Purr or Pain?

[MimzMum]

Okay, I just realized, being a relatively new bun mom and all, that I probably don’t know the slightest difference between the “tooth purr” and when a rabbit is grinding his teeth in pain.

Could more enlightened folks define these two instances for me? I have noticed Mimzy shaking his head a bit int he last few days and he won’t let me look in his right ear (which has always been a little ticklish) and I’m worried that he may be developing something.

I always thought that when I stroked his head and I could feel his little teeth grinding away that it was a happy noise? Now I’m wondering if he’s doing it because his ear/jaw aches. How do you tell the difference? Do bunnies tooth purr when you’re not touching them? Or is it only when they are enjoying a noserub?

Also the eye on that side seems to put out a bit more ‘sleepy sand’ than the other. Nothing gushing or anything, just I find crusties there more often.

Oh I’m so worried about my sweet little boy! He just seems ‘off’ to me and that little inner voice is saying “VET!”

[Scarlet_Rose]

Hi Mimz, just relax, everything is going to be O.K. I think I would go ahead and schdeule and appointment for your little man and have a vet take a look at things. From your other discussion on weight, it sounds like you are trying to do that.

Bunnies look like they are chewing when they are purring and nose rubs are way up high on the feel-good scale and hence a tooth purr woul ensue. Does he do this at any other time? Does he flinch and pull away when you press anywhere? If you press and it hurts they will pull away from you and it does not sound like that is happening.

Eye crusties are normal most of the time and thick gloppy goo (especially yellow) is not good. It sounds like you’ve got a normal guy, my bunnies have crusties because they stick their head into their hay and it is dusty and it gets in their eye and the eye washes it out with tears.

[MimzMum]

Oh thank you Scarlet! ^^ I will try to relax then. No he does not pull away, if anything he craves noserubs and when I’ve just touched his ear or he’s just sitting there he just gives a lot of head shakes lately and not the one I remember from when he’s doing a half-binky. The ears seem to be annoying him just a tad, and I know that up here in Alaska, the weather is SO dry that my ears itch all winter! Maybe this is what’s going on with Mimzy.
I noticed also, since his neuter, when he plops down for a nap, he tends to ‘chew’ of a sort, and the new thing was almost a little shiver of his head, which I never saw him do before. I haven’t noticed it lately, but I wonder if the anesthesia had some kind of effect on him that caused this to start happening. But I’ll ask all when I see my vet.
Since he won’t hold still for a nail clip for me, I’m going to have her check those also, because I worry with how he digs at his ears/head with those hind feet he’s going to rip something off. (Not that it’s a constant or anything, but it only takes one time to open up a wound. Have you ever cut yourself with your own nails by accident? I know I have, it HURTS!)

He’s REALLY going for the head rubbies lately. I suppose he might just be jealous since I’ve had to take care of my two dogs and have them in the house for months now. But better not take chances.
And yes, we’re going to check that weight! ^^ He was about 5 pounds pre-neuter. I can’t imagine he’s much more, but he looks bigger to me!
Thanks also for the info on the crusties. Dust is the word up here, if it’s not in the hay, it’s everywhere else. So that makes sense.

[RabbitPam]

I’m glad you’re taking him to the vet, getting him looked at and his nails trimmed. That’s a good time to ask her to check out these things and see if they are minor or symptomatic. If minor, it helps her to know your bunny better for the future, establishing a baseline of his health in his ears and teeth. If it’s a problem, you’re catching something early and probably really easy to treat.

My vet had an email address, and I used to occasionally (trying not to abuse the priviledge) shoot off a brief description of a concern I had, asking if it was something that I needed to bring him in for. Often she would recommend something to do at home first, or what to watch for over the next day or so. Usually when she said that, it was nothing to worry about. It was my first bunny, and that was very helpful as I learned what was “normal” for him. You can always call her and ask for advice too.

(Unless your vet is a Him, then change all the pronouns above!)

[osprey]

In my experience with a couple of buns who were in pain, there is a very big difference between a grind and a purr.  A grinding rabbit is loud, you can easily hear it without being right next to the bunny.  The purr is soft and gentle, and you feel it more than you hear it.

[Gravehearted]

It sounds like a good idea to get that ear checked out just in case, so I’m glad you’ll be taking him in.

It likely is a purr, since it’s happening when you’re petting him.

[kimberleyanddarren]

well i woudl imagine that he would be making the pain noise at random times and not when u are petting him so im sure it is nothing

[MimzMum]

Well today we have had a change, he seems to be more weepy at the right eye, and while I was grooming him he was making his teeth chatter, almost like a person’s when they get cold…sooo… off we go to the vet tomorrow afternoon. (All I had to tell them was that he was shaking his ears and they set me right up.)
He was uncharacteristically content for me to pick him up and hold him, the last time he was like that was right after we came back from teh vet last time, so my guess is he’s not feeling well enough to fight much. He IS getting more used to me holding him, but…I dunno. Something in his posture and demeanor tells me that he is just a bit ‘off’.
He sure loved his grooming today. The most obnoxious he got was when he nibbled a hole in my sweatpants. ^^ Little bugger. XD And he bravely munches his hay too, but you can see where he just nibbles a little and then thinks, ‘uhhh, no.’
I went outside and brought in some clean, fresh snow in a bowl for him. That must feel REALLY good on that jaw! Aaaahhhhh! ^^

[MimzMum]

Just a quick update, folks:
Took Mimzy in to the vet this afternoon. She said she could feel a small lumpish something in his tummy on his left side that she said could be the beginning of a hairball, but other than that, his eyes, teeth and ears are all fine. I did get a tongue lashing about giving him papaya tablets and too much fresh greens. I was instructed to only feed him hay, water and the occasional salt lick. She said that is all a bunny needs.
Sooo…I feel properly reprimanded. I am just glad he is well, but that possible hairball worries me.
And he weighs in at a whopping 4.9 lbs. A whole 3 ounces heavier than he was two months ago. Isn’t that a kick?
(We also got a nail clipping today, which is great because I am crummy at it!)

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’m glad to hear he’s OK and that your vet saw him…I’m a bit conerned that she gave you a toungue lashing over papaya tablets and freash greens…I am pretty sure that’s not right all. Also I’ve read they don’t really need a salt lick (although I provide one just in case)

[MarkBun]

Hmmm… I would say that your vet isn’t an experienced bunny doctor. Greens are always good for buns, not a major amount but still I’d say at least a handful per bun. Also, as long as you are not feeding them handfuls of papaya pieces, that is also fine.  And they don’t need a salt lick at all. You could be trickey and ask him if there needs to be an operation, should you fast the bun. The correct answer is ‘no’.

In addition, I find it a little strange he didn’t give you something like Laxatone to help the hairball along.

Oh, and as for the pain thing, yeah, you would be able to hear it if they’re sitting on your lap.  Tooth purrs are much more quiet. 

[Gravehearted]

Different vets have different options – but I am pretty surprised to hear she reprimanded you for the greens especially. I would have been pretty ticked off, since most current thinking is that rabbits need daily veggies.
Does she see many other rabbits?

[Scarlet_Rose]

Mimz – I too am shocked at the tongue-lashing. This vet sounds like they have a strong belief that they are stock animals and not companion animals. The green shock me as well at the bit over the papaya tablets. The salt lick is totally unnecessary, it jsut make sthem thirstier and they get enough minerals and salts from their pellets. Wow. That was over the top. Do know that you are doing what is exactly right for your rabbit and that vet is out of line. Is there any other one in the area? I am also wondering if they checked the molars with an otoscope? That will cause a weepy eye. If there is the beginning of a blockage they should have also prescribed something to help it along as they are very serious for rabbits.

I am very sorry that the visit went poorly. If I had been there I would have given that vet quite a tongue-lashing myself. (((HUGS)))

[MimzMum]

My veterinarian has actually raised rabbits herself. She is very good with Mimzy, he seems to trust her implicitly…although he did get a little tired of the toenail clipping (I think he may have snagged one on the bars of his habitat just as we put him into the carrier…I felt really bad about that!) and let her know he’d had enough…she just stroked him and tucked him into the crook of her arm and calmed him right down so she could finish. Then she cuddled him afterwards and told him she was sorry to bother him and all that…it was sweet! ^^

She did say I could give him Petromalt (although she didn’t specify a dosage and yet she preferred that over the papaya as she said ‘rabbits don’t eat papaya in the wild’) and I only gave him two or three tablets per day as it says on the bottle during his molt. But if these were so good for him, why does he now have the beginnings of a blockage? (She also wants me to stop the cranberry tablets.)

And she didn’t totally ban greens, I should’ve been more clear. She said I should REDUCE the greens to maybe a palm sized piece of romaine per day as a treat, and only the occasional weekly carrot. (I have to admit, he’s been getting more than that, since I was afraid he was dehydrated.) I also took in all his chewing objects to show her; willow manger and sticks, grass ball and straw mats and even his bedding which he has a tendency to chew. But she wanted me to increase the hay intake as she didn’t feel he was eating enough hay (this much I knew, he’s been really picky about it since the Kaytee brand was so browned and nasty this season) and I have to say he passed a bit more hair last night, and left me a nice bunch of BB’s today. No bladder sludge either, which I notice he has more of depending on his carrot intake. ^^;

The nurse did a swab of his ears and doctor saw no cytology to worry her. She also took a good look in his mouth and said it was fine. (She said she could’ve done an xray and treated him with all sorts of stuff, but didn’t she said that has a tendency to make them sicker and she felt I could do better by just increasing his hay intake.) She wanted me to stop feeding him pellets as she felt they are made of junky hay and other nasty stuff that she feels is not good for bunnies…or any other living creature for that matter.

We’ve been going to this vet for years, she’s been excellent with all our other animals and seems to have a real affinity for all types of pets, large or small. There really isn’t anyone else I’d trust, with the exception of a holistic vet in North Pole, but she’s almost impossible to get in to see, she’s so busy. And anyway, she’s worked with my vet before and they have nothing but good things to say about each other.

Oh dear…I’m so confused! What should I do?? (headspin)

[osprey]

Hmm, no greens, salt lick, petromalt all sounds very old fashioned.  At least they did not tell you to feed exclusively pellets!

 

[MimzMum]

Well here’s more to worry about. After two days of nothing but hay, water and the salt lick (which he doesn’t bother with) and some green lettuce in the evening, (although it had seemed like he was eating and drinking more and making more mess at first), his litterbox this morning had no more than 10 bunny BB’s in it and still there is hair in the poop. I spent most of the night up last night and he mostly slept on his shelf, he’d nibbled a little hay before I turned the lights off and I didn’t see him eat again while I was up.
I gave him back his greens this morning and a few pellets (which he turned his nose up at-he ate the greens and settled down for the day). There are just too many contradictions to what my vet said and he doesn’t look any happier for the change. I can’t WAIT for spring to get here and then we’re back to fresh yard greens like hay, plantain and dandelions…I KNOW he’ll eat those.

I wonder…do bunnies get seasonal affective disorder? Maybe that’s why he seems so…disinterested.
Oh, and I should mention that my vet suggested petroleum jelly for his hairball. Now I KNOW they don’t find THAT in the wild. Neither did I feel the lump she claimed was there…now I am kicking myself for not verifying it.

[RabbitPam]

Have you used the Petromalt yet? Laxatone is the same. At least you’re seeing hair coming out.

There’s no harm in finding someone for a second opinion. A vet that’s good with many different kinds of animals may be better with some than others. Look at how much human MD’s specialize.

If you find another vet to consult, you will not necessarily be leaving this one. Rather, you will have a back up in case of emergency if your regular vet is unavailable, someone else to give you suggestions or sources for good supplies, and a second pair of eyes/hands to diagnose in case anything was overlooked. People’s lives have been saved thanks to second opinions, even though all caretakers involved were well informed. Why not bunnies?

[MimzMum]

Pam that makes excellent sense! (smacks forehead) I can’t imagine how I didn’t see that connection, guess I’m just too focused on Mim right now to think clearly. Thank you for the idea of the second opinion, you are absolutely right! (nods)
No I haven’t given him the petromalt yet, as I think he just had some last week and it’s supposed to be only every two weeks, right? And just a little fingertip’s worth? I never did get an amount for dosage from my vet. :-/

[Scarlet_Rose]

Mimzy,

First off, let me assure and tell you that many of us here have spent years working at or volunteering at rabbit rescues and believe me, we know what we are talking about. If it wasn’t good for your rabbit to have vegetables, fruit or papaya tablets we would tell you (fruit and papaya tablets are treats though-keep that in mind).

I realize you are confused because the vet is so nice and has been such a reliable one in the past, but it still does not mean they know better with rabbits.  Maybe the vet just doesn’t keep up on those things.  I mean telling you not to feed something because it is not found in the wild or to cut back and feed veggies as only a treat, that is just whacky.  Plus you estutely pointed out that Vaseline is not found in the wild either (which is also an old trick that doesn’t work), I would also like to add that your domestic rabbit isn’t found in the wild either and neither are pellets, cages, litterboxes, toys, cardboard, litter…the list goes on and on.  All of the vets I have ever had say the pellets should be given as a treat and rely more on veggies.

To be honest, I really don’t think this vet is all that savvy on new care and information for rabbits and has an old way of thinking.  Can you tell us why you chose the vets advice over everything else you have read and learned (that will help us help you and we can also help ease your mind).

Print out and bring in information from this web site, the HRS, Rabbit Haven, SaveABunny etc. and show it to the vet.   I feel bad for you because you literally have no choice to see another vet and the best way in this situation is to try and educate them and not take the chastising, by word gurl stick up for yourself and your bun.  You don’t have to be nasty or rude, just say you know what, I disagree and this is why (then explain and/or provide the print outs of information) and see what your vet says, most vets will be quite open.  These are good articles to get you started: (and please everyone chip in here)

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-3/fiber.html

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-4/pellets.html

https://binkybunny.com/Default.aspx?tabid=60

If your vet is not open then schedule with another vet, you cannot keep being confused between what you learn here and on other reliable sites and from what your vet tells you. We want to see your rabbit live a long and happy life!

I must warn you, by quickly switching a diet it can cause a blockage from stress.  So it may be why he is also in a funk.  I am really worried about Mimzy, give a tummy massage and keep a close eye on him for further signs of GI stasis and if your vet tells you it happened because of the way you were feeding him that is totally untrue. Oh and here is a GI stasis article to keep on hand:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

Papaya tablets:  There is no concrete evidence that they help there are vets that say they do and vets that say they don’t.  I will say I know that it really seems to help mine and most other rabbits (so I recommend them) and if anything, it should be treated like a treat for the rabbit and it doesn’t hurt (like I’ve said before). Further, just because you give him papaya doesn’t mean that it is guaranteed to work.  If you decide of your own accord that it doesn’t on yours then that is your own determination to make and you can stop.  Some rabbits cannot have them at all because their stomachs are so sensitive the sugar in them imbalances their system.

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-7/gi.html

http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/treat.html

Pellets: As far as pellets go, they were designed for breeding rabbits, NOT for house or companion rabbits.  They were a means to compact nutrition to fatten them up.  While now of days we have better pellets available by no means should that be their main source of food or nutrition.  Really if you think about it, isn’t it best to get vitamins and minerals from fresh fruits and vegetables than from a processed pellet? How would you like a bowl of pellets shoved at you every day, I mean would you not like the fresh veggies for your meal and fruit as an occasional treat? 

O.K. I hope my rattling on here helped you Mimzy! 

[Scarlet_Rose]

Pam – I totally agree!

[RabbitPam]

Glad to help.

Actually, I wouldn’t hesitate to give him an inch of Petromalt right away. Check the box, but I remember giving an inch in the morning, and even one more at night, when he clearly had a blockage. You can check his poops tomorrow, and maybe one more inch for another day or two. Again, check the box for dosage info.. It’s never more than an inch, and sometimes I took it down to a half inch just to be safe, but he lapped it up and it seemed to work within a day or so. I believe once every two weeks is the manufacturer’s recommended maintenance dosage, not treatment for an existing blockage. I never did any maintenance with it because I didn’t trust it to be that safe for regular use. It worked really well as needed. He made it clear he needed a little help, and I saw results. If the problem she felt is more than fur balls, than I definitely would ask a second vet.

Usually he needed a bit of watching during shedding. As for food, well, you won’t find me recommending any diet tips. I have been too embarrassed to admit what my sweetie ate routinely. Suffice to say he stayed remarkably fit for a bunny with such a sweet tooth, and loved his salt licks, lettuce, carrots and fruits. He hated his hay! It drove me nuts! I was relieved to find the Oxbow pellets made of Timothy Hay. He loved those. Anyway, once the fur passed, suddenly I had a hungry bunny doing binkies.

[MimzMum]

Please, let me clear up what I have said, because I am afraid that I may have given the impression that I don’t think you folks know what you are doing. That couldn’t be farther from the truth! I believe you all have WAY more experience to learn from and that is why I’m here.
And I made it sound like Pam had been the only one to suggest a second opinion. (when I reread my posts I realized I am getting them all mixed up in my head) Point taken that my doc is probably not viewing my bunny as a pet necessarily. When I went over her instructions with my husband (who was only there for the last 5 minutes of the appointment as he’d dropped me off and run a few errands while I was there) he reminded me that the vet started off with one rabbit, which had a surprise litter, and then before she knew it she had quickly more to care for than she’d first bargained for. So yes, I can see how it looks like she might see them as stock. I guess since up till now we’ve only had dogs and cats to take to her, that I could be looking at her with rose-colored glasses. I think you are right though, I should look for another vet for the buns. I am actually a little afraid to take Pip in for a checkup now, as she is perfect except for her nails, but now I wonder if the doc won’t find something else to lecture me about! >_<
Scarlet, you have made some excellent points and given me MUCH to think about. I will review the links and copy off the information and study it. I do realize, in the context that Pam put it, that I have to think of how I’d feel if Mimzy were my husband or one of my children. Funny, I’ve always thought I saw my pets as my ‘furbabies’, of course lately I am not thinking clearly at all because I am so worried that Mimzy doesn’t seem quite himself and so I am panicked. Please, would all of you forgive me for sounding so stupid!

You’ve all given me great advice and I scroll through many posts here all day long and find even more that is not directed to me that I store away for later. I will try the petromalt, just to be sure, and Mimzy tried his new greens this evening and seemed to really enjoy them. He also returned to his pellet treats but you can see he’s squirreling them away for overnight. ^^
The only good thing about all this, he’s now got water in both his sippy bottle and a ceramic crock so he’s drinking MUCH more water than he was before and I’m seeing much nicer pee in the litterbox. Now as soon as his next nice lot of BB’s show up, maybe THEN I can relax!

Once again, thanks for all your help everyone! Sorry I’m such a basket case, I just don’t want to do anything that might hurt my little bun-bun. He means more to me than any animal companion I’ve had yet and especially since he was abandoned, I’m determined to do right by him. For that, I know I’m going to need your help!

[MimzMum]

Okay, here’s this morning’s poop report…..

There were MANY MORE BB’s in Mimzy’s box this morning (gosh there had to be at least 25 as opposed to yesterday 10!) all nicely sized and as I took him out for his brushing, he furiously began digging at my chest and sniffing around looking for something to do. Now THAT’S my Mimzy! ^^ (huge sigh of relief)

I gave him back his veggies yesterday…to heck with what my vet said. Just hay/water/salt CAN’T be altogether correct. Mimzy is also still eating his hay and when I put him in his exercise run, he started scooting his little cardboard tubes around and I could hear bunny toenails zooming across the floor. (A side note, my vet wanted me to take his tubes/toys away from him too, because she was afraid he would ingest something that would cause a blockage.)

I did see that his fur under his chin (around that ‘dewlap’ like thing) was wet this morning, so I hypnotized him and took a good look. He actually had a little knot in his fur that was almost like the scabs I pull off my cats after they’ve been fighting. There is no sign of injury to his chin, no suppurating, no wound, teeth are aligned/clean and gums and tongue are all beautifully light pink without any sign of distress and after I took that knot off, he wasn’t licking at his chin so much anymore.

I wonder if maybe he snagged himself on something and that was what was causing any discomfort he was feeling?

I do notice he still seems to grind his teeth a bit, either that or his tooth purr is getting louder, but it’s almost always after he’s just eaten (something he was doing anyway-just not so loud) and it’s like he’s sucking food out from between his teeth or something. (Like what we’d use floss for.) I’m keeping an eye on that and if it gets worse, we go have it checked.

He will not let me touch his tummy, so I can’t tell if the mystery mass is still there or not. But with the volume of droppings he left this morning, I’d say he’s at least got output for input. He seems a little more springy today too.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

great news!!!

And your vet may be a well intentioned lovely vet, who should continue to see your dogs and cats…Maybe a new one for your buns?

[RabbitPam]

Yea poopies pile! That and the playing are all good signs that he’s past (passed?) the problem.

You’ve been very receptive to everyone’s suggestions, and all of us don’t really think clearly when we’re faced with a medical issue with the bunnies. I can give good advice than totally forget everything I ever heard, read, or knew when I get stressed out, so that’s why all of our different input can really make a difference. Especially at a crucial moment.

I wish I’d had you all at times during the last year. I remember just sitting and staring at Spockie wondering what the heck to do next. I tried so many different things to make him more comfortable when his leg weakened, and he was so patient, but I swear I made it worse before I found something that worked. And I was researching online like crazy, but the contradictory info. is out there.

And I never was able to solve the drippy sippy bottle issue, so since Spockie definitely was comfortable with his water dish that clipped to the side of the cage, I let him drink from that instead.

Tell me please: HOW DO YOU HYPNOTIZE? I really want to learn that for my next bb. I mean, specific details, please. What a great way to check for problems.

[MimzMum]

Oh hypnotizing would probably be better explained by one of the other members, I am a terrible communicator-as we have all seen! ^^;

But this was what my vet told me to do, and it’s corroborated here: I stroke my bunny’s head very gentle and talk to him softly while he’s on my chest, then I scoop my free hand around his little bum and slowly ease him onto his back on my legs. While I am looking for any problems, I keep stroking his face and cheeks and talking softly. He just lays there and I can move his little front feet out of the way and look at his chest, or check his personal areas for any signs of trouble…sadly though, the minute I brush that tummy fluff-whether I am rubbing his face or not, he curls up like a little caterpillar would that you just touched and then he gets really wild with the feet! >.< (OUWICH!)

Ah, but we’ve made long strides since he first got here. At least he lets me hold him now…well…for a little while anyway.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Mimz doll, don’t worry about a thing!  You’re doing great!  That’s wonderful that he is pooping.  The thing with the scab under the chin.  That can start when moisture is trapped next to the skin and the bunny licks & licks, trying to clean it up and next thing you know, there is a mat of fur under the chin and so they pull at that which can cause more redness and even a scab.  This happens to Daffodil so I trim that fur right under her chin shorter and it stops that from happening. 

[MimzMum]

Hogeeze…now I’m blushing…lolz! ^^;

Oh dear! Maybe it’s just started since he’s been using a bowl for drinking then? Does that mean I have to stop giving him water in his crock? 0.o He’s seemed to enjoy it so much more than the sippy bottle.
I’m not sure he’d hold still long enough for me to have a go at his chin fur. (The fur itself is not that long, it just seems like he can’t groom it right for the dewlap.) I would be afraid I’d hurt him.
What kind of clippers do you use for that, Scarlet? Is there a special one just for bunnies that maybe has rounded tips?

[Scarlet_Rose]

I use small scissors that I use for embroidery. Be very careful and you can cover the tips with tape to prevent jabbing. : )

[MarkBun]

Just wanted to note that it appears my girlfriend’s new bunny clicks his teeth when he’s nervous. On the drive home, it was as loud as if you were making the clicking noises yourself. I was scared crazy that we picked up a bun that was already in distress. When we got home, I checked him out. His teeth seemed a little small but I couldn’t find any ‘pain’ spots on him. And when we put him into his cage, he stopped clicking all together.

Great, another bun that will scare the begeezus out of me.

[MimzMum]

I’m wondering if that’s what Mim has been doing? He definitely had an attack of chattering at the vet…and it seems he does it more when the dog is in the house (although he’s nowhere near him.)
Except for him still chewing/licking at that dewlap, he’s doing very well. Putting a few pellets/or a treat in his hay gets him to eat more of it, thank goodness.
I notice he seems to be knotting up his fur in a few spots, but there is no injury or anything suspicious. Maybe he needs a conditioner for his tangles. ^^
I’ve been giving him some extra noserubs at odd times during the day/night too. This seems to make him feel a lot more content and he doesn’t chatter as much, so my guess is, nerves or not, he was trying to get my attention. (nods)

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