Should I even try bonding my two girls? (Edit: No)

[KytKattin]

I get nervous just thinking about it! Eclipse is big, and quick to attack. Nova isn’t slow to start something either, though she is at least 2lbs smaller. Introducing dogs is so much easier! I wish I could turn them into dogs to bond them. Part of me wants to do it just to prove to myself that I can bond rabbits that don’t seem like they could ever bond. They sometimes still go at eachother through the bars. It’s been 6 months since I got Eclipse! Opinions? I think it could make them happier, but at the same time, they might both end up handicapped rabbits…

 

Edit: So I took them to my local HRS meet at a Petco and we tried bonding them for about 2 hours. Eclipse mostly wanted to run around and take over the store, while Nova did not like it at all at first. Unfortunately, Eclipse just became more and more aggressive as time went on. All Nova wants is love, and all Eclipse wants to do is attack her for no obvious reason, as Nova really is very submissive. Essentially, the conclusion that we all came to was that Eclipse was a people rabbit, Nova was a rabbit rabbit, and Eclipse just won’t do well with other rabbits. Eclipse even tried to attack a rabbit they had there for adoption. It doesn’t seem possible at all to make Eclipse okay with another rabbit.

They did give me the number of a vet that might be able to permanetly remove the molars that give Hubble problems though, and at a price that I could possibly afford now. If I can fix Hubble, he could live with Nova, and Eclipse could just be with her people. The possibility of a trio seems unlikely.

The HRS was very kind though, and are a great resource for me! Such nice people there to help.

[RabbitPam]

KytKattin, I assume they are both spayed, right? If not, that’s the first step, so both don’t have hormones playing a part in their behavior.

Since you’re in CA, you might be near the shelter that Markus brought Maryanne and Dono to for a week of bonding. He knew a specialist who made huge progress when he couldn’t get them to bond after a long effort. It was successful. Maybe you could email him via our Message Center and ask the name and location of them. Otherwise, you could read his bonding story – it’s very long, but really helps to see how a difficult bond can ultimately succeed.

[KytKattin]

Oh yes. They have both been spayed for a long time.

I read a good part of his bonding effort. The big difference that I have noticed though is that he had one rabbit that was antagonistic, and the other was submissive. I have two girls that both want to be dominate… I should maybe still call the bonders though. It is currently out of my price range, but maybe they have some additional tips. Hm…. Or maybe I just need to go and try it at least once and see what happens. They might surprise me!

[jerseygirl]

Or maybe I just need to go and try it at least once and see what happens. They might surprise me!

Yes, what do you have to lose? I think an intro in neutral space is worth a try. Maybe have someone extra on hand if you need to separate them. Things can be very different once they’re in unfamiliar space.

[KytKattin]

Posted By jerseygirl on 01/10/2010 07:19 PM

Or maybe I just need to go and try it at least once and see what happens. They might surprise me!

Yes, what do you have to lose?

 

And ear? lol. Well I’ll give it a try tomorrow morning. Bathtub maybe? We have a normal tub, and a giant one that can hold two people. It is also very slippery. Excellent. Right now I wish there was an evil smiley face…

[mrmac]

I would try a neutral territory session. Part of actually “jumping in” to the bonding is finding out what makes each of them tick- what sets them off, what stresses them, learning to read more of their signals will help since they are both wanting the dominant female role.

[Deleted User]

Posted By KytKattin on 01/10/2010 03:15 PM

I get nervous just thinking about it! Eclipse is big, and quick to attack. Nova isn’t slow to start something either, though she is at least 2lbs smaller. Introducing dogs is so much easier! I wish I could turn them into dogs to bond them. Part of me wants to do it just to prove to myself that I can bond rabbits that don’t seem like they could ever bond. They sometimes still go at eachother through the bars. It’s been 6 months since I got Eclipse! Opinions? I think it could make them happier, but at the same time, they might both end up handicapped rabbits…

Handicapped by bonding you mean? No, not if you are there with them every step of the way. No ears need to be lost either. All rabbits can be bonded unless they have a condition preventing them from being able to endure stress. Don’t be concerned with the size difference. Just wear gloves, have a handbroom nearby, and use a small space in the beginning (the smaller tub you mentioned for example). The first sessions will give you an insight as mrmac posted into how things are between them. Since they are females, the more neutral an area you use the better. You can have the first meeting without bars between them even in a basket inside a parked car as neutral territory.The strange scent of the car will let them know they are outside of their home.

[KytKattin]

Well Nova was born to live on stress, so she handles everything quite well. Eclipse was apparently bonded at some point, so her previous owner said. Though she also said that Eclipse liked to rough and tumble before being okay.

As for what happened today; Eclipse it turns out is the one that wants to be dominate in new territories. I have no doubt that Nova would fight if Eclipse was put in her cage, but in new places Nova tends to be quite timid. Tomorrow I might try the kitchen, as Nova has been there frequently, but Eclipse has not. Another problem I noticed was that with my boyfriend helping, Eclipse was being a daddy’s little girl and paying more attention to him than Nova. She kept going up to him and putting her front paws on his leg so he would pick her up. I can see that she might actually be a little possessive of him, and I wonder if we ever make it to having them in my room both being free range if Eclipse will be nice until my boyfriend shows up…

All in all it was an interesting experience. Eclipse has NO fear of anything, so I do wonder if this bond will be possible. Most of what I have read is in regards to ‘stress’ related bonding. I am afraid that anything that is scary enough to scare Eclipse will kill Nova. On the other hand, Nova did groom herself in front of Eclipse, and Eclipse didn’t seem out for blood (just fur, and Nova has plenty of that).

Also, my mom was curious how much space rabbits need to just be left to their own devices as in the wild. In theory (and only theory, don’t worry), if I had a large enough area could I just let them both out and watch what happened?

[Deleted User]

In the wild a rabbit would roam an area of about 2 acres. Inside their underground warren there would be areas used by the new rabbits or younger rabbits at the bottom of the hierarchy. However, in the wild in spite of this large area rabbits suffer injuries during fights. They can sometimes die because of these.
Kytkattin, a stressor is like a distraction, a sensory stimulus that may not stop rabbits but throw even just one of the two off a bit. If you need to stop Eclipse, use your hands to do so but you must wear heavy leather gloves. Just because she isn’t afraid of anything doesn’t mean she cannot be bonded. As long as you are only dealing with 1 rabbit like that you are still doing OK. The problem starts when both rabbits cannot be stopped. If Eclipse wants to dominate, let her. As long as Nova accepts this it is a good thing.
Never put them into Nova’s cage though. Ever. With most bonds I like to play it safe and always discard my previous rabbit habitat and build a completely new one or change it considerably so to reduce territorial claims even once they’re cementing the bond.

[KytKattin]

Hmm… I wonder if because my girls are spayed they would fair better in fighting it out. Again, I wouldn’t try, but it would be nice if I could.

I actually have a great little way to stop Eclipse (for now). I just take a NIC cube and put it between them. It is a solid panel one, so it effectively blocks off contact after a little scuffle. Nova doesn’t accept her being dominate, as she will fight back, but she doesn’t try to continue it. Nova is VERY defensive, and nervous. When (if) I get to the point of bonding them where they could potentially live in a cage together I am still rather stuck. I would like to use Nova’s cage as it is the only one big enough. I can sanitize it greatly and move stuff around, but breaking it down will be very difficult. I will have to think more on this…

[KytKattin]

Second try. I started with just pinning them down next to each other and petting them. Then I let them go and Eclipse wanted to nip a little. How many times will she do this before showing progress? Nova certainly fights back, though her nips are much lighter, she never even plucked fur. When I pinned Eclipse so Nova could get a good sniff at her, Nova would reach out ever so slowly and put her teeth on her, but nothing more as I told her “No” very firmly. The boyfriend has great aim with the squirt bottle, so he’s pretty good at breaking them up. I can see how this bonding thing could get discouraging pretty quickly though. I know it’s only the second day, but if this could go on for months, I just don’t know if I can put Nova through that.

[Deleted User]

It is impossible to know how long the nippiness will last. A month or two– a week only; but it’s always unexpected when it stops … it also depends how many sessions you can work. Don’t get discouraged. It’s just a process they have to go through. That’s fantastic your boyfriend is helpful!

[jerseygirl]

it also depends how many sessions you can work

Yes. I think that is really important. Doing sessions daily if possible. And it can seem the same day in day out then suddenly things change. We all know how much routine is important to the rabbit, so regular bonding sessions are key I think.

[KytKattin]

I shot a message off to my local HRS, and they are having a bonding session next month at a place very close to me! With school starting on Tuesday I’ll put their bonding on hold until this week is over and I know what my schedule is like. I will post an update on any changes.

[KytKattin]

I edited it at the top. I actually did this last weekend, but I didn’t realize that editing it doesn’t move it back to the first page. So yeah, no bunny love for Eclipse and Nova.

[Deleted User]

were you able to go to that HRS bonding session? What happened?

[KytKattin]

I took them to my local HRS meet at a Petco and we tried bonding them for about 2 hours. Eclipse mostly wanted to run around and take over the store, while Nova did not like it at all at first. Unfortunately, Eclipse just became more and more aggressive as time went on. All Nova wants is love, and all Eclipse wants to do is attack her for no obvious reason, as Nova really is very submissive. Essentially, the conclusion that we all came to was that Eclipse was a people rabbit, Nova was a rabbit rabbit, and Eclipse just won’t do well with other rabbits. Eclipse even tried to attack a rabbit they had there for adoption. It doesn’t seem possible at all to make Eclipse okay with another rabbit.

They did give me the number of a vet that might be able to permanently remove the molars that give Hubble problems though, and at a price that I could possibly afford now (instead of years from now with continuous setbacks because he needs frequent trims). If I can fix Hubble, he could live with Nova, and Eclipse could just be with her people. The possibility of a trio seems unlikely at best.

The HRS was very kind though, and are a great resource for me! Such nice people there to help.

So essentially, while I could get them to bond, they think it would be better if I just fixed up Hubble and leave Eclipse to her self. Maybe, just maybe I would be tempted to find a partner for Eclipse if I don’t end up going to the college I want to go to ( ). If I did find someone for Eclipse though I would take her to the HRS and we would start the difficult process of finding someone she might accept.

[Deleted User]

Posted By KytKattin on 02/19/2010 02:41 PM
Eclipse just became more and more aggressive as time went on. Nova really is very submissive. Essentially, the conclusion that we all came to was that Eclipse was a people rabbit, Nova was a rabbit rabbit, and Eclipse just won’t do well with other rabbits.

They did give me the number of a vet that might be able to permanently remove the molars that give Hubble problems

I hope you can get those teeth problems permanently fixed, that is great news for Hubble!

If you are happy with the separate rabbit situation then it’s all good. I would like to add that the worst bonding scenario is always two attacking rabbits, and since Nova is acting submissively it isn’t all bad. In fact, if you do decide to get a new rabbit to bond to Eclipse you’d be looking for a submissive one. Eclipse is a young rabbit, isn’t she? Young ones can be hard to bond due to competitiveness. Plus, you are dealing with 2 females.

I just don’t get that idea of a “people rabbit” vs. a “rabbit rabbit”. If I apply this concept to my own I have 2 people rabbits. They always choose people over rabbits and were aggressive to rabbits during bonding.

[Karla]

But you mentioned that Eclipse had in fact been bonded to another rabbit, so she should be a rabbit-rabbit as well? Just a more picky one when it comes to who she wants to befriend.

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