Should I feed senior bunny alfalfa?

[Sterling]

Hi all. Fresno, who we assume is a senior bunny and has arthritis (now on daily meloxicam for it), is having trouble gaining weight and keeping it on. I had to stop feeding him greens because it was upsetting his tummy and causing mushy poops. He seems to have a sensitive tummy in general. I just started him on Oxbow senior pellets so that might help a little but my question is is it okay to feed him some alfalfa in addition to his normal timothy and orchard? I’ve tried every flavor of critical care to try and help too but he refuses to eat any of them.

[Bam]

Alfalfa is recommended for some senior buns that have difficulty keeping weight on. The high protein content is good for old bun that need extra to maintain their muscle mass. The thing that’s considered problematic about alfalfa for adult buns is the high calcium content. If you see very thick white pee residue as a result of the alfalfa you should modify the amount given. Excess calcium can lead to soft tissue calcification in adult rabbits (even though the bulk of the surplus gets peed out). This is because the rabbit’s body takes up all dietary calcium, the uptake is not tightly  regulated as it is in most mammals incl humans. (I had a bun that had too high serum calcium, but he was chonky. It wasnt due to alfalfa though and it normalized with dietary changes and weight loss.)

[Sterling]

Hmm he has had problems with urine sludge/excess calcium in the urine in the very near past so that worries me a bit. I’ll start off with just mixing a little with his regular hay. He shares everything with his wife so I also have to worry about her calcium intake but she’s also considered a senior so hopefully she’ll be fine.

[Bam]

Bit tricky if he already is prone to some sludge 😕. I’m assuming you have tried adding some rolled oats and or sunflower seeds to his diet? It was my go-to with my hard keeper elderbun who I had to struggle to keep over 1500 grams (roughly 1 lb). He also got some carrot every day, although not a lot because its obv sugary.

[Sterling]

Ohh no I actually forgot about oats! How many of those and sunflower seeds do you think I should give him a day? I’d definitely rather try something that doesn’t cause excess calcium first.

[Bam]

Maybe start with a teaspoon once or twice daily? He is a rather big rabbit, my rabbit was tiny. But since he was a solo bun (couldnt be neutered due to his health issues), and had a tiny appetite, I could free feed him, so he always had a small bowl with oats available. As for sunflower seeds I gave like a pinch per day. I also tried almond shavings with him, but he much preferred sunflower seeds. I believe the fatty acids in seeds and almonds can be v beneficial for skinny older buns.

[Sterling]

Okay thanks a bunch, I’m gonna try it and maybe report back in a month or so 😊 Assuming he eats them lol

[Bam]

Please do report back! It’s not like he’ll immediately fatten up from such a small daily amount, but it could help him  maintain muscle mass, plus provide him with good energy. Oats seem to give rabbits more energy than the “worth” in calories. And activity is o c good for muscles, circulation and the GI system.

ETA: They quick energy release is apparently due to the high levels of phosporus in oats. The calcium/phosphorus ratio in animal feed is v important.

[Sterling]

I will for sure, and good to know! Also something I’ve realized with him is that I think I have to shave him like once a year in order for his fur to look good and healthy. I got him after he was shaved and when it grew back his fur looked great, but over the past 6 months or even a year his fur has just constantly been in a state of moulting/little tufts all over sticking out that couldn’t fall out on their own. His hair is sooo thick that brushing/combing barely helps and the clippers I have can’t handle it well either lol. I don’t know if this is a normal californian rabbit thing or if he’s mixed with some breed that’s used for their fur. He doesn’t look mixed but I dunno.

[Bam]

I dont know what type of fur a Californian should have, but some daily sunflower seeds could perhaps help with fur quality. Sunflower seeds have a very good mix of fatty acids. Essential fatty acids are essential (not surprisingly) for the workings of the bunny nervous system to, I recently learned from an HRS online lecture. Seeds and nuts are of course not good for plump/fat rabbits, they are high in calories, but for a hard keeper bun they are likely great.

[Sterling]

So far the sunflower seeds don’t seem to be helping much, if at all, for his weight. I can tell his arthritis is bothering him despite the daily meloxicam and he’s been sleeping a lot more (he’s wobbly and every time he gets up, before he starts hopping, he stretches his legs out behind him and then kind of just drags them up. Not just once in a while but every single time.) I looked at pictures of him from 3 years ago and it’s sad to see how clean his feet and bum were and how healthy his fur and weight looked. He may be much older than I had thought, and I don’t know how much time we have left with him. 🙁 I keep wondering if there’s something I can do for him that I’m just not thinking of but if there is, I don’t know what.

[DanaNM]

It’s so hard to watch our babies age before our eyes. 🙁

He was really so lucky you found him, you gave him a new life and another chance! He did seem young before, but I bet you are right in that he is older than you thought.

There was a supplement called myristol that helped my bridge bunny Bertha with her arthritis, so you might give that a try (it’s a pelleted feed that you give just a tiny amount each day). Has it already been suggested to supplement him with a recovery food? I gave Bun Jovi a product called Emeriaid Herbivore Sustain 3 x daily during his last 6 months and it really helped him keep his weight up (he had basically stopped eating hay by that point so this product 100% kept him alive). He loved it and would eat it with gusto (while he hated critical care!), so I would give it a try if you haven’t yet, they sell it in small pouches so you can try it without committing to a huge bag.

I also used to give BJ the “old bones mix” from Floppers Garden, they sell it in the BB store (it’s sometimes out of stock so I had an alert set on it). He did love it and I think it also helped him before his EC symptoms got too bad.

If you aren’t seeing improvements with the meloxicam, talk to your vet about the dosage and frequency to make sure it’s high enough. He may also benefit from adding tramadol if his arthritis progresses beyond what meloxicam can help with (BJ got both and I saw huge improvements in his quality of life with the tramadol).

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[frenchfried]

I don’t know if anyone saw my post but I deleted it because I went off on a tangent lol.  My baby is 11 yo, having the worst arthritis of his life after the worst and longest period of stasis we have ever experienced.  (He’s usually fine after 1-5 hours of in home care = massages, simethicone, and more belly rubs).  He lost a pound according to the ER where he stayed over night then another 1/3 lb when he got weighed at the Urgent Care vet.  I thought he was dehydrated but it’s just a ton of weight loss.  He is still on gut mobility meds after almost a week.  All the vets we’ve seen are against Alfalfa, even timothy/alfalfa based formulas like Sherwood Free pellets (for bunnies who don’t like to eat hay).  I’m wondering how I can put weight back on him.  I will reread the thread carefully, I’m just deliriously tired after these medical emergencies this past week.  Sorry about my post!  (I deleted it out but was babbling about the Assisi loop and things like ozone lol).

[DanaNM]

Hi frenchfried, I think your post would get more attention if you start a new thread. With it buried in the replies of this thread it could be hard for people to notice!

I’m very sorry your bun is poorly. 🙁 When my senior started declining I had a lot of success with the product Emeraid Herbivore Sustain. I would recommend trying that or another recovery food to help put weight on him, even once he is eating on his own. Supplemental feeding with Emeraid (or Critical Care, or the Sherwood recovery food) will help a lot, and those products are formulated for that purpose.

Side note, when my bun hit 13 his arthritis got very bad. It was complicated by EC which we didn’t diagnose at first but that caused hind limb weakness. My bun only had a very slight head tilt but would do this circling motion when trying to get his legs under him. If you are noticing any weakness in the hind limbs, incontinence, head tilt, cataracts, or any other neurological signs you should ask your vet about EC.

You should also ask your vet about daily pain meds for his arthritis. We did metacam and tramadol for my bun. Once we got the tramadol dose dialed in it helped him greatly.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

Dana has given you good advice. It does seem like he was older than anyone thought when you got him, but I had a dog who wasn’t even 9 years old when she got bad arthritis.

As Dana says, you could talk to your vet about the meloxicam dosage. Meloxicam has a quite wide “therapeutic window” meaning you can safely increase the dose quite a lot. My bun Vilde was on a high dose for a long time (1.2 mg/kilo body weight twice per day) as per his vet’s ordination. One of our dear members had her geriatric bun Teddy on an even higher daily dose, also as per her vet’s ordination.

The sunflower seeds could have helped him not loose too much weight, even if it didnt restore his weight. It is a high calorie/high protein food. If nothing else he could have found them yummy. Little things like that can help brighten the days of the elderly, be it humans or animals. It wont heal anything, of course, but it could help maintain quality of life.

 

[LBJ10]

Aww, poor Fresno. 🙁  I’m sorry you haven’t seen much improvement. I agree with the others. You should revisit the dosage with the vet. Sometimes they just need a higher dose and bunnies can actually safely have quite a bit. Obviously, it isn’t without it’s risks. But when bunnies get old, the benefits often outweigh the risks when the goal is simply to keep them comfortable.

[Sterling]

Thank you guys so much for your kind words and suggestions. <3 I’m going to order the Myristol ASAP and also try the Emeriaid (because yeah, he turns his nose up to all of the Critical Care flavors), and I will get in touch with the vet to inquire about the dose. He is currently getting 1mL of meloxicam a day. Thankfully he currently still has one heck of an appetite and is constantly begging for pellets (him and Nora get 1/2 cup a day but I think she lets him eat more than her, not sure if I should increase this amount?) and aside from the arthritis and deep sleeps he goes into, he’s very perky and happy. Every now and then he’ll do little head binkies/spins.

 

I’m a horse gal too and we feed the hard keeper horses beet pulp to keep weight on, and I sometimes see it in some rabbit supplements and foods. Has anyone ever heard of feeding beet pulp to rabbits straight up?

[Sterling]

Is it at all possible that something else is it play here? An internal parasite or something? I just… find it very strange that he’s as skinny as he is with how well he eats. I can feel his bones. And his fur quality… my god. It’s so hard to explain but basically I groom him (pluck him because that’s the only way to get his fur out) twice a week and his fur is just in a constant state of falling out in clumps. He’s like… in a constant molt almost. I can make a whole new bunny every time I pluck him. This doesn’t seem like a normal occurrence even for elderly bunnies. And like I said, personality wise he’s still very lively, demanding of food, loves to snuggle with his bun wife, does the occasional binky, etc. So these things don’t really add up to me.

[Sterling]

Alternatively from parasites, could this be some side effect from all the dang ivermectin his previous vet had me give him for the ear mites over like a 1.5-2 year timespan?

[Bam]

There are several things that could be going on with a rabbit that cant put on weight despite eating properly, most of them are not good. Rabbits are in many respects similar to horses -theyre both hindgut fermenters. Some vets even call rabbits tiny horses 🥰 I dont know if this could be some sort of malabsorption issue? What would you suspect was going on if he were a horse?

It’s wonderful that he’s happy and has a good appetite!

[Sterling]

With horses we typically suspect worms and/or ulcers first. I’ve never heard about buns getting ulcers and I don’t know how he would have worms or any kind of parasite without the other buns having them/showing signs of it too. I suppose I’ll bring him to the vet to have blood work done and maybe bring in a fecal sample as well, assuming that’s how they test for parasites? If it all shows as normal I’ll have to get x-rays done which I’ve been avoiding because they have to sedate him, but the weight loss is getting too serious at this point.

[Sterling]

(Moving this comment to where I meant to put it)

[Bam]

I was just asking about horses bc you said you’re used to horses, I hope you dont mind! I have horse friends that have helped me understand my buns better. I get wonderful hay that they grow themselves from them.

Here deworming is not recommended unless you observe actual worms in their poop, and even then, worms are not considered a health threat except in baby buns. Serious infestations tend to manifest in a big belly and skinny body. There are, however, parasites that cant be seen with the naked eye, such as e cuniculi and coccidia. Maybe you could ask your vet about the parasitic pressure in your particular area?

Ivermectin is effective against some internal parasites. Fenbendazole is used here for deworming (one dose, then another after 2-3 days) but some vets say its useless bc rabbits will be reinfected by eating their own cecotropes. Sensitivity to parasites can be individual and dependant on age and also genetics, which would explain why one bun becomes symptomatic while the other ones are just fine.

I’m reluctant to write this for obvious reasons, but other causes for inexplicable weight loss could be the big C, or organ malfunction (heart, liver, kidneys), or possibly vascular stroke. We have had members whose buns have had a ravenous appetite post one or more vascular strokes, without any weight gain. This is sometimes seen in elderly humans as well.

I had an elderly hard keeper bun, but his weight issues were due to malabsorption -he had awful teeth so he couldnt chew his food properly. I had to supplement him with daily CC. He wouldnt eat his CC from a plate, but since he was a very laid back and friendly little one, he came hopping for his evening syringe of CC when he heard me prepping it in the kitchen.

I’ve alerted the mod team to this thread for more ideas.

 

[Sterling]

No I totally understand you asking. 🙂 It’s also why I thought of giving him some soaked shredded beet pulp since that’s what we give to the horses but I can’t find any solid cases of people giving it to their buns for weight management and having success with it.

He did go through a month course of panacur for possible e. cuniculi but I didn’t really see much of a difference in him at the end of it. He’s also had his teeth checked and the vet said they look very good, albeit quite yellowed from age I guess, and he’s shown no signs of being in discomfort while eating.

I’m unfamiliar with vascular strokes – is there a way to test for it or how is it diagnosed? And would organ malfunction show up in bloodwork? I appreciate your help and insight and you alerting the mods. Even if in the end it ends up being devastating news and not something treatable, I would just like to get to the bottom of what’s causing the skinniness so I can properly help him in one way or another.

[Bam]

Bloodwork is considered a very good diagnostic tool for rabbits. It can tell a lot about organ function and whether there’s an active infection. You should preferably have a rabbit savvy (or at least rabbit interested) vet to interpret the findings. I once had bloodwork done at a non-rabbit vet, and they were not very good at interpreting them, but when I had to take the rabbit to a rabbit savvy vet a few days later, the first clinic emailed the test results over.

X rays can show gross organ abnormalities and some solid tumors.

I dont know if there is a test for past vascular strokes in rabbits. Structural brain damage could be seen on a CT or MRI  but I doubt it’d make a difference for treatment and it is obv pricey. The suspected cases of vascular strokes in rabbits that Ive heard of have exhibited signs like the rabbit running around in circles or walking sideways like a crab, due to one-sided weakness. The symptoms then subsided pretty much completely rather quickly, within minutes or hours, which they wouldnt have if the neuro signs were due to e cuniculi.

Panacur (fenbendazole) is effective against several internal parasites. Here’s Medirabbit’s list of bunny safe dewormers and what worms they are effective against:

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Anti_parasitics/safe_antiworms.htm

Rabbits can get tapeworms, but it seems very rare in house rabbits.

I looked up beet pulp for rabbits. It seems common to feed beet pulp to meat rabbits (I know you know we dont discuss meat production here) in order to optimize weight gain. I found a study that concluded that a small amount of beet pulp seemed to aid weight gain in rabbits, but it should be beet pulp without molasses. A high inclusion of beet pulp in the diet of growing rabbits seemed detrimental and counter-productive -but the study was made on young, growing rabbits. I’m not linking to the study bc its sad, but its available on PubMed https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ I used the search words rabbits beet pulp.

I think what you need is a good rabbit savvy vet that you could discuss Sterling with. A non-rabbit savvy vet would probably not be of much use in his case. Sadly really good rabbit vets dont exactly grow on trees 🙁

[PatrickW]

My bunny Metoo, a white mini-lop, will be ten years old in October. We have been very careful with the types of food we feed him since his purchase almost ten years ago at the age of 8 weeks. We mostly feed him oaten hay, Oxbow adult rabbit pellets and some veggies after he became an adult. But over the past month or so he has been losing weight, from 1.8 kilos to 1.53 kilos. We took him to the best vets in Sydney, Sydney Exotics and Rabbit Vets in Artarmon (Dr David Vella is best known rabbit specialist in Sydney). They performed urine test, blood test and X-ray on him and found nothing unusual. His dental check result was also excellent. I gave him a bit more lucerne hay (known as alfafa in North America) but the vets advised against feeding this type of hay to adult rabbits because of the high calcium content and recommended feeding him Oxbow young rabbit pellets to help him put on weight.

 

I did Google search and read that feeding rolled oats may help rabbits gain weight. I have been doing this for a few weeks but so far have had no success. I have been feeding him Oxbow senior rabbit pellets besides hay, because I saw this type of Oxbow pellets when I went to the store to buy Oxbow young rabbit pellets.

 

Metoo is almost as active as before and his appetite is definitely as excellent as before. I wonder if anyone else has encountered the same problem and how it was solved successfully if it was dealt with successfully. Thanks.

[Sterling]

Small update: I have taken Fresno to yet another different vet, this is the third one I am trying, and so far she seems like the best out of them all. He has now confirmed to have a UTI… you know, something I tested for months ago because I suspected he had one but the vet I was going to at the time said everything looked fine. Then the second vet after that one brushed off my concerns and didn’t run a urine test. So now Fresno has possibly had a UTI for months and months and I’m trying not to be too angry about it but I feel so awful that he may have been suffering for this long. He’s been prescribed Bactrim and I hope so badly that this fixes multiple issues he’s been having (low fur quality, weight loss, etc.) If there’s anything anyone thinks I should do in addition to the urine test and Bactrim I’m all ears. I’m so worried that because he’s potentially had this UTI for a long time that something worse could have come of it as a result. I just want my baby to feel better and be healthy again. 🙁

[Bam]

I’m glad you’ve got a better vet now and that he’s been diagnosed so you can treat the UTI! Hopefully he’ll feel a lot better soon.

I dont know if there’s anything else you could do besides the bactrim. Make sure he stays hydrated, of course, f ex by serving him his daily greens wet. Bactrim can lower a bun’s appetite, so keep an eye on that of course.

[LBJ10]

Thank you for the update! I’m glad you were able to get a diagnosis, albeit a lot later than it should have been.

I think it probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to continue with pain relief. Otherwise, as long as the bacteria is sensitive to the Bactrim, it should take care of the infection.

[Sterling]

Thanks for mentioning the appetite thing, I don’t think I’ve seen him eat much hay today so I’ll accommodate for that. I will continue the meloxicam too. Thank you both. 🙂 I caught him doing a couple binkies today, actual in the air binkies and not just head binkies, which he hasn’t done in a while. Hopes are still high this will help him.

[Author]

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