REbonding Pacey and Marshmallow kind of ?

[Sonn]

Around August 25th Pacey and Marshmallow moved in together. Marhsmallow is not spayed Pacey is neutered. I went to have Marshmallow spayed on Sep.1st which didn’t happen.

The vet took her in and I went home around 2 hours later I got a call from the vet telling me that they had actually lost Marshmallow twice under anesthesia and wanted to know if I wanted to risk a third try I said no that I would come pick her up. She was very weak but perky so we stayed at the vet for another hour to make sure she was ok she ate some food and started acting normal so we went home.

Her and Pacey were still doing great no fights just love all around. Until a week ago Marshmallow freaked out on Pacey I was standing beside the pen she growled he was just sitting in the litterbox and she literally pounced on him and his fur was flying everywhere and he got out from under her and tried to jump out of the pen but he is too short so I quickly scooped him up and put him in the extra pen I have. Checked for injuries he had none except some hair missing.

I give them time to cool off and try to let them both out to play but everytime she would see Pacey she would go into crazy attack bunny mode to which Pacey would immediately jump either into my pants leg or under my shirt.

So I left them separate for the week and started from scratch yesterday with a washing machine ride it went well Marshmallow thumped twice but she mostly hid or tried to hide underneath Pacey. Then I put a towel in the bathtub with some hay and put them in there. Pacey is in love with Marshmallow so he immediately went into grooming mode first Marshmallow growled but then relaxed and let him do his thing while she ate hay.

The he wanted grooming she bit him but when he didn’t run away she started grooming his ears and eyes. Then they settled down to eat and explored the tub together.

I am no where near comfortable putting them in the same pen yet so I am going to take it slowly lol

Here are some pictures from last night I was nervous the entire time all tub pictures of Pacey wedged between Marshmallow and the side of the tub with their nasty hay (not going to be buying that anymore!)

Ok it’s hard to take a picture of bunnies in a tub

My favorite picture

Mmm Hay

Lol looks like Marshmallow is trying to crush Pacey in this picture

 

And then my battery died

[Sarita]

That’s frightening – I didn’t know that happened with Ms. Marshmallow! What are the vet’s thoughts on trying the spay again? Did you do some bloodwork on her. She really is looking good and has lost alot of weight.

Cute pictures too – I hope you can get them back together – it’s good you are taking your time too.

[Sonn]

There was some bloodwork done I don’t remember what for would have to find the paper. But everything was normal.

The vet said she wouldn’t recommend trying again since they haven’t been able to pinpoint the problem but it was soley up to me whether they give it another shot or not. I am not sure if I should or not because she could have very well not came home at all. But then there is all the bad things that can go along with an unspayed rabbit that scare me too lol. I am currently in the process of taking her to 4 different vets out of state to get their opinions of the situation as well so we will see what is going to happen in the future.

I am going like snails pace at the moment I always get nervous once animals fight (bad experience as a child ended up losing my dog because of another dog).

[Sarita]

Let us know what you find out on Ms. Marshmallow. I totally understand your apprehension! I’m not sure either what I would do in your position.

[Deleted User]

Sonn, I am sorry to read about the trouble you are having. I didn’t know; I assumed Marshmallow was spayed by now. She is beautiful.
Yes, take time in making a decsion, maybe you find out some helpful info from these different vets…

[Sonn]

Thanks no the vet wanted to wait until she had lost some weight to spay her then all that happened.

So after the other vets I am either going to try to spay her again or not. Hoping I can get her spayed though.

[jerseygirl]

Oh gosh, I’m sorry to hear you nearly lost her like that! I really hope you can find a solution for safe surgery for her. I wonder if different anesthetics can make a difference?

As to their bond issue, could she be stressed from the attempted spay or was that too long ago now.  I’m also wondering if her own hormones could be affecting her behaviour even though Pacey is neutered? Do you know how old she is?   I had to smile when you said Marshmellow hid under Pacey during the washer ride!!
I agree with Sarita, she really looks good! She’s come quite a way.

[Sonn]

She doesn’t act stressed that I can tell it has been almost a month ago. I definitely think it is her hormones she will be 2 in Nov. according to her adoption papers.

It was cute to see this big bunny try to hide under the little bunny lol

[Sonn]

Things are going smoothly for now. Marshmallow has mounted Pacey a few time to which he becomes a flat pancake on the floor it’s weird I try to not let it go on since it seems to stress Pacey out.

But once she is off of him he is back to cuddling up beside of her sometimes she lets him other times she avoids him. But at least she hasn’t went all psycho bunny on him so far.

[Sarita]

I am rabbit sitting for a pair that I bonded and the female is definitely the dominant one and when she gets excited she mounts Noah. He hates it too but he jumps up either on the cat condo or goes inside. I also have a female pair and one of the females when she gets excited mounts the other one but not for very long and not often. Usually it doesn’t last very long but I do try to break up Noah and Kizmet when she mounts him – he’s a kind of an air head rabbit and luckily he’s fairly easy going but he does get her back sometimes too which is pretty funny.

It is good that she is not going psycho bunny on him too and it sounds other than the occasional mounting pretty good.

Have you heard back from any of the vets?

[Sonn]

Posted By Sarita on 09/24/2009 10:49 AM
Have you heard back from any of the vets?

 

No not yet one is supposed to call sometime today. I take her to the last vet tomorrow morning ( a 4 hour drive ). Hopefully someone will have an answer for me. I want her to be spayed but I don’t want to knowingly put her life in danger after the last time.

[Sarita]

Are they doing any types of tests? If not what are they doing to help you evaluate this?

I agree about not wanting to put her in danger.

[Sonn]

They are doing a myriad of test both physical and blood. The vet she last seen said they suggest regional or gas anesthesia if I want to try the spay again. I am very wary of the regional anesthesia since the rabbit is conscious. My dogs were spay/neutered under gas anesthesia so it could be adjusted quickly if needed.

[Sarita]

Is that isofluorine gas? I wouldn’t want just the regional either – how do you keep the rabbit still…she would be terrified too.

[Sonn]

Yes isofluorine gas. I was explained the regional is kind of like an epidural for humans it numbs from the point of injection down. But no don’t think I want to even attempt that lol.

[Sarita]

Usually they do a combination from what I understand of iso gas and an injectible anesthesia for spays. Do you know what the combination that the first vet did? I’m sure the vets you are consulting with already know this too since they probably got her file from your vet.

[Sonn]

I am not sure of the combination the first vet did it is probably on the massive amounts of paper I have somewhere. Got the call from the second vet and they found nothing abnormal in any of the tests.

[jerseygirl]

What was it that happened during the previous operations? Her heart stopped?

[Sonn]

Yes her heart stopped twice when they decided not to risk it again before calling me

[KatnipCrzy]

Have they done an ECG or chest x-rays on her?

It is possible to do a spay using gas anesthesia only- you put the animal in a 10 gallon tank with a special top that let the anesthesia in- when they get sleepy you swap the tank for a mask on the face and hopefully that will be enough to get the bunny intubated- if they intubate (bunnies can be difficult so some vets just use a mask thru the whole surgery).  Bunnies are difficult to intubate and trying repeatedly can cause damage and swelling to the throat- so from what I have heard after 2 tries- they give up on a trach tube and often use the mask.  (I can’t say EVERY vet does this- but rabbits are notorious for being hard to intubate and for being sensitive to attempts to intubate).

Injectable pain meds are given even before the surgery is started so they are “on board” when the bunny wakes up.

There is an expensive but considered best for high risk anesthesia- is Propofol for inducing anesthesia and maintaining with gas anesthesia like isoflourane or sevoflourane.  (Yes the stuff that was linked to Michael Jackson’s death).

If the animal is “gassed down” in a tank that is done before the mask as the gas stinks and many pets depending on what they have had for a pre-med, pain meds would fight having the mask held to their face.  So it is less stressful to have them in a tank- let them relax, switch them to a mask (you always have to make sure to hold your breath when you grab the animal out of the tank- and put the lid back on quick).  It wastes more anesthesia- but is great in some cases for high risk patients or aggressive cats that you can’t give an injection to if they are “fully loaded and awake”.

I am so sorry to hear about your scare with Marshmellow- I would be freakin out!  And I certainly would have went to pick her up instead of them trying again right away with a method that obviously does not agree with her.

[Sonn]

So far both vets have done chest x-rays on her the one tomorrow is wanting to do both chest x-rays and a ECG. The vet I just seen described the “chamber” about the same way you did. He told me he has only even successfully intubated 3 rabbits the rest had to just use the mask.

When the vet called and told me they lost her twice I did freak out big time! I was shaking so bad by the time I got there to pick her up I almost dropped her carrier it terrified me.

[Sonn]

Marshmallow has a heart murmur… I go back tomorrow so they can get clear pictures of it to see how big and bad it is. Then I am supposed to go back in 4 months to see if there is any evidence of it closing or getting larger.

[Moonlight_Wolf]

Oh I am so sorry sonn, I hope marshmallow is ok, ((((Healing Vibes))))

[jerseygirl]

(((Marhmellow))) Keep us posted when you know more details.

[Sarita]

Oh no! Poor Marshmallow. Keep us posted on this.

[Sonn]

The murmur is 3 and 1/4 mm which I was told is excellent since it is not huge. She also has some thick scar tissue on the right side of her heart. The only thing we do now is wait to see if it is closing.

I asked if I should stop the bonding process and was told I should only need to stop if she is showing signs of stress or acts differently after the sessions. But I should postpone spaying her until they know for sure whether the murmur is going to close or get larger.

My poor mellow

[Sarita]

Healing vibes to Ms. Marshmallow. I’m glad you got an answer too – it’s awful just not knowing anything but knowing something at least gives you something.

[Lara]

I just read this whole thread for the first time… so terrifying to almost lose your sweet bun. I’m impressed that you were even able to drive to pick her up! You bunnies are beautiful, especially Marshmallow. She reminds me of a marshmallow peep! Is that where she gets her name? Or is it from her toasty colouring? In any case, she’s an absolute love! And I love Pacey’s hair!

I’m sending all my bunny-healing prayers Marshmallow’s way.

[Sonn]

Bonding is going fairly well I have moved to a semi-neutral area now. Which is the front porch in my ferrets playpen. Both spend some time out there when there is good weather.

Marshmallow is slowly stopping mounting Pacey everytime he comes near. He started this weird whining thing when she would come near him so we took a weekend break since he was stressing out big time. But today went rather smoothly Marshmallow mounted him twice but otherwise they snuggled or ignored one another and then proceeded to dump litter onto the floor.

 

A few pictures notice the litter LOL after they dumped it they were like eww I don’t want to step on it

He’s not as innocent as he looks….

 

Them in the incredibly chewed up basket thingy

 

 

They pretty much spent the rest of the time there giving me the stink eye and leaving for the occassional potty or hay break

 

[MooBunnay]

Poor Mallow – I”m glad to hear you figured out what was wrong. I lost a foster bunny when she went under for a spay, but I think it was because she was still pretty young, and also had not had a healthy child-hood (she was born to a mama that had been abandoned outdoors).

They are so cute together! Juli also makes the same whining noise when Kramer paws at her to try to get her to play with him. Its good because that usually gives him the signal to back off. It sounds like they are doing really well if they are able to share spaces like that basket without becoming territorial.

[Sonn]

Just a short update:

Pacey and Marshmallow are semi getting along. They get along great when I am in the room but if I even turn around for a split second Marshmallow gets super aggressive but only if they are in the same pen. If they are out in the house they do fine. If I didn’t have 6 dogs in the house and 3 newborn puppies I would just let them free roam. So I am thinking since the room Pacey was in when I first got them is now fixed and no more crashing ceiling I may try them in there and see how they do. If they do good that will become their permanent “enclosure”.

Only thing that is concerning me is Marshmallow’s aggression lately she is fine then she just snaps I have quite a few battle wounds lol she will just be sitting with me on the couch doing her bunny loaf or digging in the cushions when just like that her ears go back she growls and I feel the pain before she even latches on.

I have to keep her put up when my little cousins are around and they don’t like that since she is the one that loves to sit on them and give them kisses but I can’t chance that with her right now.

Don’t know what or when this triggered but she is otherwise my squishy mellow who loves to be carried around and hide in my blankets and get Pacey (my otherwise lazy bunny) to chase the dogs all over the house.

[jerseygirl]

How long has that been going on – her aggression?

[Sonn]

Posted By jerseygirl on 10/26/2009 05:22 AM
How long has that been going on – her aggression?

 

He aggression started a little over a month ago toward Pacey and about a week ago she just started randomly biting me.  She doesn’t bite hard enough to draw blood most of the time but like a warning bite a dog would give. We have been to the vet a lot and there isn’t anything other than the murmur wrong with her to cause any kind of pain or discomfort that anyone can find.

[jerseygirl]

That’s what I was going to ask…about the murmer and if it could affect behaviour. So maybe it’s some fluctuation in hormones? Sort of like false pregnancy but not the full experience? I had also though about new animals in the house but it sounds as if it been happening a bit longer.

[Sonn]

I am not sure if a murmur can affect behavior or not. Yes this started before I got the new puppies in the house. I am not sure what it is she will be fine one minute and just flip out the next minute.

[Sarita]

That sounds hormonal to me. You know what hormones can do to us :~)

[Sonn]

For now Pacey and Marshmallow will only be allowed to have out of cage time together when I am around she has gotten very violent with him otherwise. Lol I have resorted to wearing long sleeves during playtime just in case she decides to latch onto me.

I am ok with the separate cages and together playtimes as long as both buns are happy and neither are being tormented.

[Author]

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