Odd, all my photos that I tried to upload disappeared! Sometimes I can’t figure out how to do media on this forum… but here is a pic, if it works!

[DanaNM]

Congratulations! I can’t see the pic either, but way to go!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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