Ressurecting bunny cookies

[vanessa]

I want to resurrect the topic of baking bunny hay cookies. I saw an old thread from 2013 started by Dee with a bunny who has a sensitive tummy. Most of the recipes seem to be very treaty, and I would like to find one that is less treaty, and more staple. My little guy is prone to sludge. I brought him home recovering from a bad case of stasis. He was dehydrated, stopped eating and pooping, and had a very messy bum from his previous poops that his owner had not cleaned off. I give him tiny amounts of shredded carrot, and sometimes 1/16 of an apple, but I need to get him eating more hay. I get very worried when I see him having sludgy cecotroughs. He eats orchard hay second cut. But he needs to eat more hay. So I was hoping to find a cookie recipe that has a large amount of hay, and not many treaty factors. I’d like to replace his pellets with a higher fiber cookies. Any ideas?

[BB & Tiny]

The only time I had to take Josephine to the vet was for her recycle poop appearing as a puddle. Upon exam the vet said to cease all fresh fruit for a few days. It cleared up fine but I don’t usually give her fresh fruit anymore. I do incorporate it into her cookies though.

When it comes to cookies though I use ground oat groats and ground hulled barley in addition to ground second cut timothy, pureed greens, fruit and herbs.

I did experiment with using ” Xanthum gum ” to make a grain free cookie, but I’m not comfortable feeding them what equals a laxative in their cookie. I got that idea from a company in Seattle producing bunny cookies. They had it listed as ” natural binding agent ” and it’s true, it is. A study of xanthum gum on rats at ! % of their diet showed no adverse effects beyond a softer stool which was of no concern. So you could try that route for cookies ? 

EDIT **  Science wise the xanthum gum appears relatively safe and seems to be the only way to not add extra carbohydrates, fats or proteins. I appears to be the only way to make cookies that aren’t considered ” treats. ” The additives xanthum gum, guar gum, agar agar and psyllium are bulking agents but they also make excellent binders. It is a personal choice of me rather feeding grain than using modernist cooking.

I have seen on here just hay and fruit. I have no idea how that binds to form a cookie. Clearly more experienced than I am at it.

[MoxieMeadows]

I normally use pellet/water ratio 1:2 (example 1 cup pellets to 2 cups water). I then mix hay “dust” (the chaff from the end of a bag or you could use scissors and cut hay into tiny pieces. If the hay strands are too long the cookie falls apart) into the cookie. I use as much as I want, but too much can make the cookie dry so you’ll have to use more water or more binding ingredient. I normally use banana for the main binding ingredient.

^Those were the first cookies I ever made but my bun turned her nose up at them because they were not “sweet enough”. I made her birthday cookies but they were very “treaty”. I’ll post that recipe just in case you want to look at it though.

[MoxieMeadows]

So for those of you who remember, the last treats I made Moxie not too long ago, she hated. But the ones I made today, she can’t get enough of! The difference? More fruits (AKA it’s sweeter and more unhealthy lol!)

I’ll give you all the recipe I made up in case anybody wants to try to make some.

1 cup pellets from the bottom of the bag (so a mix of crushed pellets and whole but it doesn’t really matter)
2 cups hot water (not too hot! I just used tap water, but ours gets pretty hot)
1 1/2 cups hay “dust” (the chaff at the bottom of the bag. Mine was so crushed it was literally like powder!)*
1 small/medium banana, mashed (it ended up being between 1/4 and 1/2 a cup mashed)
1 6 ounce jar of your bun’s favorite baby food. I used pear and blueberry, it’s the only one she will touch!
I also had like one tsp of honey in the bottom of the bottle so I mixed a little warm water into it to get it out and put that in too, but it is not necessary at all!

I mixed the hot water and pellets together until it was like a paste. I know it looks like all that water won’t mix in but it will! It just takes a few minutes of working it in. (you could also let it sit for a minute to absorb some of the water if you don’t want to mix it that much). I then mixed the banana, babyfood and honey water in. I then baked them for a while at no particular temperature (our oven is broken so only broil works at the moment).

*You can use regular hay but I’d chop it up first with scissors. Long strands of hay can prevent the cookie from sticking together good.

PLEASE NOTE— That these cookies are high in sugar (I’d assume) so should only be given occasionally as TREATS!!!

There ya go. It gives more detail too about the pellets/water too. Because grinding them is a pain!

[vanessa]

Interesting ideas. Bunlove, I like the idea of xanthum. I’m familiar with xanthum, guar, agar agar, psyllium, because I use them all in my own gluten free baking. Just hadn’t thought of the need for a binding agent. I guess that explains the presence of banana in cookies. (I also use xanthum to thicken my homemade shampoo…)
Moximeadows… I was thinking of strands versus dust/ground hay. I was thinking of how to use hay/grass and not chop it up too much, so there is still hay for the bunny to chew. Since dust won’t help the teeth, although it will still help the belly. So I thought – maybe pack hay into a baking tray, like say grab an inch thick layer of compressed bale hay, it should fit well. Then pour over a liquid mixture, let it settle in, and then bake and cut into 2-inch cookies, so there are still strands of hay to chew. By the sounds of it – the tray will have to be really well soaked. I want to find a way of doing that so I can still use hay strands…

Anyone else have thoughts on xanthum gum for bunnies?

I’m going to try a concoction this week and see how it turns out. I like the idea of pureed greens. I think that for the treat effect – I’ll puree bell peppers. That way I can avoid sugar. My bunnies LOOOOVE green bell peppers.

So here is what I am going to try this evening – adapted from Moxiemeadows…

1/4 cup pellets
2 1/4 cup hay (2-inch pieces)
2 cups hot water
1 cup pureed bell pepper (or celery or other favorite veggie)
1/4-1/2 tsp xanthum gum

I’ll post how it works out. Thanks folks.

[BB & Tiny]

I made cookies with the xanthum gum and then I came across this

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/15/xantham-gum.aspx

“My Recommendation Regarding Xanthan Gum in Pet Food

Obviously I’m not a fan of highly processed pet foods, so an ingredient that aids pet food manufacturers in their extreme processing methods doesn’t excite me.

Xanthan gum is made using carbohydrates from corn, wheat, dairy, or soy. Regular visitors here at Mercola Healthy Pets know I always advise against feeding these foods to dogs and cats. The holistic veterinary community considers all four to be allergens, and each can wreak its own special brand of havoc on your pet’s digestive system and overall health, not to mention the concern about GMO’s in soy.

It’s possible pet food companies that add xanthan gum to their products might try to advertise its high fiber content, low glycemic value, or the fact that it’s “gluten-free.” Remember not to fall for marketing spin! When all is said and done, xanthan gum is just another non-nutritive, carb-based additive in processed pet food. “

[Bam]

I’ve made some successful cookies lately with the leftover pulp from making jelly to humans, the type you eat with steak etc. you cook the berries or fruit with some water, then pour it in a sieve and let all liquid drain. It’s the liquid you mix with sugar to make jelly. The berry/fruit pulp can be mixed with hay that’s not so finely shredded, it still sticks together wonderfully well. My latest batch was rowanberry/apple, the bunnies really liked them even though rowanberries are very sour and bitter.
Some cookies I’ve baked in the oven, but I’ve dried some in my fruit-and mushroom-dryer and that works well too.
Edit: in some cookies I’ve put a little bit of chopped fresh mint, in others a little bit of fresh clover. And in one batch I had fresh dandelion.

And all this experimenting is Moxies “fault”, I was so inspired by her cookies in the chat-thread (I have a crazy amount of apples, pears and berries right now, it’s been a tremendous season for fruit and berries this year.)

[Mimsy]

I’ve been mulling over what to add that isn’t that sweet that might entice a bunny, as well as bind.

For flavor I’m wondering about Roses or another flowers? My bunny is a baby, so haven’t given her any. But my birds adore them. So do my rats. The chickens eat all the flowers on the lower half of the bush, so they love them too. Going to guess bunnies love them and they are healthier than a lot of fruits? I bet it would make the house smell good baking up some rose cookies too.

binding agents is roughs I make stuff for the birds but they can eat a lot of grains and fruits. The rats can eat what we do pretty much.

I wonder if dehydrating cookies binds them better than trying to bake them.

things I’ve pondered-soy yogurt? Might help bind, but is it safe in a very small amount? Ground flax seed, expands well and may help bind. Small amount safe? What about agar agar powder? It’s a seaweed, not something a bunny would come across too often, except for those few seafaring rabbits haha.

[vanessa]

What do you guys think about flax as a binding agent?

Bam – what is this jelly pulp you are talking about? I’m not really sure…

[BB & Tiny]

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-991-flaxseed.aspx?activeingredientid=991&activeingredientname=flaxseed

[vanessa]

In the same article: “Studies show that xanthan gum has a very low glycemic value compared to other polysaccharides, probably because it is indigestible and not absorbed in either the stomach or small intestine.”

I’m liking it more and more. 

[BB & Tiny]

My query would be after it is hydrated in the puree and baked where will it take water from once eaten ? It is not advised to give a rabbit psyllium ( another indigestible fiber ) without mixing it with water, so where will the X gum take water from once inside the rabbit ? It draws water to the intestine.

With their delicate little systems it wasn’t a risk I’m prepared to take.

[BB & Tiny]

I suppose this paragraph is what makes me nervous. However 4% is quite a high amount.

” One study, conducted to evaluate the effects of xanthan gum on digestion in rats, found that a diet containing 4% xanthan gum increased the amount of water in the intestines by 400%, and also increased the number of sugars remaining in the intestine. ”

http://chriskresser.com/harmful-or-harmless-xanthan-gum/

[Bam]

vanessa, I’ve been making jelly from black currant, bramble (blackberries), rowanberries and apples lately. It’s for humans. When you make jelly, you only use the fruit-juice, and you only add sugar to the fruit-juice, so you get lots of left over pulp that you can’t use for anything except perhaps a little bit when you make home-made bread.

Basically, the boiled fruit and berries is poured into a fine-mesh sieve or preferably a cotton cheese-cloth in a sieve and left to drain. The juice drain off, you can make home-made cordial with it, or you can boil it will sugar for a few minutes to get jelly. It’s the type of jelly eaten with steak, I don’t know if you eat jelly like that in the USA, but it’s common here and in the UK for example. Here are pictures I found on the web, only I make smaller batches so I don’t use sacks and foot-stools =) http://www.ruddingpark.co.uk/wild-cooks-blog/2010/10/rowan-berry-jelly/

Goodness I’m getting really wordy now. Anyway, fruit pulp or even better berry pulp I have found to be an exellent binder and taste-giver in bunny hay cookies. I made some blackberry-ones, they were not sweet at all (I taste the cookies. They are a hard chew for a human!) and I thought the buns would hate them, but they didn’t.

My first experiments were with raw fruit and berries, I had to chop up the hay very very fine (which is hard work plus it doesn’t get as healthy for the teeth) for the cookies to bind. I thought of using ground psyllium-powder as a binder, but I wasn’t sure about dosage, maybe it’d swell in the bunny gut and cause blockage =(

Basically the binder in my cookies is probably pectin. You can buy pectin.

I don’t normally make this much jelly, last time was 2009. It depends on how much fruit and berries my garden bestows on me and this year it has bestown like crazy =) Last year we got like 4 apples in total. It depends on the weather esp in the spring, the amount of bees around when the trees and bushes bloom etc.

[BB & Tiny]

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-500-pectin.aspx?activeingredientid=500&activeingredientname=pectin

[Bam]

Here’s a pic of a batch of cookies I made 2 days ago. 

That’s correct about pectin, BunLove! I don’t add any pectin to my cookies though, it’s in the fruit esp in rowan-berries. Which is why it makes such good jelly. 

Here’s the jelly =) But that’s for humans, it has lots of sugar added. 

[BB & Tiny]

I know that jelly ! My mother makes hot pepper jelly, tasty.

I’m trying to find oat fiber here. Essentially it is the hull of the oat kernel which makes it low carbohydrate and high fiber.

[vanessa]

Wow that’s interesting. Thanks Bam. So I made a batch last night. Quite disgusting. Now I know why I should use hay dust. It’s a pain to chop in a blender – have to do small amounts at a time. And it’s a pain to cut. I took an inch thick of compressed timothy hay, put it in one of this 18″ baking trays, 1 cup pellets, 1 cup ground hay, 1 cup processed bell pepper, 1 tsp flax, 1/2 tsp xanthum, 4 cups hot water, didn’t look good so I mixed 1 mashed banana with 2 more cups water. Baked it. Came out looking like a pile of doodoo. Lancelot and Guin both ate it. I’m going on travel son – end of the month I’ll try it with hay dust.

[Bam]

Vanessa, if you buy third or fourth cut hay, it’s not so tough and can be quite easily cut with normal scissors (for tough hay, you need garden scissors.) I bought the pressed kind, the cheapish kind my bunnies doesn’t want because it’s crumbly. Has a lovely timothy scent though and the bunnies do want it when it’s in cookies.

I don’t think bunnies care if the cookies look like doodoo. They don’t seem to have the same sense of aesthetics as humans. As proof of this, I can mention that my Yohio thinks brand new bedsheets look better with holes in them =D

Bunlove, oat fiber, that’s an idea! They have that in my local store (big item now with all the low-carb-diets going on). Got to try in bunny cookies!

[Kitty]

Oh My ! I need to try this cookies my pippin doesn’t eat anything else just pallets, leaves and carrots, ocassionally treats and he loves almonds they are top treats atm. But my colleague said they boiled potato peels and mixed up with barn and then gave it to rabbits. is it any good? anyone tried this? thanks

I will bake treats today will post pic

[Bam]

Boiled potato peel is ok, in reasonable amounts since it’s high in starch. But what is barn? Do you mean bran?

It really is rewarding when you can give your bun a healthy, home-made treat and he loves it =)

[Kitty]

Oh yes, sorry BRAN I was typing quick from the office so I misspelled it… hey mixed it together and then give it to bunnies…. they don’t have flat bunnies but garden ones….

[vanessa]

Potato peels sound too starchy for my liking. I like how the cookies turned out in Bam and Bunlove’s pics. I do want to try it again when I get back from travel. Baking them didn’t get the moisture out, so I’m putting the lot in the dehydrator today. I like the sound of oat bran myself.

[BB & Tiny]

Speaking of drying, surprisingly enough when I only used hay with puree and x gum they took twice as long to dry out in the oven than the ones with grain.

I have a couple bags of them, I used only 1/2 tsp and could feel the ” sliminess. ” I’m still not confident it won’t affect the digestive system adversely. I gave them a few, they liked them but they also don’t really crunch. If I could find scientific proof it was safe, I’d use it.

[vanessa]

It makes sense that x gum would take longer to dry – it holds onto water, unlike grain, that just absorbs, but doesn’t specifically hold it. The dehydrator worked great. Lancelot like it better. Probably because it concentrates the flavor. But I do want to try a softer cut, and more ground hay, so it is less of a pain in the &*(^ to bake. Once I got it in the large baking dish, I dished it up with a spatula, like a really large square cookie-cake.

[BB & Tiny]

Yes, that is what makes me nervous. If the x gum is dried out in the oven, then fed to the rabbit, will it need to re-hydrate itself inside the rabbit..

Yes the hay is a pain, but the softer the hay isn’t there higher calorie content ?

[BB & Tiny]

New mini cutters arrived !

[vanessa]

Awesome mini cutters! My silly Lancelot doesn’t like to eat from a container, so he tosses his food out. He tossed his baked hay out, shredded it, and spread it out. Then figured it looked like his litter box – hay – and he peed on it! So I gave him his baked hay in a shallow container in his litter box. Just like his food. Shallow bowl so it is less like a “horrible food bowl that needs to be turned over”, and inside the litterbox with the rest of his hay.

[BB & Tiny]

Lol..that sounds funnier than it was I’m sure.

I put their salad in a bowl with cardboard under it so if they drop it, it doesn’t land on the floor which may be dirty. They have tried picking up their pellet dish but it is really heavy

Still waiting on the Halloween cutters. The cookies were selling well today at the ” Bunny festival. ” I have to make some tomorrow as my own babies are on crumbs !

[Author]

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