Quad Bonding (currently 1 + 3)

[schoolofbuns]

Hello, I am currently trying to bond a quad and thought maybe I should share/ask advice here. I’ve shared a little on Instagram, but IG isn’t the greatest for discussion.

SITUATION: All buns were free roam, spayed/neutered for at least a year. I had an existing pair (M1 & F1) that I bonded a year ago. A couple months ago, someone gave me their bonded pair (M2 & F2). M1 is aggressive and F2 is slightly aggressive. I’ll just use M(ale) and F(emale) for now, since I know remembering other peoples’ pets’ names + genders isn’t always easy. Three of the buns are about the same size (2.5 – 3 lb) and M2 is bigger (4 lb).

My original pair had been a difficult bond (two months of pre-bonding, two more months of actual bonding, and the result was like siblings who get along because they have to and not because they actually like each other). So I kinda expected that their bond would break during quad bonding. Sure enough, this happened the second day that I introduced the new pair.

MONTH 1: Mostly pre-bonding. This is when I put the buns in side-by-side pens and switch them from one side to the other every day.
So, original pair’s bond broke quickly. My non-aggressive female (F1) was pretty anxious because of this. She has never been fond of humans; she NEEDS another rabbit. So I tried seeing how she was with the new pair. It took maybe 2 days for F1 to bond with the new pair. They are now a solid trio. For the rest of the month, I had my aggressive male (M1) in a nearby pen. We had the occasional table-bonding or small-space bonding sessions (as pairs, trios, and quad), but these DID NOT go well. Both males ended up with scratches around mouth/nose at some point. So I decided to go super slow and just let the buns get used to each other in side-by-side pens.

The “problem” was pretty obvious from the start: M1 is aggressive towards EVERYBUN and F2 is aggressive towards him. Poor F1 and M2 would just cower together most of the time, although M2 would occasionally also try to bite (mostly retaliatory).

Agression Scale:
M1 = 10; F1 = 0;
M2 = 2; F2 = 7.

MONTH 2: Mostly table-bonding and a little stress/carrier bonding. Soooo much [relative] improvement this month. We have a stroller/carrier and we got to the point where we can stop moving the stroller and they would chill for a while before showing signs of aggression. At first, we had to keep petting them to keep them from trying to bite, but we’ve been cutting down on the petting. As a quad, they can chill for 20+ min. without us petting them. In pairs M1+M2 and M1+F1 can go maybe 15 min. without us petting them. M1+F2 can only go about 5 minutes, though.

Going into MONTH 3 now. Starting to transition to floor bonding in a neutral space. So far, we’ve been sitting in the pen with them and have to keep petting or pushing trio away from M1 when they get dangerously close (M1 will growl or F2 will look like she’s about to pounce). Sometimes we do quad and sometimes pairs. After half an hour or so, they generally get tired and will just settle on opposite sides of the pen and ignore each other.

Any advice? I’d like to get to the point where I don’t feel like I have to sit in the pen with them. I understand that we often need to remove ourselves from the bonding process, so the buns can work things out themselves. I’m just super nervous now because two of them are aggressive and they’ve been injured before.

Any advice on space size? We’ve been doing SMALL-space floor-bonding (I can reach everywhere in the pen easily). I’ve also been told that using a bigger space would be better so they can run away from each other or not feel so stressed. Since two of the buns are aggressive, though, I’ve been reluctant to try a larger space because that also means it will take me longer to reach them if they fight. Also, won’t they just claim different sides of the larger space and fight if somebun encroaches on their territory?

[DanaNM]

This sounds like a tough combination of personalities, so I admire your patience!

I’m a firm believer in experimenting with things when things aren’t going well or aren’t progressing. I would try the larger space (I’ve always had the best luck with larger spaces, and Margo DiMello of the San Diego HRS also uses very large spaces to bond groups especially).  Even though it may take longer to reach them, it will also take longer for them to reach each other, and longer for a fight to escalate since they have space to move away from each other. It also gives them a bit more space to chase it out a bit. You don’t want to let the chasing go on more than a few seconds, but allowing a little chasing (as long as it doesn’t immediately escalate) can be helpful. You should still be in the pen with them at this stage, and be standing so you are ready to get involved quickly.

You mentioned that after 30 min or so they get tired and settle on opposite sides and ignore each other. This is actually a really positive thing, so you might try pushing a bit past this mark to see what happens (while still trying to end on a positive note). Usually there will be phases of activity and resting as sessions get longer. Even when they are resting and ignoring each other, this is a positive thing because it shows they trust the other rabbit enough to rest in front of them.

So yeah, it sounds like you have had good intuitions with them so far. I would try increasing the space to be large (say 2 xpens for the pair, and 3 or 4 for the quad), and if that seems to be going OK then try to start bumping up the length of sessions. You can also start the session with a short stress session in the carrier to start things off on a good foot.

Another thing that is super important in tougher bonds is how neutral the space is. I’ve also had really good luck with taking buns to a friend’s house so that I had a SUPER neutral area to work with them in (the car ride over also serves as a bonus stress bonding session). Depending on your set up and space available that might be something to try as well!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[schoolofbuns]

Hello, thought I’d post an update. I’ve taken the advice to try larger spaces. I think it’s actually working better than the smaller floor spaces. Possibly because all four buns were free roam before, so they’re probably super stressed in small spaces.

I’ve tried pairs bonding in a larger space first (between the two more aggressive buns). I think I’ll mostly do quad bonding now, though.

The problem with the pairs bonding for me was always that the aggressive female (F2) is actually submissive to the more docile male (M2). Their previous owners even told me that even though F2 is the one with more attitude, top bun in that pairing is actually M2. We suspected this might be true only because they got M2 before F2, and we thought this might change when they came to us and are both new to the environment, but after 2.5 months, it seems that F2 is staying submissive to M2.
So we really need to bond them as a quad to see how our aggressive M1 fits into the mix. Most of the fighting has been between F2 and M1, but even though M2 doesn’t initiate fights, he doesn’t back down if attacked.

Is there a way to know if one bun “won” a scuffle? We separate them before they injure each other (we have to step in because 3 of them will not back down / run away in a fight), but some fur is pulled. Is the bun with the fur pulled the one who “lost”? Does it matter who initiated and/or who got fur pulled out?

[GlennTheLionhead]

Hey!

Sounds like a tough situation but also promising,  you have a lot of patience!

I don’t have experience bonding more than a pair but have bonded a few pairs.

Based on what you have said the advice I can offer is that a) I wouldn’t get too caught up in who is top bun and who is not,  most buns want to be the one on top, so often both buns will display dominant behaviour such as fur pulling, mounting ect, I’ve always seen it as no one necessarily winning an altercation but both rabbits displaying dominant behaviours until one eventually gets sick of it and gives in to the other and becomes more submissive.  After a pair is bonded this can subtly change to a more equal state in some pairs,  as is the case with my most recent pair but not my previous ones.

b) It sometimes helps to just allow them to work out their relationship,  as Dana mentioned allowing a few seconds of chasing. I definitely don’t mean allowing them to fight or scuffle badly of course but I feel like I’ve had better results when I allow a few seconds of mounting,  a nip or two,  a little chase and then stepping in to seperate the buns after a few seconds of an interaction. It does sound like this is what you are doing now though? If its an outright attack then it should be stopped right away though.

Finally I definitely agree with the experimenting.  I’ve had combinations where they couldn’t spend longer than 30 min –  1hr together for a month+ and another combination that wouldn’t even being to communicate until 1hr into the session.

The fact they can relax and ignore eachother is really promising though!

[DanaNM]

Glenn gave the exact advise I was going to say!

Completely agree with not worrying about who is “top”. Focus on preventing fights from occurring as much as possible. So if you aren’t sure if it’s going to escalate, do something to stop the interaction before it turns to fur pulling.

If you notice it’s just a chase, I agree you can wait a few seconds to see what happens, especially now that you are in a bigger space.

Things you can do to prevent fights:

-pet the rabbits as they approach each other – helps with positive vibes among them. eventually you need to wean off this but it can help get past tough spots

-a loud noise (clapping, a vacuum cleaner, etc.). this is preferred once you get further along with them. I know when I can stop a scuffle from happening by just saying “HEY!” that I’m making good progress.

-a spritz of water. I don’t tend to use this much anymore but it can help in some cases.

-physically getting in between them. You can use an object like a dustpan or clipboard to physically stop them. If one rabbit goes to chase too aggressively I will often physically hold that rabbit down by pressing down on its shoulders to prevent it from chasing.

Keep up the good work!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[schoolofbuns]

Thanks for all the advice! Here’s another update:

I’ve had the buns for three months now. They’ve been in side-by-side pens, and I have them swap sides every couple days. So, after three months and all the swapping, I decided to try something a little risky… I took the middle barrier down and tried bonding in their living space (instead of an unfamiliar, neutral area). There were several reasons why I decided to try this; it was not a flippant decision. And I was prepared to go back to the unfamiliar space if things didn’t go well.

I’m glad that I took the risk because there was a new development. I was a little concerned before because most of the aggression was between Male-1 and Female-2, but Female-2 was always submissive to Male-2. In the unfamiliar space, Male-2 just cowered by the wall most of the time.

In their living space, however, Female-2 suddenly became very submissive and would run from attacks instead of trying to stand her ground. And Male-2 suddenly became more confident and aggressive. Most of the aggression is now between Male-1 and Male-2, with the girls just trying to stay out of their way (unfortunately, there’s some referred aggression between Male-2 and Female-2, but it just manifests as a few seconds of chasing; they’re cuddling again soon after). Half the time, Male-2 will back down from Male-1, but I’ve had to step in and separate the boys a few times. I’ve got my oven mitts and a board to slide between them.

Since this will eventually be part of their shared living space (the pens are on one side of the room that I will free roam them in), I’d rather have Male-1 and Male-2 decide on a hierarchy now instead of spending more time in a neutral area, figuring out the Male-1 / Female-2 hierarchy that seems to be a non-issue in their actual living space.

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