Pellet-less diet?

[colleenbunny]

 Just out of curiousity, if you couldn’t feed pellets to a rabbit, what would the diet have to look like?

[Eucalyptus]

Pellets, while full of awful ingredients, have a ton of essential vitamins in them that bunnies need. If you plan to take them out, you have to consider that ALL of the nutrients need to be covered by provided fresh foods. Some bunnies on a pelletless diet only get 7-10 veggies, and it works. Then there are others like our bunny that are up to 25 different greens a day (not including fruits and his dried herbal/flower/root blend that we use as a pellet replacement). If you included all of the details of EVERYTHING he gets every single day, I would imagine he’s probably nearing 35 different fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers a day.

Most people think we’re crazy, or that Java is spoiled, but considering how healthy he is (and how incredibly SOFT his fur is – literally “melts” in your hands), and his 100% perfect vet check ups, and the fact that he’s getting what any bunny would get in the wild, I believe that it’s not crazy at all. Just very, very satisfying to think about everytime I’m preparing his meals.

That being said, I’m sure no one would consider providing this much. Most people agree that you probably need to stick around 10-15 veggies a day, and try to rotate things in and out as much as possible to cover all possible nutrient loss from lack of pellets.

Anyways, regardless of what people say, I believe that pellets do more harm than good if you’re providing a decent amount of veggies. We saw improvement almost immediately when we removed Java’s pellets – and he was barely getting ANY at all anyway.

Summary: If you can only provide a single digit number of vegetables max, I wouldn’t recommend removing the pellets. Maybe just lowering them. If you can get over 10-12 a day, then consider it. Overall, your bunny will be healthier without them as long as you can meet the nutritional needs through fresh produce.

[Eucalyptus]

I recently put together a paper listing Java’s full diet in detail. The only thing I didn’t list is his dried herbal blend because it’s just too long to list. I made this for the vet, and she was quite pleased. Anyways, if you want an idea of the variety that Java gets on a daily basis, here’s the file: 

The list is a good idea of nearly everything he gets on a daily basis, but sometimes it’s just a little different. Like today’s salads consisted of: baby lettuce (romaine, red leaf, green and red oak leaf, lollo rosa, and tango), basil (lemon and thai), cilantro, mint, fennel greens, carrot tops, dandelion greens, strawberry leaves, rosemary, oregano, thyme, sage, marjoram, tarragon, dill, mache, arugula, spinach, beet greens, broccoli, celery leaves, parsnip, and a baby carrot. That totals 23 (or 24 if you count each type of basil, and 29 if you consider each type of lettuce as an individual veggie, but I tend to just count it as one). And this isn’t including his dried herbal mix that he gets every night. It sounds like his salad must be massive, and he Java must be FAT, but I literally give him a small bit of everything. Just a bite or so. A little sprig of each green makes a full, perfectly sized salad for him.

The dried herbal blend consists of: nettle, green wheat, pea flakes, raspberry leaves, broad bean flakes, melissa, marigolds, parsley, strawberry leaves, hazelnut leaves, carrots, hazelnut sticks, tomato, peppers, red clover, basil, stinging nettle roots, zucchini, sunflower petals, cucumbers, daisies, rose blossoms, cornflowers, and mallow. All of these are bunny safe and nutritious for them, as well as being good for the digestive system (like hay).

Fruit is a treat still, but we’re able to offer him a little more than most bunnies would get without worrying about calories. Not a whole lot more, of course.

Also, in case other people are lurking, I just wanted to reassure everyone that this is NOT very expensive at all. Both my boyfriend and I work minimum wage jobs and pay rent and bills. Plus we buy decently good food (no ramen here).

I’m more than happy to answer any questions or give more information/advice.

 

[Sarita]

I wouldn’t recommend a first time rabbit owner do a pellet less diet. I have done it with the consent of my vets for many of my rabbits. The truth is pellets are such a minimal part of the diet and are pretty cheap so there is no reason (unless suggested by the vet) to not give your rabbit at least a small bit of pellets. Frankly going pellet free is much more expensive since fresh greens are not cheap at all.

[bullrider76543]

I agree with Sarita, my vet recommends about a 1/4 of a cup of pellets per 4 lbs of bunny, except for my Mr. Hopper who is 8 years old and having trouble tolerating the pellets. he is on a hay diet and only gets pellets once or twice a week pretty much as a treat. the pellets were giving him very loose fecals.

[Eucalyptus]

I have to disagree. I’m a first time bunny owner, and my boyfriend is a first time HOUSE bunny owner. All of his bunnies were outdoor, in small cages, free fed pellets with no hay available and minimal greens (every few days they would feed them to him). All massively overweight and unhealthy, of course.

If you do your research, you can easily find out the information needed to do this. And, it really is not hard to do this – just provide the necessary veggies and vary it up when possible. There’s no reason to give your pet a lower quality life just because it’s your first time owning that particular species. I didn’t contact the vet or anything because I was confident in the choice and how to do it (due to tons of research). Our last visit, we informed her of the change and she was very pleased and said we’d definitely made the right choice. I might as well mention that Java’s vet is Dr. Harvey from Hayward – I believe I read somewhere that she’s among the top bunny vets in the nation. And regardless, I love how she handles the buns and have confidence in her knowledge.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, this is NOT expensive at all. My boyfriend and I have minimum wage jobs and pay our rent and bills. We literally live on my tip money to buy food for us and the bun. My boyfriend gets tips as well, but he hardly gets anything. Sure, the bun eats a million times better than us with his 25+ ORGANIC veggies.  But it’s not like we’re stuck eating ramen or anything, we make sure we get some nice food every now and then. We can easily afford the veggies because we know how to shop – Farmer’s Market is your BEST friend for this. I would say that we spend about 15$ at the very most a week because the Farmer’s Market will sell giant bushels of everything for 1$. This bouquet of dill that we got 2 and a half weeks ago is still amazingly fresh, and we have 1/3 of it left. And it’s organic. Same goes for the dandelion greens we buy – 1$ and lasts 2 weeks. 

I don’t want to get into a debate, but in summary – if you CAN provide a good variety of greens, then eliminate the pellets because getting your nutrients from fresh produce is much more natural and healthier than a processed “pill” that’s chock full of other unneeded ingredients.

That being said, I would not recommend removing pellets if you don’t have the responsibility to keep your bunny’s veggies at a decently high number and change up the variety every now and then when possible. Nearly everyday, I’m thinking of a new veggie that I can add. At the market, the first thing on my mind is the bunny. So, if you don’t think you can obtain lots of veggies, or you really believe that you won’t have the money, then definitely don’t. It’s not worth removing the pellets only to find out you’re only providing 4 veggies.

[Deleted User]

All I can say is you are one very lucky (and apparently totally unaware of How Lucky you are) person that your farmer’s market has such good prices. And two, wish you could take a walk around mine! I live in a rural area and not only have access to the farmer’s market but whole sale some of my products directly to farmers and there is no way in creation those sort of prices are available in some places including here where I live.

It would be so much nicer if you could say that it is inexpensive for you, rather then making assumptions for your entire country, and several others besides.

[Stickerbunny]

Posted By Eucalyptus on 05/15/2013 02:26 PM

If you do your research, you can easily find out the information needed to do this. And, it really is not hard to do this – just provide the necessary veggies and vary it up when possible. There’s no reason to give your pet a lower quality life just because it’s your first time owning that particular species.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, this is NOT expensive at all.

 

Price of a pellet free diet will vary by where you live. Not everyone has access to a farmers market, or even organic veggies. My area the farmers market is only open on Tuesdays 12pm – 2pm – when almost EVERYBODY is at work. So, short of taking a day off just to go shopping, it’s not a reasonable place to go (and losing that much money for an unpaid day off is not viable). Not to mention, it’s 2 towns away, so gas to go there is pricey to begin with. There are no whole foods stores within an hour (drive) of me, so again either pay a lot in gas to go shopping, or have a limited organic selection. And the stores that are within a reasonable distance don’t even HAVE 25 different types of vegetables, let alone 25 organic veggies. If I didn’t have dandelions in our yard, that wouldn’t be available either, since there are no asian markets or anything that would sell such an odd item.As is, I pay $1.49 for a single head of romaine lettuce that doesn’t even last me a week.

Pellet free can work if you do your research and you have the resources available to you to make it work. But, pellets are fine too if you don’t, since it’s such a small part of their diet, it’s more like giving them a vitamin supplement to me. It’s up to each owner (preferably with their vets knowledge so they can guide you) to decide what they want to do for their pets diet. I personally feed oxbow pellets because as I said above, a pellet free diet just would not be possible here.

Another thing to remember is some rabbits have particularly sensitive tummies. So not all rabbits are able to eat a wide enough variety of greens to be pellet free.

[Eucalyptus]

I’m not sure where the attitude came from. My entire point of posting here is to give everyone the key benefits about this. A lot of people have considered this diet, but were discouraged due to lack of information or any points to go off of. If you would like, I will post what you wanted me to say: “This is inexpensive for us. However, I believe that if you take the time to try and look for great deals and be froogle with your shopping, this could be just as inexpensive for other people.”

Not everyone has a Farmer’s Market, and sure, not all Farmer’s Markets are created equal. I made my point based on the fact that the majority of Farmer’s Markets offer produce at equal or lesser value, and is more than likely organic as well. So overall, you do get a better deal from them. Again, not ALL of the Farmer’s Markets will offer these options. But some people don’t even know about Farmer’s Markets, or realize that they have some in their area. The point of mentioning the FM is to provide that option for people that might not have ever thought about it themselves.

You’re right that other countries are different. But I figure that most people would realize this automatically, and I wouldn’t have to take the time to say “If you’re in Asia, this might be possible,” “If you’re in Australia, this is NOT possible.” The point was to look at two people living on min wage, but can still afford it, and encourage someone to see that it’s not impossible. Someone that would’ve been completely discouraged by the numbers might decide to at least consider their options for their bun. I don’t need to break it down any further than that.

Please, do not turn this into a negative or flame thread. I would like the OP to be able to read the helpful information, rather than the entire thread being locked and deleted.

—

Sorry, I was responding as the other two posts were posted. I do want to apologize if I sounded assumptuous or rude with my post. If I truly did, it was not the intention. 

I can definitely understand how 9 bunnies would be expensive! I feel like the hay alone would be expensive at that rate!

Also, I’m fully aware that pelletless isn’t always possible when your bunny has different health issues. I figured that not including it wouldn’t confuse anyone, but that was my mistake. This is definitely not for a bunny with stomach issues or calcium difficiencies, etc. A lot of senior bunnies need pellets to help keep weight on – which is why if you ever think your bun has a health issue like that, contact your vet about the pelletless thing. I didn’t because I know that Java is healthy and he’s never had any type of reaction to any veggie I provided.

It seems all of my posts were just interpretted in a negative way, so I’m going to step out while I still can. I apologize, again.

[Deleted User]

There was no attitude (or flaming) on my part, I was simply trying to make the point to you which other members have now also been trying to communicate that Your resources (farmer’s market, inexpensive produce, or (even if it isn’t true for you personally) financial) are not necessarily available to all. I was not suggesting you qualify your comments in the way you suggested, I at least was recommending that while posting and sharing your information and knowledge is wonderful, it is wise to keep in mind that it may not work for or be applicable to everyone, so statements about cost often only have a limited application. As I said you are very lucky in your market, and most of us are not. I live near seven grocery stores if I include those within a forty minute drive, and only one carries dandelion greens. All but that same one carry all herbs in small plastic packages that if I gave one sprig at a time might last me a week, and each packet costs two dollars and fifty cents. Romain leaf, red, green and frizzy (and of course ice berg) are the only kinds of lettuce I’ve ever seen in all seven stores combined, and at the height of summer not one will sell a head for under one dollar fifty. And you see I haven’t even mentioned local growers/farmer’s markets because quite frankly their prices are so many times more then the grocery stores. And I really doubt my reality is that different from a lot of other members/rabbit owners. All I did was suggest you keep in mind that your situation is specific to you! There are a lot of reasons why many people simply cannot afford what you do, and statements like it really doesn’t cost much tend to irritate, or could make someone sensitive feel guilty.

[Sarita]

I think you gave good info Eucalyptus but I was just trying to speak more to colleenbunny knowing that she is trying to convince her parents to allow her to get a rabbit and realizing that she may not have the wherewithal to actually do this particular kind of diet since it is not as practical as giving fresh veggies and pellets in the whole scheme of things.

[Stickerbunny]

No one is flaming you. Just disagreeing with the statements of “Like I mentioned in my previous post, this is NOT expensive at all.” and “If you do your research, you can easily find out the information needed to do this. And, it really is not hard to do this” – because it really will vary by your area whether it is easy or inexpensive, or hard/impossible and extremely expensive. I live in the U.S., so it’s not just by country.

Your information is good and the menu example is great. No one is criticizing your knowledge. Everyone’s goal on this site is for the rabbits to receive the best care. But, say an owner is considering getting a bunny and has no access to pellets because the stores don’t carry them (which, is often enough in some countries)- they need to know that it may, or may not, be possible to provide a proper diet. Not just hear how easy it is, but also how difficult it can be. A list of pros and cons, from multiple view points. Things to look out for (no farmers market access, limited organic supply, limited vegetable supply, rabbit being too sensitive to handle the amount of vegetables, expense of veggies in certain areas, etc) is never a bad thing to hear, when considering a diet change.

[colleenbunny]

Thank you! I will hopefully have a very large garden to help with the cost of veggies. There is a farmers market 15 minutes from where we will live after the move.

[Stickerbunny]

Posted By colleenbunny on 05/15/2013 04:22 PM
Thank you! I will hopefully have a very large garden to help with the cost of veggies. There is a farmers market 15 minutes from where we will live after the move.

 

 I would visit the farmers market to see what they have available and the prices, then make up a possible budget factoring in the amount of veggies you need before you decide what diet you want to go with.

[colleenbunny]

I can’t do that right now, but I will try to as soon as we move. We are moving from Bellingham, WA to Hopkinton , MA, so not quite possible yet.

[Stickerbunny]

Posted By colleenbunny on 05/15/2013 06:19 PM
I can’t do that right now, but I will try to as soon as we move. We are moving from Bellingham, WA to Hopkinton , MA, so not quite possible yet.

 

Understandable. It also helps in convincing parents if you can come at them with a “this is how much routine care is going to cost” plan in place, so double reason to do it.

[Sarita]

Keep in mind some things about gardening – depending on where you live you may be limited as to what you can grow.

Also, if you have never gardened before you may find it to be a more difficult task than you think – some people just don’t realize the effort it takes – obviously some people are natural born gardeners and love it but some people (like myself) love the idea but just aren’t good at it. Gardening is a wonderful hobby but it’s a huge effort.

You just need to be realistic and sometimes that is hard to do when you have big ideas. I know, I’ve been there but I do hope you enjoy it and you are successful. My mother she rocks at gardening (moreso the flowers though than the herbs/greens – mainly because of where we live…success isn’t easy in a hot dry climate for lush veggies).

[colleenbunny]

 I see. I have tried small flower gardens before, with a bit of luck. But that is before we go on vacation. 

[Eucalyptus]

I did a small summary breaking down the pelletless diet. Pros and cons, etc. Hopefully this is helpful. 

Pros:

• A healthier, much more natural diet.
• An easy diet to tend to compared to other natural diets for animals.
• According to vets, increases dental health (pellets are known to cause dental problems).
• Most rabbit savy vets won’t have a problem with this diet.
• You will see physical benefits.
• It’s satisfying to know you’re providing the best of the best!
  

Cons:

• Meal time takes longer when preparing vegetables, due to how many you’ll probably be providing.
• Can be more expensive.
• Can be hard to obtain the necessary vegetables.
  
• Picky bunnies will prove to be more challenging as you’ll have to spend more time searching for vegetables they will eat.

Where To Find Vegetables:

• Grocery stores: Commonly used vegetables should be carried by most local stores.
• Trader Joe’s: If there’s a nearby one, TJ’s tends to have good prices on organic produce.
  
• Farmer’s Market: A good way to find more exotic vegetables like dandelion, fennel that still has the greens, or various types of basil.
• Gardens: You may not realize that you have a healthy vegetable in your garden! Ask friends, family, or co-workers if you can. 
  

Tips:

• Don’t remove pellets until you’re confident in your bunny’s diet. Make sure you truly believe that the vegetables you’re providing are most likely going to be covering any nutrients in the pellets. Also, be sure you’re confident in yourself to be able to continually provide the necessary vegetables all the time once pellets are out of the diet.
• Even if it’s a small addition – you can purchase those small packs of organic herbs from the store. I budgetted just getting one pack at a time, and getting a different one once it runs out. It’s small, but one sprig per salad is still something!
• If you want to grow vegetables or herbs for your bunny, make sure you purchase an organic plant, and don’t use pesticides.
• Always confirm that anything given to you by a friend wasn’t treated.
• Always introduce new greens slowly, and remove if there’s any negative reactions. 
  

Personal Notes:

• Even though Java was only getting a minimal 10 pellets, we saw improvement when we removed them. His fur is like a silky cloud – it literally “melts” in your hands. I don’t know any other way to describe it.
• Again, despite only getting a tiny bit of pellets, I swear he’s more energetic without them. Also, he finally lost this little bit of weight that the vet was wanting him to lose.
  
• Due to being pretty low budget, I never expected to reach such a high number of vegetables. We started with 6, and just kept adding them. Of course, the Farmer’s Market did help, but looking at it now. we could lose the Market and still be able to provide a lot. Just keep your eyes peeling when you shop, and you can do it!
  
• Because of how many veggies Java gets, in order to not create a huge, oversized salad for him, I put just a pinch of each thing in. Altogether, those tiny pinches create a perfectly sized salad. In result, we go through each veggie very slowly, and each one lasts at least 2 weeks. So, even though the grand total of all the veggies would probably be 40-45$, it’s not nearly that much when they last 2-3 weeks. This definitely helps it be more affordable. Of course, prices vary on area and store.

* Even if you don’t remove pellets, it’s always beneficial to keep providing new and various veggies all the time. And the bunnies will enjoy it!

[Deleted User]

That’s a nice thought provoking reasoned discussion on the subject, my compliments.

Now, if I could ask, you did mention in your original post this mixture of dried herbs/fruits and vegetables that you give your rabbit and I found that very interesting. (Dried produce is always easier to access, even can often be ordered online.) Do you also mix that up yourself or do you buy it prepared? Because it sounds like a terrific supplement and I’d like to make or get some, if you don’t mind sharing please?

[MoveDiagonally]

On cost:

You spend $40-45 every 2-3 weeks. That would mean you spend about $53.30 – 90 a month in veggies for a single rabbit.

Personally I could never afford this diet. If I fed exactly what you’re feeding Java (amounts, cost, etc…) to each of my 5 rabbits I would be spending $266.50 – 450 in veggies a month.I have 3 larger breed rabbits so my actual costs would be likely be closer to $300-500 a month.

How much does Java weigh and how many cups do you feed a day? How did you decide how much to feed a day (weight, etc)?

[MoveDiagonally]

Just adding that I’m not being critical. Just breaking down the cost for myself and anyone else that’s curious.

I do appreciate all the time you’ve put into sharing your info!

[colleenbunny]

 Wow! That’s a lot.

[Deleted User]

Yes it is a lot, and Move Diagonally made those calculations based on excellent prices. Even if you grow a fabulous garden you are moving to Massachusetts, isn’t that right? So you won’t have a Really long growing season, And generally the better prices of vegetables are during the warmer weather (especially in farmer’s markets), so you do need to take that into consideration. Of course there are a lot of things you can grow in the garden that dry well and can be fed to rabbits (mine think dried raspberry leaves are the best treat ever invented, gets them more excited then any fruit or veg I’ve offered so far), but you’ll still want some fresh greens. I’ll add here I’m growing a selection of herbs in pots to supplement things, and that looks like it will work well. If you have the windows that is always something you can add to the mix.

And, not to be a drag, some times things aren’t that straight forward. I love to garden and used to be pretty good at it. Unfortunately most insects think I come out to give them a special meal, and while I was always somewhat allergic here there are a couple that I react to Very Badly! So since I moved here I hide for most of the summer. Luckily my Mother thinks a vegetable garden a terrific thing, and her yard is too too tiny, and mine isn’t, so she plays in mine and I get to share the results. Basically just agreeing with Sarita that something like a garden is a fantastic concept, and it may well be all you want it to be, but you’ve got to live with one in order to find out.

Something you may want to keep in mind is that feeding pellets is something you can change. Personally I’m completely happy feeding mine. While my last rabbit definitely did not have the best life ever (and I will always feel guilty because he paid for my ignorance) he did live ’til close to ten years, had maybe three health problems throughout his life, (the last one was fatal) and was very happy on a diet of pellets with hay as a treat. His teeth were fine, and so was he in every other way. Now the two furry creatures currently munching down their evening salad next to me while I’m typing definitely have a very different diet, and I’m so happy for it, but I’m just saying there’s no point in villifying a food unnecessarily. Why not plan to start using them, plant your garden, live a year in your new home, watch how prices change through the winter, try to source economical places to shop, and if all is well and you still feel you and your rabbit would be happier without pellets, then consult with a vet and plan a different diet with a clear concept of what you will be dealing with. Feeding them at first doesn’t mean it Has to be a life long commitment. Just something to think about.

[Stickerbunny]

A few tips on the time issues of feeding a larger fresh diet –

Invest in veggie keepers. If your fridge is old and not very good like the one in my house, keeping veggies fresh can be a hassle. The veggie keepers keep them fresh longer. Can also add a paper towel to whatever you store them in if they go brown quickly. Less waste is less cost.

To cut down on time required to feed fresh you can prep salads ahead of time. Certain fruit juices can keep a salad fresh, so adding a few fruit slices may be beneficial. With a good storage bowl, you could prep a few days or even a week of salads and just rinse and feed.

If herbs are hard to come by, they sell kits for growing them in your kitchen. Can even buy sprouted plants in a pot in a lot of places (and online) which you just water and place in partial sun. The instructions are pretty simple and plant killer proof (I am the worst plant killer ever).

[Eucalyptus]

Posted By Grey Dove on 05/15/2013 08:37 PM 
That’s a nice thought provoking reasoned discussion on the subject, my compliments. 

Now, if I could ask, you did mention in your original post this mixture of dried herbs/fruits and vegetables that you give your rabbit and I found that very interesting. (Dried produce is always easier to access, even can often be ordered online.) Do you also mix that up yourself or do you buy it prepared? Because it sounds like a terrific supplement and I’d like to make or get some, if you don’t mind sharing please?

I do order this mixture online, and I order it from here: http://bunnyapproved.com/product/jr-farms-herbs-of-the-meadow . It’s a fully mixed package, and I give him a small bowl. So, he probably doesn’t get every ingredient everyday, but it’s still a great replacement for his pellets. He wasn’t going to tolerate not getting ANYTHING at night, and this is very healthy, too.

Posted By MoveDiagonally on 05/15/2013 09:51 PM 

On cost:

You spend $40-45 every 2-3 weeks. That would mean you spend about $53.30 – 90 a month in veggies for a single rabbit. 

Personally I could never afford this diet. If I fed exactly what you’re feeding Java (amounts, cost, etc…) to each of my 5 rabbits I would be spending $266.50 – 450 in veggies a month.I have 3 larger breed rabbits so my actual costs would be likely be closer to $300-500 a month. 

How much does Java weigh and how many cups do you feed a day? How did you decide how much to feed a day (weight, etc)?

Okay, I did the exact math: It’s about 35$ for ALL veggies combined. These veggies will last 2-3 weeks, meaning that at most, we spend about 70$. But it’s normally less than that. This is only veggies, of course. Hay is 9$ a month, and the herbal blend is 4$ (without shipping) and seems like it should last a month.

However, because of how large the bushels of produce we can get from the Farmer’s Market are, I actually think providing to a second bunny (assuming it’s the same weight), would hardly bump it up. Some stuff has been going bad because we haven’t all eaten it fast enough. The second bunny would still add to the cost, and definitely multiple bunnies would be racking up the bill pretty quick. No doubt about that.

I don’t know how much I feed in cups. Java was about 5.6 lbs when we adopted him, and the vet said he could use a tiny weight loss (so we were assuming 5.5 would be fine). She never said he was fat, so we assumed that keeping around that weight was fine. I was feeding him quite a bit, and he gained weight. I’ve since then cut back, and he’s at 5.4 lbs and steady there. As I mentioned, I put just a small pinch of each veggie to make the salad. Anymore than that and the salad gets huge quick. He has this carrot shaped bowl, and the salad usually reaches the top, but nothing ever sticks out. I want to say 2 cups, but I have no idea honestly.

Sorry I’m AWFUL at multi-quoting. Not sure why I’ve never been able to work it out right.

[Eucalyptus]

Posted By Stickerbunny on 05/16/2013 12:03 AM
A few tips on the time issues of feeding a larger fresh diet –

Invest in veggie keepers. If your fridge is old and not very good like the one in my house, keeping veggies fresh can be a hassle. The veggie keepers keep them fresh longer. Can also add a paper towel to whatever you store them in if they go brown quickly. Less waste is less cost.

To cut down on time required to feed fresh you can prep salads ahead of time. Certain fruit juices can keep a salad fresh, so adding a few fruit slices may be beneficial. With a good storage bowl, you could prep a few days or even a week of salads and just rinse and feed.

If herbs are hard to come by, they sell kits for growing them in your kitchen. Can even buy sprouted plants in a pot in a lot of places (and online) which you just water and place in partial sun. The instructions are pretty simple and plant killer proof (I am the worst plant killer ever).

Absolutely! I’ve actually been thinking about buying those “green bags” that are supposed to help keep produce fresh longer. My mom swears by them. Just haven’t gotten out to buying them.

When you chop up veggies, it does speed up the spoiling process. As stated, fruit juices can help, but you might not want to add the sugar/calories. Being off pellets means they can afford consuming more fruit, but it’s probably not the best idea to have fruit juice on everything. They might taste it and really get a sweet tooth and NEED it.  Silly buns. I can’t really confirm if that logic is correct, but I know some people had thought about putting fruit juice in water to help consumption, but people responded with a similar answer. *shrugs*

[MoveDiagonally]

Thank you for the additional info (and again for taking the time to write out these responses )

$35 for 2-3 weeks would bring us to $46.66 – $70 / month. I’m guessing you probably average out at about $50-60 a month (paying more some months and less others). If you factor in that you’re not buying pellets that’s probably not that much more expensive then a pellet inclusive diet for you. I’m very jealous of your access to cheap organic veggies!

It wouldn’t be nearly that low cost for me but organic produce is much more expensive for me than you and I shop sales. Even though pellet free isn’t really realistic for me it is definitely interesting to learn about. Do you remember any resources you read/used when you were learning about pellet free diets. I’d love to give them a read.

I don’t want to be a nag. Lol. But is this the carrot bowl?
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Pet-Vege-T-Bowl-Carrot-Ounces/dp/B000TZ3SNC

If that’s the bowl it holds 22 ounces or 2.75 cups. At 5.4 lbs the recommended amount of veggies (2 cups per 6 lbs) would come out to about 1.8 cups. Which means you’re only having to feeding about 1 extra cup a day (.95 but I rounded up). That comes out to about a 34-36% increase (from the minimum rec) with a wider variety.

I find that really interesting! I’d always heard you had to feed a TON more veggies when you go pellet free. How did you decide how much to feed or was it trial and error? How long has Java been completely pellet free?

[Beka27]

Thank you so much for your thorough responses, Eucalyptus! This has been a fascinating read!

I’m not sure that I would go pellet-free with my pair. Even if I consider pellets more of a “junk food”, I still enjoy the occasional Snickers bar, so why deprive them? Lol!

Pet diet can be one of those hot button topics. We’ve had some discussions in the Lounge before regarding raw diets for dogs, and GEEZ LOUISE… did that turn heated QUICK!!!

We also have to keep in mind, even the most seemingly “lacking” Binkybunny diet is going to be 99% better than that of the average “hutch bunny”. We actually feed unlimited grass hay, quality pellets, and daily veggies. So many buns only get junky pellets, or only get a carrot and hunk of cabbage thrown in the hutch.

We do recommend the HRS diet guidelines pretty much across the board because they have made the diet realistic for the vast majority of people. Are there variations? Of course! But if the least you can do is follow the HRS guidelines, you and your bunny should be in good shape.

[Sarita]

I want to add that dried greens/herbs DO NOT take the place of fresh by any means – they really are more treats than anything.

I have done pellet free diets for many of my rabbits but I have not fed the variety that Eucalyptus does and have always had consent from my vets. I feed a nice variety daily though – my rabbit Bogie does not get pellets because of mushy poop problems but before I got him he would get a huge bowl of pellets daily – he is 10 years old though so some times I do sneak him pellets.

[bullrider76543]

quick question on this subject, Mr. Hopper my oldest is on an all hay and green diet, so I feed Nibbles separate because he can eat a small amount of pellets. but Mr. Hopper gets quite angry when Nibbles gets his pellets and he can’t have any. should I put Nibbles on the same diet? my vet said it wouldn’t hurt nibbles either way. I would just hate to see Mr. Hopper and Nibbles loose their bond over a food issue.

[Sarita]

I think if your vet is on board with this, then it would be perfectly fine and I agree it would keep Mr. Hoppers happy not to be jealous.

[hannaroo]

whatever you decide to do, you should make your vet aware of what your bunny will be eating to make sure its healthy and sustainable for him/her.

[Stickerbunny]

Posted By Eucalyptus on 05/16/2013 02:34 AM

When you chop up veggies, it does speed up the spoiling process. As stated, fruit juices can help, but you might not want to add the sugar/calories. Being off pellets means they can afford consuming more fruit, but it’s probably not the best idea to have fruit juice on everything. They might taste it and really get a sweet tooth and NEED it.  Silly buns. I can’t really confirm if that logic is correct, but I know some people had thought about putting fruit juice in water to help consumption, but people responded with a similar answer. *shrugs*

 

Well, I didn’t mean coat it in fruit juice. What parrot owners do is take the fruit slices we are already feeding and add it to the salad – so say you’re going to feed pineapple that day, slice it up tiny and add it to the salad and the fruit in it will help keep the greens crisper for longer.

[colleenbunny]

 This is so cool! And I do love melting fur! 

[Eucalyptus]

Posted By MoveDiagonally on 05/16/2013 03:55 AM
Thank you for the additional info (and again for taking the time to write out these responses )

$35 for 2-3 weeks would bring us to $46.66 – $70 / month. I’m guessing you probably average out at about $50-60 a month (paying more some months and less others). If you factor in that you’re not buying pellets that’s probably not that much more expensive then a pellet inclusive diet for you. I’m very jealous of your access to cheap organic veggies!

It wouldn’t be nearly that low cost for me but organic produce is much more expensive for me than you and I shop sales. Even though pellet free isn’t really realistic for me it is definitely interesting to learn about. Do you remember any resources you read/used when you were learning about pellet free diets. I’d love to give them a read.

I don’t want to be a nag. Lol. But is this the carrot bowl?
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Pet-Vege-T-Bowl-Carrot-Ounces/dp/B000TZ3SNC

If that’s the bowl it holds 22 ounces or 2.75 cups. At 5.4 lbs the recommended amount of veggies (2 cups per 6 lbs) would come out to about 1.8 cups. Which means you’re only having to feeding about 1 extra cup a day (.95 but I rounded up). That comes out to about a 34-36% increase (from the minimum rec) with a wider variety.

I find that really interesting! I’d always heard you had to feed a TON more veggies when you go pellet free. How did you decide how much to feed or was it trial and error? How long has Java been completely pellet free?

 

We’re definitely lucky with our Farmer’s Market. I still overpay for things like lettuce and spinach (4$ each) because I buy them at the store and get those organic “baby” veggie packages. I especially like the lettuce because of the variety it comes with (all confirmed to be safe, of course). It’s just this “Organics” brand, I believe. Just woke up, hah.

2.75 cups, huh? That’s not bad.The bowl is nearly filled, but like I said, nothing ever pops out. To be honest, I’m still in the trial-and-error stage.  He had gained weight, so I cut it back. The veggies used to pop out, and now it’s leveled out. He’s back to a healthy weight, and I’m just waiting to see if he’s still losing weight because that would mean I cut it back too much. I’ll be weighing him tonight as we have to cut his nails.

Oh, and he’s been COMPLETELY pellet-free for about a month and a half.

To learn more about it, I lurked a few bunny forums (like this) to see any advice people gave. I couldn’t find much, and eventually stumbled across this blog: http://bunnyapproved.com/archives/295 . Her blog is very interesting and her bunny is adorable! After reading about it, I was SURE that this was the route I wanted to take. But it still took time to plan it out and make sure it wasn’t breaking the budget. I ended up chatting with the blogger (and we still do) about it, and she helped me feel confident about the choice.

[Eucalyptus]

Posted By Beka27 on 05/16/2013 06:38 AM
Thank you so much for your thorough responses, Eucalyptus! This has been a fascinating read!

I’m not sure that I would go pellet-free with my pair. Even if I consider pellets more of a “junk food”, I still enjoy the occasional Snickers bar, so why deprive them? Lol!

Pet diet can be one of those hot button topics. We’ve had some discussions in the Lounge before regarding raw diets for dogs, and GEEZ LOUISE… did that turn heated QUICK!!!

We also have to keep in mind, even the most seemingly “lacking” Binkybunny diet is going to be 99% better than that of the average “hutch bunny”. We actually feed unlimited grass hay, quality pellets, and daily veggies. So many buns only get junky pellets, or only get a carrot and hunk of cabbage thrown in the hutch.

We do recommend the HRS diet guidelines pretty much across the board because they have made the diet realistic for the vast majority of people. Are there variations? Of course! But if the least you can do is follow the HRS guidelines, you and your bunny should be in good shape.

I’m happy that you’re enjoying it! I’m very proud of Java’s diet and it gives me a lot of joy to be able to give information about it. I totally understand the Snicker’s thing, hehe. I just prefer the candy to be fruit. But I’m a health freak, sorta. I’m not the best and keeping all the junk from my diet, personally, but I can control his. *shrugs* Just makes me feel good when his food is super healthy. I’m sure anyone could relate to that. 

Yikes, I can imagine talking about raw on this forum would cause problems. If it can cause problems on a RAW FORUM, then … yeah. Haha. I won’t discuss it anymore than that. I just mentioned it because vets are still very, very against it, but pelletless is a lot easier for vets to understand. So that was a pro, to me.

I definitely agree. As I had mentioned early in this thread, all of my boyfriend’s bunnies before were outdoors, not even in a hutch (the tiny pet store cages that gave like 2 inches of movement), free fed pellets, and that’s IT. No hay, though they grazed on grass sometimes, and veggies were like a treat. So sad … I’m just glad my boyfriend completely understand how bad it was. I definitely agree with HRS, and for the most part, it’s a perfect starting point. That’s where we started.

[Sarita]

This was the article I read many many years ago from Dr. Sue McCrory DVM:

c0un7ry1ivig.wordpress.com/2011/01/…ory-d-v-m/

It’s a concept that has been around a very long time.

[Sarita]

Of course, reading this article again some of her information is outdated like kale and dandelion greens being high in calcium and the info on bladder sludge.

[Deleted User]

Eucalyptus thanks for the link. Interesting site. When I can afford shipping I’ll be happy to try those herb mixes, … thanks for sharing.

Stickerbunny I was interested in what you said about fruit. Are there specific fruits this works with (in addition to pineapple) or is it just fruits in general?

[Stickerbunny]

Posted By Grey Dove on 05/16/2013 06:14 PM
Eucalyptus thanks for the link. Interesting site. When I can afford shipping I’ll be happy to try those herb mixes, … thanks for sharing.

Stickerbunny I was interested in what you said about fruit. Are there specific fruits this works with (in addition to pineapple) or is it just fruits in general?

 

I am not sure what all juices it would work with – citrus (orange slices) works best I know, but others can work too. I think the acidic ones are the best. I’m not sure on the details of why it works though. It’s just a tip from the parrot world since birds don’t eat much, so there is a lot of waste if you prep a salad for them and it only lasts a day or two.  

[Deleted User]

Thanks Stickerbunny, … truthfully while I’d have been interested in why it works, that it works is the part that really matters to me. If you ever try with any fruits aside from oranges and pineapples I’d love to hear about it please! When I first read your post I immediately thought lemon, but just can’t see my two tucking into a nice slice of lemon, which is a pity, I quite like a slice of lemon for myself.

[Eucalyptus]

Citrus is generally used as a natural “preservative,” especially lemon juice. I know that lemon isn’t ever listed as bunny safe, though I’ve never seen it listed as toxic, and it’s generally used as a chewing deterrent. So, I wouldn’t personally recommend it. Preparing Java’s salads take me about 3-5 minutes. And I just pick off each piece of each ingredient and throw it into a strainer to rinse. I do have to chop the parsnip and celery, but that’s all. So, I don’t find it too necessary to prep salads, especially if you have to go through methods of preserving.

And again, you wouldn’t want the bunny to start “needing” the fruit juice on the salad in order to eat. Similar to fish flavoring in cat or dog foods – they can get addicted quick!

[BinkyBunny]

 Someone may have posted this and if so I am sorry I missed it. This is another article about pellet free from the House Rabbit Society. 

http://rabbit.org/pellet-free-diet/

I definitely think that in order to go that route, as stated previously, it’s best to offer a wider variety of greens.  I am able to do that.  Like Eucalyptus, I too am in the Bay Area, and we really have an outstanding supply of stores and farmer’s markets that offer such a wide variety. (all year round!)  You can even get organic for a great price in many places.   And the fruit and veggies are so fresh and yummy!  However, when I would have to fly across the country to Tennessee regularly for a few years, I found that at least in the places I was visiting,  the locations of where I could get more of  variety were limited, but also even in those stores, the options were much less than what I was used to. (especially in the winter months).   Even the freshness was less  - -Here, veggies and greens, are rich green and crisp, fruit is busting with flavor – I really find it amazing.   When my sister-in-law came to live here for three years (and she has been in many places in the U.S. because she’s in the military) she was astounded – The fruit was so flavorful.  The strawberres were the best she had ever had.

So I can see how we sort of live in a veggie and fruit utopia here, where elsewhere the options may be a bit more limiting and getting fresh fruit and veggies could vary in price if they are harder to get.   But if you do have more options and it won’t break your bank account  where you live, then all of the tips offered on a pelletless diet are great!   

Another thing about having more greens in the diet is it keeps the gut hydrated which is really important for a healthy GI System. 

Great discussion!

 

 

[Stickerbunny]

Posted By Eucalyptus on 05/16/2013 08:57 PM

Citrus is generally used as a natural “preservative,” especially lemon juice. I know that lemon isn’t ever listed as bunny safe, though I’ve never seen it listed as toxic, and it’s generally used as a chewing deterrent. So, I wouldn’t personally recommend it. Preparing Java’s salads take me about 3-5 minutes. And I just pick off each piece of each ingredient and throw it into a strainer to rinse. I do have to chop the parsnip and celery, but that’s all. So, I don’t find it too necessary to prep salads, especially if you have to go through methods of preserving.

And again, you wouldn’t want the bunny to start “needing” the fruit juice on the salad in order to eat. Similar to fish flavoring in cat or dog foods – they can get addicted quick!

 

I can’t imagine a rabbit liking lemon either. Yuck. As I said, I wasn’t suggesting soaking the salad – but even adding your daily fruit to the salad, it helps keep things fresh if you’re feeding a certain fruit that day anyways.

Mine don’t mind if I skip the fruit, or add it, though obviously if it’s added they go for the fruit first. I have multiple pets that all need fresh salads and sometimes they need different ingredients (IE: bird needs sweet potato, or sweet corn, etc) so I find it easier to prep them all sometimes ahead of time rather than having to pull out everything they all need every time. I spend way more time on the pets foods than mine.

[Chronicambitions]

This is perfect. My vet begged me to take my buns off pellets (she really really hates them) and I wasn’t really sure where to start. Eucalytus, I took Java’s food list with me to the store and bought a good amount of what was on there. I didn’t want to get everything yet because I want to transition them slowly onto pellet free. I still bought a lot of veggies and was shocked when it came out to be only $15. I thought it would be at least $30. I live in New York City and produce isn’t cheap here. I missed the suggestion to go to trader joe’s. I’ll go there next time.

[Eucalyptus]

Posted By Chronicambitions on 05/18/2013 09:30 AM
This is perfect. My vet begged me to take my buns off pellets (she really really hates them) and I wasn’t really sure where to start. Eucalytus, I took Java’s food list with me to the store and bought a good amount of what was on there. I didn’t want to get everything yet because I want to transition them slowly onto pellet free. I still bought a lot of veggies and was shocked when it came out to be only $15. I thought it would be at least $30. I live in New York City and produce isn’t cheap here. I missed the suggestion to go to trader joe’s. I’ll go there next time.

That’s good that your vet supports it. Our vet wasn’t telling us to go off of them, but was definitely in favor. When we revealed the massive number of greens in Java’s diet, she was impressed and agreed that he definitely didn’t need them. I’m glad that Java’s list helped! However, when adding new foods to your bun’s diet, do it one at a time. If you added a bunch to the diet and your bunny got diarrhea or something, you wouldn’t know which veggie did it, then you’d have to remove them all and start over.

I’m glad to hear that you got a good deal! I know our prices are great, but I’m always still surprised when we leave the Farmer’s Market holding bags and bags of produce and we barely spent 10$. Feels great! Of course, the fridge is always overflowing. No room for human food!

Trader Joe’s has a lot of very nice produce. We mainly get kale there because theirs seems to be so incredibly crisp and dark green. It just seems better – and it’s organic so that’s perfect. I used to get arugula there as well, but it seems to spoil faster when bagged than the bin. Just something I noticed in time.

Good luck with everything! Feel free to message me if you have questions.

[Author]

Messages