Should i give up?

[Berryismyboy]

I recently adopted a rabbit as a friend for Berry. The new rabbit is Zoey. They are the same breed and color. When I put them in any sort of neutral territory they start fighting. They do have moments of time when they lay down. However, tonight Zoey got a bad nose injury. Do I keep trying to bond them or is it best for everyone to give up?

[DanaNM]

Are they spayed/neutered? They must be for bonding to work. Also, did you do any pre-bonding (cage-swapping or litter box swapping to get them used to the other’s scent)? 

And how long have you been trying? What is the bonding space like? Have you tried stressing them? 

Need a bit more info on what you have been doing to bond them and for how long in order to answer your question. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Berryismyboy]

Started attempting to bond this past Sunday. They have never been able to be in the same carrier so they have never stress bonded. Both are spayed/neutered. Since the day I brought Zoe home to Berry they have been switching cages. The bonding space is my apartment’s kitchen. It’s a medium sized space.

[Bianca]

I would take it back a few steps and start again. They have had some fights so to start with I would completely separate them for at least a month to let them forget each other. No pre bonding or anything. Wash your hands between handling them so they don’t smell each other.

After a month start pre bonding again. Slowly. Spend at least another month on pre bonding.

Then once they are completely okay with pre bonding, start actual bonding. I would start with stress bonding. They don’t have to share a cage to start with. Have them in cages next to each other and vacuum around them or sit them on the washing machine. Kind of stress pre bonding I guess.

Then super super short bonding sessions. Even if it’s only 30 seconds to start with. Don’t give them a chance to fight. I would suggest a place like the bath or bathroom floor. Somewhere mildly uncomfortable and hard to grip. They will less likely want to fight and it will be harder if they try. Some rabbits bond better in small spaces, others need space to bond comfortably so you will have to try and see. Have plenty of separation and distraction methods available. A spaghetti strainer is great for separating grumpy buns. Or a squirt bottle, vacuum cleaner, etc. The trick is to divert before they can fight and end it on a good note. Sometimes just having them near each other, pat them for a minute then put them away. Keep it quick and simple and be prepared.

I don’t think you need to give up. Just slow down, let them forget each other, then try again very slowly.

[sarahthegemini]

Just adding that you need to let Zoe settle in properly before you even attempt bonding.

[Deleted User]

I agree with sarah. Zoe should be more comfortable with the house and with you before you introduce her to another stranger (Berry).

[Berryismyboy]

Berry acts like he is scared of Zoey and despite multiple dating spots it does not appear that they will ever be friends. Thanks for the encouragement.

[Deleted User]

Haven’t you just got this rabbit? Bonding can take a lot of time. 2 weeks isn’t sufficient. It will take your new rabbit a bit to be comfortable with you and her surroundings, and your rabbit needs more time to get used to Zoe. You don’t have to give up already. You’re just taking it too fast for them. As a general rule, rabbits should be separated and “pre bonded” for about 1 month before they have a face-to-face introduction.

[DanaNM]

Agree that you need to slow down and be more patient with them both. 

Acting scared is not necessarily bad, it takes time for them to build trust. Pre-bonding helps build trust, as does letting the new bun settle into your home for at least a couple weeks. 

Imagine a stranger walked into your  front door and said “I live here now!”. Wouldn’t you be a bit worried about that? They need time to realize the other rabbit isn’t a threat. 

Now, if they are immediately attacking each other, that is not a good sign. Some more detail on what exactly you are doing in the sessions, and more detail on their behavior would be helpful. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Berryismyboy on 8/25/2017 9:30 PM

Berry acts like he is scared of Zoey and despite multiple dating spots it does not appear that they will ever be friends. Thanks for the encouragement.

So I assume you continued to do bonding sessions despite being advised otherwise? 

[Bam]

I too think you need to be more patient. It’s not easy to be patient (I’m not a naturally patient person myself), but with buns it’s pretty much the only way and it does pay off in the end. Don’t let them build up more aggression towards each other, take time out and then start again.

[joea64]

Echoing the others, you basically need to go back to square one and start over with a pre-bonding process where the two bunnies can’t make physical contact with each other but are in easy sight and smell range so that they have the chance to get used to each other and forget hard feelings from previous hostilities. Bonding is one thing that you simply can’t rush. Take my own case, which is actually an instance of a human building a bond with two rabbits with an established bond; I’ve had my two buns for precisely one week as of today. I’ve made faster progress than I anticipated, likely because one of them is already very friendly by nature to begin with, but I expect the process to still take several weeks at minimum even if I don’t make any goofs that put temporary roadblocks in the way. I’ve heard that the most successful bonds are between littermates, who’ve been with one another literally since birth, but even littermates still have to go through a phase of physical separation when they reach sexual maturity and need to be spayed or neutered so that they can be successfully bonded to other rabbits.

[Berryismyboy]

My current strategy during the bonding process is: I start with them on top of the washing machine while the washer goes through the spin cycle (this is my method of stress bonding since Berry refuses to share his carrier); I then take them to my bathroom and put them in the bathtub. They usually fight on top of the washer, in the bathtub and eventually they fight in the kitchen which is the last place of the bonding. After their series of dates I switch the enclosure they were in.

[DanaNM]

Ok, repeated again, please please take a break from bonding and let them calm down. You are risking injuring your rabbits at this point. 

Once you start bonding again, do not let them fight!  Use a large space so they can get away from each other. Right now they feel trapped and have no choice but to fight.  

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Mikey]

Theyre fighting because youve taught them to fight one another. Note that rabbits will fight to the death if not stopped. If you want them to stop fighting, you need to completely separate them (different rooms, completely out of sight, sound, and smell). If you want one to severely injure the other or possibly kill them, continue what you are doing.

[Bam]

berry, the stress bonding method you’re using can sometimes work, but in your case it seems to be having the opposite effect. The idea behind stressbonding is that the rabbits could turn to each other for comfort. In your case this doesn’t seem to be happening. It’s rather like your rabbits fight desperately because they associate severe unpleasantness (for example sitting on top of a spinning washing machine) with each each other. This is the biggest risk with stress bonding, and keeping it up will only make matters worse.

Bonding rabbits is in no way an easy task. All rabbits can’t be bonded. Some rabbits prefer to be solo buns.

[Berryismyboy]

Posted By bam on 8/28/2017 1:20 AM

berry, the stress bonding method you’re using can sometimes work, but in your case it seems to be having the opposite effect. The idea behind stressbonding is that the rabbits could turn to each other for comfort. In your case this doesn’t seem to be happening. It’s rather like your rabbits fight desperately because they associate severe unpleasantness (for example sitting on top of a spinning washing machine) with each each other. This is the biggest risk with stress bonding, and keeping it up will only make matters worse.

Bonding rabbits is in no way an easy task. All rabbits can’t be bonded. Some rabbits prefer to be solo buns.

I know some rabbits prefer to be solo and I am thinking Berry is one of them.

[Bam]

I didn’t manage to bond my bunnies Yohio and Bam. Yohio had been living feral – maybe that’s why he was so belligerent. He bit Bam’s eyelid rather badly during a bonding-session. After that I stopped trying to bond them, it just wasn’t worth risking their health.

There are no professional bonders where I live, but I know there are in some places in the USA and the UK. Our member Vienna Blue in France had her bunnies bonded by a pro bonder (in the UK), and that turned out very well. But I don’t know if her buns ever fought really badly.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Berryismyboy on 8/28/2017 6:49 AM

Posted By bam on 8/28/2017 1:20 AM

berry, the stress bonding method you’re using can sometimes work, but in your case it seems to be having the opposite effect. The idea behind stressbonding is that the rabbits could turn to each other for comfort. In your case this doesn’t seem to be happening. It’s rather like your rabbits fight desperately because they associate severe unpleasantness (for example sitting on top of a spinning washing machine) with each each other. This is the biggest risk with stress bonding, and keeping it up will only make matters worse.

Bonding rabbits is in no way an easy task. All rabbits can’t be bonded. Some rabbits prefer to be solo buns.

I know some rabbits prefer to be solo and I am thinking Berry is one of them.

Berry,

So what will you be doing with the other rabbit then?

Honestly, you don’t have to give up but if you aren’t going to do the process correctly, then it’s best for your buns that you just stop trying. They need time. As has been stressed to you by so many members. My rabbits have been living across from each other separated by a gate for a month. This is what is necessary to reduce the urge to attack as soon as they see the other rabbit. If you aren’t willing to take it slow, then don’t bond them at all. Period. Because they will hurt each other.

[Berryismyboy]

Posted By BunNoob on 8/28/2017 7:33 AM

Posted By Berryismyboy on 8/28/2017 6:49 AM

Posted By bam on 8/28/2017 1:20 AM

berry, the stress bonding method you’re using can sometimes work, but in your case it seems to be having the opposite effect. The idea behind stressbonding is that the rabbits could turn to each other for comfort. In your case this doesn’t seem to be happening. It’s rather like your rabbits fight desperately because they associate severe unpleasantness (for example sitting on top of a spinning washing machine) with each each other. This is the biggest risk with stress bonding, and keeping it up will only make matters worse.

Bonding rabbits is in no way an easy task. All rabbits can’t be bonded. Some rabbits prefer to be solo buns.

I know some rabbits prefer to be solo and I am thinking Berry is one of them.

Berry,

So what will you be doing with the other rabbit then?

Honestly, you don’t have to give up but if you aren’t going to do the process correctly, then it’s best for your buns that you just stop trying. They need time. As has been stressed to you by so many members. My rabbits have been living across from each other separated by a gate for a month. This is what is necessary to reduce the urge to attack as soon as they see the other rabbit. If you aren’t willing to take it slow, then don’t bond them at all. Period. Because they will hurt each other.

The thing is I only have a month to bond them. The shelter I adopted from only does returns within a month of adoption.

[joea64]

I recommend you get in touch with the Missouri House Rabbit Society:

http://mohrs.org/

You’re in Olathe, Kansas, if I understand right, which is part of the greater Kansas City metro area. From a glance at their website I believe that’s exactly the area MOHRS serves, across both states. Also check the list of rabbit rescue groups serving the state of Kansas:

http://rabbit.rescueshelter.com/Kansas

I firmly believe they’ll be able to help you, or direct you to someone who can.

[Deleted User]

I know the rspca (uk) have a bonding scheme where they allow approx 6 weeks for you to bond your rabbits at home as they prefer this to ‘speed dating’. They will loan out extra pens etc to help you with this. They also have someone make regular checks with how it is going throughout. They do however, acknowledge that some cases may take longer than others and ensure you that they will be there to support you as long as needed. As said, the rspca advise for 6 weeks which they say is 2 weeks at least for new bun to settle, 2 weeks bonding sessions and another 2 weeks to consolidate the relationship. I agree that 1 month is definitely not a great timescale and is probably adding to the pressure.

Do you know this bunnies history because who knows how many times this bun has been ‘loaned out’. This probably doesn’t make bonding any easier if they have potentially been in this situation before. They might have negative associations with other rabbits especially with it being so rushed.

[joea64]

I’ll repeat: You (the OP) need to contact the local House Rabbit Society chapter or the rabbit rescue in Kansas located closest to you (I gave the links in my previous post). I think you may have gotten bad advice from the animal shelter – a lot of animal shelters, while well-intentioned, do not have specialized expertise on rabbits – and you really need to contact people in your area who have better knowledge. The HRS and local rabbit rescues have people on staff and associated with them who are expert in rabbit bonding and will be able to give you much better advice than that animal shelter, and will be able to work with you and your buns in person as opposed to us here, since all we can do is advise you over a long distance.

[DanaNM]

Posted By joea64 on 8/28/2017 10:16 AM

I recommend you get in touch with the Missouri House Rabbit Society:

http://mohrs.org/

You’re in Olathe, Kansas, if I understand right, which is part of the greater Kansas City metro area. From a glance at their website I believe that’s exactly the area MOHRS serves, across both states. Also check the list of rabbit rescue groups serving the state of Kansas:

http://rabbit.rescueshelter.com/Kansas

I firmly believe they’ll be able to help you, or direct you to someone who can.

I think this is very good advice. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

Bonding isn’t easy. If a shelter tells an adopter they have one month to accomplish bonding, I think it’s reasonable for the adopter to believe a month will be enough. In some cases it is enough. However, for many adult buns it’s not.

Berry, I think Joea has given you sound advice. The HRS is trustworthy. The next best thing would imo be to consider returning Zoe to the shelter. It’d be very sad, though. But both rabbits are now deeply suspicious of each other. It’s not your fault, but it didn’t work out like you wanted it to and believed it would. Some buns are a mismatch. Some buns are happier as solo buns.

[BB Administrator]

Stepping in to prevent this from going downhill. Posts that break the rules have been and will be deleted. Stay respectful or find another thread.

Berryismyboy – I know you are newer to rabbits and many of us made mistakes in the beginning with our very first rabbit (and bonding).
Luckily there are more resources out there today but still a lot of misinformation, as well as differing of opinions about what is best — because what may have worked for one bunny pair may cause problems for another.

We had one member DarkusMark I believe (a long while back) who tried to bond his rabbits for a long time. Nothing seemed to work, and they fought hard. He took them to SaveAbunny.org Rescue and they kept them there for a few days and they bonded. (Hopefully I am remember this right). It was such a relief for him because he thought it was hopeless. Doesn’t mean your bunnies will bond – so this is a choice only you can really make once you weigh in the advice and opinions.

I think it’s important to also note that many rabbit rescues do offer to take the bunny back with the stipulation that you will try another bunny to bond. I don’t think this means that the person is callous if they do decide to return, instead of just keeping them separate.   Even many rescues understand that it may not be ideal for two bunnies to be separated out forever (if both bunnies could benefit from just finding the right pair.  And not everyone wants to then take on more bunnies to do that.   Each situation is different for what may be best. I have been in all three situations at different times. (Permanently separated, single bunny, bonded pair).

“Bunny dating” is typically what I have had my bunnies go through — I take my bunny to the rescue. He or she meets different bunnies and the rescue can read body language and help determine which might be the best fit. You still have to have patience and take the time to do bonding sessions at home but it can be helpful to start out with a match that has a better chance. 

I think you have been given good advice that offers a couple of different angles. You can reach out to HRS for help to bond, you can talk to the shelter for more time, you can return the bunny Zoey may have a chance with someone else. But if you do decide to bond again, with Zoey (after a break) or later with another bunny, know it takes time. IF bonding was easy, we wouldn’t have a whole section dedicated to it.  

Helloworld!!

[Berryismyboy]

I have contacted the HRS. I will keep you all updated when I hear back.

[Azerane]

That’s great I really hope that they can help you out with bonding. It would be great to see a positive result

[Berryismyboy]

MOHRS wrote back to me today. The person sent a powerpoint that went over bonding I had already been through that powerpoint as it is available through the house rabbit website. In addition, I believe I have done everything listed in the powerpoint. The other point mentioned was that they are having a meeting September 9th and would be able to do a bonding session there with Berry and Zoey. Should I let them try? Would it be worth it if nothing I have done has worked?

[joea64]

Posted By Berryismyboy on 8/29/2017 5:32 PM
MOHRS wrote back to me today. The person sent a powerpoint that went over bonding I had already been through that powerpoint as it is available through the house rabbit website. In addition, I believe I have done everything listed in the powerpoint. The other point mentioned was that they are having a meeting September 9th and would be able to do a bonding session there with Berry and Zoey. Should I let them try? Would it be worth it if nothing I have done has worked?

Yes, definitely go to the meeting. At the very least, you’ll be able to make contact with other house-rabbit people in your area and, very possibly, when they meet Berry and Zoey they’ll be able to figure out what the issue is and help, or even help you find another rabbit if it develops that those particular two just don’t get on with each other. If worse comes to worst, Zoey will be able to find a good new home (a “rehome”, in rabbit-rescue parlance) through MOHRS’ good offices than might be possible through the shelter.

I think the opportunity to network with other house-rabbit owners, as well as caretakers and educators, will be particularly valuable. I intend to stay in close touch with the Friends of Rabbits people throughout my buns’ entire lifetimes, which (knock wood!) will be a decade or more. The art of keeping house rabbits is still very much a work in progress, so it’s not something anyone can do alone.

[Berryismyboy]

So I have made the decision that Zoey will stay even if I cannot get her and Berry to bond. However, I still am going to try to bond them. I think it would be good for both rabbits to have a friend if possible.

[Berryismyboy]

I did a bonding session with Berry and Zoey today. Neither of them fought in either of the locations I had them in. I think the whole session lasted about five minutes. I carried them in an empty recycling bin and then had them in the kitchen. When they were in the recycling bin they were next to each other and peaceful. Then in the kitchen they each retreated to one corner and stayed there.

[joea64]

That’s a good start. Keep the next few bonding sessions short, and as they develop more of a sense of familarity and comfort with one another, then you can make the sessions longer. Always be sure to end each session on a positive note and remember that behaviors such as nipping and mounting are normal ways of establishing the social hierarchy between the pair. Just be sure to be ready to step in if they exhibit signs of real aggressiveness toward one another. Also, the MOHRS meeting was today – did you manage to make it there?

[Berryismyboy]

I did not manage to make the MOHRS meeting today but hopefully I can make one in the next few months. At the end of each session regardless of what happened I put the two rabbits next to each other and pet them both. 

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