should I screen for EC in Bun Jovi?

[DanaNM]

Hi everyone,

I mentioned this in Meg’s thread about Teddy, but would love everyone’s thoughts on whether Bun Jovi could be having some EC symptoms or whether it’s more likely old age/arthritis.

So Bun Jovi is 13+, and he in most respects is doing great. He eats and poops well, doesn’t seem in pain, snuggles with Myra etc. Over the few months I’ve been noticing a bit more hind leg weakness. Often if he runs around a corner too fast his legs will slip out from under him (even though I try to cover all flooring with rugs and blankets of course he decides to run on the part that’s not carpeted. Sometimes when he goes from lying down to standing he has to kind of spin in a circle for a minute to get his back legs under him. His balance on his back legs isn’t great, so when he grooms his face he has to do it one paw at a time. 😥

He also seems to be having more urinary incontinence, but it’s always around the pen and near his litter box, rather than around the room. Granted he spends a lot more time in the pen. He also still does his usual evening burst of trying to mount Myra. I had him checked for a bunch of other urinary issues about a year and a half ago and everything was negative (xrays, urinalysis, etc.). The vet did say he had some arthritis issues and joint degeneration in his hip from his xray.

Oh, and then the other day while I was away for work he gave my husband a heart attack because he was chasing Myra, tried to hop in the litter box, slipped and landed on his back, and then just froze there. Tom didn’t see the whole thing so he just saw Bun lying on his back frozen. I think maybe he tranced himself? Then Tom woke him up, he seemed very out of it, and he laid down breathing heavily for a while, and peed while he was laying down (which I’ve never seen him do).

I would hate to assume this is just normal aging and have it be EC. But then the arthritis may explain a lot or all of this.

What do you all think?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

EC is probably less likely in this case. Arthritis could explain a lot of this. Plus he IS 13… so there could be some other age-related things going on. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to have him tested, but I don’t know if you would want to take him to the vet just for that. Maybe something the ask about next time you’re there?

[jerseygirl]

Is he on anti inflammatory meds at all? That would be helping with both age related ailments but also EC if he happen to have active infection. If ec is causing some recent issues, at least something like metacam would begin treatment.
Is the test they do now more accurate? PCR test right?
I would have convo with vet about how older buns like him go on panacur. If it’s a non-issue, there is the option to just going ahead with course of panacur.
Has BunJovi has any recent blood work done? I suppose if going in for ec blood test, getting general blood work done at same time might be useful and will also help keep eye on his cell count if he does end up on full course of panacur.

[DanaNM]

These are all really good points. He is due for a check up anyway, but he HATES the vet so much I’ve been dragging my feet on it. It’s been worse with not being able to go into the vet with him, so I’m hoping that now they might let me come in. That and I’m still in the trust-building phase with his new vet.

I don’t think he’s actually ever had blood work done (bad rabbit owner, I know), but I’ll check his records from when we did all the urinalysis stuff.

He has been on metacam on an as-needed basis, but I think it would be good to make sure he’s on a strong enough dose, because it’s on the lower end.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

If he’s due for a check up anyway, then I don’t see the harm in having bloodwork done. Then they can do the EC test at the same time.

[jerseygirl]

You’re not a bad bun owner lol. I have a house full of senior bunnies and cannot recall when last had blood test done. I def understand the reluctance to take them out of their comfort zone.
It’s one of those dilemmas being an attentive bun carer. Debating whether to take a rabbit to vet for our peace of mind vs the possible stress of that causing more problems! I do recall one time post-visit realising it had been worthwhile because the vet brought up something I hadn’t considered.  Cannot remember specifics but just recall that feeling of validation for making the call to take a bun in for checkup.

Then, of course, there is those occasions where it is a no-brainer to take them in.

How long ago what the vaccination visit?

[DanaNM]

He just got his vaccinations, first dose was about 5 weeks ago. It wasn’t with his normal vet though, and I think they just do a really quick exam to make sure they don’t have obvious illness since it was a clinic.

He has only had 1 visit with the “regular” vet here. It’s hard to say whether I liked them or not. She’s apparently very experienced with exotics and has a “fear free” practice, but at the same time didn’t want to trim his nails because she said he was overly stressed. I wasn’t in the room for the exam so it’s hard for me to judge but that didn’t give me a ton of confidence.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Poor Bun jovi.

His symptoms sound quite similar to Bellas when she had arthritis (spondylosis).  So just to point out some similarities that might help you.

She also experienced urinary incontinence that was from not being able  to squat properly and also not wanting to jump into the litter box.. So I wonder if its from that? She also used to pee frequently and in little bits because she couldn’t squat properly so maybe something to look out for?

Also the hind leg weakness sounds very fimilar, she always had a limp and was a bit more reluctant to move and had muscle loss in her bad leg.

She had a course of panacur before we adopted her, ultrasound and a course of baytril, the conclusion was that it was down to the arthritis.

She never used to spin when getting up though but she was a bit wobbly.

Although, I have not had experience with EC before so the similarities I’ve pointed out could be bias towards my own experience…. Hopefully thats somewhat useful 🙂

[DanaNM]

Thank you! yes I think it most likely probably is arthritis and/or spondylosis. I might get another low-sided litter box to see if that will be helpful for him. I used to have one for Bertha and it helped her a lot. <3

I had a vivid dream the other night that he was jumping up on things and binkying like he used to, was pretty sad when i realized it was just a dream. 😥  But I am thankful that he mostly seems like a happy little guy still.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

I remember my bunny Milo having similar symptoms… sometimes it would look as if he was a little clumsy or dragging his leg/off balance like.  Is Bun Jovi having any sort of nystagmus in his eyes? Urinary incontinence from what I remember can be a symptom of E. Cuniculi and this happened with Milo as well, I knew something was off when one day he had randomly began to pee not only outside of his litter box but also on the floor underneath my bed. Good thing being on the Metacam already, definitely could be joints… but if he/she does seem off balance or having nystagmus… it may be worth checking out the ears as well to rule out anything going on/ and a preventative course of fenbendazole definitely for e cuniculi since these are new symptoms, it also might not hurt to have another urinalysis just in case… as it could be bladder related, stones, sludge etc…

I’m sorry if this sounds a little daunting, but my Milo had very similar symptoms. Lastly, an quick check on his back might not hurt as well just to make sure.

Wishing all the best for you and Bun Jovi

[DanaNM]

I scheduled a check up for him next week, I’ll keep you all posted!

I don’t think he’s had any nystagmus, but as an REW he often does the little bobble head scanning thing to try to get a better view.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

How is Bun Jovi doing?  I’m sorry I missed this thread earlier.  Teddy is about to go to the vet too and I’m grateful we can compare notes.  I hope Bun Jovi is doing OK, and am sending you both hugs!

[DanaNM]

He’s doing fine! Our vet appointment is Friday but he’s basically been the same. His leg weakness has been a bit better the last few days, which has been good.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just as an updated, I took Bun for his check up today and the vet didn’t believe me when i said he was 13. LOL

Like I think they really thought I was lying or misinformed. I had to say, no really, I have his records going way back from the shelter! Sadly they said the average rabbit lifespan around here is closer to 5 or 6. 🙁

I actually didn’t even bring up EC, he’s been doing really well the last couple weeks so I think it’s really more likely to be just arthritis. I kind of regret not asking about it now, but if his symptoms flair again I will ask.

Interestingly, she wanted to do a much lower dose of metacam for him. I was given the dose of 0.5 mL twice a day (of the 1.5 mg/mL concentration) by his old vet to use as needed. This vet wants to do only 0.25 mL once a day, so this would be like 1/4 of what he was getting before? That would only be 0.19 mg/kg, which is below the range recommended on medirabbit, even for chronic use. To me this seems like a huge under-dosing? I brought that up but she said she always worries about kidney function and stomach effects so she likes to do as little as possible. But she also said I could increase it up to 0.5 mL if the lower dose isn’t working, since he’s obviously been doing fine on it?? The 0.5 mL dose would still only be .38 mg/kg, so definitely in the recommended range.

Not really sure what to do here. She did say just try the lower dose and see how he does, but that also feels like it could just be wasting medicine?

I also asked about famotidine, and she said she doesn’t like to give it as a precaution because as an H2 blocker it affects stomach acid production which can have other negative effects, so she only gives it if she starts seeing evidence of stomach trouble from the metacam.

This vet is really well reviewed for exotics but I’m not sure how many rabbits she actually deals with, given the fact that avg life span around here is apparently 5 or 6!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh my 5-6 years!?  That is sad.  But congratulations on having a senior bunny in such good shape that they literally thought you were lying about his age! ;D  I’m also so glad he’s been doing so well the last few weeks. 🙂

Teddy and I are both on twice-daily famotidine, haha.  I’m not sure what these negative effects are (but maybe I haven’t noticed them personally because I don’t eat hay).  FWIW, Teddy’s been on it for a couple of years with no apparent issues, but I know that’s N=1.  But I have not heard about this concern before.  Did she mention what sort of symptoms to look out for re: stomach trouble?

I am biased in favor of metacam, especially in bunnies as old as ours, but yeah, my two cents would be that if he does fine on a lower dose, then sure, but otherwise I wouldn’t necessarily worry about continuing the dose you’d been giving.  From the studies I’ve seen, it appears that they haven’t been able to establish an upper limit for chronic or short-term use — I haven’t found a study that shows harm.  My recollection is that a study of crazy-high dosages in the short term (something like 50x the normal amount, IIRC) did not show harm, and I don’t know if long-term use has been studied to try to establish the threshold for harm.

FWIW, what I think I will do for Teddy is just try once more, after he’s recovered from the vet and we are back from an out-of-town trip, to reduce his meloxicam and see how he does. If trial and error really seems to suggest he needs a high dose, I think our choice will be to go with that since at this stage I’d rather he be able to enjoy his remaining time.  I certainly could be wrong about this call, but that’s my sense at present.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Can’t help you there, I’m really sorry 🙁

What I do know is that dosages of Metacam vary a lot per vet: my friend’s rabbits get 1/4th of what they prescribe at our clinic. (Which is still in the safe range, but a bit much to give in one go.)

We talked to our vet about it because our bunnies were totally spaced out every time. We agreed to spread the medication over 2 or 3 smaller dosages a day, just like you’d do with human painkillers.

[Meg]

That’s a good point — I read that the effectiveness drops off around 8 hours, so splitting it into every 8 hours would be ideal.  We do every ~12 hours.

[DanaNM]

Yes, I brought up the 12 hour dose splitting, and she was firm in wanting to do once a day! She did say since he’d been on the higher dose in the it was OK to continue, but wanted to see how the lower dose went. I chatted with a friend back at the rescue and she said the dose she gave me won’t do anything, so I’m really not too confident in her at this point. Man I miss my old vet!!!

In any case, at least I was able to get the prescription refilled, which was the main purpose of the visit!

@Ellie that’s interesting! I wouldn’t really be concerned if the amount she prescribed was within the range that’s recommended in the literature for effective dosing since this is for minor stiffness rather than surgery or something like that, but she’s well below the minimum recommended. Medirabbit lists 0.3 mg/ kg as the minimum effective dose, and she’s recommending 0.19 mg/kg!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Just to be sure: is she talking about the same concentration? I know that Metacam comes in different concentrations for cats and dogs: 0,5 vs. 1,5 mg/mL.

We have the dog version that’s 1,5 mg/mL and we were prescribed 10 times the weight of the bunny in dog equivalents. So a bunny weighing 1,35 kg gets the same as a 13,5 kg dog. The advised dosage of dog Metacam is 0,1 mg/kg, that means 1,35 mg Metacam in 1 day. At a concentration of 1,5 mg/mL this means 0,9 mL.

 

[LBJ10]

That is disappointing. I agree with Ellie, that doesn’t sound right.

[Bam]

It does sound like under-dosing, Dana. I remember Medirabbit used to recommend 0.2 mg/kg as the lowest effective dose, but they changed it to 0.3 mg/kg because rabbits metabolize meloxicam so fast. Does she give any reason why she’s reluctant to a higher dose? The most common side effect is, as you know, gastric ulceration, and there are ways to lower that risk considerably with famotidine or sucralfate.

 

 

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

@Bam: this also explains why my buns are all a bit spaced out. Apparently my vet advises on the higher side of the scale.

That threshold of 0,3 mL/kg would mean that our bunnies get more than twice that. 0,9/0,3 = 3 (kg), and our rabbits are ~1,3 kg.

 

@Dana: The more I hear from others, the more I doubt this vet’s assessment. He isn’t taking Metacam for an ingrown toenail, he needs proper pain management. I’ve got chronic muscle and nerve pain, and I couldn’t get much done in a day if my pain medication was cut short.

If I were a taxidermist, I’d tell this vet to get stuffed.

[Bam]

Ellie, I made a stupid typo, thank you so much for directing my attention to that!!!

It is 0.3 mg/kilo, milligrams per kilo, not ml/kg (milliliters)!

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Analgesics/safe_analgesics.htm

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Ah, in that case my rabbits get a dose that would be the minimum dose for a 4,5 kg rabbit. (1,35/0,3= 4,5) Even more than my previous calculation.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Hmm yeah I agree with others that, that does sounds quite low. All I know abiut metacam I’ve pretty much learnt from this forum so I probably have nothing new to rely on that front but I do kniw that typically arthritis requires a decent dose twice daily to be effective depending on the severity.

Bella was on 0.4ml of dog meloxicom twice daily, she weighed 1.8 kg. That was prescribed indefinitely with the disclaimer that she will possibly develop kidney issues in later life so to do monthly urine samples. Her spondylosis was pretty severe though, she wouldn’t move much at all without meds. Our rabbit vet is a bit more relaxed with medication but he is a good rabbit vet, we often travel far to see him.

[Bam]

Ellie, I dont know if I calculate right, but if your buns get 0.9 ml of 1.5 mg/ml strenght Metacam, the dosage is 1 mg per kilo body weight, which isn’t  crazy high, certainly not for short term use. It was what my Snoa got after her spay, for a week, divided into 2 doses 12 hours apart.

(Unrelated: I just bunsat a Nethie last week, I so fell in love 🥰)

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Thanks, that’s reassuring to know ^_^ They react strongly to it though: Breintje couldn’t stand on his feet and wet himself, and Molly fell asleep all the time.

Bunnies do have a crazy tolerance for medication. When the vet said that they need 10x their weight in dog equivalents I asked Breintje if he’d gotten into my medicine cabinet. The little druggies… It’s probably because they eat plants and plants have certain alkaloids as a defence mechanism.

(Yes, Nethies have so much sass and rabbittude ^_^ They can be so difficult to work with, but they do know how to wrap you around their paw…)

[Meg]

omg HOW have I gone 13 years of bunny-adoring without knowing the word “rabbittude”??  😀  I love it!

I hadn’t thought about the minimum effective dose in my comment before — I agree, probably doesn’t make sense to go below that.

I’m not advocating this for others, but FWIW, Teddy’s been on super high doses (paired with famotidine) for a year or two without obvious side effects.  (He was getting 4 mg/kg for the past year or so, and then the past month has gotten over 5 — so, several times the recommended limit on MediRabbit.  I am concerned now that this is just way too much, so we will be trying to reduce soon.)  I wouldn’t suggest anyone else jump to something like this, but it’s where we’ve landed through trial and error (which may be flawed), and his bloodwork has stayed in good shape, and the vet said the meloxicam may have helped to slow the progression of his spondylosis/arthritis (though it is advancing now that he’s 13).  He may be an outlier for sure, but I just wanted to share what our experience has been.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Hehe, my vet didn’t know it either, and it made him laugh. The word just makes so much sense! Rabbittude, every owner will know what you’re taking about. It’s a very good sign when rabbits start to show that again.

[DanaNM]

Thanks everyone! Yes he has the 1.5 mg/mL concentration, both for his past prescription and current one. @Glenn, Bella was almost the same weight as Bun Jovi and that was almost the exact same dose he got from his old vet.

She just seemed hesitant to have him on a higher dose or even a daily dose for “vague gestures about kidneys and liver“, but also seemed really uninterested in doing the diagnostics to check on the function of those things?  And then when I asked about famotidine she also said she didn’t like to do it as a preventative. So I’m kind of at a loss.

Also, like all rabbits, he was hiding his symptoms at the vet and hopping around fine, so she probably doesn’t really believe that he needs it. But just because a bun isn’t in excruciating pain doesn’t mean they won’t feel better with some help? And if he has inflammation that could be making things worse over time?

I’m inclined to just keep doing what I’ve been doing and start searching for a new vet. I may also call to confirm again (and cite the studies that medirabbit lists), because maybe she just did the calculation wrong? It’s so hard to find a good vet! I don’t particularly want to take him to another soon when he is doing well, but she also only gave me a 10 mL vial of metacam, so once I run out I may take him somewhere else if she doesn’t want to refill it.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Yep, I’d make vague gestures towards her when she isn’t watching, and keep looking for another vet.

Is Metacam prescription-only in the US? My boyfriend’s family was shocked about the kinds of human medication that were sold OTC there. Any way to get that without going to a vet?

[LBJ10]

Yes, it’s a prescription here.

Dana – At this age, I think the benefits outweigh the risks. My vet agreed and said a higher dosage is fine. Yes, you want to keep them going as long as you can. But at 12 or 13 years old, they need to be comfortable too.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

That’s a very good point that also comes up in the care for elderly humans: quality of life is the most important thing.

I wouldn’t worry about things that might come up during long-term use, but rather focus on giving him comfort.

[Meg]

Totally.  I’m so sorry it’s so hard to find a good bunny vet.  I really hear you on not wanting to have to bring him in more. Maybe, if she wanted you to just try this under-dosage, if you tell her when it doesn’t work, she would let you give him a more reasonable dosage?

I totally get your wanting a really good vet on deck for the future though.  I really doubt I could say anything about finding one that you don’t already know.  We’ve been spoiled to be in well-resourced metro areas since getting our bunnies.  I’ve relied heavily on local bunny shelters for recommendations, but I’m sure that’s not a new idea to you!  I do hope this works out in a way you’re comfortable with, and I’m so sorry.

[DanaNM]

Thanks everyone! In her defense, she did approve a higher dosage, but just wanted me to see if he had the same benefits with a lower one?

But still, if something serious happened I’d want to have 100% confidence!

OH, and the funny part of all of this is as I was putting away the new 10 mL bottle of metacam, I realized I had a brand new 32 mL bottle from his old vet. So I won’t be needing to go back for a refill for a while. LOL

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[prince dorian the bun]

I have no experience with elder buns, but the vet saying 5 – 6 years is the average age would have been a red flag for me. My vet went into great detail how bins could easily live to 12 years and more, and that was being pushed by a better understanding on how to treat them.

Hope Bun Jovi is able to find good management for his pain and you find a better vet. So hard when in lots of places there are limited choices.

[DanaNM]

Thank you! Yeah when I heard all the staff acting so surprised (and doubtful) that Bun Jovi was 13 it didn’t give me a great feeling. Like I know most rabbits don’t make it past 12, but it mostly indicates that the practice as a whole doesn’t see a lot of rabbits. IMO, having the technicians be experienced with buns is just as important as the vet!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[prince dorian the bun]

Yeah, it’s a little worrisome that they didn’t believe you. I hope Bun Jovi really goes for breaking some real records in age!

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

What the fluff…? They didn’t believe it?

Everywhere we went with Breintje people just smiled and told us that they were happy to see such a healthy senior. (Often followed by very sad tales about the rabbits they usually see. Damn, working with animals must be really depressing… They see so much neglect and animals dying long before their time. I always take extra time when I go to a vet, so they can pet a bunny and have a chat. Breintje was a star therapy bunny.)

[Cassie119300]

That’s so frustrating, I’m glad he’s doing ok, I agree with everyone else the vet saying 5-6 years is a bit startling and a red flag. My Milo had been on 1.0 ml of Metacam and no mention of famotidine was made at the time, but I later found out about it’s uses he was near 4 pounds when he was taking it. I would think if they were that worried about kidney function  and liver function, then they would take the blood test, unfortunately sometimes they have to be pushed to be bothered to do something, in my experience however, if they have to be pushed to give a damn to take a test, your better off finding a better vet.  How is everything going urinary wise?  I do still wonder about any underlying urinary issues with the incontinence, since he’s older it makes sense with trouble squatting, I’m just thinking if he by any chance gets any urine on his back legs, It could then definitely make him more prone to a urinary issue of some sort. My Milo had a few episodes where he randomly had pee on his legs. I agree that probably somewhat of a higher dosage with famotidine as a precaution, as well as a vet who is willing to do bloodwork/urinary test and maybe another x-ray down the line to see how his arthritis is doing. In the meantime, I wonder if there are any natural supplements that may be beneficial for his arthritis. I know oxbow had a joint supplement. I think the lower litter pan is a great idea too and any sort of cushy spots around the area.

That’s an amazing age for a bun! All the best for him.

[DanaNM]

He’s still doing OK, but yesterday was not a great arthritis day, even though he had several good days in a row before that. He will often get up, try to move a bit, and then seemingly get frustrated if he cant get his legs underneath him correctly. If I’m nearby I help him a bit by giving him something to brace against, but he also seems to get a bit confused in general lately. *sigh* He is mostly in good spirits but it’s hard. 🙁

Although he tends to pee outside the box once or twice a day, thankfully he isn’t peeing on himself so he’s staying pretty clean. I think mostly when he pees outside the box it’s actually marking because it looks more like spraying, as he has had more hormonal behaviors as he’s aged. Having the sheepette and pee pads really helps too. I did notice his scent glands are clogged though and that will be a nightmare to clean because he hates being handled and gets really squirmy. And of course I don’t want him struggling and aggravating things.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

Aw, poor Bun Jovi. 🙁  The confusion is really hard because you feel helpless. There isn’t much you can do except try to be reassuring.

[Meg]

I’m so sorry, Dana.  It is so hard.  I don’t have much experience since we’re going through this for the first time with Teddy (his BFF, Athena, passed pretty suddenly at age 10, and she hadn’t had much in the way of age-related changes).  But Teddy is also having good days and bad days, and the bad ones are so hard. CBD oil seems to help with the arthritis, fwiw. (1 drop into about a teaspoon of pellets, swirl/shake a while, and then divide the pellets into 3-4 servings.)  The other thing that made a difference was making a bumper out of a rolled towel and clamping that to the wall of his main house.  He leans against it whenever he needs to and it seems to help him stay out of those vicious cycles where he’s down and can’t get up and then his legs fall asleep (or whatever is happening) and then he has more trouble staying up.

The main thing that’s been helping us through so far is to just keep rolling with the changes, and look for the silver lining that might come with each new change.  The past few weeks we started daily “spa times” with Teddy, bringing him up onto the bed for 5-10 minutes of hygiene, massage, and physical therapy.  I thought for sure he would hate it, since he’s always hated being handled, but to my total surprise he seems to tolerate and even enjoy it at times!  I guess he maybe understands that he needs the help and that we’re taking care of him.  It seems to make him feel loved and less alone.  Never would have believed it!  (We got a baby brush and though he’s always hated grooming, he seems to like that.  It’s not the best for removing mats but it seems to give him a feeling close to being licked by a bunny.)

The other thing that’s keeping us going is just trying not to assume anything about tomorrow based on today.  He can have a bad day and I’ll immediately start thinking this is the end (I’m a big catastrophizer), but then the next day he’s in way better shape.  Or vice versa.  But the catastrophizing stresses me out so much more — it’s helpful to try to interrupt this and tell myself I *don’t* know what’s about to happen next.

It still really sucks, though.  Teddy pees more or less everywhere now — thankfully not on himself though!  I don’t care about the mess really, it just makes me sad.  (We do change out his bedding as needed.) When he falls over, and/or can’t get up, it’s so hard to watch. He’s also been eating less in the past day and not always wanting treats, and that is so hard. (I know that’s a danger sign; it’s just that he does this for a day or so every few weeks now.  He is already on twice-daily cisapride and we will give him CC if he’s not eating enough.)  I sooo wish I had more ways to help, that I knew what would cheer him up, that I knew for sure what he wanted.

So yeah, it sucks.  Hugs to you and Bun Jovi.  He’s lucky to have you.

[DanaNM]

Thanks Meg, great point about not catastrophizing!  Bun is like that too. I actually picked up some CBD tincture to try but I haven’t yet because I wasn’t sure about the dosage. What concentration is your cbd? Mine says it’s 33 mg for 1 “dropper full”, which I think is about 1 mL. That’s a good mix it with pellets to get a smaller dose, because even  1 drop of the one I got might even be a lot for him. A friend uses it with her elderly flemmie with arthritis and it seems to help her, but she said it can make her even more sleepy so to time it for after meal times.

I might try making some towel bumpers to see if he will actually use them (and whether they will chew on them too much). He doesn’t always seem to want any help! Typical old guy!

Mostly I’ve just been trying to spend more time with him. Our routine here is so different than it used to be. In our studio I would pretty much be with him anytime we were home, but now I have to make an effort to hang out in the living room with him. In our last place they were set up in our bedroom/office but they would sleep under the bed most of the day. Now I mostly spend time in the living room in the evenings, and it’s to the point where he mostly just assumes I am coming with food, so he starts getting all excited about that, and then doesn’t settle for pets because he’s looking for the food. 🙄  So I’m making an effort to give extra pets throughout the day and I will sit with them for a bit in the morning too. I love having 4 bunnies but it really is hard to make sure you spend enough time with all of them!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

My vet said that at that age, they can have more pellets. Helps to keep weight on them anyway.

[Meg]

Yes, I have a similar concentration for the hemp oil we use (30 mg/ml), and the bottle says it comes out to 1 mg per drop.  I’m so glad you asked because I just went to look up what I had written a couple years ago when we tried it then (since we’ve just reintroduced it) and actually can’t find anything about breaking up the dosage further!  So maybe I have been under-dosing him?  I’d written “The only guideline that I found mentioned more than once was about 0.25mg per pound.  I give Teddy 1 drop of a CBD oil that’s a 30mg/mL strength, and it says that 1 drop has 1mg of CBD (so, just slightly more than the guideline as Teddy’s about 3.5 pounds).”  As a human, I find that about 0.14mg per pound makes a difference for my chronic pain (and my doctor says this is the threshold below which it should have minimal interactions with medications), and that it lasts about 8 hours.  So I guess what might be worth trying is, after mixing the 1 drop into some pellets, giving Teddy half in the morning and half in the evening.

I was also reminded that it’s good to give it several hours apart from / after any medication so it doesn’t interfere.  CBD uses the CYP3A4 metabolic pathway in the liver, so it can “hog” this pathway much like grapefruit does, affecting the metabolism of the other medications that use that pathway (either up or down, depending on the medication, according to my doctor). Googling grapefruit interactions gives you a pretty good idea of what CBD will interact with.  If I understood what I read correctly, it shouldn’t affect meloxicam but could affect cisapride.  Wanting to avoid the potential of cisapride side effects from metabolic overdose is why we had stopped CBD the first time (when Teddy was doing mostly great).  Now it feels like the benefits for his aggravated arthritis outweigh the risks, to us.  But I’ll go back to staggering this more carefully with his cisapride.

Good luck with the towel bumpers!  I just used a couple safety pins at the bottom to keep it from unrolling, leaving like 6″ free at the end, and then used clamps (a large binder clip and an alligator clamp) to attach the free end to the outside of one wall of his favorite hidey house. So the free part runs underneath the wall, and it’s angled so the safety pins are on the floor underneath the bumper and Teddy can’t get to them.  But he is not very aggressive these days; you would know best if that would be safe for Bun Jovi.

“Typical old guy!” — haha!  Exactly. ;D  More proof that toxic masculinity is not good for anyone, hahaha. ;D  Teddy is a feminist guy, maybe thanks to growing up with Athena since he was 3 months old, and he’s increasingly in touch with his tender side. 😉  But he is still a staunch individualist and doesn’t like to be told anything. He needs to decide everything for himself. (Are there any bunnies who are not like this? 😉

That’s so cool you have 4 bunnies!  Are they two pairs, or one group?  It does sound like a challenge.  We were in a studio for a long time as well.  Now Teddy has his own room and I just camp out in it basically for most of the day (my desk and computer are there, so it doubles as my office I guess).  But I don’t know what I would do if we had more bunnies in another room!  Haha it’s wonderful Bun Jovi still gets so excited for food. 🙂

 

[jerseygirl]

Continuing to read this thread with interest. I joke that I have a senior citizens home for rabbits. Somehow have ended up with a bunch of elderly buns!

I wonder if Bun Jovi & Teddy could benefit from some potassium supplement?  Or even electrolyte with magnesium & potassium, sodium.
It could be good for the muscles and bones. I’d wondered if they could become a little depleted if peeing excessively?

I think I might start to offer some to my crew. Ironically, it was for a young rabbits condition that I’d been reading about  these minerals lately and had picked up various electrolyte products. Not not sure why I didn’t make the connection that the oldies could probably benefit from it too.

[DanaNM]

That’s really interesting jersey! I’ve used the Sherwood appetite restore fluid before, but never as an electrolyte supplement. It does have potassium in it, but not sure about magnesium. I do give him the Sherwood prevention vitamin/treat thing though, that does have some magnesium in it. I can’t remember if he likes the electrolyte fluids, but if he would take them willingly I don’t see any harm in adding that to his daily regimine.

And good point about staggering meds Meg. I did opt to give him 1 drop of the cbd I have this morning, which should be around 1 mg. He weighs about 4 lbs so I think that’s should be about right? I’ve only been giving him metacam in the evenings so I think that spacing should be good. I’ve been considering splitting his dose into 2, but then I think the amount would be so low as to not do anything. I really should go to another vet…. or maybe I can call my old vet and get their opinion off the record.

Good idea about attaching the bumpers. I tried just putting some towels in and Myra immediately started trying to unroll them and push them around LOL.

Anyway, lots to consider, I’ll report back on how he does with the cbd.

And yes 4 buns is cool but a challenge! They are in two pairs (I had tried for a quad but the boys were NOT getting a long). Bonnie and Cooper are in the kitchen/office area, and Bun Jovi and Myra are in the living room. It’s tough because I spend a lot more time in the office since I work from home, but I felt it was necessary to have Coop and Bonnie in there with me because Cooper is the youngest and needs a TON of exercise and supervision. Myra is pretty active too, but no where near as crazy as Cooper haha.

 

 

 

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just a quick update, he seems to be responding well to the cbd! I gave it to him a few hours ago after his morning burst of activity and he’s been sleeping comfortably. When I went in to check on him he hopped right up for pets and didn’t seem to have any issues getting his legs under him (which he was earlier today)! He also doesn’t seem super groggy or anything, he’s still very responsive.

So if the rest of today goes well I might start doing cbd in the mornings, and his metacam in the evenings and see how that goes.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[jerseygirl]

That’s great! I hope you continue to see a difference.

pretty sure it’s still not readily available here in Australia. Our TGA (like FDA) made changes last year but so far no OTC products meet the criteria.  Good to know it can help animals. I read that constantly.

[Meg]

That’s so great!!  I’m so glad.  So far we just have an N of 2, haha, but fwiw I’ve found similar results with Teddy so far — that it can work pretty quickly to help him to feel better and be less stiff/challenged.  It must have been so great seeing Bun Jovi hopping up for pets!  🙂

I think effects vary by individual, but my impression/experience is that CBD doesn’t usually cause grogginess, especially without any THC.  My impression is that it’s mostly a strong anti-inflammatory, and can have a mild effect of boosted calm/well-being.  It’s possible that pets sleep more with CBD because they are more comfortable?   Anyway, I’m so glad it’s helping so far!  🙂  1mg does seem like a good dose for him, probably.  Doing that in the mornings and meloxicam in the evenings (at least while the meloxicam dose is too small to split into 2 per day) sounds like a good plan. 🙂  (I was wrong — an online drug interaction checker does show moderate interaction between CBD and meloxicam, so it’s good you’re staggering.)

Thanks so much for reading, Kate, and for your suggestion!  I’ve never had luck before getting Teddy to drink anything that’s not water, but I can always try again.  (I don’t know if he’s peeing more than before, he just has a lot of different pee spots now that he’s no longer using litterboxes.)

I hope everyone has a good weekend! 🙂

[DanaNM]

Well, some new developments. The cbd stopped helping so much, so I ended up switching him to twice a day meta-cam at a lower dose. I am doing .35mL twice a day, which puts him at around .6 mg/kg per day, in the range of typical doses for chronic use. I know I probably shouldnt mess with things without the vet’s approval, but he was really struggling.

He seems to be doing OK with this dose, but still having some issues on some days. And last night I noticed he seems to be developing a cataract in one eye. So now I’m REALLY wondering if EC could be involved here. Are there any cases of cataracts that aren’t related to EC? It also seems like his arthritis has been progressing faster recently, so I’m concerned. 🙁

He got a cecal smashed all over his heel so I’m going to need to wash at least that foot because it’s dried and crusted on. He is NOT going to be pleased about that!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just to add on, i checked in with my friend at BUNS about how often she sees cataracts in older buns and she said over the last year 4 of their resident senior rabbits (i think they are all around 9 or 10) all had cataracts and tested positive for EC. She also said the new EC test is much more reliable than the old one.

Of course I’m going to a conference this week 🙄 … but will plan to get him tested when I get back.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

It’s good to have such rabbit savvy friends! At this point I believe that people in the field have more useful experience than vets.

I really hope that you can find what’s troubling him. It’s good to hear that the newer test is better, any progress in rabbit vet care is very welcome!

And about that conference: the little buggers seem to plan it! Bunnies always get a health setback when there’s something special going on. I swear: ours wait until Bas is away on business for a week or at an event hundreds of kilometres away…

 

On Christmas Eve, or Saturday night,

Us bunnies get our timing right!

Autumn storms or hail and sleet,

We won’t eat nor take a treat!

When the car is in the shop, or the phone lines are all dead…

THAT IS when we’ll need our vet!

🙄

[DanaNM]

So true about timing! Even now, I actually just went to his vet today to pick up his pain meds, but didn’t notice the eye until after I got home! And yes I’m so thankful to have rabbit savvy people I can reach out to!

Thankfully I’m just driving to the conference so if things took a turn I could get home relatively easily.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

Poor Bun Jovi. 🙁  Hopefully the adjusted dosage helps him. FWIW, cataracts can develop due to “old age” (just as it can in dogs). But the cataracts develop very slowly over time. You usually think of EC-related cataracts as developing rapidly.

[jerseygirl]

Yes, just want to echo LBJ here, the cataract could certainly be age related. Same goes for some of those rabbits at BUNS. Possible they tested positive for ec because of exposure sometime in their lifetime (which is supposedly the case for a lot of rabbits). Unless they use the test that shows active infection./flare-up.

[Meg]

Hey there, DanaNM!  Sorry for my late reply but I just wanted to say I’m so sorry about these new challenges with Bun Jovi.  I feel like he and Teddy are in a similar place lately and I’m sending hugs.  I’m really glad you increased his meloxicam, fwiw.

I’m so sorry to hear the arthritis is progressing faster too. With Teddy, it didn’t affect him much for years, and then really ratcheted up all of a sudden in May.  In my limited experience, I think the best thing you can do is home PT (move his joints hokey-pokey style, stretch and massage any limbs that are getting twisted up, etc.) to help him stay more comfortable and help slow the progression.

I’m sorry about the mashed cecals too!  I mentioned this earlier, but we’ve been blown away by how Teddy’s taken to his new frequent “spa times” (PT, massage, hygiene, etc.) these past couple of months, after years of absolutely hating to be handled.  I hope that maybe Bun Jovi will warm up to it too as he starts to recognize how it helps him.

Hugs to you both!  He’s lucky to have you.

[DanaNM]

Thanks everyone! I did make an appointment for him this week. For what it’s worth, the cataract DID seem to appear very suddenly. It wasn’t there at his last check up. So although he is old, it’s a new development.

And I was reading something that suggested that many cataracts in old rabbits may actually be due to EC. So we’ll see what the vet thinks.

I definitely need to have him re-evaluated anyway, because she keeps giving me the tiniest bottles of metacam and I need to make sure we don’t run-out while we are away on vacation next week! I’m going to try to film him having issues standing so the vet will take me more seriously.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Good luck and please keep us posted!  I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this stingy vet.  Good idea to film him!

[DanaNM]

Just got back from the vet and it was a much better experience this time. We talked through his new developments and she agreed the cataract was very noticeable (and hadn’t been there at his recent appointment), and there was a bit of haze forming in his other eye as well. She checked his eye pressure to rule out glaucoma and it was normal, so that was good!

I also showed her a video of him struggling to stand and she was agreed it was pretty bad, but she also saw that in the vid he was in good spirits and trying to eat. The vid also looks like he may have a slight head tilt, but it’s hard to tell whether it’s him scanning to see (since one eye is blind now), or him just trying to get his balance, or an actual tilt. So overall she thought it was worth trying the EC treatment. She asked if I had gotten any new rabbits recently and I realized that I brought home Cooper relatively recently (and not long before Bun’s legs started getting bad), so it’s possible he was exposed then, or through the dates we had done at the shelter. Or (as I had originally thought), he had a latent infection already and it flared up due to old age and a weakened immune system.

So we didn’t do the EC test, but are going to start panacur. She had to order the medication, hopefully it arrives tomorrow because I leave for vacation on Friday (why do buns always plan the worst times to need medical attention!?). One thing that was interesting was she said you should see an improvement in the first 3-5 days, so she wants to start with a 2 week course, and if there is improvement do the full 4 weeks. I have always heard that sometimes it takes the full 4 weeks to actually see improvement… so I’m curious to hear other’s thoughts on that.

I also told her the lower dose of metacam wasn’t really helping and she said “do what you gotta do” LOL. So I think she finally gets it, I think showing her the video helped a lot!

Bun Jovi was very good and brave during his appointment, but was not shy about telling me his disapproval when we got home. He can barely stand but can still thump when he wants to!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Whew, that does sound like a relief! Vets and other doctors can be very set in their ways, and I’m glad that she isn’t trying to taper his Metacam. Fingers crossed for the Panacur treatment!

[DanaNM]

Yes I definitely feel much better about things now! Although I’m nervous about giving him a new med while I’m gone… really hoping it arrives tomorrow so I can at least give the first dose and observe for 24 hrs.  If he won’t take it willingly then I think we are just going to have to wait till I’m back to start treatment unfortunately. I’m hoping I can have the pet sitter mix it with some mashed banana or something so he will take it voluntarily the way he does his metacam.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Aww poor little Bun Jovi! Sounds like you are making progress with treatment though which is good! Panacur is super common in buns amd I’ve never heard of side effects so I’m sure it will all be fine but understand the wanting to wait. I’m glad shes finally on board with the metacam now. I would imagine the benefits of a reliable metacam dose would outweight the potential risks for Bun Jovi as an individual.

They really do always choose the worst time! Glenns last dental was done a couple of days before I went on holiday, he was in a bad way with his food and and basically wouldn’t eat so I probably would have had to cancel if we didn’t squeeze him in just in time. Darn bunnies!

Sending good vibes to Bun Jovi

[DanaNM]

Thank you!

I’m less worried about side effects with the panacur than I am about having to actually give him meds he doesn’t like! He’s pretty wiley to handle so I wouldn’t really trust or expect a pet sitter to give him that type of med.

I might see if I can just grab some from the feed shop, I know the goat formula can be dosed for buns and tastes like apple, so I might see if that’s an option.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

That’s a good idea!  And Teddy will lick his meds off a plate if mixed with a generous squirt of simethicone, fwiw.  I hope the panacur helps, and I’m so glad the vet has come around on the meloxicam!!  Good for you for taking the video to show her.

Also: I don’t know if this would help, but fwiw, we sometimes set up a “bunnycam” (just a laptop with a webcam streaming to a private YouTube that only we access) when we have to be gone (with an OK from the petsitter who comes by to feed them) and it can be nice to be able to see how things are going.  Just an option for if it feels right.

[DanaNM]

Aww i would love a camera but unfortunately we’re going to be in a sort of camping situation without reliable internet access.

I was able to pick up some of the horse version of panacur so I’m going to try that. I talked to my friend at the rescue and she said that’s what she’s always used, and mixed with some banana baby food to make it more palatable. Hopefully he likes it!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Fingers crossed! Bun Jovi, lick that saucer clean!

And not to forget: enjoy your vacation! (Bunnies DO have an impeccable sense of timing… 🙄)

[DanaNM]

Banana baby food for the win! He licked it right off the spoon. Also the meds themselves are apple flavored so that prob helped too!

I’m glad to be able to start today just to make sure he feels OK, i know some buns can get a bit nauseous when they first start panacur.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Woohoooo!!  This is great news!  High fives to you and Bun Jovi 🙂 🙂

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Whew! Glad that he isn’t fussy this time ^_^

[DanaNM]

Just another quick update, so far so good!  I also got a new bale of hay today that all the buns are very excited about (it’s 1st cut timothy instead of the second cut), and I added an extra lower sided box to their pen. He’s eating more hay that I’ve seen him eat in a while, so I’m very pleased. 🙂 I also feel slightly bad that I didn’t give him a lower box sooner! I did always make sure to put little piles of hay near him, but this will make it easier for the pet sitters too.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

I’m glad to hear he likes it! Nothing worse than trying to force a bunny to take meds they don’t want. Even worse still – Asking a pet sitter to do it!

Since he isn’t seeing as well now, have you considered having a light on for him? I know that sounds weird, but it was somehow comforting to my buns. When they couldn’t see well, having a light on in the evening helped reassure them. I guess with cataracts, they can still see somewhat in the light.

[jerseygirl]

The increased hay-eating as you start panacur must put your mind at ease. Fingers crossed the panacur can make a difference. I’m envious you can get apple flavoured!
(((Bun Jovi)))

Good tip about lighting, LBJ. It could help distinguish contrast.

I recall also when maple developed head-tilt, I kept her in low lighting thinking it would be more pleasant with her eyes open all the time and one turned upward toward ceiling. But it turned out having the light on helped. Especially with orientating herself after a rolling episode.

[DanaNM]

That is a very good point about lighting! I was also thinking that having it more dim might help but that makes a lot of sense about contrast!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just wanted to give a quick update to say I’m back from my trip and Bun Jovi is doing well! I think there has been a slight improvement in his mobility, and he is peeing less outside of his box. I did swap the sheepette for fleece and disposable pee pads because it was too hard to wash the sheepette frequently enough (it will still be in the rotation), so I can’t tell if the change is from the lack of sheepette or an actual improvement in urinary control?

I notice him eating hay in his box and generally seems to have an easier time standing, so hopefully things continue to improve.

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[jerseygirl]

Fantastic!

Oh, I know that scenario well, not knowing what exactly to credit for positive change. 😄

Surely it is better pee control. Because wouldn’t the fleece & pee pads be just as tempting to pee on if it were by choice?

I hope you continue to see improvements. I’m glad he’s coped well on the panacur.

[DanaNM]

I think you’re right jersey, because now I remember the whole reason I switched to the sheepette was because he was peeing on the fleece all the time!

In general I’m noticing him standing more easily, which is great. We will definitely be finishing the full course of treatment in any case!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well I may have spoken too soon, because last night his mobility was terrible. It may have just been because the floor was more slippery but I’m not sure. I’m kind of at a loss. 🙁

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh Dana, I’m so sorry!  It could be that — Teddy (who had lost almost all mobility at this point) has a much harder time getting traction than he did before.  Or it could be a bad day for Bun Jovi and maybe better days will be coming?

I’m really sorry.  Do you think a cart or other device would be something he might be up for?  I think we were too late in trying the “walking” cart from Dogs2Go, but maybe a more mobile bun could get into it.  Or I’m happy to share the “towel roll skateboard” idea we tried if helpful.

Sending hugs to you and Bun Jovi, and hoping that things will look up soon.

[LBJ10]

It’s hard to know if he was improving and he is just having a bad day… or if he isn’t improving and he was just having a good day. Perhaps just having you return home was enough to perk him up a bit and make him try a little harder?

Does he pee on himself while he scoots around or does he try to direct it away from himself?

[DanaNM]

He’s pretty good about not peeing on himself because he still lifts his tail and can aim it behind him, so that’s good. And yeah, the balance of good and bad days is hard. 🙁

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just a quick update here.

Bun had a string of not great days and we were getting very worried, but we got him seen by a new vet who is SO MUCH better. We gave him a sanitary shave and adjusted his pain meds (increased metacam dosage and going to add in Tramadol, but that will arrive in a couple days), and we’re going to see how he does with that. He hasn’t lost weight which is great. We’re hoping with the adjusted pain meds and shaving his daily care will be easier and he will generally be in better spirits.

I’m also giving him some Emeraid recovery food a couple times a day which he eats willingly (and with gusto) so that’s great (he has hated every other brand of recovery food I’ve tried!).

He has 2 weeks left on Panacur, so we’ll also see if that ends up making a difference.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Thank you so much for updating, Dana!  I’m SO glad you found a much better vet — woohooo!!  That will make such a difference.  I hope the shave helps too (Teddy is rockin’ the same these days), plus the increased pain meds.  And good for him for not losing weight!   Wonderful about the new recovery food.

I’m sorry about the string of not-great days but it sounds like things are looking up for BJ!  🙂 I’m so glad to hear it.  (Teddy has also been doing better after a vet visit a couple weeks ago, and it’s another nice reminder that even when we are feeling the gloomiest about our bunnies’ outlook, they can still surprise us.)

[DanaNM]

Another small update! I’ve been away for work the past few days but my husband reports that bun has been very active and has not had any major poopy butt issues!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Woohoooo!!  Go Bun Jovi!  😀

[LBJ10]

Perhaps it’s because you’re not there! Haha!

[DanaNM]

haha! I’m sure!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

He got his first dose of Tramadol today, we’ll see how it goes! He wasn’t a huge fan of the flavor but I’ve heard that buns start liking it after a few doses… gee I wonder why 🙄

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Whoop! Keep the good news rolling! So happy to see that he’s improving, he’s such an old trooper 🥲❤️

Tramadol can make you feel really lightheaded btw. The lightest human dosage got me spinning and giggly for the first couple of days. I was supposed to cook for friends on the first day, but we ended up getting takeaway food. I was so uncoordinated that I ended with fry sauce on my nose

 

[DanaNM]

Oh my goodness Ellie! That certainly is a funny image. I checked on him a couple hours after the first dose and he was sleeping with his face smashed into the pen wall (he used to do this all the time weirdly), so he might not be that far off!

I’ve been told it can make buns “dopey” for the first few days but then they adjust… so we’ll see!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well, after doing really really well for the last three weeks, Bun has had a few not great days in a row. I think we’re getting close to the end. 🙁

Over the weekend both his back legs started splaying out to the sides again so I added in the second dose of tramadol, but that hasn’t seemed to help much.

I opted to get the x-rays the vet had suggested to see if he had a fracture or something else going on with his leg that might indicate a more severe source of pain. I’m not sure whether I thought the vet appointment would make me feel better… it didn’t. He doesn’t have any fractures or anything that would indicate a severe and acute impact to QoL… but his hip joint on the bad side is pretty messed up from the arthritis (she said if he was a human he would have had full hip replacement a long time ago).

She was fairly alarmed that even with the double dose of Tramadol he was still having trouble with his legs after doing well for a few weeks. She’s going to bump his pain meds up… but if that doesn’t help or only helps briefly again it’s probably going to be time to say goodbye since this has all been on the same trajectory.  She said when she first saw him she didn’t feel comfortable saying that but since we’re having trouble keeping up with his pain with our dosing she thinks we are probably getting close, especially given his age.  Of course it’s our call but she basically implied that she wouldn’t fight us on it at this point and to just be aware of the “slippery slope” of trying new things until you realize you’ve pushed them too far and they are suffering.

Of course when we got home he immediately started chewing a palm plate and snuggling Myra… and eating hay a bit later. Do pets get a rush of adrenaline after the vet? I’ve been reading about the death “rally” that is sometimes seen in terminal humans and dogs… Ugh.

😥

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh Dana, I’m so sorry!

How can you tell he’s in pain?  Sorry if this is naive, but is it possible the splaying is just from the arthritis / muscle weakness?  How is his appetite/affection/attention?

Again, I’m sorry I’m only speaking from experience with 1 senior bun, but Teddy’s had at least one splayed front leg, a back leg that usually folds in, and almost no ability to stand or hop since May.  When this started I was very fearful he would only be suffering / wouldn’t make it, but so far (knock on wood) he’s been doing great (re: appetite, affection, etc.)  He is on a TON of meloxicam, but still…

I’m not that experienced, but I wonder how much of what vets say has to do with their own personality/approach.  Ours happens to be very upbeat, and they’ve been super reassuring that Teddy is doing well in other ways apart from the arthritis.  So each time we’ve brought him and I’ve feared they’ll want to have The Talk with us, they’ve actually been super positive — but my point is it might just be their attitude?

Anyway, this sounds really really hard, and I’m so sorry!  Big hugs to you and Bun Jovi.

[DanaNM]

Well at the first appointment the vet thought his quality of life was still fine. But since then his appetite has tanked (eats almost no hay, barely wants salad or pellets, only wants emeraid and treats). He isn’t responsive to affection from me (he never tooth purrs anymore). He is starting to have that sort of glazed look all the time. We just bumped up his pain meds and no change really. So the rapid decline even with more pain meds is what made her mention the slippery slope. This has basically all been on the same trajectory for the last year or so, with a more drastic change over the last couple months.

He has had about 5 bad days in a row in terms of appetite and attitude. 🙁

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh my goodness, I see what you are saying now.  I’m so, so sorry.

This sounds so hard, and I’m sending you big hugs.  Bun Jovi has been so lucky to find a home with such a skilled and caring human, and I’m sure you know better than anyone how to read him.  I hope he helps in making it clear what he wants.

And maybe Myra can help too.  Athena and Teddy would sometimes be more attentive when the other had stasis when they were younger — but in the last two days of Athena’s (pretty sudden) decline, she just wanted to be alone, and would try to hide.  So Teddy gave her space, apart from one kiss he gave her during a brief little Tramadol rally the night before she passed (she had been eating nothing on her own, but after it kicked in she briefly ate a couple of willow leaves and that’s when he came and gave her a kiss on the head) — and then during the final hours he stuck by her.

So I have no idea how typical any of that is, but I hope that BJ and Myra together can help to convey what he’s feeling.

I know how heavily this weighs on you, because you are so caring.  You are doing a great job and it’s so, SO hard that we don’t have the power to fix everything for them.  Extra hugs to you and your bunnies!!

[DanaNM]

Thank you <3

Myra still looks after him, but definitely spends a lot of time away from him, which I’ve noticed as well. I hope she will stick with him at the end… I have had it go both ways with my buns, and it’s heartbreaking to see one abandon the other in their final moments, although I know it’s an evolutionary thing and I shouldn’t anthropomorphize.

I made an appointment with the mobile vet for two weeks from now… If he turns around again I can always cancel it… but I read something on reddit that struck a chord, that said “I’d rather be a week early and a day late”. Since the vet is booking two weeks out I don’t want to wait till he stops eating completely.

Ugh. this sucks. 🙁

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

This really does suck.  No two ways about it.  I’m so, so sorry.

But you’re taking such a thoughtful approach and I hope the vet appt helps ease your mind a bit for now.

That’s interesting about Myra.  On the buns not being around in their friend’s final moments, I read something convincing a while back that it’s not that they’re trying to abandon them but that they’ve already said their goodbyes.  Teddy had gotten a week or so of stasis a couple of weeks before Athena passed (she had liver and kidney failure that we didn’t catch until 2 days before the end) and I’ve wondered if that was when he realized she was nearing the end (although we didn’t pick up on anything at the time) and he was grieving that.  Maybe that’s why he held up so well, considering, when the end came.

I also wonder if they’re responding to what their friend prefers.  From what I’ve heard, some humans need their people around them at the end, while others are not able to let go until they’re alone.  So maybe bunnies vary like that too.

Either way, I believe that love (maybe not romantic attachment per se, but love) continues forever, and I believe that’s true of Bun Jovi and Myra too, fwiw.

This really sucks.  I’m so, so sorry.  I hope you can take gentle good care of yourself in this heartbreaking time.

[DanaNM]

Thank you <3

He had slightly more energy and appetite last night and this morning, and didn’t get as messy overnight, so it does seem like the pain meds are helping a bit. Still not like he was a couple weeks ago though.

It really is so hard to know what to do when they give you glimpses of their old self, but I’m keeping track of good and bad days, so we’ll just take it one day at a time.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

I’m really glad they’re helping, Dana.

Yes, it is so hard.  But you have good instincts, and it sounds like you have a good plan.  Keep us posted!  Hugs to you.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Glad to hear that the pain meds are doing something for him. It’s good that you noticed that he doesn’t purr anymore, it’s very telling. It’s the most awful decision that you have to make for your pet, but giving them dignity and sparing them suffering is the best you can do. I’m hoping that he’ll have some good days still, our thoughts are with you.

[jerseygirl]

💚

Oh Bun Jovi, we love you!

[DanaNM]

I’ve been in the field this week, but my husband reports that Bun has been eating better and in good spirits, so that’s good (still been having some bad leg days though).

I joined some “elderbuns” and “disabled buns” facebook groups and some people recommended acupuncture or cold laser therapy. I did find a vet that does acupuncture that would see him, but it’s about a 40 min drive away. My sense is that this would have been helpful to try about a year ago and I am hesitant to add more appointments and car rides for him at this point. But I did find this infrared light therapy device called LumaSoothe that I am going to try at home. It has rave reviews and there’s actually some placebo controlled studies on light therapy helping dogs, rabbits, and horses. Of course not sure if this product will work as well as light therapy at the vet, but it seems like it’s worth a shot. The vet agreed that it won’t harm. She said she used to recommend cold laser therapy at her old practice but the current vet doesn’t offer it, so she thought it was worth a shot. I get home from Maine tonight, will report back on how it goes. Some people in the reviews said they saw benefits after several days of consistent use. I think at a minimum it is warming so it should feel nice, even if it doesn’t actually do what it advertises.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

Infra red will warm  and that in itself will be soothing. Cold laser doesnt warm in itself, but it activates “stuff” in the tissue so the patient can feel local warming.

Idk what color Bun Jovi is, but normally  cold laser for use on animals has a special  lower, setting for dark fur animals. (My dog Effi had cold laser therapy for her really bad back once a week for 20 weeks).

My mum is a physiotherapist and says deep warmth will be soothing and help stiff joints and muscles, but she strongly advices against spending tons of money on devices for home use. I dont think you would spend loads of money on sth like that, but a word of caution might be of some use to other readers of the thread.

 

[DanaNM]

Thanks! Yeah this product wasn’t very expensive… it was the same price as a single acupuncture treatment would be, so I felt OK trying it out.

Bun Jovi is white, I’m not sure if it has other settings for fur color but I will definitely read the manual. I know it has 1 setting for skin related issues and another for deep tissue.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Oh nice, infrared really helps my rheumatic illness too. It’s great for relaxing muscles and loosening stiff joints.

An active infection is a contraindication, because the heat can speed up the infection process. As long as he’s free of those it’s very therapeutic.

[DanaNM]

Yes good point! I read that in the reviews so I’m glad that our vet said it should be fine to try. 🙂 I’m happy that our vet is willing to work with us to help him be more comfortable.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

Yes, good point! Heat can “fire up” an active infection, so that’s important to keep in mind, both for hooms and pets.

White is a “safe” color, it’s dark color that can cause a problem. Probably because dark absorbs heat, so the setting must be lower. Effi was dark. But you will know, he will flinch if he hates it, and short time exposure wont be intense enough to actually hurt him.

[LBJ10]

Oh, that sounds interesting. You’ll definitely have to let us know if it works. I think that would be helpful information to have.

[DanaNM]

Just did a first short treatment! He seemed very relaxed during it. I also recently learned about the “grimace scale” for rabbits through that facebook group which has been really helpful in assessing his comfort level. His nose looked especially relaxed during the treatment. Here are two versions of the scales for reference:

https://www.nc3rs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-01/NC3Rs%20Rabbit%20Grimace%20Scale%20Poster%20%28EN%29.pdf

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Just did a full 15 min light treatment on each of Bun’s hips (both his back legs are splayed) and he seemed to really like it. I petted him during and he was super relaxed and even tooth purred a little. He groomed his face after and then hopped over to chew on a palm plate.

Whether it works or not it’s at least nice to spend time with him where he’s relaxed and not angry at me (like he is during the bum baths).</p>

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Sounds wonderful Dana!

It’s very sad when you have a sick bunny and they become suspicious of you. Spending quality time like this is so precious!

[Meg]

I was on vacation when these messages came in but they made me so happy!  I’m so glad Bun Jovi is enjoying the infrared and is tooth purring again!!  Such wonderful news 🙂 🙂

[DanaNM]

Yeah! I’m not sure it’s a miracle cure just yet but he’s had a good number of good days in a row. Still needing the bum baths but his appetite and attitude have been decent!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

Sounds lovely, so nice you have found a home-treatment that he actually seems to enjoy!

[DanaNM]

It’s been a while since I’ve updated. There have been some little issues over the last few months, and so far we’ve been able to deal with everything but this time I think it’s actually quite serious and probably means it’s time to say goodbye. When I was giving him his usual bum bath he suddenly started having very labored breathing. Very loud, mouth open, nostrils flared. He calmed down after a few minutes and I was able to finish drying him, but that’s never happened before as far as I know. I was away for work this past week so I need to ask my husband if this happened at all while I was gone, he may not have noticed subtler signs.

Him being angry at me and “ornery” is one thing, but gasping for air isn’t OK. I’m going to talk to his vet tomorrow but to me this feels like a clear signal that it’s time.

😥

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh Dana, I am so so sorry to hear this!!  =(   (((hug)))   My heart sank when I read this, especially because it sounds so similar to what Teddy went through on his last day.  (Though with Teddy, he was not able to breathe completely normally that day; he would calm down and stop opening his mouth or making noise, but he would still open his top lip to get more air, and as the day went on he kept his nose increasingly raised to get more oxygen.)  I am still hoping that it’s sometime different/curable for Bun Jovi, but I totally feel you and I am so so sorry.  Please keep us posted on how things go and what your vet says.

big hugs to you and ((((((Bun Jovi))))))  !!!

[DanaNM]

Thank you Meg. <3 Yes at his age I have a feeling this means the end is near, sadly. Until now his internal functions seemed mostly fine, it was just the mobility issues. If he was a younger bun I’d have been rushing him to the ER to figure out what was going on, but at his age I would rather have a peaceful passing for him. Thankfully he returned to normal after the bath was over and ate his salad, etc.

I’ve sent his vet a message and will update when I hear back.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Got a response from the vet. Not super helpful in terms of decision making. 🙁  She said:

Dana, I am sorry you witnessed this. A stressed rabbit to the point of nostrils flaring and open mouth breathing is alarming and I know it must not have been easy. It could indicate increased pain/discomfort or that something has developed in his chest (heart disease vs neoplasia vs other). You could try slightly increasing his tramadol dosing (perhaps 0.3 mL per dosing), you could trial gabapentin (we talked about how this is a bit experimental in rabbits but may help with stress/discomfort for grooming). This could indicate that this may be his final decline. This is so hard because if it is just pain or stress, it might not be emergent, but there is a chance, if it happens again, abrupt death is a possibility. Please keep me posted.

Ugh this is very hard. He seems fine otherwise, but I’m dreading the next bum bath. Even if it is “just pain or stress”, that level of pain/stress is not acceptable for during what is now necessary routine care. And I don’t know how I would cope if he died during grooming. 😥

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh Dana, I’m so sorry!!  I totally hear you.  It is so hard.  On the positive side, it is great that he seems fine otherwise.

I’m not sure what exactly his butt bath needs are like — do you think you could get away with wet wipes plus a water mister some days?  This is what we usually did with Teddy, while doing grooming sessions on the bed (over a washable pee pad).  He’d have some stuck/soft poops in his fur that would come out with a soft rubber comb, and then we’d spray and wipe a bit. (We did this 2-4 times a day, as needed, and he didn’t seem to mind. We’d combine these sessions with massage, face grooming, and other things that he enjoyed so it was positive overall.)

For sink butt baths when there’s too much to get out in like a half dozen wipes, I’m sure you are already doing everything possible, but just on the outside chance it could be helpful, here’s what I did to try to cut down on the stress:

• Before picking him up, run the sink water till it’s moderately warm (like maybe low 90s Fahrenheit)
• Set out the pet shampoo (we used Zymox), and open the top so it can be squeezed with one hand
• Put a grippy folded towel or other material on the side of the sink for him to stand on (maybe with a microfiber cloth over it)
• Grab another microfiber cloth or two; go get your bun
• Place him on the towel facing away from you, supporting him around the ribs but otherwise letting him stand to the extent he’s able
• Run the water, pick him up with his back against you and quickly wet his hindquarters in the stream of water, using one hand to hold him around the ribs and another hand to wash off bigger poops while also supporting his bottom
• Put him back on the towel as before (holding him under the ribs with one hand)
• With your other hand, squeeze the shampoo bottle against the sink to get a tiny bit (you might rinse most off your hand before applying it)
• Now use the soapy hand to work through any areas that need it, while your bun still in the supported standing position
• Run the water again and rinse your hand
• Pick him up similarly to the initial rinse, and now do a final rinse
• Place him back on the towel and use the microfiber cloths or whatever other towels/washcloths you have on hand to quickly blot/squeeze some of the excess water
• Carry him back to his usual grooming area, and if more drying/grooming is needed, do that there (wherever he’s most comfortable).  If he enjoys a blow dryer (on the low setting), doing that at this stage can give him something to look forward to

I’m sorry, I’m sure you’re already doing all this and more!  I just hope there’s some way to help give you guys some more relatively peaceful days together. (I totally feel you about not wanting to rush him to the ER at this stage.  I’m actually really grateful that the vet tech I called on Teddy’s last day told me it didn’t sound urgent to bring him in then, because I’m glad he was able to spend his last day at home, without that kind of stress.)

Sending big hugs to you both.  Please keep us posted!

[DanaNM]

Thank you. We use baby wipes when we can, but he prob needs an actual bath at least 2 times per week. He is still very “ornery” and sometimes the bath is actually faster and easier than the wipes because he hates people touching his bum and the water gets the poop off more quickly. The labored breathing was actually once I was already done with the washing and was just trimming some of the fur from around his bum, so I’m not sure if it was more due to the handling causing pain, or his heart/lungs not being able to keep up with the stress of it all .

I do a slightly different system but the basics are the same. He’s basically unable to support himself on just his hind legs without getting his entire belly soaking wet. I think it would also cause his legs to splay out further to the sides, which I think would cause him more pain. He’s so feisty that if I tried to have him just perch on a towel he would try to get away and get all wet in the process.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Meg]

Oh, I see!  Yeah, I was basically supporting Teddy’s whole weight with my left hand under his ribs, just letting his feet touch the towel to help him feel secure.  But he was admittedly pretty mellow about butt baths most of the time.  If Bun Jovi would try to bolt, that’s a different story!

The rubber-toothed baby comb was a lifesaver for us in getting poops out of his fur, because it was gentle but very efficient — way faster than me picking them out with my fingers/wipes.  I’m so sorry.  The only other thing I can think is maybe his stress endurance is less, so maybe reducing the length of grooming sessions but doing them a bit more frequently if needed might help?  (e.g., in one session just de-poop, then in another later on trim fur?)

I’m so sorry, Dana.  I’m crossing all my fingers that this was just a blip.

(About a month before Teddy passed, I was trimming some mats while thinking “careful, careful, make sure not to cut his skin!” — and then I cut his skin a little.  It didn’t bleed, but you could see a kind of raw spot and I think I hurt him. 🙁  Thankfully we had this antimicrobial salt gel spray, Vetericyn Plus, on hand, and he healed up in a few days, but during that time he did seem more uncomfortable and didn’t eat as well.  Poor bun.  It’s so easy to do!!  I don’t mean that you did that, just saying that bunny care can be so tricky, especially with special needs.)

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