Re-occuring bladder issues

[CWHH]

Hi all,

I’ve followed this site for a number if years, but finally signed up as I’m struggling to find advice- or rather peace of mind – for my buns issues.

Heidi is my 3 year old lop, she’s my princess and other thar being deaf has had no previous health concerns.

When she turned 3 in April that’s when things started to go wrong.

Heidi had recurrent UTI’s (she’s spayed, she’s outdoors during the day so has the run of the garden but indoors for bedtime). The first couple of times seemed to shift with antibiotics. But the 3rd time she was not recovering at all. She’d lost all bladder control, so I opted for an x-ray and ultra sound. The vet seemed to think there was a kidney stone present. So I was mixed – positive there seemed to be a distinct cause for the recurrent issues but naturally terrified for surgery. By this point Heidi was very unwell, constant pain relief and cleaning until surgery day.

The vet then told me he didn’t find a stone, just a build up the calcium crystals and he did say at the time thar this concerned him a bit. But I was just focused on Heidi’s recovery.

She returned back to her normal self, healthy pee, potty trained again, and out some weight back on.

3 weeks ago noticed her wee was dark. But had read it can be down to the autumn season and her eating leaves in the garden. I check her bits every day so I don’t miss if sges having accidents a again, but alas, tonight it looks like she’s wet herself and had 2 accidents outside her tray so my worst fears have been realised.

Has anyone else had a bun who’s had bladder sludge return so quickly? I read up about it but I can’t see anything about prognosis if this is a returning condition for fur babies. I bought low calcium food, I barely give her greens anyone, she was doing so well now I’m worried if it has returned so quickly, is this a really bad sign?

[DanaNM]

Has she been treated for E Cuniculi? The incontinence really sounds like EC (and with going outside she could have been exposed). It can manifest as bladder and kidney issues, and can cause calcium in the kidneys due to impaired kidney function. Often vets will treat for it on suspicion because the tests are unreliable. The usually treatment is a 28 day course of panacur with a pain med because some of the symptoms are due to inflammation).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[CWHH]

Thank you, no she hasn’t- but I can purchase panacur and try that alongside anything the vet suggests! I’m not sure if they screened her urine for it, if that is the method for testing for it? They tested forblood and kidney function. We’ve only had courses of 2 different types of anti biotics. I have an appointment booked for tomorrow, but this is something I can at least try as well, thank you very much.

[Bam]

I agree with Dana, E cuniculi should be suspected here. It is a parasite that is common in rabbits, they can carry it unsymptomatically all their lives but some do get ill from it. It typically affects the central nervous system or the kidneys. Incontinence is a very common find. Treatment is not pricey, Panacur is a common animal dewormer. As Dana also says, meloxicam (metacam) is often given to reduce inflammation, because the parasite causes tissue inflammation.

[DanaNM]

I would have the vet give you the dosage for Panacur for sure, it’s usually a very affordable medication!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[CWHH]

Thank you, this has been very reassuring (not in the instance 5hat my fur baby may have suffered with this! But that it may mean another avenue as opposed to a functional problem with her bladder/kidneys). I’ll start trying panacur ASAP- she doesn’t have the other symptoms but it fits more than her suffering with sludge so soon after surgery.

 

Thank you for all the advice, very comforting.

[DanaNM]

Keep us posted on how it goes!

It can take some time for the symptoms to improve, so it’s recommended to complete the full course even if you don’t see improvement the first few weeks. And of course discuss this all with your vet before starting any new medications!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[CWHH]

I will do thank you, really hoping this will find out the cause. Speak soon!

[LBJ10]

I was reading your original post and immediately thought it could be EC as well. I’m glad to hear you’re going to give the treatment a try. I hope it helps!

[CWHH]

Thank you!

Had our visit to the vet and I think he thought I had rabbit munchhausens as Heidi only had surgery in September ha. He said buns urine can be different shades etc and asked why I thought she was incontinent (he’s an absolutely lovely vet don’t get me wrong! But I think he was struggling to suggest anything). But then he took heidi in for examining and he saw for himself her damp botty and realised it wasn’t in my head.  Anyway, he said her bladder felt fine, she didn’t wince – but he admitted that buns are very good at hiding discomfort as we know! I said I had the panacur treatment and was starting that – but he didn’t seem to register that much, which just adds to what everyone has been saying that perhaps this is the thing that’s been missed and maybe they haven’t screened for it, only for bacterial infection. It got me thinking too, on the previous occasions before survey, we were trying courses of anti biotics with anti inflammatories as she had 2/3 times or recurring ‘cystitis’ and it seemed to go away. But the third time the vet suggested antibiotics without the anti inflammatories because he wanted to check it wasn’t masking the problem – and the incontinence didn’t improve at all, which is when we went for an ultra sound and x-ray. So makes me think more so after reading about EC, that it’s only been receding for these short periods because we were treating the symptoms and not the cause.

 

Anyhoo, the vet has prescribed a course of anti biotics and anti inflammatories – which I’m obviously not going to ignore, but I’m following tbe course of panacur as you’ve all suggested too and thinking if we get to 3 months after this treatment with no relapses – then I think that’s going to be affirmed to me it’s the EC as opposed to cystitis again or sludge.

 

One thing I’m worried about is this time frame of having EC if it is that, this all started in April – it’s now mid November! That’s such a long time to cause damage, as I said in the original post, Heidi this past month now has been he beautiful self, so playful, eating, hopping etc so outwardly she seems OK (bar tinkle functionality!) My question is, what damage could EC have done over such a period of time?

 

Thank you all again, it’s truly been a relief hearing your thoughts because as you can guess, it’s been a looooong (much like this post) period of short lived success and recuurent failed treatment, which scares you when you feel nothing is working.

[Bam]

You can give antibiotics and antiinflammatories together with Panacur.

The time frame is not the same for all cases of EC. It’s highly individual. The bun’s immune system continously battles with the EC parasite and antibiotics for any comorbidity will help the body’s own immune system fight the EC. Antiinflammatories are important too, because EC causes tissue inflammation, so keeping inflammation down is definitely not pointless.

Many if not most EC buns need repeat treatment with Panacur yearly or less often.

[LBJ10]

Yes, it can definitely vary from individual to individual. Assuming the bunny shows symptoms at all (most are asymptomatic), the symptoms can slowly appear and be relatively mild or they can have a rapid onset and be severe (seizures, paralysis).

[CWHH]

Hi all,

Just giving an update if that’s OK.

So I’ve been giving the antibiotics, anti-inflammatories with the panacur.

We finished the course of antibiotics and anti-inflammatories 3 days a go. And this morning I’ve seen Heidi has returned to little dots of urine again on her puppy pads. I’m wanting to upload a picture of her most recent urine aswell for thoughts but just figuring out how to do it so hopefully will post that in a few days.

It looks quite thick to me. The cour has changed to a nice more lighter orange, comparative to all the previous weeks when it more  lost resembled a shade of brown.

We’ve still got until the 18th Dec for our course of pancur to be complete so that’s actually still a while in terms of seeing a change I suppose.

 

She’s eating great, pooping great. And on the treatment her incontinence had stopped judging by her back end being nice and dry and free of smell.

 

I’m incredibly inpatient as worry gets the best of me but I’ll wait and see how the panacur goes and hopefully upload a pic of her urine for people’s thoughts if that’s OK?

 

Thanks again for all the advice. I’ll try absolutely everything for my princess bun so I’m all ears over suggestions! X

[DanaNM]

We love updates!

Did it seem like she was much better while on the antibiotics? It’s possible she needs a longer course, especially if she has a stubborn infection that wasnt fully cleared with past treatments.

That’s really good to hear her incontinence is better! Does the urine look sludgy? Pictures would be great. If you add them to your profile, they will appear in your media library and you can add them to your post (this is the work-around because we are still having issues with direct picture upload).

And yes, panacur can take a long time to start to see the treatment take effect, so I would definitely continue the full course of treatment with that!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

We really do love updates!

I agree with Dana on everything else too. And I think perhaps she should be kept on meloxicam at least for as long as you’re giving the Panacur. To prevent damage to the stomach lining, Pepcid (famotidine) can be given concurrently with the other meds. Pepcid is a pill though, so either you yourself or the vet needs to mix it with an appropriate amount of water. That’s doable though, my recently spayed girl was sent home with 5 days worth of pepcid and water in a plastic vial. It’s an inexpensive drug.

[CWHH]

Thank you! OK I will continue with the courses.

I’ve just posted (sorry not ideal picture) of Heidi’s urine this morning.

So shes previously been on antibiotics for her incontinence, she does improve but only with anti inflammatories, it seems as soon as we stop the anti inflammatories, the incontinence returns soon after 😞

[CWHH]

[DanaNM]

That looks like normal urine to me!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[CWHH]

Oh really?? 🙂 you don’t think it seems too thick? Know its hard to see from a picture, but that’s such a relief 😅

If that’s the case, then it’s just the incontinence that’s the only issue if it does come back.

I haven’t checked her this evening but she’s had nearly a week of being dry.

[Bam]

Rabbit urine always has a bit of sediment in it. It should have that, because if the urine is completely clear, it means the rabbit isnt expelling excess calcium like it should. It might mean that calcium is being retained in the bladder, which can lead to bladder sludge or even urine stones down the line.

Bladder sludge is a lot thicker and  pasty.

[LBJ10]

Yes, that looks normal to me as well. Keep in mind that it will look even more concentrated as it starts to dry. Rabbit urine varies a lot… even day to day. It may or may not be caused by something they ate too. So as long as it falls within the range of normal, I wouldn’t worry. Keep up the EC treatment. Hopefully it eventually helps with the incontinence.

[CWHH]

Hi all,

 

Just an update on my Heidi; we have 3 days left of panacur treatment to go, but I’m delighted to say we’ve have 5 days of being completely dry, no incontinence. So I’m so chuffed. If she gets past 3 months without a UTI, I’ll be delighted. Thank you so much for all the advice and reassurance, its meant a lot – happy Bun, happy mum 💖 😊

[Bam]

Thanks for the update! Fingers very crossed that it stays this way!

[DanaNM]

That’s wonderful news! Thanks for the update!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

Wonderful! I’m glad things are better now.

[Author]

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