QUESTION about e. cuniculi

[tomswife29]

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My rabbit Michelle is having surgery friday to get a tumor removed from her abdomen, and they did blood tests to make sure everything else was normal. my vet said she might have e. coniculi and after the surgery fri she would need to do another test and then give her medicine. the thing is, i heard that if shes not showing symptoms, then she might not have it. michelle is acting normal as far as i know she is not showing any symptoms. she has a tumor and an abscess which is being treated w baytril. she has lost some weight which i thought might be bc of the tumor, but as of now she is eating veggies hay, and a little bit of her pellots(tho not as much as id like her to ) anyways, ive spent $700 on her in the past couple days, and the surgery is another $627, all of this is being borrowed from my dad who can hardly afford to pay his rent. the vet said the test and meds would be another $122, but i thought i read somewhere that u can just treat them wout taking the test, which my vet said no to. i have two other bunnys at home who live near michelle and theres no way i can pay $400 to test and treat them all. i dont know what to do…the other 2 bunnies show no symptoms as well…

[jerseygirl]

What make your vet think she may have E.C.? Something showed  in the bloods?  Is he/she concerned about her recovery from the op? Rabbits can test positive to EC just from exposure to it and not have symptoms. I think they can also have it and not display symptoms – though not sure on that. Hopefully some of the forum leaders can answer your questions. Meanwhile, there’s some info on EC on this page if you haven’t read this before.  http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/paresis.html

Sounds like Michelle is going thru a bit. Hope she does well with the surgery.  Could your vets office arrange a payment plan for you? 

[Kafrn]

Hi, I have been doing some research on the above mentioned, I found one article that said half a teaspoon of de for rabbits in their food will kill any parasites in the system, and completely detox your rabbit – including expelling e coniculi from the system… Jersey, you know more about this than me… what kind of parasite exactly is econiculi? is it a bacterial parasite?

[Kafrn]

Ok just read some more information. it is a parasite. The best form of treatment is obviously through a healthy immune system. DE will build up the immune system to be at its most stable level. this helps kill the parasites. Also, fragments of DE that are absorbed through the lining of the stomach, and carried in the blood to other parts of the body — eg the neural tissue. from there it can attack the e. coniculi personally, killing the parasites.
Testing positive to the parasite only means that the animal has been exposed and is putting forth an immune response. It does not mean that an otherwise healthy animal will show symptoms of the disease.
Even with a high titer to E. cuniculi, a rabbit will probably not become disabled. Studies show about a 12% chance of rabbits with high titers developing neurological disorders. Only few deaths may be directly attributable to E. cuniculi infection. Although it may be a contributing factor, it is seldom the primary cause of death. Therefore DE will only prolong the life of a rabbit living with E cuniculi.

[Kafrn]

I just read that it wills the parasites that are expelled in the urine also, making it harder to spread to other rabbits

[jerseygirl]

Kafrn, I really don’t know much about it. Binky Bunny has had some experience with it and recently wrote:

BinkyBunny Forum Leader San Francisco Area Posts: 5941

11/15/2009 12:15 AM   Regarding the e.c. – It’s true that the test positive can mean they were only exposed and they may never have symptoms, (it’s more about the comparison of titer levels from my understanding) but I guess the vets I am used to feel that IF it i could be a symptom from e.cuniculi, it’s best to catch it early to lessen any permanent damage. And when I mean catch it, I mean IF the test come out positive then give them treatment regardless. (and later the titer levels can be compared)   Basically treating for both possibilities right away.   I also know that E.cuniculi is still an unknown area in many respects with lots of continued learning and so at this point, we just have to trust our vets, I guess. Source:  https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aff/6/aft/107747/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx

It seems evidence of treatments and tests for it is lacking.  Positive treatment results are anecdotal.

[Beka27]

Rabbits can live with EC for a normal duration. My personal thought would be if she is not showing symptoms right now, you can wait. I am sure others may disagree with my thoughts on this, but anybun can have EC, even from contracting it as a baby. My buns could potentially have EC. But they’ve never had any issues that would make me think they did. If they started to show symptoms of head tilt, leg paralysis, or some of the other things associated, of course THEN I would have them tested and treated if necessary.

From what I understand, EC is similar to Tuberculosis infection in humans in that if you have ever had a TB vaccine (many people living outside the US have, esp. in Europe) or if you’ve ever been infected with it, you will show up positive for the anitbodies against it. That does not mean you are contagious, that does not mean you have an active infection, and that doesn’t mean it will become active again (altho it might).

Remember: our stance on Binkybunny is very firmly VET-oriented. Our advice is not to replace that of your vet’s but to give you another perspective. These are just my thoughts and like I said, others opinions may vary. Please keep us updated on how Michelle does thru her surgery and what you decide to do.

[Sarita]

I’m interested to know as well why the vet suspects e. cunniculi. I know that many times tumours might be pasturella related but I have not heard of it being related to e. cunniculi.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’ve been reading a ton on it!!

1) Tests have to be in two stages. One test positive simply means they’ve been exposed (Most rabbits have been, as well as to pasturella) , a sucessive test with a higher result shows it is getting worse(ie. you’d want to treat). However the tests really aren’t necessary as when their are symptoms (tilting and spinning etc) you treat for it period.

2) A test simply shows they’ve been exposed. And your right -you would not treat just for that.
 

3) It’s is not bacterial or viral-its’ a protist (single celled animal) so ‘parasitic in nature

Anyways-the long and short of it; testing is not necessary when their are clinical signs (ie. you just treat) and it is not necessary when thier are no signs.

Honestly I (and I’m not telling you what to do!!!) would just say-maybe in the future test and treat, but for now my bunny has been through a lot and if clinical E. Cuniculi signs show up then fine, but for now-lets do the abscess and tumor and leave the rest be.
.

{{Many Vibes for a Good Surgery and Recovery}}

[tomswife29]

i didnt talk to my vet in person, we were on the phone bc she was calling me about michelles blood results, so i wasnt able to ask the million questions i wanted to ask. she did say that they now know it is a fungal infection, rather than a parasite which was previousy thought. she said the protien showed something that suggests michelle probobly has it, and she wants to do the titer(sp?). my dad said he’ll pay for this, but im worried that if i treat her, she may get it again if the other 2 buns have it. since they seem to be in perfect health, i was thinking ill just wait a bit until i can afford to bring them in. (maybe a month or so). as for symptoms of michelle, i have held her a couple times and noticed urine on her bottom which i read was a symptom, but i never told the vet bc i didnt know it meant anything. so as far as i know, the vet is only going by the protein. michelles surgery is tomorrow morning im soooo nervous i dont know how im going to get through today:-(

[Sarita]

Vibes to you and Michelle. If the other 2 rabbits don’t live in the same space as Michelle, you should not worry about them…even if Michelle had a partner, I would not worry…honestly it would just make you worry too much.

Please let us know how Michelle is doing after her surgery.

[jerseygirl]

Ok, so the indicator in the bloods taken may be why your vet wants to test further. She may be doing the “paired test” mentioned in the article above.

Because “positive” or “negative” titers are largely uninformative, many vets who do take blood to confirm the presence of E. cuniculi prefer to run a paired titer, with blood drawn twice, two weeks apart. A “rising titer” means that the second blood sample has more antibodies than the first one, and a “falling titer” means that the second blood sample has fewer antibodies than the first one.

I guess you could go ahead with the second bloods then know where you stand with E.C. But her testing positive doesn’t necessarily mean she needs treatment…

I agree here with Sarita. Concentrate on Michelles surgery for just now and if you have the 2nd test done after, you can ask your vet about the necessity of treatment or not. Maybe write down some questions. I know my brain goes out the window when at the vet and there’s a ton of qu’s I have AFTER my appointment!

(((Vibes))) for Michelles surgery.

[tomswife29]

thank you so much for ur thoughts and vibes. michelle came out of surgery today just fine, and the vet thinks she got all the cancer out. i just brought her home a couple hours ago and shes hopping around like normal. im so happy i can finally breathe again:-)

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

AWESOME!!! That’s wonderful news!! Thanks for updating us

[jerseygirl]

Oh good! Thanks for the update.

[BinkyBunny]

I am also very curious to why your vet thinks your bunny has e.cuniculi? I have had two bunnies who tested positive to e.cuniculi, but they had completely different symptoms/non-symptoms, and they were only tested when there were possible symptoms. Bailey had hind-leg weakness which did improve with e.c treatment and therapy. Rucy, who was negative, when I got her (she was tested earlier when she had an ear infection), but years later she tested positive. But she NEVER showed symptoms even as she reached senior age. Many times e.c can remain completely dormant until the immune system is compromised via stress, or age, etc. (and many live completely symptom free) She lived with Jack for many years, and I had Jack tested just to see if he was exposed and to get a record of a baseline titer level if so – and I was very surprised when his E.C blood test came up negative.

So e.cuniculi is a very tricky thing and I agree that unless there are symptoms,  it’s not necessary to put them through a med regime in my opinion.

Sending off post surgery healing vibes!!.

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