Question about E. Cuniculi

[Karla]

I was reading this old post https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aff/2/aft/38158/afv/topic/Default.aspx and it sort of confused me.

Does E.Cuniculi never leave the infected bunny despite treatment? I read the posts the way that only when the bunny gets treatment is E.Cuniculi kept down, but it doesn’t go away.

Could someone with some experience in E. Cuniculi please enlighten me?

Freddie has uveitis (eye problems) due to E.Cuniculi. He was diagnosed with this in july and underwent a 28 day treatment with Panacur. So I assumed naturally that this would kill the parasite and all would be well. But a few days ago, I noticed that his other eye had a big spot as well, and took him straight to my vet, who said that this was uveitis as well and clearly due to E. Cuniculi. She has contacted an American specialist now to find out what else we can do to treat him, since the treatment did not help and it has spread.

So, does he always have to undergo treatment or did we simply just fail to kill the parasite this time?

I can see from the thread that Ecchinecea is recommended to boost the immune system. I have plenty of that in the fridge, I just didn’t know I could give it to the bunnies.

[jerseygirl]

I have some confusion in E.C. too. I sort of understood that it can infect rabbits when they’re young, be shed out and then it’s the effects or damage it did that comes up later in life (usually renal and neural). Yet treatment is traditionally medicating with an anti-wormer…. Binky Bunny might be able to answer your question as her bunny Bailey tested positive for EC.

[lashkay]

Hi, I empathize with you. My former rabbit was treated with Panacur for E. Cunniculi and it did nothing, if very little. You may want to try Ivomec instead. I trust Barbi Brown and wish I had known about her website while my Buddie was still living. I feel that if I had treated him with the Ivomec she recommends, it may have cured him. Barbi Brown:

“…I searched the internet and all readily available veterinary references for anything I could find on E.C. and found an article that indicated Albendizole ( the human equivalent of Ivermectin) is used to treat Aids patients infected with the Encephalitazoon protozoa. Many vets are now using Oxybendazol with great success. I am convinced, based on my own experience, that Ivomec( (a cattle wormer) is the key to stopping the migration and replication of the parasite. Ivomec 1% injectable solution for cattle (given orally or by injection) paralyzes the parasite and stops the migration to the brain or other organs. Ivomec is safe and does not cause loss of appetite or other side effects that I have seen other than some minor lethargy for a couple of days after the first dose… (I treat rabbits with Ivomec at 3 month intervals.)”

I suggest that you get in touch with Barbi Brown (contact info on her website barbibrownsbunnies). A lot of good stuff there, I feel. I got my happy healthy (knock on wood) bunny Dustor from a breeder she recommended and have used other supplies Barbi sells as well with much success. Good luck.

[RabbitPam]

It’s good to know that Dustor had such a good experience with Barbi Brown, but I would not try any medication that has not been discussed with your vet first. You don’t know if there is any sort of drug interaction with what he has been prescribed, as well as other individual factors that may or may not be a factor in his health. Please consult with your vet to discuss alternative treatments, and when to administer them and how, first.

[Karla]

Thanks for the link to Barbi Brown’s website. I don’t have much influence on the medication, because I did suggest that my vet talked to Dana Krempel’s eye specialist (she asked me to have my vet contact her), but she said she would ask the experts she knows.

But I can do all the other stuff, I guess. Barbi at least puts a lot of emphasis on general health and a high water intake, so I think I might buy some vitamin supplements for Freddie, make sure he gets a salt and mineral stone to increase water intake, and then see if I can get him to drink water with Echineccea (doubt it, because it smells and tastes badly).

But from what I understand from her website, the parasite is killed if the medication is right. Dana Krempel herself says, that the parasite will be killed during a 28-day panacur-treatment, but like Lashkay I am not so sure about that.

JG: I will read the links you sent to me! Thank you for that!

[Sarita]

I don’t think the vitamin supplement is necessary or the mineral/salt stone. I would just make sure he has a fresh bowl of water. General health should result from a good environment and care which is why I think a vitamin supplement is not necessary. I would suggest that if both Dana Krempels and Barbi Brown suggested that the parasite could be killed on the right medication they are most likely correct.

[Karla]

But if I cannot get a hold of the right medication, then I need to try out those things I do have an influence on, like making sure he drinks a lot of water and that his immune system is excellent. May not matter, but at least I feel like I am doing something for him

Thing is that Dana claims Panacur works, which it hasn’t done for neither me or Lashkay. I can only hope that my vet may come up with some of the stuff that Barbi Brown suggests then.

[Sarita]

Here’s an article with some other options – maybe your vet can come up with these medications to give it a try:

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/treatment.shtml

[Karla]

This is what the British Rabbit Council says on the matter:

“What treatment is available for this condition?
Unfortunately at this stage we can only support rabbits with the condition, because at present there is no specific treatment that will reverse the damage caused by the presence of the parasite.
 Medication (Fenbendazole, Lapizole, Panacur) can slow or halt the rate of multiplication of the E.cuniculi parasite with in the body. “

But then again they finish off with this:

“We recommend all rabbits recently acquired (purchased or rescued) receive a single course of fenbendazole for 4 weeks by mouth or on the pellet part of the diet daily. If you rabbit has the parasite it will kill the parasite before it causes further damage and may prevent clinical signs developing”

If I read it correctly, they first claim it only slows the parasite down, but does not kill it. But then further down change their mind and says it kills the parasite?

However, this might explain why Freddie’s eye problems worsen although he has received treatment:

“The E.cuniculi parasite caninfect the eyes of un-born rabbits that are infected whilst in the womb. This may cause destruction of the lens and eye later in life (6 months to 2 year old are commonly seen). Medical treatment can be effective in saving the eye if this is carried out early enough.”

So, perhaps the parasite is dead, but whatever process, it started is still going on?

I have been reading this really interesting article http://homepage3.nifty.com/mitosis/sub1e.htm, and they too claim that Panacur should do the trick:

According to the prophylactic study, the same treatment was administered to 16 rabbits with neurological signs, and eight rabbits were free of them (three showed some residual signs, and five responded poorly to the medication). This means that the administration of fenbendazole is effective in eliminating the E. cuniculi spores from the brains and kidneys of the rabbit hosts and shows the efficacy even after the infections have been established

However, only half of the test rabbits were cured…8 of them still had problems, so perhaps we still haven’t killed the parasite in Freddie.

I hate that I don’t understand this parasite at all! I cannot help worrying that Karl and Molly may have been infected as well, so because I could just not settle with having just a pair, I may be responsible for their death. From this paragraph, it seems that the spores spread around the room  with dusts, which I had not considered. So, it might have been the whole apartment that should have been cleaned and disinfected!

“[…]It is important to disinfect the living areas of rabbits to prevent infection; you should remove straws or bowls with urine immediately. You can sterilize them by using hot water, formalin 1% or NaOH 1%. After the urine is dried up, spores may be scattered with dusts and the infection will be possibly spread. The infected rabbits should be apart from healthy rabbits until E. cuniculi is completely exterminated. Infected rabbits excrete spores intermittently, which will raise a risk that healthy rabbits can be infected as well if they are kept in the same place”

Well, still waiting for the vet to get in touch with the expert.

[Karla]

In case, anyone is in the same situation as me and comes across this thread, I will post the e-mail I just got from Galens Garden in UK (they make alternative remedies for rabbits and rodents), that I have contacted and asked for advice on what products to try:

Treatment for E Cuniculi (anthelmintics) does take a long time and is designed to eradicate the parasite. The treatment itself does not repair the damage already done to the cells.

Sage, and other naturally aromatic culinary herbs are natural anthelmintics. I have some hay and herb pellets I can send you a sample of.

Animmune Powder & HTI (Immune Suport) would be a good start, or I have some organic cleavers, echinacea & golden rod. herbal forage.

Rosehip powder or shells as a source of vitamin C and bioflavanoids. Citricidal (Grapefruit Seed Extract) from Higher Nature. http://www.highernature.co.uk/Produ…id

Protexin Professional probiotic or similar (make sure there are no added electrolytes) – essential if feeding Animmune Powder

May help in prevention of secondary infection – Based on Lew Bevan’s general preventative routine:
Raw Apple Cider Vinegar 3 times per week in the water. Available from horse feed merchants online or http://www.highernature.co.uk/Products/Organic-Apple-Cider-Vinegar
Carrs Entracare http://carrs.flexyshop.co.uk 3 times per week in water or on food or http://www.highernature.co.uk/Products/Oregano-Oil on food only.

As the infection is inside the eye, colloidal silver probably won’t get anywhere near it.

http://www.highernature.co.uk/Products/Glutamine-powder L Glutamine Powder can help repair the lining of the gut and is supportive of the liver, but it should not be used in cases of acute or end stage kidney disease.

So, this is what is recommended as an alternative to the medication from the vet. I just want to say that this does not replace veterinary care and it is based on what I told her about Freddie. But someone else might find inspiration in this. I am a big sucker for alternative remedies, so I am most likely trying out some of the stuff.

Just for information, then bunnies do not need vitamin C and they should never be overdosed with Vitamin A, so cleavers and rosehips are not recommendable, if you ask me.

[jerseygirl]

Just for information, then bunnies do not need vitamin C and they should never be overdosed with Vitamin A, so cleavers and rosehips are not recommendable, if you ask me.

I don’t think you can overdose them on Vit A. It’s recommended you provide veg rich in vitamin A to rabbits. There’s been confusion before where some veg lists mark the foods rich in Vit A. It’s to indicate to feed one of these in the least, but not to limit to just one.

[Karla]

According to this, you can: http://www.provet.co.uk/Rabbits/rabbitfeeding.htm

But if you have other sources, I believe you, since this is the one and only page I looked at.

[Sarita]

Here’s what Dana Krempel’s says (the question was from Beka) on overdosing on Vitamin A:

en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/200…oncern.htm

[Sarita]

Also, this is a reply from Dr. Harvey, BB’s vet when she asked her about Vitamin A:

Okay, so I just talked to Dr. Harvey on the phone regarding Vitamin A.

So summarizing what she said:

There are actually different forms of Vitamin A. Vitamin A that you find in fresh veggies and greens is a beta carotene form of A. That kind of form of vitamin A you cannot overdose on because the body (rabbits included) gets rid of what it does not use. Vitamin A, like in a Vitamin form, does not work that way, and yes, that form can be overdosed on.

But when it comes to greens and veggies the only result of an “overdose”, if you can call it that, would be orange skin, nothing harmful. So it’s fine to feed plenty of Vitamin Rich veggies. Even if that’s ALL you feed – it’s okay.

[jerseygirl]

According to this, you can: http://www.provet.co.uk/Rabbits/rabbitfeeding.htm

I’ll be reading that soon… just wanted to address some of your other questions.

I think the article by British Rabbit Council is using the term E.C to refer to the parasite and to refer to the “condition”. So when they are showing the symptoms effects of an EC infection then they’re talking “supported care”.

Then there’s the suggestion to treat with fenbendazole as a precaution if you will. Perhaps to rid rabbits of a newly acquired infection where the parasite has not had time to cause damage? Similar to what was said about using Ivomec, this would be like a preventative in rabbitries like is done for coccidiosis.

 

I cannot help worrying that Karl and Molly may have been infected as well, so because I could just not settle with having just a pair, I may be responsible for their death.

Thing is, Karl and Molly could have already been exposed to EC before – it’s that common. So even if they did later in life develop some symptoms that look like it could be caused by this parasite, you wouldn’t be able to say for sure it’s from Freddie.

With the spores in dust and the cleaning measures, was this advice directed toward rabbitries?

[Karla]

Aah, I actually know that. It is a matter of it being retinol or betacaroten, I read about that when I had a friend who became pregnant. I forgot I knew that

Okay, so no harm done in using some of the remedies she suggests, although I will only try out the echineccea hay and the immune support tincture, I think.

[jerseygirl]

So where Dr Harvey has said “in vitamin form” this is meaning a supplement? This is what I understand from the article Karla referenced too, that “over-supplementation can cause toxity”. I assume the supplemented vitamins being in pellet mixes and/or vitamin products sold for small animals.

ETA: sorry Karla, I didn’t see your last post!  I had thought initially when you mentioned Vit A you were meaning from veggies. But it’s good to know the differences in regards to in food form and as supplements. makes me want to go check the pellet ingredients again!

[Sarita]

That’s what I think as well Jerseygirl, sold as a supplement, not in the natural state.

[Karla]

JG: I’m still not sure I get it…I find it all too confusing. I think I need it completely spelled out, although admittedly when I read the various articles, it does seem that you kill the parasite,  but that there might still be some after-effects which the medication can never treat, and that this process will continue despite treatment. Right?

And yeah, you’re right about Molly and Karl. I think, I read somewhere that 80% of all pet bunnies are believed to be infected. My vet has asked me if I wanted the test, but I have declined. It is very expensive, and the test she can offer me, is probably not the newest one anyhow.

 

[jerseygirl]

In case I didn’t mention before…..E.C. is darn confusing! But Karla, if the recommended treatment has not had results, then talk with the vet again on what the next step is. Perhaps Freddies Uveitis is not directly related to EC after all.
 

Well, still waiting for the vet to get in touch with the expert

Ditto!

ETA: Sorry, posted same time again!  I get confused alot on this topic too and I think part of the reason is that there is not really conclusive info on this parasite. It’s still all being uncovered.

[Karla]

Vet says it is 100% from E. Cuniculi. She says if you look in a book about uveitis caused by E.C then you will see pictures and descriptions that match Freddie 100%. I did ask her if it could be something else, and she said no. She is an eye expert and finally a vet, I actually trust.

But yeah, I will wait for her to get back to me and not worry about this anymore until then. It’s just that I was there Friday afternoon, and it is Monday evening now. I know she is very dedicated to this problem, because she was so overly excited when I brought Freddie in Friday. She said, she had never treated a bunny with uveitis before, and there was a big seminar next year on rabbits with the american expert, so she was really interested in learning more about Freddie’s problem. At least someone finds this great then

[jerseygirl]

Maybe she could use Freddie as a case study and offer free treatment. Then it might be good for your side of things too!

[Karla]

Well, so far I haven’t paid She said we could always work something out with the vet bill, and usually you always pay when you leave the clinic, so maybe we are her case study and getting free treatment?! Could be great!

[BinkyBunny]

Sorry that I am coming into this discussion late in the game and I’ll try not to make things more confusing. Bailey and Rucy were both E.C. positive but Bailey was the only one that showed symptoms.    A few years ago I was told by my vet that 1 in 4 rabbits have this parasite but that just a small percentage of those ever actually show symptoms.

Now it’s been a few years since I have had to find treatment for E.C. I may be a little outdated, but this is how I understand the treatment and the lingering affects of the damage done.  

Though many vets had hope on new meds to actually kill off the parasite,  it had yet to be completely killed (maybe something has changed since then that I am not aware of).   The meds may help fight off the numbers of parasites in the system decreasing the amount of damage they can do.   The parasite though is still in the system and if the meds don’t work, or if the the bunny’s immune system isn’t able to keep the numbers down(age, stress can be factors too which can weaken the immune system)  then a bunny may have returning symptoms.

Regarding your comment:   “but that there might still be some after-effects which the medication can never treat, and that this process will continue despite treatment. Right?”    I think that it just means the damage already done can not be treated with the E.C. meds.  For example, if the parasite attacked the brain/nervous system, which can cause head-tilt and/or hind leg weakness, it may leave permanent damage behind or at least damage that you have to treat in another way.   Here’s Bailey’s post treatment experience: 

Bailey’s hind-leg weakness was never fully cured even after she had positive results from “Ponazuril” – the part of the brain/nervous system that controlled how she moved her hind-legs was left damaged. She did get stronger though in what use she had left.   I was also advised to do Physical Therapy which included massages of her hind legs, leg circles, and little obstacle courses every day.  The Ponazuril seemed to help keep the parasite numbers down and prevent further damage which in turn allowed her make progress with the physical therapy.   We also tried accupuncture and amazingly that made a big difference. I was a bit of a skeptic at first, but the positive changes were great to see!) Now I do understand the eye issue is different but I was just addressing the “after-effects” issue. 

When I attended the rabbit heath seminar at the HRS headquarters, it was mentioned that though there have been and are all kinds of possibities of treatments, a hard core cure has still yet to be found.

That would be wonderful if you get free treatment.  A great trade off  for both you and your vet.  She learns and you save.   My vet, who was getting certified in aupuncture, gave Bailey free acupuncture treatments.

Oh, and since I had mentioned Ponazuril, I know that Dana Krempels has also been a fan of that. I was trying to find her old response to me when I had asked her about that, but then this most recent reply from her to someone else I found more interesting. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-…uril-4.htm

THANK YOU SARITA for reposting the info about the Vitamin A!

 

[Karla]

Thank you, BB. I am really glad you arrived in this thread. I think I am beginning to understand E.C more and more. Did Bailey die from this in the end?

At least, I am fully convinced now that I need to focus on boosting Freddie’s immune system.

Thank you!

[BinkyBunny]

We did have a necropsy done and the vet said that is was not due to e.c.   She died of a condition that I can’t remember the name of at the moment — but it’s when the body builds up toxic bacteria in the cecum, and her cecals then become toxic to her — basically poisoned her.   The vet said this can just happen for  seemingly no reason at all, (had happened to her own bunny before) but sometimes stress is related to that.   But now looking back, Bailey already had a VERY sensitive digestive system, and then dealing with meds, and losing her balance —I”m sure was stressful.  So indirectly e.c could have played a part. 

 Bailey also had a whole host of other health issues.  Her original owners severely neglected her and “San Francisco Animal Care & Control” took custody of her.  Even though they got her to “adoptable health”, she was still boney and had a crooked spine (which could have been genetics, but according to the vet, it also could have been due to her not being fed and cared for– her spine could not have developed right — which ironically already made her have an odd hop which had nothing to do with E.C.).  All of which may have contributed to a hyper-sensitive digestive system and stress/pain.  

Even in retrospect though, so very hard to know for sure, how much, even indirectly, ecuniculi contributed to her death. 

 

 

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