Re-bonding 2 girls after emergency vet visit fallout

[AmberJox]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so thank you for reading 🙂

2 rescue buns – 4 year old Holland dwarf ‘Frida’ and younger Lionhead ‘Tila’. Previously bonded before emergency vet visit for Tila, on her return home Frida attacked her and it’s been ongoing since then. We are finally past the fighting and aggressive behaviour but now Frida either begs her to groom her (which she does and barely grooms her back without banana motivation) or runs away acting petrified causing Tila to chase her and nip. Some grunting and hair pulling.  I just feel that we are now stuck and not progressing to being calm in each others company so they can live together again. I know it’s just time and patience with the process but my silly boyfriend agreed to rescue another abandoned bunny next week (apparently unneutered boy) so now I’m worrying about how I’m going to seperate and have 3 living apart in a small house. I was hoping the girls would be friends again by now. Even though I understood about bonding before I really didnt know how a bond could be broken by 2 previously best friends.  The new boy coming is another Holland dwarf, does anyone think it’s easier to bond 2 of the same size/breed or doesn’t make a difference? Of course we will castrate him ASAP.

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes (after their spay the bonds remained strong)
If so, for how long (for each)? 4 months

Housing
Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.). – Neighbours (my small house is split in 2 and we swap them over every night)

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? Yes
How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? Generally Tila is calm but gets annoyed when Frida wont groom her back. Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Yes
If so, for how long? Months
Have you started sessions yet? Yes
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? RE bonding 2 and a bit months.
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? Try to do every day a little bit longer but sometimes cut short due to Frida behaving so scared and panicky. As soon as you seperate them she seems happy and relaxed.
Have you tried any stressing techniques? Yes, car and van drives. Bathtub. Bonding in different locations/rooms, inside and outside. Now considering staying at the in-laws for a week or so to see if that would help in a completely new space neither have been to?

 

Thanks again

[DanaNM]

Ahh so stressful. 🙁

Hmm so you’ve been working on re-bonding them for 2-ish months?  How long were they bonded before they had their fallout? I’m just curious because if they were only spayed 4 months ago, then it sounds like their bond was fairly new? That could have made it more fragile, and if it broke just 2 months after their spay, then they could have been going through hormone fluctuations which also affected the bond. Females can have hormone fluctuations for 4-6 weeks post-spay, but it’s hard to find an exact number on this. Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a sense of the timeline.

Also, how badly did they fight? I ask because if one bun was badly injured, sometimes they need a break after the fight to calm down, and sometimes the bond is fixable.

I think going to a completely new space could help, especially if you are in a small space with limited neutral areas. I did a lot of bonding from a studio apartment in the past and I would often go to a friend’s house for bonding.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Oh, and sorry I didn’t answer your question about the boy!

Having an unneutered male in the house can also upset even a very stable bond. They can be SO smelly. I would hate for you to have this newly bonded couple and have the bond break again.

Breed doesn’t matter at all for a bond, but M-F (castrated of course) pairs do tend to be a bit easier on average.

If you are for sure bringing home that new boy next week , it might make sense to wait to finalize their bond. Once he’s neutered, you may find you can bond the trio, or he might pair up more easily with one of the girls if you are planning to keep him.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[AmberJox]

Thank you so much for the reply.

They were bonded (unsterilized) for around 10 months when we got them. In large terrace area with lots of hiding places. The break up happened after Tila returned from G.I status 2 day vet stayover. During bonding they had 2 bad fights where Frida got eye wounds so we had a 5 day complete break each time to give time to heal. No stitches necessary. (We put extra mesh over x pen so they couldnt fight through bars). I’m going to take your advice and stay at the in laws for a week to have a go there.

And the boy (if he does end up being that and not mis-sexed by the nice couple that caught him abandoned on the beach). I do have a big enough area that he can be in away from the girls for a while until we see how everything is going, if he is a boy I would like to keep him and try and bond the trio or one of them depending on the situation! If he ends up being a girl I think may have to try and find another responsible home for her as the thought of bonding more girls gives me a headache Haha!

Thanks again, I will let you know how it goes in the new location.

[DanaNM]

Hmm yeah it could have been they were in a large enough space with enough hiding spots that they did OK together even though they were unspayed.

Usually with injuries it’s recommended to wait several weeks for them to cool down and forget each other a bit, depending on how bad things were.

What you want to avoid is one bun is just always afraid of the other. They may stop fighting in bonding sessions because the fearful one stops challenging the other, but that won’t be a true bond.

So when you do the sessions in the new location, look for lots of positive behaviors and really relaxed behaviors from both buns as things progress. If Frida seems like she still scared and tense around Tila, then they aren’t bonded.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[AmberJox]

Ahh that’s interesting, we did not know this! We go to a fantastic rabbit specialist vets but the one who checked Frida over that time just said to give wound time to heal before trying again so maybe he isnt super knowledgeable about bonding.

As I am writing this now I was just about to say that is exactly how I feel she has stopped challenging her and just fears, constantly running away. And then she did a big flop in front of Tila haha. She isnt scared to eat or sleep in front of her either but there are never many poos during bonding sessions (another reason cut the marathons at 7 hours as thinking about statis). I hope I’m right in not getting involved too much now there isnt fighting, just chasing? I smoosh them sometimes but try to leave them to it. I try not to think of it as Tila bullying her either as I know it’s natural behaviour and she is just frustrated but it drives me mad lol! So much contradictory behaviour from Frida!!

If I feel like the behaviour is improving in new location but slower I will stay there a little longer before bringing them home and giving everywhere here a super clean.

Sorry for long message and thank you so much for taking the time, I wish I would have found this forum when I started the re bond !

 

[DanaNM]

Most vets (even the really good ones) don’t know much about bonding, it’s surprisingly common!

When one bun is scared of the other one, it is important to take the bonding process slowly. Sometimes doing marathon-style sessions too early can cause the fearful bun to “shut down” and trick you into thinking they are bonded, which can lead to a bond breaking down the road (this happened to me!).

Keep us posted on how it goes in the new space!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[AmberJox]

QUICK UPDATE!

Frida went in for her teeth filling down a week ago and unfortunately 2 molars were wobbly and infected so they ended up removing one completely and almost getting the other one out but couldnt in the end! Nightmare as she will have to have more surgery in the future. This changed our plan of going to the in-laws as I didnt want to stress Frida when she wasnt well and thought better for her to recover at home.

But anyway she is much better now and I decided to do a short bond with them. So far it’s much of the same.  A bit of grooming, mainly ignoring each other with Frida freaking out if Tila comes up to her. Frida not scared to eat or drink around her but gets nervous when Tila comes up to her. Today both eating hay and peeing and pooing while in the bonding pen.  I also gave 2 litter trays today and that seems to help.

Will keep the daily bonding as long as everything stays the same.  Fingers crossed.

[DanaNM]

Oh poor Frida!

I actually think you should pause all bonding until she is totally well again. Her health issues could actually be why she has been so fearful. Buns that are in pain or ill will not bond fully, or there can be a false hierarchy that forms and breaks later.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[AmberJox]

Hi 🙂

Thanks for advice which I followed, since she really seemed to be recovered (for now) we have only done a few bonding sessions in a cleaned semi neutral area, again the same but Frida seems to be approaching Tila more, but still running when its visca versa. Unfortunately I think she is always going to be backwards and forwards to the vets for her teeth. Next week she has a x-ray appointment so we can see whats going on better. So with this in mind I was wondering whether it will always be an unsettled bond, even though I take them to the vets together if she is there all day or overnight I cant leave Tila there aswell.

The new boy rescue is a rascal, super fun, young and playful. He is now castrated and in a separate room with no contact with them obviously. I wonder whether he would be better bonding with Tila? Frida just seems so genuinely happy being with us (my boyfriend specifically). We are atleast 3 months in to the girls re bond now. And I know bonding a trio with 2 unsettled girls will be a disaster!

I know it’s our crazy fault for taking on the boy aswell, more work but we just couldnt leave him.

Thoughts?

Thanks again.

[DanaNM]

It’s hard to know how it would go with the girls. Some buns will just have 1 issue after the vet that gets resolved, then they never have a fallout again. Others might have more issues.

As to whether to go for the trio or a pair, you could do a test date with all 3 and see how it goes, and/or do dates between each of the girls and your new boy and see how they do individually. Or you could just go for the pair that you think needs the most company (like Tila and the boy). It’s really up to you at this point since none of them are bonded!

You do bring up a good  point though about Frida needing ongoing medical care, which could present challenges both with the bonding process and the stability of the bond itself.

I think in these types of cases its best to trust your gut, as you know your bunnies the best!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[AmberJox]

UPDATE!! The girls are bonded. It was a loooooongggg process but the girls are best friends again. We have now started bonding the boy with them and so far so good, he couldnt care less and they surprisingly seem to really like him. I’m taking it extremely slowly ! Frida is also doing much better with her teeth which I’m sure is helping the bonding! I now have a new foster/rescue but have made a new post for him, haha.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Thanks again</p>

[DanaNM]

That’s great news! Thank you for the update!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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