Otto and Hannah – BONDED

[Elrohwen]

Well, we’re keeping the new bunny! I got over my bonding fears and did a few sessions and I think she’s going to work out just fine. Thanks to those who helped me through my new bunny neuroses  Oh, and we’ve officially re-named Merlin – her new name is Hannah. We still call her Merlin half the time, but we’re getting there.

Here’s an update of what we’ve done so far. Any tips are welcome! I don’t have pictures yet, because I was too focused for picture taking, but I’ll work on pictures during our next few sessions. Things are going much better than I expected!

 

Intro – Wednesday March 31st – 25min

The bunnies sat together, ate together, and groomed themselves for at least 20 minutes.There was some frantic humping from Hannah towards the end. Otto did not like the humping and scrambled away as fast as he could (with a thump thrown in for good measure.

 

 

Bonding Session #1 – Thursday April 1st  – <5min

No stressing, I just put them together in the tub. Hannah launched herself at Otto frantically humping him every which way. I pulled her off each time because he was trying to get away and I was afraid he’d turn on her and bite her. I ended the session quickly because I was kind of freaked out about it and Hannah wouldn’t calm down.

 

 

Bonding Session #2 – Saturday April 3rd – about 15min

Decided to try bonding again, but this time with stress before the tub. We put both bunnies in the laundry basket and my husband bounced them on his knees for about 5 minutes. I waited until they had settled down in a snuggling position (rather than just trying to escape) before putting them in the tub. Otto immediately curled up in a ball once he was in the tub. Hannah totally ignored him and I think she wondered if he was a stuffed animal. After about 15 minutes of this, Otto finally moved a bit. Hannah ran over to hump him, but she was very gentle and he sat still – I let her do it for about 15 seconds then pulled her off and calmed her down with petting. A minute or two later she jumped him and started humping frantically, he scrambled away, so I separated them. Once she was calm I smushed them together for forced snuggles and petting and ended on that note.

 

 

Bonding Session #3 – Sunday April 4th – 30min

Started in the bouncy laundry basket again, but for a very short time – maybe 2 minutes, if that. Dumped them in the tub. Otto recovered faster than the day before, but he was still very quiet for at least the first 5 minutes. Hannah ignored him while he was quiet. Once he started moving again she approached to hump, but literally humped him for 2 seconds and got off on her own. Yay!  Not sure if she was really done humping or just afraid I’d come after her with the dust pan again

Both bunnies munched on hay and groomed themselves for a while. Eventually Hannah approached Otto from behind looking like she was going to hump, but she stopped and just sat by him instead. She probably did this 5 or 6 times without ever actually humping him. It was great. At one point about 20 minutes in they were sitting side by side, head to butt, and Otto flopped out  Then Hannah bunny loafed right against him and they laid like that for 5-10 minutes – Otto was asleep with eyes closed.

They woke up and hopped around eating hay for the last few minutes. At one point Hannah was eating the hay that Otto was sitting on and maybe he thought she was going to hump or something because he spun around, grunted, and snapped at her head (looked more like a warning than actually trying to bite). She looked perplexed and just sniffed his face. Haha. He might just be jumpy about the humping, but if she keeps behaving herself I think he’ll get over it pretty soon.

After 30 minutes I did some quick forced snuggling and then decided to end.

[Monkeybun]

Yay! Remember how humpy Monkey was? She got over it Hannah will too someday! hehe

[Elrohwen]

Crazy humpy bunny girls!!! Though isn’t Moosie now doing the humping?

[Monkeybun]

Moosie has never humped. He just nips and chases.

[Elrohwen]

Oh that’s right. I remembered that there was chasing going on now. Bunnies are weird.

[Deleted User]

This is going very well for you Elrohwen. Hold off with the large space and let them chill in the bathtub for some more sessions. Like the new name, it makes a nice contrast to Otto.

[Elrohwen]

Thanks Petzy. We’ll do bathtub for at least a week and see where we are. How long should I make the sessions? Should I try to go for longer and longer, or keep it around 30 minutes to make sure it’s short and positive?

Also, should we phase out the laundry basket stressing and see how they do going right into the tub? Or should we continue the initial stressing for a while? We only did it for a very short time today to kind of throw them off their game – it wasn’t a prolonged stress at all.

[Deleted User]

I would make it longer and longer, it can really work with some rabbits, and Otto already flopped during a session. Try without the bouncing stress next time.

[Elrohwen]

Great, thanks! We’ll go longer tomorrow and no laundry basket.

[mocha200]

sounds like they are getting along pretty good all ready!!! love the name!!!! i am bonding my buns in a few weeks so i am trying to read up on bonding!

[Elrohwen]

Mocha, definitely read up on tons of bonding threads! The good, the bad, and the ugly ones. I’ve read so many threads that sometimes I can channel Petzy and give advice like I actually know what I’m talking about 😛

I’ve found bonding pretty stressful initially, but it helps that at the back of my mind I more or less know what I should be doing and what’s normal for the bunnies to be doing.

[jerseygirl]

session #3 is a great progression! Good for you! Be careful with reading info and analysing too much. I recall going cross eyed from doing that. Resulted in my having a hard time to gauge where I was at at one point.

[Beka27]

Sounds great so far! They will have some good days and some bad days… but they’ll get there. Keep being consistent.

[Elrohwen]

Bonding Session #4 – Monday April 5th  – 30min

Today didn’t go quite as well as yesterday, but nothing too horrible. I put the bunnies in the tub, no stressing first. Hannah asked for grooms, Otto decided to groom his own feet instead, but maybe he got a stray lick on her forehead while he was doing it? 

Hannah decided to hump, but Otto wasn’t having it so I knocked her off. A minute later she got near Otto again and he turned around honking and lunging. *sigh* I separated them but he went at it again, so I snatched him out of the tub to settle down. Then I decided stressing was in order, so I put them in the laundry basket and shook them around for a minute.

Back into the tub for the last 20-some minutes, with some forced snuggles. Hannah was happy as a clam eating hay and grooming herself – looked totally calm. Otto was in a ball in the corner of the tub. Except, at one point, he kept digging in the corner and then flopped – not his usual feet out to the side flop, but a full on DBF. I’m guessing it was an angry flop? Haha. He did not look relaxed.

Hannah tried to sniff his bum a few times – maybe to hump, maybe not – but this ticked Otto off and would start him grunting, so I pushed her away from his bum. I tried to keep them close, but kept her from showing an interest in him and just let her go about her business. Eventually I force snuggled them for a minute then let them out.

Any suggestions? He seems to be very touchy about the humping and starts the grunting and lunging when she approaches. Should I keep her from approaching so he doesn’t have a chance to get ticked off? Should I just let her approach him and let them work it out? 

I wanted to get pics today, but I was on my own and they were being too unpredictable. I’ll have to bond with a helper tomorrow and get some shots and video.

In good news, both bunnies go into their carriers on their own to start and end a session (Otto never used to do this and I had to pick him up and throw him in the top). Hannah is very tough to pick up out of the tub, but Otto is actually pretty good now and doesn’t struggle every time (I try to make it fast – just out of tub or into laundry basket).

[Deleted User]

It takes a few sessions to get the picture of what the issues will be. Sounds like Otto is letting Hannah know he’s not going to be her toy. If you find that they start to fight in the tub, transfer to a motion stress setup on top of your washing machine. Let her approach him and see if they can settle it, but be on guard: this is  the first face-off. Wear gloves and be prepared to break them up.

[Elrohwen]

Ok, thanks for the advice. I’ll try another session in the tub tomorrow and see how it goes. Yesterday she was able to approach him without humping numerous times, but today he didn’t wait to find out.

I sit there the whole time wearing gloves and holding a platic dust pan – so I guess I’m ready for anything! I do hope no actual fighting breaks out though.

If he lunges at her, I guess I should let them go and see if she takes the hint and just leaves him alone, and also if he stops at just a lunge?

[Deleted User]

If they both go at each other, don’t wait, turn on the shower head and mist water around, it should puzzle them enough to let go. The dust pan doesn’t always work, at least for me.

[Elrohwen]

Ok, good tip.

[Elrohwen]

Would it also be a good idea to do two sessions per day if I can? I assume this would move things along faster (though I’m not yet sure *I* could handle two sessions a day).

[Deleted User]

Though overwhelming and stressful for rabbits and owner, I always held more than one session per day and I recommend it. Not only does it move things along faster, I have wondered if it changes the success rate; more sessions per day means more exposure in a shorter period of time, thus giving less opportunity for the individual rabbits to collect themselves as separate entities.

[Elrohwen]

Ok, maybe I’ll give two sessions a go tomorrow. Hopefully we can get over whatever is going on between them right now and get some calmer interactions going on.

[Elrohwen]

Bonding Session #5 – Tuesday April 6th  – 1hr 10min

Today’s session will be known as the War of the Bunny Floppies.

Well, I didn’t get up the nerve to do two sessions today, but I did do one long-ish session! I did start out with laundry basket shaking for maybe 30 seconds.

Overall, this was an extremely calm session! No humpees from Hannah. Otto did lunge at her a couple times when she approached, but he didn’t try to chase – just kind of snaked his head at her quickly. She didn’t react a bit and just sat there looking at him. Hannah did her usual – ate tons of hay, hopped around, groomed herself fully at least 3 times, etc. Otto sat in his corner, doing nothing, as usual. After about 20 minutes he got up the nerve to move around enough to get hay, but he kept either his butt or front feet firmly planted in his corner the whole session.

About 30 minutes into it, the flop war started. Hannah flopped next to Otto, so he flopped too. Any time she would move her head and touch him he would get back up, but then reflop. I think he kicked her in the face at least 3 times with all of his re-flopping  Poor Hannah. Then they spent the rest of the session flopping a million times. I’ve never seen so many bunny flops. Sometimes they were full on side flops, sometimes just back feet out. Sometimes they were parallel, sometimes not, but always a few inches away from each other – never at opposite ends of the tub.

I assume all of this flopping is good? Haha. They were pretty ridiculous. I was able to get some pics, but they’re pretty boring (in a cute kinda way). Otto looks especially ridiculous in the last picture – I never see him flop out like this unless he’s in a covered area, so it was cute to see. But you can see how he’s in his corner no matter what.

[MirBear]

can i have himm….. PLEASE im in a cuteness overload!!!
i promise i will give him back!!

[Elrohwen]

Haha. No! He’s my baby bunneh!

[skibunny8503]

I showed my husband that pic and he said “oh my gosh!”  I think we need to bond both of our pairs together haha!

 

[Elrohwen]

Lol. I have the reverse Archie and Gracie!

[jerseygirl]

Posted By skibunny8503 on 04/06/2010 06:00 PM

I showed my husband that pic and he said “oh my gosh!”  I think we need to bond both of our pairs together haha! 

For a while I thought you’d got a 4th Ski. Was thinking “how’d I miss that?!”  But now I see what you meant – the Otto/Hannah/Archie/Gracie likeness.
 

Elrohwen, flopping in close proximity like that is great!!  Such cuteness for us to see too.

 

[Elrohwen]

Jers, I almost died of the cuteness. Bunny floppies are the best, especially when they’re syncronized.

[Elrohwen]

No bonding session today. I took Hannah to the vet for a check up and nail trim and she had some mild molar spurs  They were mild enough that if they weren’t causing irritation, my vet wouldn’t have bothered trimming them, but her tongue was irritated so they trimmed away. The bill was a bit much  but I’m glad her teeth aren’t hurting her mouth anymore. Funny how she didn’t have symptoms – ate hay like a champ. I’ll just have to push the hay with her and make sure she keeps eating a lot of it.

So I’ll let her get over the anesthesia (they just did a mild dose) and try again tomorrow. Then we’re going out of town all weekend, so hopefully it doesn’t set us back too much.

[Lintini]

{{{teethy vibes for Hannah}}} They are so so cute together! Looks like Otto is in LOoOoooOove!!

[Elrohwen]

More like Hannah is in love. She adores him and is always trying to be close to him.

Otto is terrified and thinks she’s going to attack him. Lol. Such an anxious little guy! I hope he gets over it soon because Miss Hannah is ready to be bonded.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 04/07/2010 12:55 PM
More like Hannah is in love. She adores him and is always trying to be close to him.

Otto is terrified and thinks she’s going to attack him. Lol. Such an anxious little guy! I hope he gets over it soon because Miss Hannah is ready to be bonded.

 

I think a first bond is especially scary for some rabbits. What you say about Hannah and Otto reminds me of Lint and Mops; Mops was terrified of Lint but Lint was intoxicated with Mops: in the small space Mops resorted to biting Lint to as a sort of  ‘attack is the best defense’ strategy. His bites were no nips but real bites. I transferred to a large space and Mops seemed much more at ease knowing he could dart off. Keep that in mind, that sometimes the sessions in a confined area don’t look too good when one of the rabbits is afraid, in that case, you might try the larger space with more success.

 

After a few sessions of running away from Lint, Mops relaxed:

[Elrohwen]

Bonding Session #6 – Monday April 12th  – 1hr

Finally back to the bonding! We were away for a long weekend and Hannah went through a period of not eating after her teeth were done, so this is the first bonding session in almost a week.

This was fairly similar to the last session. We stressed them in the laundry basket first for a minute, then dumped them in the tub. Lots of snuggling from Hannah, lots of sitting in the corner from Otto. About 45 minutes in Otto actually left his corner and did a lap of the tub. Hannah started following him and I think was about to hump, but I told her no and did touch her once to prevent it. I figured it was the first time Otto had moved from his corner and I didn’t want her to immediately hump him and freak him out. Next time I’ll let her go and see what she does when I don’t prevent her from humping.

They did some cute flops together – they’re so funny because they have no sense of personal space. Hannah flopped out and more or less landed on top of Otto’s head. He just sat there, she sat up with an embarrassed look on her face. Haha.

Not sure what to do next. I would like to move them out into the bathroom, but the floor is slippery (more so than the tub) and I’m afraid Otto will spend all of his time in a corner. I’m also afraid that whenever he moves, Hannah gets a little too interested in him. Suggestions? I guess we have to move out of the tub at some point, so I might as well go for it. Would it be a good idea or a bad idea to put down some towels/rugs on the floor to make Otto feel more comfortable?

Petzy, I watched your videos and it’s very interesting that a big space worked better. I’m worried that Hannah will start chasing because she wants to hump and Otto will start running, but no way to know unless I try. And it seems like Mops and Lint had a similar relationship what Otto and Hannah have now so hopefully what worked for one pair works for the other.

Also, I bought a litter box big enough for the both of them. When is a good time to introduce it? Does it matter?

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 04/12/2010 05:05 PM

Not sure what to do next. I would like to move them out into the bathroom, but the floor is slippery (more so than the tub) and I’m afraid Otto will spend all of his time in a corner. I’m also afraid that whenever he moves, Hannah gets a little too interested in him. Suggestions? I guess we have to move out of the tub at some point, so I might as well go for it. Would it be a good idea or a bad idea to put down some towels/rugs on the floor to make Otto feel more comfortable?

Petzy, I watched your videos and it’s very interesting that a big space worked better. I’m worried that Hannah will start chasing because she wants to hump and Otto will start running, but no way to know unless I try. And it seems like Mops and Lint had a similar relationship what Otto and Hannah have now so hopefully what worked for one pair works for the other.

Also, I bought a litter box big enough for the both of them. When is a good time to introduce it? Does it matter?

 

I am always amazed reading of flops and grooms etc. during bathtub sessions. That’s really special and not at all to be expected. With many buns you would be glad just to get them sitting without fighting.

As long as Otto seems to want to avoid her, you can proceed to a larger space. I never used THAT large of space again for just two buns as I did for Lint/Mops, it was really extreme because Mops was so afraid but Lint was so attached. Some buns I had tried in too large an area and found they just formed ‘camps’ in opposite corners from one another. Selection of the right size space is equally as important as is selection of potential bond-mates.

Your bathroom may work as a space, depending on its lay-out; mine never worked: one rabbit would invariably end up hiding behind the toilet the entire time.

I can’t say if Otto is ready to trust Hannah enough to be sitting beside her in one litter box, yet, and I would have a second box in their space as well if you want to use litter boxes at all at this point.

Otto reminds me of Mops when he was inexperienced with other rabbits so I dug up another video. If you can get DH to help, maybe you can post one of Hannah and Otto; those early sessions are very helpful for other people to see.

Deirdra is a  female who likes to hump. I didn’t need that large of a space for these two, though, as Mops felt OK to be semi-close to her. This was their third meeting:

[Elrohwen]

I’ll definitely try to get a video soon. Mostly they’re *totally* boring and just sit and eat, or lay next to each other. I’ll need DH to get some video when Otto actually moves around and Hannah starts following him with the humpy look in her eyes. That’s really the only interesting thing that they do and really the only challenge. If they’re going to live together Otto’s going to have to move around so they can work out what to do. When he just sits in the corner, I feel like they don’t progress – it’s like he’s a stuffed animal.

It makes me so happy to know their current status is so good! Hannah really is super lovey and spends so much time trying to snuggle with Otto. He’s still anxious, but he’s calming down faster and laying with her too. I can tell he’s anxious though because he’ll be eating hay and she’ll move a little and he’ll stop chewing to watch her. Lol. But nothing serious and he isn’t doing the lunging/grunting thing anymore.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Hannah actually groomed him yesterday! It was just one or two licks above the eye, but I think I saw it. 😛

I’ll try the bathroom today or tomorrow and see how it goes. I might have better luck on the landing. We have a carpeted area that’s about 10ft by 4ft at the top of the stairs. I can close the bedroom doors and keep them from going down the stairs, so it’s just a large rectangular area. Otto has been there twice, but I don’t think it would be considered his territory.

[Elrohwen]

Bonding Session #7 – Wednesday April 14th  – 1hr 45min

I was a bad bunny mum and didn’t bond yesterday. Oops.

Today I started in the tub for an hour, this time with a towel on the floor (and no stressing). Really nothing interesting happened. Both bunnies ate hay, sat around, lounged with each other, etc. Very boring. Otto did move around more with the towel down and it was nice to see that Hannah didn’t do any humping.

Moved them out into the hallway. The hallway is a carpeted rectangle about 4ft by 13ft. I blocked it off so that it was probably only 8ft long – that way it wasn’t too big all at once and I had room in the other half of the hallway to put the things I needed. I brought the towel out of the tub with a big pile of hay and set that in the middle. At first both bunnies were pretty excited. Otto did a lot of binkies, and Hannah ran around checking everything out. A few times she approached him from behind and he flicked his feet in her face and ran off a foot or two (though not afraid, just annoyed). At one point they were side by side and she decided to hump his head, so I pulled her off. After the one hump, she was a bit over excited and kept trying to run back at him. Maybe I should’ve let them play it out, but I grabbed them and put them in the laundry basket for a quick 30 seconds of shaking. After that, they went into a corner together (well, Hannah followed Otto into the corner) and layed down together, asleep, for 20 minutes. It was very cute! Hannah did move once and made, very slowly, to hump him, but I told her no and and she got down and relaxed again.

After the nap was over Hannah decided it was potty time and decided to pee in the corner  but I got her before it was more than a dribble. Still, I figured it was time to end the session in case she needed her litter box.

Tomorrow my plan is to do a quick stress with the laundry basket then put them directly into the hallway area, avoiding the tub altogether.

I feel like I should be allowing Hannah to hump if she wants to, but it seems easier to just tell her “no” and avoid the confrontation. Otto doesn’t like it and after she humps he gets very jumpy for the rest of the session. And it’s like once she starts, she gets frantic about it and can’t stop, but if she doesn’t get a chance to start she doesn’t bother. Should I just totally let them go and see what happens? I’m not sure if I’m being too overbearing or not.

[mocha200]

sounds like they are doing good

[mocha200]

i put mocha and lulu in the petzy cube on the dryer for the first time today and nothing really happened except mocha humped a little do you think they are ready to go in the tub?

[Elrohwen]

Thanks Mocha! I just want to be done bonding already! It’s so boring and stressful to watch them do nothing for a couple hours every day. I at least want to get to the stage where they can have playtime together in the living room.

[mocha200]

yes that would be nice.!

[mocha200]

Well i am am going to try it today. i think they will do fine they seem to like each other.

[Deleted User]

your rabbits went to sleep during your session elrohwen? were they… drunk (j/k)? I don’t know any rabbits who sleep during the first week of bonding sessions so I will add this to the list of things to expect during bonding (LOL)
If these two LoveBuns went into a corner together, went to sleep, and you were this bored… I think you have hit the bonding jackpot.

[Elrohwen]

Hahaha, Petzy, they were totally out of it. Hannah had her eyes closed. Otto was in the corner and she went up to him and asked for groomies. When he didn’t comply she just relaxed, then he relaxed and laid down too. 20min later, there they were. Hannah seriously wants nothing more than to snuggle with him (and occasionally hump).

Yay bonding jackpot! Good bunnies! I still get stressed about it though – the whole time they were asleep I was afraid to leave and get my book, so I just stood there watching them. Clearly I’m the one who needs the chill pill, not the bunnies.

[Deleted User]

You posted how fast Hannah is, and things can happen at that speed… so I would not have taken my eyes off them either because they are a new bond.

[Elrohwen]

I did trust them in the tub for 20 seconds while I ran downstairs, but the hallway is like starting over again (which is what I expected). Hopefully after a few more hallway sessions I’ll trust them enough to move them into a pen in the living room (where they both normally get playtime).

[mocha200]

yay! they are doing great! how long has it been sense you started bonding them?

[Elrohwen]

Mocha, we got Hannah and did our first session exactly two weeks ago, but I’ve only done 7 sessions since we missed a few days from laziness and a vacation.

[mocha200]

wow they are doing good! it doesn’t seem like mine will ever get that good i have only done two sessions though. were yours still pretty humpy on your second session? i know i am over reacting, i am just a little scared.

[Elrohwen]

Hannah was hump-tastic during our first session and it freaked me out a bit. That’s when we considered taking her back! It let up a ton within one or two sessions, so keep going and see what happens. If they’re still humping like that after another two sessions, I would re-think your techniques and try something different. From reading others’ stories it seems that a lot of humping from the female is pretty typical at this stage.

[mocha200]

at first mocha was the humpy one but when i put them in the tub lulu went crazy.

[mocha200]

at first mocha was the humpy one but when i put them in the tub lulu went crazy.

[Deleted User]

Posted By mocha200 on 04/15/2010 09:05 AM
wow they are doing good! it doesn’t seem like mine will ever get that good i have only done two sessions though. were yours still pretty humpy on your second session? i know i am over reacting, i am just a little scared.

 

come on now, mocha 200. — cheer up! it’s not bad at all! humping is a normal part of a rabbit-rabbit introduction. it HAS to happen.

Of course, the humping will continue on for a while but it will get less. It is all good as long as the other rabbit puts up with it.

[mocha200]

when mocha does it to lulu, lulu is fine. but when lulu does it to mocha, mocha freaks out!

[Elrohwen]

It’s frustrating when you’re supposed to let them hump but one gets freaked out about it. Story of my bonding experience! I’m just trying to walk the line between letting them work it out and distracting Hannah from humping so that Otto doesn’t start a fight over it.

[mocha200]

has your buns ever had a fight?

[Deleted User]

Usually only one rabbit gets to hump, the other one must submit.

[Elrohwen]

No, but Otto was on the point of getting very ticked off about the humping – he was lunging and grunting during one session, and even chased Hannah away a bit. So I spent a few sessions keeping her from humping to let him chill out and now he doesn’t snap at her when she approaches him from behind. I think as they get more comfortable with each other I’ll focus less on making them have a positive experience and more on letting them work their communication out.

[mocha200]

is it weird that both my buns hump?

[Elrohwen]

I don’t think so – I think they just need to figure out who will be dominant. At the moment they both want to be dominant, but hopefully one of them will give it up and let the other one hump.

[mocha200]

is it good that she groomes mocha even though she humps him after?

[Deleted User]

When it ticks the other rabbit off to the point of aggression you have to interfere. Once they are bonded though you will find that only one does the humping. It is a privilege of the dominant bun.

It is not weird if both bunnies hump, but it will not go on for long; sooner or later in a bond one will become the top bunny and be the only one to hump.

[Deleted User]

Posted By mocha200 on 04/15/2010 09:31 AM
is it good that she groomes mocha even though she humps him after?

 

very good!

[mocha200]

ok thats good. will i have to wait till they stop humping before i move to a bigger place?

[Elrohwen]

Let’s move over to your bonding thread so we can keep your bunnies’ story in one place 🙂

[mocha200]

good i idea.

[Deleted User]

or we could bond a quartet of them all. LOL

[Elrohwen]

Hahaha. Petzy, there are some bunnies I love at the shelter – don’t put ideas of quartets into my head. I’ll stick with my own fairly stress-free bonding!

[mocha200]

haha.

[Deleted User]

a quartet is a pair to the power of a pair and so is their bonding — you don’t want it

[Elrohwen]

If we ever get a third, it will be with the intention to keep it as a single bun or get a fourth – I don’t think I would ever consider getting another and expecting to get a trio out of it. I might try it, but not expect it to work.

[Deleted User]

I wish the myth of the trio being the impossible bonding feat would die. Trios are an effort to bond but that’s all. Many people have trios, quartets and groups bonded. You can do it, you may need more beer though.

[Elrohwen]

Yeah, but we all know that I have very little bonding motivation. 😛 Though beer helps! I think I’m going to have a glass of wine with my bonding this afternoon.

[Deleted User]

I didn’t know. Without motivation, a trio is a very bad idea indeed. Cheers!

[Elrohwen]

I’m a wussy bonder. 😛 I think I would be better with other people’s buns, but with my own I’m too nervous.

[Deleted User]

I much rather bond my own. Other people’s are so stressful because you can’t know all their quirks and on top of worrying about injuries you have to worry about how you would tell them if their bun had to see the vet due to a bad bonding session.

[Elrohwen]

I spend too much time protecting Otto and not enough time letting them work things out. I would do better if I wasn’t so attached to one of them.

[Deleted User]

The bonder gets the blame. If I were to send my animals somewhere for bonding or whatever else, and they came back injured I would wonder what happened, I couldn’t help but blame the person inevitably.
I think the fact that you love Otto so much gives you a keener sense which helps you prevent fights.

[Elrohwen]

Good point, I would be way upset if they went away and came back injured. I’d rather be cautious and a nervous-nelly than let them get in a fight I suppose, even if it takes longer because I interfere too much.

[Elrohwen]

 Bonding Session #8 - Thursday April 15th  – 3hrs

 Today was long and tiring! At least for me. For the bunnies it will be known as “Groom me!” “No, groom me!” and the binky battle.

We went back into the hall today – 30 seconds of shaking in the laundry basket, then down into the hall. Hannah decided she needed to mark the territory and peed about 10 times in the first half an hour.  What the heck? I still need to re-check the pee spots and make sure I cleaned up well enough. I finally got smart enough to put an old towel down in the area she was peeing (in addition to a litter box) but of course she didn’t pee again after that. All poos you see were made by her, not Otto.

Anyway, the first 30min were a bit tense with both bunnies running around (not that they did anything other than run around and check each other out). After that though, they settled down and it was very boring for the rest of the time. There was a lot of “groom me!” posturing, with Hannah shoving her entire head and shoulders under Otto’s stomach. Haha. At one point they were head-to-head so I started scritching Otto’s bum because I know he’ll lick when I do this. He actually licked her a few times! Then, sometime around 2.5hrs they were snuggling and Otto actually reached over to lick Hannah’s ear all on his own. Yay for groomies!

There was also a period of frantic binkying and I was lucky enough to capture some of it on video! I don’t have any good body language videos because they’re most active for the first 30 minutes but that’s when I want to keep my eye on them.

Here’s a picture of my bonding location. For sessions I’ve added a towel with hay in the middle, plus a towel along the far wall where Hannah was peeing (and a litter box in the right corner). The bathroom door is closed during sessions.

Here are some snuggle shots. Just a few seconds after I took the second picture Otto snuggled up closer and gave Hannah a few licks on her ear. It was the first time he approached her and snuggled after she was already lying down – usually she approaches him.

 

[Minty]

They are sooo cute together, and looks like they are doing great! After reading through this thread it seems like these two have made bonding pretty easy. Hannah makes Otto look so small, i want them both If I knew bonding was going to be this straight forward I would be looking for another bun right now!

[Elrohwen]

I give a lot of credit to Otto. He is extremely quiet and subdued, so every bunny we introduced him to was totally unphased. I really had my pick because everybunny seemed to like him. I’m also lucky that Hannah was very ready to have a friend – she has a stuffed bunny that she carries all over her pen and snuggles and grooms, so it’s clear she needs another bun. Despite her initial humpiness, she really likes Otto and just wants to be with him more than he even wants to be with her. So I got lucky!

Also, Hannah is only 1lb larger than him, if you can believe it. She’s so much longer that it seems like much more!

[Elrohwen]

Yay, I was finally able to embed some video from last night! I got one with awesome binkies 😉

[mrmac]

They looks really great together. Those videos are great, I swear Otto does looked like a little stuffed toy! They are both adorable. It looks like Hannah is settling in well too! They are coming along! Good work!

[Elrohwen]

Thanks mrmac!

This morning, while Hannah was out running around, she found out how to get into Otto’s pen!  I still don’t know how she did it because I didn’t see her, but I fortified it until it looked like a castle and she hasn’t gotten in since.

When I ran over to get her out she and Otto hadn’t seen each other yet (the maze haven was between them). I ran up, they found each other and snuggled together to get away from me freaking out. Lol. I pushed Otto out of the way and shoved Hannah out of his pen. Geez, these bunnies. Hannah is a troublemaker!

[mrmac]

Hannah gets what hannah wants! They are getting close to “together” I think.

[Elrohwen]

Haha. Doesn’t Otto know he’s not allowed to have girls in his room without supervision? These hussies sneaking in at all hours *shakes head*

I’m going to do at least one more hallway session then I think I’ll move them into the living room in a pen for long sessions. I feel like I could move them straight into cementing from the hallway, but I’d rather take it slow with joint playtime in the living room. I so hope Hannah doesn’t feel the need to pee all over the living room when she’s in there with Otto

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 04/16/2010 07:37 AM

I feel like I could move them straight into cementing from the hallway, but I’d rather take it slow

 

I only caught up with your videos now and agree with you, you could move them up into the cementing phase. If you want to play it extra safe, keep at it with long sessions and test them by introducing items to them such as a hide-out box.

[Elrohwen]

Oo, good idea with the hidey box. They had a litter box, but were never in it at the same time (I think Otto only went in it once, because it required jumping to get in and out). I think I’ll do one more hallway session then pen off the living room and do sessions there. Then we can leave them for really long sessions while we watch tv and do other things, then cementing next week sometime.

Question for you – Otto is obsessed with his maze. Do you think they will ever be able to share it, or would he be territorial about it since it smells like him and has his hair all over? Should we try giving it to them after they’ve been cementing for a week or two? Or just throw it out and get another?

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 04/16/2010 12:15 PM

Otto is obsessed with his maze. Do you think they will ever be able to share it, or would he be territorial about it since it smells like him and has his hair all over? Should we try giving it to them after they’ve been cementing for a week or two? Or just throw it out and get another?

 

yes, they will be able to share it, those two will especially. Confiscate it until they’re well into their cementing like you suggested it.

 

[Elrohwen]

Ok, good.

[Deleted User]

More videos please!

[Elrohwen]

Haha. Ok, tonight! I don’t know if I can bring myself to do 3 hours again though. Maybe we’ll stick to 1.5 tonight so I can keep my sanity, then do longer ones this weekend in the living room. Hopefully the hubby will be home soon – I’m making him keep me company today since he missed out on the whole session last night.

[boogercj]

Wow, your dudes are doing fantastically well! We’re totally going to adopt your “hallway” method for our next few bonding sessions and do a couple of really long sessions this weekend. Please tell me though, what exactly will the “cementing phase” consist of?

You mentioned the introduction of objects as something to consider really carefully. We seem to have missed this as a quite crucial point, and we’ve been giving the bunnies hidey holes in case things get heated, which was probably the wrong thing to do i guess.

[Elrohwen]

Hi boogercj! I love using my hallway, except that Hannah enjoys peeing in it. Haha.

The cementing phase is where you build them a pen together – either in a semi-neutral space, or a well cleaned area that one of them has lived in. Put both bunnies in and watch them closely for about 24 hours (I plan to sleep next to the pen). Then I believe you’re supposed to keep them locked up for at least a few days if not a week so they really bond to each other and consider the other bunny “family”. Then they’re bonded!

I introduced objects slowly because sometimes bunnies can be territorial of a litter box or a hidey box, but some aren’t. And I think it’s sometimes a good idea to have a hidey box for one to escape from the other (as long as there are two holes to enter/exit through). So I don’t think you did anything wrong! Different things work for different bunnies. Mine didn’t need anywhere to escape, so I wanted to hold off on extra objects so they wouldn’t get territorial.

[Minty]

Elrohwen, I’m wondering if you’ve noticed a difference in Otto’s personality since you’ve brought Hannah home? Does he appear ‘happier’ or more outgoing? I’ve noticed many owners of bonded pairs saying that when they had a single bun they thought their bun was happy but there was no comparison to how they were with a partner. (As you can tell I’m trying to weigh the pros and cons of one bun vs. two!) Sounds like Otto and Hannah are well on their way to being an official bunny couple! Can’t wait for all the snuggly pictures

[jerseygirl]

I’m betting Otto will be more adventurous and getting into trouble more often. It’s going to be great! hehehe

[Deleted User]

Cementing should preferrably be done in neutral territory but with rabbits like Otto and Hannah this may not be necessary. During cementing the rabbits should stay in their new shared space for an amount of time without being let out. The amount of time varies; the harder the bond, the longer the cementing phase should last. Cementing refers to that phase in bonding where you make the new bond ‘stick and set’.

[Elrohwen]

Sullysmum, I haven’t really noticed a change in him at this point – he’s pretty much his old self. He is more active in the morning and will come up and greet me at his pen, instead of snoozing, but I’m not sure if that’s because he wants to see me or is just looking out for Hannah to come and sniff noses through the pen. Either way, he lets me give him some morning pets which he didn’t do before.

I’ll be watching for a hawk for personality changes once they are officially bonded. I hope he gets a little more adventurous! I’ll be sad if he ignores us more in order to spend time with his buddy.

[Moonlight_Wolf]

Wow your two are doing fantastically! I don’t think Otto will change much towards you, Fern did not, the only thing I noticed is that I now see another side of her – I see how she interacts with other bunnies. I used to think that she was a submissive pushover, but I was wrong because she is the boss of thistle and chases him away from their lettuce! poor thistle!

[Elrohwen]

Thanks Moonlight! Ironically, I think it will help that he’s a slightly aloof bunny. If he was outgoing towards everyone, bunnies included, I can see how he might give us up for another bunny. But since he’s always been aloof, we have spent *so much* time with him getting him to be snuggled, so I imagine he won’t forget the year of bonding we did with him first. I hope not anyway!

[Elrohwen]

Bonding Session #9 - Sunday April 18th  – 2hrs 30mins

From a combination of laziness/business I didn’t do any bonding for the last few days.

We went back to the hallway space today for 2.5 hours with nothing new to report. They ran around for 30 minutes, Hannah demanded lots of grooms, then they laid down together and napped. No humping or nipping. They would periodically get up to eat or run around, then nap together again. Just being bunnies! Hannah does demand grooming, but she seems to relax and snuggle pretty quickly when she doesn’t get it. Otto will occasionally go head to head demanding grooms, but for the most part doesn’t bother. I figure it’s just a matter of time.

I was trying to figure out what we could put on their heads, since neither like banana. They do love dried papaya, so we put some in a little bit of water and microwaved it, hoping it would dissolve a bit. Then I used a q-tip to put the papaya-y water on their heads. They seemed extremely interested in the q-tip and followed me around trying to find the source of the smell, but then totally ignored the sugary water on eachother’s heads. Oh well. I did get Otto to give Hannah a lick or two by scritching his bum, but he mostly tried to groom himself when I did that and avoided licking her.

I think we’re ready to cement though! We’re too lazy to set up the new pen tonight, so I think I’m going to do a session in the living room tomorrow afternoon, then when my husband gets home from work we’ll set up their new pen and move them in and I’ll sleep with them overnight. I’ll be home all day Tuesday except I think I have a doctor’s appointment around 1pm. Hopefully I have enough confidence in them to leave for an hour or so, but I don’t think it’ll be a problem.

Sorry no pics or video! I did bring my camera, but it was so boring and they slept so much that it didn’t seem worth it.

[Elrohwen]

Bonding Session #10 - Monday April 19th  – Cementing

Tonight is cementing!! I doubt I’ll get much sleep on the living room couch, so wish me luck.

We’re about half an hour in and Hannah has started out tense as usually – running around, forcefully demanding grooms (not really nipping though), etc, but she’s starting to settle down, right on her usual schedule.

We set up the pen kind of between the living room and dining room. This way we can easily see them from all rooms on the first floor. Also, they’re right off the living room rug. After they’ve been together in the pen for 24 hours or so, I want to allow them supervised playtime in just the living room together. That way it’s basically an enlarged pen where they can still see each other and won’t be far away (normally Hannah would run off into the dining room, which I want to avoid at first). Once they’ve been living in the new pen and having playtime for a week, we’ll move the cage set up back to the dining room where it usually goes (and make it bigger).

Here’s a picture of their set up. Before I go to bed I’ll probably add a willow tent, since they both like to sleep under cover and they can fit under it at the same time. I put in their new large litter box, plus Otto’s regular one (the black one in the foreground) mostly to provide an extra hay location. I have a bet going that Otto will only pee in his own litter box – not because it smells like him or anything, just because he has only used that box and is such a strange bunny that I can see him continuing to only use that box.

[Beka27]

Good lord. You don’t mess around. I haven’t kept up-to-date with your thread but I just saw the “cementing” subject line while I was flipping thru real quick. She is beautiful. I’m glad things are progressing so well!

[Elrohwen]

Thanks, Beka! They’ve had a very quick bonding story. Everything is so calm and so boring that I just figured what the heck – let’s do it. The longest they’ve been together is 3 hours straight with nothing happening, so I figure we might as well see how far we get. I can always separate them for the night if they seem to be really getting on each other’s nerves.

Now that I’m doing this, I really wish I had started at 10am or something. Starting at 8:30pm isn’t a great idea! Now I feel like I can’t go to sleep at all, since things are still slightly tense. I just don’t trust them enough to go to sleep any time soon.

Otto has started humping Hannah *headdesk* What is his deal?? It seems like she is extra nervous, being in an open area, but he is very comfortable since the living room has always been where he hangs out (Hannah tends to hang out in the dining room and only use the living room for bunny 500s and exercise, not relaxing). It seems like Otto is taking her nervous attitude as an opportunity to claim top bun or something. He’s very slow about his humping and gives me at least a 10 second notice, but still, I feel like I can’t stop watching them for a second. The two times he’s done it so far (granted, only twice in almost 2.5hrs) it was on her face, so I had to stop him. If he humps her the correct way I’ll let him go for a few seconds as Hannah doesn’t seem to mind (she just seems very confused). Blah. I’m definitely learning that whomever is the most comfortable in a space has an advantage. Hannah has been the most confident in all the bonding situations so far, but not this one. I wonder if he only humps her face because her booty is far too big for him  Her face seems smaller and more humpable maybe.

I’ll admit, when he started the humping thing, I was tempted to separate them for the night, then start again in the morning (treating this as just a bonding session). We did tear down their pens, but they could both spend the night in their pet store cages. I’m still considering it, but I also think that if I just let things play out, even if I don’t get much sleep, by 10am tomorrow they’ll be pretty much bonded! Just gotta stick it out ….

As I was typing this Otto humped her twice on the face. Ugh. Stop it Otto! Just snuggle! And somebody groom somebody else!

[Minty]

It sounds like they’re still doing okay. I’d stick with it unless a real fight breaks out. They are soo cute together, I can’t get over it! Hopefully you will get some sleep tonight and have two bonded bunnies in the morning

[Elrohwen]

Not only is it a bad idea to start an over-night at 8:30, but it’s obviously bunny busy-time too! They’re running all over and being nutters, but I don’t want to let them out. They’re snuggling a little bit now, but their snuggling to running around ratio is much higher in the middle of the day! 😛 As long as they don’t turn their energy towards bugging the other bun I’ll be happy.

[jerseygirl]

It’s great your at this point. From what I’ve seen, there often is a little bit of scuffling or dominance plays at this point. But it’s important for them to move forward so do let it play out if there’s not true fighting. I wonder is Hannah lowers her head when Otto approaches and instead of grooming, he humps? They’ll figure it out. Maybe keep a spray bottle on jet stream near you. That way if he face mounts, you can give one quick squirt to distract him. Plus you don’t have to get up…:o) .

I wonder if you hang a sheet around the outside on 2 walls, whether that would help Hannah settle? Obviously not on the sides where you need to see in.

[Elrohwen]

Jers, he’s definitely humping when she’s in the head down position. Interestingly, he was doing it almost exclusively in the big litter box – I’m guessing he was staking some kind of territory there. I kicked him out a few times and now he’s been ok. She goes in by herself and he’s fine, and they’ve been in it together a few times without more humping. The first humps weren’t in the litter box, but all of the most recent have been. She’s approached him with her head down a million times (at least it seems like it) and he’s only humped a few, so that’s good. I wish he would just groom her and get it over with!

The one time he humped her the correct way I waited a sec, but Hannah was out from under him like a shot, so there wasn’t anything to stop.

And I’ve got my handy squirt bottle! Otto is oblivious to it unless it’s a direct face hit (his bum was wet for at least an hour and I didn’t accomplish anything) so I’m getting better with my aim. And he gives off enough signals that I’m able to catch him pretty early if he’d going to do it. And the squirt bottle has been very handy when Hannah tries to shove the cage all over. Haha.

Things have settled a bit in the last half hour. Hannah isn’t as nervous of the new area and Otto has decided to just flop out on the ground by himself. Hannah’s too keyed up snuggle with him – I think she just wants to run and get her energy out, which she didn’t really get to do before we put them together. I’m definitely considering the sheet thing though – might try that soon, except Hannah will probably try to eat them through the bars 😛

[Elrohwen]

At 1:18am, Hannah groomed Otto! They finally settled down for a snuggle after lots of running around and throwing things about the cage and I look over to see Hannah giving Otto a few licks. Yay!

I’m so exhausted, but I can’t stop now. Man, I wish I was a night owl!

[Minty]

Any updates from this morning? Hope things went well for you last night!

[Elrohwen]

Hey Sullysmum! They’re still together! Yay! I was so close to giving up because I didn’t think I would ever be able to sleep and leave them be, but at 3am I decided to just try to sleep and see what happened. I didn’t sleep great, but I was able to get some sleep in between 3 and 10:30 and they’re still happily together.

Otto-the-hump-machine knocked off the humping. They’re actually snuggling in the litter box right now and he hasn’t tried to hump Hannah, so I think he’s over trying to claim space.

They were both going nutter again around 5am and I wished I could let them out! So hard to do binkies in an xpen. But I’m going to keep them together all day today and then they’ll get some exercise soon. Maybe I’ll let them out at 8:30 tonight (because they’ll have had 24hrs together or just wait until I wake up tomorrow morning.

Petzy (or anyone else), if I let them out to run around in the living room, should I expect them to be humpy/tense again when they return to their xpen? I ask because I don’t want to be in the same situation where it’s 8:30 and I can’t leave them to go to sleep. Or I let them out in the am and I can’t leave them to go to the bunny rescue because they’re acting goofy again. If that’s the case, I’ll just wait until I get back from the bunny rescue to let them out for exercise time.

[Elrohwen]

Ugh, Hannah is still peeing all over the place within the pen. There are two litter boxes and she does use them – the pee she leaves around the pen is a small amount. I briefly thought UTI, but she’s only peeing around the edges of the pen, which seems like marking to me. Is this normal? I know poop wars are common, but what about pee wars once they’re living together? I just hope it goes away! I’m sick of cleaning up pee, especially because she pees on the grass mats and phone book which aren’t cleanable. I’m afraid to let her out into the living room for exercise where she could pee on the carpet.

[Elrohwen]

Another odd behavior besides Hannah’s peeing – Otto seems very ticked off about something. He’s stomping around flicking his feet at anything. He’s not actually doing anything to Hannah, he just asks like he’s angry about something. And when Hannah tries to snuggle with him, he seems tense and then gets up and lays down somewhere else. I guess he doesn’t appreciate being forced to live with her full time!

[Deleted User]

Don’t let them out of the pen. Cementing is done in confinement. As Otto and Hannah are such a quick bond, I would cement them at least until the weekend. So, that will be four more days of being exclusively in the pen. The reason for this is that if you let them out, they have to rearrange themselves again when you pen them up. Every time you transfer from larger to smaller space, they may increase marking and humping again. Just leave them be and really settle in. Once you think their cementing is complete test them with Otto’s maze. If they share that — your work is done.
About the peeing, I found that it usually has to do with one rabbit’s insecurity about the litterbox. Even though there may be several litterboxes available, some rabbits are apprehensive in the beginning of a new bond to use them all the time. My Neigey was like that for quite a while. If you think there may be something wrong with Hannah’s urinary system, you can separate her for a night and see if she has those accidents then. If you do decide to interrupt the cementing for this reason, make sure to house Otto somewhere other than the shared xpen for when you test her litter habits.

[Elrohwen]

Petzy, her litter habits were fine the nights before in her own pen except for one accident, so I’m guessing you’re right about the litter box insecurity.

Good to know about not letting them out. I’ll leave them in the pen then!

And I figured out why Otto is acting so ticked off – he has cecals stuck to his bum! He has a huge ball of them which I pulled off. I flipped him over and it seems like he’s a little messy, but doesn’t have stuck on poos. The fur is just brown and a little icky. Ugh. I’m not sure if it warrants a butt bath yet, but I’ll keep an eye on him.

eta: Picked him up again and the cecals are worse than I thought  I think I have to do a butt bath, but I’m not really sure how to do it myself. It might be worth separating them and taking him to the vet to do it. I’m so bummed out.

[Elrohwen]

Otto’s going to the vet at 2pm to get his bum cleaned 🙁 Boo, Otto bunny! He’s always been so clean before.

Would it be a horrible idea to leave Hannah in the communal pen? I know it’s not a *good* idea, but it’s the easier thing to do. Otto and I will be gone about 1.5hrs. I could also bring Hannah to the vet with me, but I’m tentative to put them in the same carrier when there’s no one else in the car (actually I’m more afraid of them getting on each other’s nerves during the wait in the vet’s office than in the car). Opinions?

[Minty]

Is there another cage you can put Hannah in while you’re gone? She might claim the Xpen as hers if Otto is gone for too long

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 04/20/2010 09:55 AM
Otto’s going to the vet at 2pm

Would it be a horrible idea to leave Hannah in the communal pen? I know it’s not a *good* idea, but it’s the easier thing to do.

 

You have come so far and they are doing so well, why take a risk like that? Don’t do it. Use the vet trip as another session. Bring a box along with holes in it, for the event that they have to be separated. That’s what I would do.

[Elrohwen]

Let the cementing continue!

I didn’t bring Hannah to the vet – I was alone in the car with them and everything, so I skipped it. I did put Hannah back in her old cage though while we were gone, as you guys recommended.

I just introduced them back in their pen. Otto smells funny, of course, so Hannah decided to hump him right away. Now a few minutes in they seem ok. Otto is still ticked off and flicking his feet everywhere, but hopefully he doesn’t have any more poopy butt problems. Hopefully in 30min or so they’ll be back to the calmness of this morning (or at least when Otto’s bum dries off)

I am worried about a potential UTI in him now though. Right before I put him in his carrier he jumped in the litter box and lifted his tail. A second later he jumped out, ran to the other box, and lifted his tail. I didn’t see pee in either box. Hannah wasn’t in the pen anymore so I don’t think it was dominance related and a charge stance would be pretty far from his usual character. The vet tech said he was probably fine, but I’m going to watch him tonight and take him to the vet tomorrow if necessary.

[Elrohwen]

Quick update: Otto and Hannah have been together again for almost 3 hours and are quietly snuggling in the corner 🙂 I love afternoon bonding where they just snuggle and don’t do anything!!

I’m planning to sleep on the couch again, but hopefully I get more sleep. I’m starting to feel the lack of it since I only got 4-5 hours last night.

There’s a slight chance that Otto has a UTI, so I’m keeping him under watch. If he does need to go back to the vet tomorrow, I’ll definitely bring Hannah along in the same carrier (with the other carrier there to separate them if necessary).

[Lintini]

{{vibes for Otto bun}} I am so happy for you that they are getting along so well!

[Elrohwen]

Aww, thanks Lintini!

Hannah has started grooming Otto a bit more regularly. It’s cute, because she’ll get a little too rough and he’ll startle, then he’ll put his head right back down so she can go back to grooming. Haha. I know she really wanted to get groomed first, but she loved grooming her stuffed toy so much that I figured she’d give in and groom Otto eventually.

[Elrohwen]

Argh. They are so good 95% of the time, but then they go hump crazy. This morning they woke me up at 6am – Otto was chasing Hannah around humping her. It always ends with her in the litter box, facing him, and him humping her face. I sprayed them down with water, but he did it again in about 10 minutes.

Just 10 minutes ago, around 9pm, Hannah decided it would be a good time to chase Otto around the cage humping him, so he ran for his life, she chased him, I sprayed them, etc.

I hope they knock this off soon. It’s not horrible behavior by any means, but I’m afraid the humpee is going to turn around and take a bite out of the humper if I’m not here to stop them (especially since it almost always comes down to head humps).

My theory is that one of them really demands grooms and when they don’t get it, they hump. I haven’t quite seen this happen, but after I pull them off each other the humper starts demanding grooms. Whatever their reasons, I hope they knock it off soon.

[Deleted User]

Has there been any biting so far? If there hasn’t, and the chasing and humping activities are not ‘horrible’ as you put it, I doubt anybun is going to bite now.

*I would not introduce Otto’s maze until the humping frenzy dies down. It will once they sort out who is boss.

How is their marking?

[Elrohwen]

Nope, no biting, just running away from the humping. And when it turns into face humping Hannah just sits there and takes it (though this is obviously when I’m the most nervous). Two mornings in a row, at exactly 6am, Otto had a hump frenzy. Last night at 9 Hannah did it, so we’ll see if she repeats today. I swear Otto is looking at the clock, “Ok, 5:57 …. hump time!!”

How long does it generally take for this stuff to die down? Can I let them out for exercise if it’s still going on or should I wait for that too? DH thinks they may be humping because they’re bored and have nothing else to do and need to get their energy out somehow.

There’s very little poop marking, and zero pee marking during the day, but every morning I wake up to 2-3 pee spots. Though sometimes I think Hannah pees during the humping (or when I spray them with water) as a nervous thing. I haven’t actually seen her pee purposefully the way she did during bonding, though she could be doing it after I’m asleep.

[Deleted User]

I agree with your DH. Some exercise now will cut down on their stress, too. Let them out of the pen today.
It is hard to say how long they will keep this up, some rabbits are very humping-oriented, others give it up completely. It also depends on the pairing, a rabbit may be humpy with one rabbit but not with another. One of them will soon have to give it up.
Yes, I remember the dawn humpfests between Lint and Mops… I didn’t need an alarm clock then.

[Elrohwen]

They’re very sweet and quiet most of the time and really love to snuggle together. I’ve even seen each of them groom the other once or twice, but it’s not that common yet. I’ll let them out for exercise this evening, just in the living room rug area so it’s like an extension of their pen. Hannah especially seems to be going a bit stir crazy in the evenings.

[Beka27]

My Max humps Meadow everyday, sometimes several times a day. They’ve been together for almost two years. She either hops away, or she lays down and… deals with it. They will sometimes do a playful kind of chase too, but neither becomes aggressive. They have enough space, even if they are penned up, and I’ve never seen a fight break out since they’ve been bonded. So… humping isn’t always a big deal as long as they work it out amongst themselves what is okay and what isn’t.

[Elrohwen]

Thanks Beka. I mostly worry because neither likes to be humped and they run away while the other one clings to them/chases them. I wish one would just sit quietly until it was over! It might help when they have more space too. They’re in one xpen right now, but their space will double (and they’ll have exercise time) when we put them in their permanent set up. They might just be going a little stir crazy.

[Deleted User]

Once the dominance is decided and one rabbit only humps, the other will be more likely to sit still for it. Some rabbits never do but it doesn’t matter. I tell you there is no rabbit who likes to be humped.

[Elrohwen]

Hahaha. I don’t think I would enjoy getting randomly humped either! Especially not on the face 😮

[Elrohwen]

We let them out in the living room and it was a big hit! About five minutes in Otto wanted to hump, but I made him get off and that was that. They spent a few hours running around and having a ball, then happily went back in their pen.

I’m sleeping on the couch again and I hope it’s the last night. I’m exhausted! Fingers crossed Otto can make it to 7am without going hump crazy.

Hannah hasn’t humped him in 24 hours, so I’m hoping that’s a sign that they’re figuring out this dominance thing. It kind of cracks me up that Hannah was dominant at first, but now she wants nothing more than to sit next to Otto at all times, even if it means she lets him be in charge. Otto, on the other hand, was far from dominant to start, but once we moved into the living room it’s like he said “Ok, my house my rules!”. He’s a quiet little dictator. I don’t notice any dominant behavior from either of them other than Otto’s humping – they seem to be pretty equal opportunity groomers and eaters.

Saw a little more grooming action which was awesome. They don’t do it for long, but they’re doing it more regularly. Also, no peeing on the carpet during play time!! I hope I don’t have to wake up to any more pee spots in the pen tomorrow.

[Elrohwen]

No marking last night!! Whoohoo! So night to wake up to zero pee stains.

I did wake up at 1:30 to Otto humping Hannah. Then again at 5:30. But the good news is that Hannah hasn’t humped him in almost 2 days, so I think they’re figuring out the dominance thing. She’s also gotten much better at predicting when he’ll hump and just hopping away. If she hops away, he doesn’t chase. It’s only if he’s mid hump when she runs that he follows her, so it’s been much more calm with her handling it that way.

They’re also loving the time to run around the living room and it hasn’t caused any problems yet.

[Elrohwen]

*sigh* We still have humping from both bunnies. I don’t know if they do it after we’ve gone to bed (I’m no longer sleeping on the couch) but one of them (at least) humps the other every day. The other runs. I was hoping they had picked a dominant bun by now, but perhaps not.

I’ve also noticed some dominance related behavior which is usually linked to whoever is doing the humping at that time. Last night I was giving them both pieces of papaya, and they were clamoring on my lap to get it. Hannah decided she wanted to be first and humped Otto. Other times, they’ll both be in a litter box and Otto will hump her to claim the litter box. 95% of the time they’re fine, but I do notice these little behaviors that always occur around the time of the humps. The humping is almost always in the evening when they’re full of energy and running around, but now they have the living room to get some of their energy out.

[Beka27]

Do you have two litterboxes in with them or just one? My thought is, as long as they are getting along, these behaviors should work themselves out. I know it’s frustrating to see them humping each other and one running, but it’s normal.

[Elrohwen]

They have two litter boxes. They seem to use the large one for a bathroom and the smaller one (that used to be just Otto’s) as a bed. Weirdos. They will be fine in the litter box together 20 times, sleeping and snuggling and everything, then all of a sudden Otto will decide he doesn’t really want her there and will hump.

Same with getting treats – they’ll get treats together all the time, but one time Hannah gets over-excited and decides she’s going to hump Otto so she can get to the treat first.

All of the humps seem to come with over-excitement I think. Otherwise they’re getting along fantastically and snuggle constantly.

[Sarita]

When Twizzler was alive she used to hump Toffee when she got excited – mainly over food. That would be the only time she would hump her and Toffee was fine with it.

[Elrohwen]

Sarita, I don’t mind them humping, I guess I’m just concerned that they’re both humping. I wish they would pick a humper and stick to it. I don’t want them to get frustrated about dominance issues to the point where they lash out, though I honestly think that’s unlikely.

It’s funny that they never hump at remotely the same time. They always hump 12 hours apart from each other, so one is clearly the boss at that point in them, but then they’ll swap a day or so later.

[Deleted User]

That’s funny. I have never had a pair like that. My money is on Hannah to be the final humper.

[Elrohwen]

Haha, my money is also on Hannah! Though Otto has been humping more often than her lately, I just don’t think he has the strength of personality to be top bun 😛

I watched him last night – he very quietly started leaning on her, then got a paw over her, then was just kind of on top of her, *then* he humped. Lol. It was so slow motion. I didn’t stop him and just watched. Hannah ran away from him, but this time he didn’t cling to her or chase, just let her go. She came back and he did it again, but once again he just let her get away easily. When she came back to him again he didn’t hump anymore.

I also see them doing some pre-humping behaviors – usually they start rubbing their nose into the back fur of the other – but stopping before they actually hump.

They’re weird bunnies.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 04/27/2010 06:24 PM

I also see them doing some pre-humping behaviors – usually they start rubbing their nose into the back fur of the other – but stopping before they actually hump.

this is a good description. In the beginning of some bonds, this can also lead to butt-nipping.

[Monkeybun]

Monkey does that rubbing her face on Moosie’s fur thing. Sometimes thats all she does, sometimes it leads to a hump. Weirdo. I’ll restart bonding again soon… can’t let too many pairs get ahead of me

[boogercj]

This is a great thread guys, thanks Elrhowen!

Our little Miranda started humping Ariel for the first time 2 nights ago, and it’s great to hear the descriptions you give. They’re really good accounts and gives me/everyone else peace of mind that it’s all perfectly “normal” (as normal as things can be. Rabbits are very silly!)

[Elrohwen]

Haha, humping will never seem normal to us humans, but for them it’s very normal.

MB, can’t wait til you start bonding again! You were so close to being done last time. Moosie just needs to get it together and realize he’s gotta put up with Miss Monkey.

[Monkeybun]

When we let them out each day to play, separately for now, Monkey always runs straight for his pen and binkies around. She loves being near him. Moose just tries to nip her The big meanie.

[Deleted User]

What’s new with Otto and Hananah?

[Elrohwen]

I think Hannah is winning the war. I haven’t seen any humps from Otto in the past few days. I haven’t seen any humps from Hannah either, but I did go out for 30 min and came back to a clump of Otto hair in the cage which I’m assuming came from her humping (since she’s only ever pulled fur while humping). She also does the pre-humping actions fairly often and he’ll hop away a few steps if she approaches him from behind as if he expects humping.

Otherwise they’re good! I think we’re going to move them into the dining room tomorrow using Otto’s old cage + the pen. I hope it goes well and I hope they still come out in the living room and hang out with us 🙂

Hannah’s also settled down a bit in the living room and spends more time sleeping and less time being a pain.

[Deleted User]

Hannah is getting smart. She waits until you go out to bother Otto (your favorite) — this is very cunning of her.

[Elrohwen]

Hahaha, I think she does! Clearly she’s humping him based on the way he acts when she comes up behind him, but I haven’t seen her actually do it in a while.

I told you she’s smarter than me!

[Elrohwen]

I do find it funny how much she seems to *need* him. He almost never approaches her for snuggles, but she is constantly seeking him out and smushing up against him.

She’s also started doing that weird eye grooming/biting thing that’s so common and it’s so funny. Otto will jump momentarily, but then let her keep doing it. He’s a more gentle groomer, but neither of them are very thorough – I’ve never seen them groom longer than 10-20 licks.

[Deleted User]

Well, I’m happy to hear that Otto is getting used to her. It was a shock to him I am sure, even though essentially as a rabbit he is bound to like another rabbit.

I think, dominant bunnies are like bossy people: they need company because without — who could they boss around?

[Elrohwen]

Hahahaha, that is so true. She likes having Otto as her little boy toy.

And I don’t see him complaining about the snuggling 😛 Even when he’s laying against the couch and she comes up and squishes him into the side of the couch – he just puts up with it.

And I’ve realized how dim Otto is. He really does spend quite a large amount of time staring into space compared to Hannah 😛 Maybe he’s just not as curious as her, but I think the brain power just isn’t there. He makes up for it in cuteness though.

[Elrohwen]

I think we can call Otto and Hannah a bonded pair!!! Yesterday we moved them from the living room back into the dining room and we set up Otto’s old cage as it was – Superpet Giant cage + xpen. We gave them a bunch of toys and a willow tent, but not the Maze overnight. The Superpet cage is fantastic for keeping the hay contained (a problem with the xpen) and it now has just a large litter box and a few hay racks (that’s the only thing in there) with the food and other litter box in the pen area. We haven’t left the Maze Haven in overnight, but we give it to them while supervised and it hasn’t caused a problem. Otto hasn’t spent much time in his Maze Haven (he used to sleep in there all day) and now spends time in the living room.

Otto is better with crossing the hardwood floors and spent most of the day in the living room while Hannah lounged on the hardwood in the dining room. Then they came back together and snuggled in the living room during the evening.

There is still minor humping from both of them, but it seems less than before. It also seems that Hannah is humping more than Otto, so maybe they’re working out a dominance solution.

It’s pretty safe to call them bonded now. Yay! Just one month from when we picked up Hannah (then Merlin) in NYC we have two bonded bunnies. Hannah’s also far better about being a troublemaker now that she has the whole dining room and kitchen to run around in – she hasn’t been a pain in the butt since we moved them out of the living room.

[Minty]

Congrats! I am so happy to hear this! They are such an adorable couple and their bonding seemed pretty stress free which is good Can’t wait for the snuggly pics!

[Elrohwen]

I’ll have to compile some of the snuggling pics and start a thread 😉 They were really easy, thank goodness.

[Lintini]

CONGRAAAAATS!!!

[Elrohwen]

Thanks!!

[Deleted User]

Looking back, Elrohwen, how would you describe the process? I really thought it was worth it that you bonded them yourself.

[Elrohwen]

It was stressful, but ended up being far far easier than I thought due to them. I’m glad I just sucked it up and did it myself, but if they had been more difficult I wouldn’t have regretted taking them to someone else to bond. I was very lucky to get such easy bunnies.

[Elrohwen]

I need advice!

I woke up at 5:30am to chasing sounds, so I went downstairs. Otto was humping and chasing so I made him stop then went back upstairs. Not 5 minutes later I heard more chasing so I went downstairs again to find them fighting  Head to head, circling around, not to be detered by the spray bottle, fighting. I don’t think they drew blood, just pulled a lot of fur on both sides. I separated them so we could go back to sleep, but around 6:30 gave up trying to sleep and put them back together. The initial meeting was slightly tense, but nothing happened. They seem a bit on guard every time they meet but no humping or fighting.

What do I do now? They only hump from 8:30-10:30pm and 5:00-5:30am and now that it’s triggered a fight I don’t think I can leave them alone during those times. Do I just leave them together and supervise during the humping times? They’ve been humping for over 2 weeks now – how will I know that they’re not going to start another fight?

[Karla]

They actually hump at certain times? How is that?

Do you think they hump out of stress or dominance? I just wonder why they keep humping. If it is still a dominance thing, I would supervise them and actually let them hump each other – but interfere when it gets too much. They need to settle it.

[Elrohwen]

Yep, they hump at certain times – late evening and about 5am. Of course those are their most active times, but I’m not sure why it results in humping every single day. There doesn’t seem to be any other common denominator and it doesn’t seem to happen in particular situations (around food, litter box, etc) – just particular times. One of them, usually Otto, but occasionally Hannah, just gets humpy and goes at it until I stop it. There’s a lot of frantic chasing and face humping, so I usually end up stopping it because it seems to escalate. I’m sure there have been times I haven’t been around to stop it and they’ve settled it without fighting, but this morning it was too much.

I’ll just have to be around during the humping times so I can supervise, but I’ll try to let them do it.

They never hump at other times and spend all day snuggling. I don’t get it. Usually once I stop it they don’t do it again until the next humping time, but I’m guessing Otto went back at it today and that ticked Hannah off and started the fight. They weren’t in the death roll type of fight, it looked more like they were both trying to nip each other in the shoulder area and gain the advantage.

[Elrohwen]

Today is my day to work at the rescue and the owner suggested I bring both bunnies down in a carrier. The long car ride and being in a strange house will be good for them I think.

[Elrohwen]

I chatted with the woman at the rescue who does all of the bonding and her recommendation was to make them sleep in a smaller cage at night where they can’t chase as much. They’re going to lend me a cage (smaller than my 4’x2′ one) to keep them in for a couple nights. Hopefully it works! Looks like I’ll be sleeping on the couch again (or at least waking up at 4:30 and then sleeping on the couch).

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 05/05/2010 04:07 AM

What do I do now? They only hump from 8:30-10:30pm and 5:00-5:30am and now that it’s triggered a fight I don’t think I can leave them alone during those times. Do I just leave them together and supervise during the humping times? They’ve been humping for over 2 weeks now – how will I know that they’re not going to start another fight?

 

These times are the active times of crepuscular animals which is why they will engage in energetic behaviors. As both had been humping taking turns, a face-off was inevitable.

I agree, smaller space will help the cementing, but you have to supervise during the critical times (dawn and dusk).

If they are not injured, let the cementing continue.

[Karla]

Posted By Elrohwen on 05/05/2010 06:48 AM

I chatted with the woman at the rescue who does all of the bonding and her recommendation was to make them sleep in a smaller cage at night where they can’t chase as much. They’re going to lend me a cage (smaller than my 4’x2′ one) to keep them in for a couple nights. Hopefully it works! Looks like I’ll be sleeping on the couch again (or at least waking up at 4:30 and then sleeping on the couch).

I can definitely recommend this. I’ve done this with Molly and Jack. First, when I introduced Jack, and he and Molly were not quite settled on who should dominate who. And later on, when Molly would chase Jack when he was being ill, because I noticed the tiffs would only occur when Jack was running away from Molly.

So defintely try this and best of luck!

[Elrohwen]

Stupid bunnies … I’m not really looking forward to waking up at 4:30 to supervise.

I have another question about cage set up. I’m going to use my 4’x2′ Superpet cage for tonight. Now, it has a shelf on one side and I’m not sure if I should remove it or not. The pro is that Hannah could easily jump onto it to get away from Otto. The cons are that I can’t see them as well when they’re under the shelf and I’m afraid if they do start fighting again it will be much harder to separate them.

So do I take the shelf out? I think I should, but just wanted to check.

eta: Now that I think of it, the cage Hannah came with was a Superpet, but a bit smaller – maybe 3.5’x1.5′. Maybe I should just use that. Plus, Otto has never been in it, so he might be less likely to be territorial (if that’s a cause of his humping). And there’s no shelf and it’s easier to see inside it.

[Deleted User]

Try them out in both cages during the day to see what works better.

[Elrohwen]

Petzy, how will I know when they’re done sleeping in a small cage? When one humps and the other accepts it?

[Deleted User]

Yes, that’s how I would interpret it too.
–It is possible that this cage will be too small for them; it may elevate stress or aggression. Observe them carefully: is one trying to squish up against a cage corner stressed? Are they ‘freezing up’? If these things occur the cage is the wrong place for them.

[Elrohwen]

Ok, I’ll watch them. Generally they’re fine in small spaces – they spent most of yesterday sleeping in one part of the maze haven squished up together. So I think they’ll be fine in either cage 95% of the time and it’s during the humpy times when I need to watch closely to see how they react.

I’m also going to assume that Otto will hump her face. In the past when she has backed into a corner to get away from him, he just humps her head. She stays still and quiet for this, but obviously I still need to stop it. Should I pull him off and let him go (he will likely hump again)? Or pull him off and try to settle him down so he stops humping altogether (what I usually do)? I’m not sure if I should interefere as little as possible or interfere to the point where I totally calm them back down. Not sure if that made sense  I just don’t want Otto to lose any of his remaining man-parts.

[Deleted User]

Have you tried a stunt double for the humping?

[Elrohwen]

I can try. I still have Hannah’s stuffie that she came with, so I’m sure it smells very strongly of her. Since Otto’s doing the vast majority of the humping now (Hannah only humped him once in the past week that I saw) I can try using it with him.

Do I just give it to him when he gets excited and starts humping? Do I kind of direct him to it?

[Deleted User]

I have used the doubles to direct a humping bun. You would take the humper off the live rabbit and set him onto the double. He may just stop and go back to the live bunny but some bunnies take to the doubles very much. The presence of the third thing with them may actually create a new dynamic also.

[Elrohwen]

I’ll definitely try it! I remember you suggesting it for others but never thought to try it myself. And I already have a ready made stunt double.

[Deleted User]

Great! BB’s Vivian and Jack were a ‘trio’ for a while with a stunt double if I remember correctly. It worked well for them.

[kralspace]

Both my boys llooooovvvveeedddd their stunt doubles before their neuters. And not in a wholesome, rated G way. 😉

[Elrohwen]

Hahahaha. Otto has never met Hannah’s stuffie, so we’ll see what he does! I tried to give him one of his own a while ago, but he wasn’t interested at all. I hope he takes the hint and humps that instead of her!

[Deleted User]

A video would be nice
*poke*

[Elrohwen]

Hahaha. Ok. Though it’s tough to remember to take a video at 5:30am when you’re just trying to get them to knock it off 😛

I’ll try this evening. He did some humping last night around 10:30 and he might repeat.

[Elrohwen]

Petzy, I tried to get videos for you last night, but I mostly failed  They stopped humping before I grabbed the camera and didn’t do anything else interesting! Here’s a cute one I took:

 

p>

I’m laying on the air mattress taking his video, so you can see they’re just inches away from me. My allergist would have a heart attack if I told her I was sleeping with bunnies

I put the bunnies to bed around 10:30 in the small cage and set up an air mattress next to them. Hannah was a little humpy at first – I think it was because she was very angry about being in a small cage again. She humped a couple times but stopped easily. I gave her her stuffy and she groomed it and carried it around. Nobody humped it, but it seemed to help settle her down.

Otto humped her a few times, mostly on the face, between 11 and 1. She was very quiet, as usual, when he humped her on the face, but I made him get off. Overall it was much less frantic than it is in a larger space, so I think the small space is working. There was a little chasing, but since the chasee couldn’t run far it seemed to diffuse the situation.

I set my alarm for 5am to be ready for morning humps, but there weren’t any! Yay! They just slept and were good bunnies all morning. Well, Hannah was annoying – I just started to drift back to sleep and she thumped extremely loud right next to my head. Scared the poop outta me!

[Deleted User]

Thank you for posting the video. I wanted to see them in the small cage and they are doing extremelly well in it. I say, this is where you will cement them finally. I think, a less frantic humping is a huge improvement already. –Cementing vibes for Otto and Hannah now!

[Elrohwen]

 

I felt bad for Hannah – she was like an angry monkey at a zoo for the first hour or two. She would throw herself against the front door trying to get out 🙁 I think she was having flashbacks to living in a small cage before.

Otto just sat there and didn’t care. She eventually settled down though and went to snuggle with him.

Now they’re snuggling together in the maze, which is so cute to see (this picture is actually from earlier in the week).

[Deleted User]

cementing… cementing… cementing! Leave them in there… this is your magic bonding box for these two.

[Elrohwen]

I let them out for the day to get some exercise. Is that bad? Based on what happened when I kept them locked up in the pen a few weeks ago, I was afraid they would get humpy out of frustration. The bonding lady from the rescue said she thought they would be ok out of the cage during the day. They’re so good during the day too – they never hump or have tiffs mid-day and I trust leaving them alone.

[Deleted User]

I think it is fine in this case. Normally you would leave them locked up for cementing but if you already know that it feeds agression you have to adjust to that. Each rabbit, each bond is different.
This is great!

[Elrohwen]

I’m so excited that it seemed to work! I was nervous that the chasee would feel cornered and act out because of that, but it didn’t happen that way. Though I was a little frustrated that they both humped, since Hannah hasn’t humped in days and I hoped she was giving up. We’ll see what happens tonight.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 05/06/2010 08:28 AM
was nervous that the chasee would feel cornered and act out because of that, but it didn’t happen that way.

 

That’s when the extremely small space doesn’t work. — Your rabbits are smart, they know it is too small to fight ‘safely’.

[Elrohwen]

Here’s the other video I took that seemed worth uploading. Pretty boring though. Tonight I’ll try to take some right away before they settle down.

Otto gives me a look like “What are you doing here, crazy lady?”

 

[Deleted User]

So cute! — ‘Yes, crazy lady, what’ya doing???’ He is totally thinking that! Looks like Otto finally got his wish and has his own room alone with his new girlfriend…

[Elrohwen]

Oh, something else strange that I forgot to mention. After their little fight yesterday, I put Otto in the cage to get him away from Hannah for a bit while they cooled down. It didn’t look like he peed, but man, it was stinky in the cage! I know some bunnies get stinky when they’re excited, so I’m assuming that’s what he did? Are they able to spray some of their muskiness? I cleaned up the cage with vinegar and it didn’t stink anymore, but man. Ick!

[Deleted User]

I noticed the same thing when I first housed young Neigey by my trio’s condo at one time; Deirdra would create a stench without passing anything. I noticed hat same stench every time I put together two new rabbits for their first meeting, a strong musky/skunky odor.

[Elrohwen]

Ewww. Hannah smelled a little bit like that when we first brought her home, but not nearly as bad as Otto!

[Deleted User]

I guess they have this stink ability to let an entire warren know when there is a new rabbit on the block.

[Elrohwen]

The bunnies spent night #2 in the small cage. Before going into the cage, around 9:30, there was some mild chasing and attempted humping. After getting them into the cage they totally stopped. They often hump before meal time, so giving them dinner 45 min early seemed to distract them.

Otto did wake me up quite a few times with his humping at midnight, 3am, 5am, etc. Mostly it was head humping because Hannah’s bum was in the corner and her head was down, so he took what he could get. Haha. She’s so good and quiet when he humps her face, but I made him get down. Once he tried really hard to hump the correct way, but he couldn’t reach her but and the arch of her back is too high for him, so he ended up on the face anyway. *sigh* Poor Hannah! I wouldn’t like getting humped in the face.

Otto did go for the stunt double once! It wasn’t a full on hump, but he kind of climbed on top of it. So everything I got him for face humping I gave him the toy, but he didn’t seem interested at that point.

We’re having people over this weekend, so we’re thinking of bringing the small cage into our bedroom so we can supervise without me sleeping in the dining room or expecting our guests to sleep on the couch and keep an eye on them. But at least I feel much more confident that they’re not going to kill each other.

[Elrohwen]

Last night the bunnies were out of their cage until after midnight and there was no humping, so that was good!

We put them in the small cage and brought them into our bedroom since we had guests staying in the living room and I didn’t want them to wake up to a bunny fight. I slept through the night until 6:30 without hearing anything, so if there was humping they kept it quiet. 7:30 is usually their breakfast time, but we were late, so Otto started some humping around then probably out of boredom and hunger, but after I fed them they were fine.

I think the small cage is really helping. Hopefully they can get out of it soon and we can stop supervising at night.

[Elrohwen]

We slept with the bunnies in our room again last night with no issues. Well, other than the whole keeping us awake issue, things were good. I woke up at 6am and fed them, because feeding them seems to calm them down and prevent the humpies.

Tonight we’re going to keep them locked in the small cage, but leave them downstairs by themselves. Hopefully things continue to go well!

[Deleted User]

Sounds very good!

I am posting cementing vibes here.

[Elrohwen]

Thanks, Petzy!

The bunnies spent last night downstairs by themselves, in the small cage. They didn’t wake us up at all and there was no pulled fur in the morning, so I think they’re doing well. I’m guessing there’s still humping, but since I’m not there policing I hope they’re working it out for themselves. I’m not sure how I’ll know they’re ready to have the whole pen back at night, but we’ll probably keep this up for at least a week before considering letting them have more space at night.

[Deleted User]

Yes, leave them for a week! Better safe than sorry. They may be ready now, but you are the ‘police’ and have to adhere to strict cementing policies… I am silly today.

[Elrohwen]

Haha. I am the humping police. Gosh, that doesn’t sound so good, does it?

[Deleted User]

It is true, that’s what you are! Haha!

[Elrohwen]

Quick update. Both bunnies are still humping 🙁 Boo! But the small cage at night seems to be preventing any fighting. I’m still nervous about them though, so we’ve had them sleeping upstairs with us most nights where we can hear them better.

Lately they’ve been humping when it’s mealtime. In the evenings they’ll start around 9:30/10:00 if I haven’t fed them yet. Then in the morning they’ll start at 7:30 if we’re late feeding them (no more 5am humping at least). So it’s kind of predictable and kind of preventable, but we can’t be sure to wake up by 7:30 every day forever.

[Deleted User]

Why do you have to wake up for this? Does the humping cause fights?

[Elrohwen]

It caused a fight last week, which is why they’re in the smaller cage in the first place. I’m afraid that if we leave them downstairs, by the time we wake up and get down there (it’s far enough away that it’s hard to hear much noise) they could be in a serious fight. They were going at it pretty well a week ago and I’m afraid they would have escalated if I hadn’t made it down there in time.

By keeping them upstairs, I can hear them if they start a fight or have a lot of chasing. I don’t wake up if they just do a quick hump or chase.

[Elrohwen]

And the fighting begins again 🙁 They haven’t fought since that one time last week Wednesday and I thought maybe they were past it, so for the first time since that fight we let them sleep alone downstairs. I guess it was too early, because we woke up at 3:45am to them fighting and ran down to break it up. Only a little fur had been pulled out at that point. It seemed like Hannah chasing Otto’s bum nipping, with Otto turning around and trying to bite her.

Judging by their reaction when we separated them, I’m pretty sure what happened is that Hannah tried to hump Otto, started chasing him, and Otto go ticked off and turned on her. When we separated them, Hannah kept trying to get at him to hump while Otto kept trying to lunge at her. He was an angry little guy! Well, angry for him – not Maryann-level anger 😉 She recovered quickly, but he’s still pretty tense, almost half an hour later, and every time she approaches him (she’s calm about it now, no intentions of humping) he freezes.

Do we just keep doing what we’re doing and breaking them up when stuff like this happens? I thought Hannah was finally getting the upper-hand since I’ve seen far more humping attempts out of her in the last 3 or so days (I haven’t seen Otto hump her once), but clearly it was making Otto angry. It reminds me of early bonding when she was a little hump crazy and Otto went through a few days where he nipped at her and lunged to get her to leave him alone. It seems like if I’m not there to call her off, he doesn’t see any way to get rid of her and she gets too riled up to leave him alone.

Besides humping, I’ve noticed her demanding grooming a lot more. About a third of the time Otto ignores the request, a third of the time he hops away, and a third of the time he gives in and gives her a few little licks on the forehead. After 10-15 minutes of chasing him around demanding grooms, Hannah seems to get the idea that humping might get her point across better, and then she’ll chase him trying to hump. Usually in the living room he runs away, but I typically have to make her stop or she’ll just keep going.

They’ve been living together 24/7 for almost 4 weeks now. Please tell me this is going to end! It’s like we have perfectly bonded bunnies during the day, but I never know what’s going to happen at night.

[jerseygirl]

It will end. Well, that or it’d tone down and you’ll get better at allowing it to happen. Like Max&Meadow and Jack&Rucy were, humping was a regular occurance after bonding. Is there an escape place in the cage? Somewhere one can bolt to? This may allow flight rather than fight.

If you’re noticing a certain time of the morning this is occuring, you may be able to identify a trigger. Say it is when they begin to become active and there’s a battle over the hay or litter box. I know (from the times I’ve slept on the floor in living room with the rabbits ;o) ) that Rumball often goes to munch hay in the early hours. It’s good that despite their tussles, it’s not affecting their relationship during the day. They might need to just figure out the final balance between them and then settle into a routine.

[Elrohwen]

It used to happen at 5am specifically, but today it was much earlier at 3:45am – so not as predictable. Though the humping in general definitely happens whenever they’re waking up, it’s just not always easy to predict when that will be and I’m almost always sleeping 😛 It doesn’t seem to be related to resources except that it’s before they get fed, but that might be coincidental since they just happen to get fed a few hours after they would wake up normally. The pattern I’ve seen with Hannah is the demanding grooming – she just gets very intense about wanting to be groomed and wanting to follow Otto around. He does groom her much of the time, but I guess it’s not enough for her and she feels the need to assert her dominance with humping.

At this point, I don’t know if I can even call it humping because Otto will not let her mount him – he either runs away (90% of the time) or turns on her and fights back. Chasing would be a better word because I don’t know the last time I’ve seen anybody actually get a hump in, but I know what they’re trying to do. I’ve actually been really good at letting them go lately, mostly since I’m not sleeping next to the cage and waking up every time they move. Even if they sleep outside our bedroom door, we don’t wake up unless there’s a serious disturbance (they didn’t wake us up at all the past week), so I think there are plenty of humping events that get handled calmly. But both are humping (or were, I haven’t seen Otto do it in a few days) which is the root of our problem.

Currently there’s nowhere to escape in the cage – it’s too small for anything other than the litter box, food, hay, etc, which I did on the recommendation of Petzy and the bonding expert at the rescue. Their original fight was in a bigger space, so I hoped the cage would keep them from doing it again and it seemed to work for a while. I would give them the whole cage+pen setup back (there’s a maze to escape to), but then there’s no way to bring them upstairs with us at night and I don’t know if I can handle sleeping down here with them (I get about 4 hours of sleep when I do that). Though I’ve noticed that in the eveings Otto is able to escape to the maze, but never does. He’ll just run around with her chasing him out in the open instead of hiding in any of the multiple places he had to hide in the living room. So I’m not sure being in the bigger pen would help.

Sorry it’s so long! I’m trying to get my thoughts down and as much behavior as possible, but it’s hard to be concise at 5am.

[jerseygirl]

Oh, it’s 5am?! haha. ok, well you’re doing better than I would at that hour!
I don’t know if an escape would remedy anything. Just a thought. You could try a small shelf perhaps? Though it’s interesting that you say Otto doesn’t always escape even when he has opportunity too. Could they be play fighting…..no, they’re not dogs!  If it is just chasing and some fur pulling (no actual bites) then perhaps this is them sorting things out. So continuing cementing would be beneficial.

[Karla]

I haven’t been through the whole thread…sorry in advance, if this post is just pointless then. Just read JG’s comment, and it made me think of Molly and Jack bonding. They had their tifs. Molly would chase Jack if he got near her cardboard boxes and in general HER things, but she was fine with him if they were sitting together eating hay and so on. Since it was only chasing and fur pulling, I actually let them sort it out themselves.

Reality is that this is the way, it is in nature. And in the wild, rabbits rarely fight for death, but will try their outmost to avoid this situation. So, I let it happen without interfering at all (but only because there was no actual biting going on). It wasn’t easy, and my heart was breaking when poor Jack was being chased, but it worked in the end after a few days. Also, I caged them in my small commercial cage at night, so they were forced to sleep squeezed together without the chance to chase or pull fur.

[Elrohwen]

Quick recap so you don’t need to read the whole thread – The initial bonding was super easy and they moved in together 24/7 after only 2 weeks. There was some humping from both of them, and neither would sit still to be humped, but they seemed to be working it out. Just over a week ago the humping/chasing turned into a fight, which I broke up. They’ve been ok since then, but had another fight this morning.

So I should let them work it out when she’s chasing him and he’s turning on her and biting? Nobody has received injuries yet, but I don’t like that Otto is becoming combative. Chasing is fine, I don’t care if Hannah chases him, but when they start going around and around biting at each other/fur pulling it gets a little intense. At what point should I break it up? I’m afraid if I let it get to the point where they draw blood, there will be no going back.

I have been doing the small cage at night since the last fight a week ago. Glad to know it worked for someone else. I thought it was working for us, until this morning – so clearly it’s big enough for them to chase and fight if they really want to. I have a slightly smaller cage I can try – this one is 4’x2′ and I think the other is more like 3.5’x1.5′. Not sure if that will make a difference. And Jers, there is a shelf for this cage that I removed – I can try putting it back. But yeah, not sure if Otto will use it. It might be worth a shot.

I guess it’s just disheartening since they did so well for almost 3 weeks, then had a fight. I thought we were over it by now at almost a month living together, but they had a second fight. Things seem to be getting gradually worse rather than better. I’ve also been letting them work everything out on their own in the past 2 weeks other than these two fights, which I broke up. Otherwise I let them chase and hump if they want but it doesn’t seem to be helping.

Oh, and I just caught Otto attempting to hump Hannah. He doesn’t seem to chase her anymore – just makes one attempt and gives up. Before he was the chaser and there weren’t any fights. It seems that now she’s chasing and he’s not happy about it.

[jerseygirl]

Have you tried a car ride with them? I just recalled this is sometimes used when a bonded pair has had a tiff.

[Karla]

Thanks for the recap! Well, are you sure that one of them is not ill or in pain? First of all, some bunnies react to pain or feeling unwell (like the rest of us) by being moody and short-tempered. So Hannah could be in pain. It could be the other way round as well though. Molly would always chase Jack and bite him, when he was being ill.

Are both of them acting normal, eating fine, not changing litter habits et,c?

I wish I could help you out. I had missed the whole point of them having been bonded. Have you thought of splitting them up for a month or so, and then re-introduce them?

[Elrohwen]

Jers, they’ve gone on some car rides – problem is that I can only really do a car ride with them during the day, but they’re totally fine in the middle of the day, so it doesn’t seem to help. They still do their humping thing in the wee hours. Though maybe it did help, since I last took them on a car ride on Wednesday, after their first fight, and then they didn’t have a fight for over a week (though the humping didn’t stop). Not sure if that was a coincidence or not.

Karla, Hannah had some teeth problems a few weeks back and she’s set to go in next week and have them rechecked. However, they’ve both been eating totally normally, so I’ll be surprised if the spurs have returned. Otherwise, everything else is the same. I noticed a few sneezes out of her this morning, but I haven’t seen any discharge, so I’ll keep an eye on it. When your bunnies were sick, was the aggression most of the day? Or did it manifest in random instances like this? What gets me is that it’s so random – they’ll be fine for over a week, then fight. And even when they do fight, they’re still fine 99% of the time, so I don’t get it. Once the fight has stopped and Hannah stops being humpy, they’re totally good together. They also never had a single fight during their bonding time, so I don’t think they’re predisposed to be aggressive to each other at all. I think Otto just had enough and didn’t know how else to tell her, and she didn’t seem to take the hint.

From what I’m seeing, it looks like Hannah is being a fairly normal bunny, though maybe a bit more intent on humping and chasing than she should be. Otto seems to be the one getting super ticked off and starting a fight, which also seems normal. So I dunno. Somebody needs to give in. Either Hannah needs to knock it off when Otto gives her a warning, or Otto needs to just sit still and be humped. I wish I could tell them this! They don’t seem particularly good at communicating with each other.

Separating them really wasn’t on my radar. Do you think it would help? If anything I would separate them to cages at night and let them be together during the day since they’re so awesome together most of the time. They spend their whole day snuggling, hanging out, etc. I have thought of separating just at night so I can sleep peacefully without worrying about them, but I didn’t think it would be a good idea because I thought it would set us back. When they are within hearing range, we sometimes wake up multiple times just because they’re being a bit active, or maybe humping a bit. We never had to intervene when they were upstairs with us, but we still woke up quite a few times.

[Elrohwen]

Petzy, where are you? I need you to read the novel I wrote above and give me some suggestions 😛 Thanks!

[Karla]

Posted By Elrohwen on 05/14/2010 06:42 AM
Karla, Hannah had some teeth problems a few weeks back and she’s set to go in next week and have them rechecked. However, they’ve both been eating totally normally, so I’ll be surprised if the spurs have returned. Otherwise, everything else is the same. I noticed a few sneezes out of her this morning, but I haven’t seen any discharge, so I’ll keep an eye on it. When your bunnies were sick, was the aggression most of the day? Or did it manifest in random instances like this?

Exactly like in your case. Molly and Jack’s tiffs were random and out of the blue. They could cuddle all morning and then around lunch, Molly would suddenly go for him, and then after a while they were back to normal. It definitely wasn’t constant.

And even small spur problems made her go for him. So it could be a reason. I kind of hope in your case, that this is it, so it will be solved.

Separating them really wasn’t on my radar. Do you think it would help? If anything I would separate them to cages at night and let them be together during the day since they’re so awesome together most of the time. They spend their whole day snuggling, hanging out, etc. I have thought of separating just at night so I can sleep peacefully without worrying about them, but I didn’t think it would be a good idea because I thought it would set us back. When they are within hearing range, we sometimes wake up multiple times just because they’re being a bit active, or maybe humping a bit. We never had to intervene when they were upstairs with us, but we still woke up quite a few times.

The reason I suggested this was because I was thinking it was more than morning tiffs and it was stressing them to have these tiffs and that they needed a break. If it is random instances, I say wait and see what the vet says. If (s)he finds absolutely nothing, then try to separate them in the morning for a few days perhaps and see if the problem diseappear once they are back together in the mornings. It is worth a shot, although I am not sure if will work, but I guess you are willing to try everything at this point.

[Elrohwen]

That gives me hope for our vet visit. Though if Hannah has spurs again, I worry that means she will have them every month 🙁 She’s made it 3 years without them and I’d be pretty sad (and poor!) if she had to go back every 4-6 weeks. Plus, she didn’t eat for 3 days after she had them done last time (clearly she’s sensitive to pain) and that’s a pain in the butt to deal with. We’ll see what the vet says. I kind of hope that’s the reason so I know what’s going on, but then I hope it isn’t!

Yeah, I might just have to try separating them from 3am until we wake up every day since that’s the only time anything happens. Or just keeping them apart overnight in general.

[Elrohwen]

I just got a vet appointment for Monday at 11am. I’m going away next weekend (DH is staying home) so I figured if she needs to be trimmed again I’d better be around to force feed her for a few days.

[Karla]

That is quite often to have teeth trimmed. I had to change the bunny diet completely in order to only feed greens high in silicate in order to avoid these trims. I know that Sarita also has/or had a bunny that gets/got monthly trims.

Let’s see what the vet says – I did felt guilty saying I was hoping it might be the issue, because it really isn’t nice to hope something like that on her. If it is the case, could you get metacam for her, so it won’t be so hard on her afterwards?

[Elrohwen]

The vet said she thought she would be able to see them coming back by 4-6 weeks if they were going to come back. She didn’t really have any symptoms before, and the vet said they were mild but irritating her tongue, which is why she trimmed them. I did get a few days of metacam, but it didn’t seem to help much. I was worried about her not eating, but her previous owner told me that she didn’t eat for days after her spay either, so it seems like she’s fussy about pain in general.

I don’t know how much hay she was getting at her last home, or what quantity of veggies, so I just hoped that her diet here would prevent them from coming back. She eats quite a bit of hay now, so we’ll see. She’s been eating more and faster than before, but that could also be because she has to share with Otto – he used to nibble throughout the day but also eats much faster.

[Karla]

Will Otto come along as well and be checked? Just in case he is the one feeling unwell.

[Elrohwen]

Yep, he’ll be there for a nail trim and the car trip and maybe I can ask the vet to sneak a peek at him too (hopefully they don’t charge an extra $90 for it).

[Karla]

That would be kind of sneeky, if they did.

Although metacam really shouldn’t be used generously due to risk of renal problems, I was thinking that it was worth a shot to give them metacam one morning and see if they still have their tiffs or not. Just in case, the vet doesn’t find any dental problems. But let’s wait and see. I know for some bunnies who have had dental issues, it takes a while before the teeth are re-adjusted and back to normal, so this could be a case of that.

[Elrohwen]

Hopefully the vet can give me some ideas. Though I hope it’s not her teeth! Last time I walked out with a bill for $250 between the checkup, fecal test, and teeth trimming 🙁

[Deleted User]

Have they been in the small cage this whole time at night?

[Elrohwen]

Yep, since Wednesday night last week. No fights or even tussles until this morning.

I’m wondering if I should just keep doing what I’m doing, or change things up somehow by adding the shelf back in or changing cages or something.

[Deleted User]

The turning against one another is a setback. Cementing requires one bunny to reliably back down or you’ll end up with real fights and having to start stress sessions again. You didn’t exactly see the encounter happen, did you? The fur plucking is nothing to be concered with. I say, sleep by their cage, or move the cage into your bedroom. Do your very best in keeping them together but if you see a real latching on, you must break them up. Right now, you just need to be on alert, this may not escalate into anything bigger.
I also agree that a health issue may be making Hannah extra humpy.
What about hump double?

[Elrohwen]

I saw it as I was separating them (same with the tussle that happened last Wednesady) – I think I got there within seconds of them starting. They were going around in circles trying to nip at each other. It looked like Hannah was mostly trying to hump/nip Otto’s bum, while Otto was trying to nip her on the shoulder/side to make her stop and around and around they went. Otto was ticked off for about 5 minutes after I pulled them apart, but then they settled down and snuggled. Hannah acted like nothing had happened.

The hump double is in the cage and I’ve tried using it, but nobody humps it. Though after the scuffle she grabbed it and carried it around and groomed it – like if Otto wouldn’t let her have her way at least her stuffie would. Lol.

I watched Otto hump her twice in the morning and he just climbed on while she sat there for a sec, then got off. No chasing. So it looks like he’s giving up his humping, but Hannah is stepping hers up and becoming more frantic about it.

I guess I’ll continue doing what we’re doing and definitely bring them upstairs with us every night (last night was the first night we left them downstairs). Nobody has latched on or done more than pull fur during the fights, but I’m afraid they could escalate easily since Hannah keeps trying to hump and Otto keeps trying to tell her not to hump.

It’s like they’re 90% bonded, and I trust them totally during the day and during mealtimes, but they are not trustworthy at night.

[Deleted User]

It is possible that Hannah’s humping has become more frantic because he won’t let her so she is more aggressive about it if that makes sense.

[Elrohwen]

Definitely possible! And the way she starts it by demanding grooms seems like she wants attention from her bunny boy-toy and if he doesn’t give her enough attention, she moves to humping. And then he doesn’t let her hump, so she chases him. Then he tries to nip her and she doesn’t get the point and keeps chasing him. I feel like they’re not able to speak the same bunny language or something. Lol Otto does know to groom her when she puts her head down, but he doesn’t do it every time and only gives about 3-4 licks when he does. She doesn’t seem satisfied by that.

[Deleted User]

They need to sort it out on their own. Butt nips are permissible anyways.

[Elrohwen]

I do let her chase and try to hump. Should I still break it up when they start the circling/fighting behavior? Otherwise I’ve left them totally alone for a couple weeks without intervening (which is a big step for me!) At night they’ve been allowed to do whatever they wanted and we only stopped them this time and last Wednesday.

eta: It’s mostly the Otto-going-for-the-jugular nips that concern me. I’m just not sure how far he’ll go with it. Especially since he seems so testy afterwards, I’m afraid he might go for skin if he can’t get his point across. I don’t think Hannah’s being aggressive at all – just obnoxious.

[Deleted User]

Otto is so much like Mops. Mops will break skin if he is afraid enough. So I say Otto could get to that point too. When the circling starts it is your cue to use a stressor on them. Have a spray bottle by their cage and squirt the aggressor square on the forehead with a single water squirt, not mist, but steady stream of water.

[Elrohwen]

I did the spray bottle this morning while DH physically separated them (when we saw water wasn’t enough). Spraying doesn’t seem to phase Otto though, so I think I need to come up with an noisemaker stressor or something to do at the same time. Hannah hates the water, so getting her in the face knocks her out of her humping thing (she was still trying to hump after we separated them).

Any other good stressors? I’m thinking dried beans in a can or jar.

[Deleted User]

I liked using a blow drier through cage bars.

[Elrohwen]

Ooo, good idea.

[Elrohwen]

Otto seems to like the water. I tried using it on him when he was digging at carpet one day and I think I soaked him before I just got up and pushed him away. Haha. It’s like he didn’t even notice.

Hannah will stop whatever she’s doing as soon as she even sees the squirt bottle though.

[jerseygirl]

Were they downstairs when the fight broke out last Wednesday also?

[Elrohwen]

Yep, downstairs both times. I think we keep them from being too obnoxious just by being near them. Plus, if they’re in the bedroom (or even the hallway) we check on them whenever they make too much noise. We don’t intervene, but usually just us looking at them will make both bunnies stop whatever they’re doing and look back at us. Lol. So we might prevent fights that way.

Last night we put them in a smaller cage – maybe 3.5″ x 1.5″. The second we put them in Hannah started humping and they kind of started fighting, but I made them stop and they were fine the rest of the night. This is Hannah’s old cage from her last home, so I think she was really stressed out by being in it again. I almost gave up on that cage for the night, but we left them in there and they ended up being fine.

I’m a little worried about them today. We’re going into NYC and won’t be back til a bit later. They’ve never fought in the evenings, but I have seen some humping. We’re going to try to be home by 10:30 (their normal dinner time) but the train is 90min long so we’d have to leave pretty early. We’ll see what happens. I think we’ll just leave them out in the pen like they would normally be and maybe give them some extra veggies right before we leave at 10:30am to they’re not starving by evening.

[jerseygirl]

My thinking was perhaps their routine is not in synch yet. That the light or some other disturbance is getting Hannah into that active phase early where as Otto (accustomed to the house and downstairs) is still sleeping?

[Elrohwen]

It could be. I also think Hannah is just a far more active bun than Otto is. Even during his “active times” he’s pretty laid back.

Last night I left them out in their pen until I got home around 11:30. There were a couple tufts of Otto hair, I’m assuming they were from Hannah humping, but no Hannah hair, so I don’t think there was any fighting. So that’s good! I moved them to the small cage for the night and they were good in there. The only issue is that Hannah starts digging wildly at the cage floor around 6am until we take them out and feed them. Silly Hannah. There are dig marks in the cage, so I assume she’s been doing that for years.

I’ve noticed a lot more chasing and humping from Hannah when they get fed now. They used to approach food together, but now Hannah will briefly chase Otto away so that she can start eating first (then she lets him join). I’m hoping this dominance behavior might be a sign that they’re working things out. It’s definitely a sign that Hannah is feeling more in charge, any way.

[Deleted User]

Female rabbits often keep up this behavior permanently. They are more dominant than males, in my estimation, and so they can be bullies over food, more so than males. My Deirdra has always chased the males away at feeding time, until she gets the biggest chunk, then she lets them be.

[mrmac]

Delilah is the same way. She will not let Dex near a treat or pellets before she has eaten one. She will growl and chase him away, tail out and all. She gets this way with Davey sometimes too if he is acting too ‘hungry’ (although Davey will still let her know who the ‘real’ boss is when he has had enough)

[Elrohwen]

Hannah is definitely being a normal female – I don’t mind her chasing him away from food. I just wish he wouldn’t fight back when she tries to hump him *sigh* Though they’ve been doing really well in the even smaller cage at night (though getting Otto in there is a pain).

At least if food is involved, she just chases him or humps him for a second, then pays attention to the food. When there’s no food around, she humps and chases and won’t give it up and that’s when Otto gets mad. He doesn’t react if she chases him away from food – he just gets out of her way.

Hannah also humps him if I’m trying to give them both papaya and she wants it all for herself. I’ve started calling Otto over to me (by patting the floor very quietly) while her back is turned. Lol. It’s making him more attentive to me (which has been lacking lately) and she doesn’t have a clue! She’s a little chunky anyway

[mrmac]

I know the whispering to the other bun! “Come here really quick and be quiet!” It used to work for me then Davey and Delilah suddenly aquired super hearing! I don’t get away with it very often anymore… Is this with their veggies? Maybe offering a piece to Otto first by hand, then put it down and let Hannah come and start eating, then once Otto is finished with his piece he can come join her. If I give Dex veggies first and Delilah hears that, she will run in and Dexter will panic and bolt. I usually give him a piece first, it seems to make the greetings over the food less intense. I don’t know if that helps at all?! Just trying to think of a different way around the eating…

[Elrohwen]

Oo, good idea with the veggies! I’ll try giving Otto a piece first. I might also try giving him the pellet bowl and Hannah the veggies. She goes for the parsley before anything and Otto goes for the pellets, so if I separate them a foot or two Hannah might not think Otto is horning in on her veggies right away. Once she’s had first crack at the food she’s fine with him eating next to her.

They’re actually super cute when eating pellets. For a long time Otto has been doing this thing where he grabs the bowl in his teeth and pulls it towards him. He does this every single time he eats – he’ll approach a few inches from the bowl, then pull it the rest of the way. It took Hannah about 2 weeks to learn the trick, so they’ll sit facing each other and each will pull the bowl, take a bite, then the other one will pull the bowl away and take a bite. Lol. It’s so funny because they’re not aggressive about it – they just have a funny way of sharing.

I’ve been trying to give Otto lots of papaya and spend more time with him because we’re losing some of our bond. It took 8 months to get him to like pets and now he’s back to no petting 🙁 So I hope if I can spend some one on one time with him he’ll come around. He let me pet him a little the other night, so I think it’s working. I try to pick times when he’s in the living room and Hannah’s off exploring the dining room so she doesn’t notice. Otherwise she’s a pushy little thing and tries to get all the pets and treats for herself 😛

[jerseygirl]

so they’ll sit facing each other and each will pull the bowl, take a bite, then the other one will pull the bowl away and take a bite. Lol. It’s so funny because they’re not aggressive about it – they just have a funny way of sharing.

Ahaha! Could we see a small video of that? Pleeease?

[mrmac]

Yes, a video of that! That sounds so cute!

If you give Hannah the veggies first then she can pick out what exactly what she wants, and Otto can enjoy the pellets too. With Dex and Delilah too, once they are both there it is ok but it is getting them to that spot is the key! Otto will come around with the pets, all of mine did this during the beginning of their bond.

[Elrohwen]

I should’ve mentioned that we have two veggie dishes too – both have lettuce, but only one has parsley. So I could also try giving the lettuce-only dish to Otto while Hannah downs the parsley. She doesn’t chase him away for long though.

I’ll try to get a video of them sharing pellets tomorrow. It was cute when just Otto did it, but it’s hilarious when they go back and forth.

[lashkay]

A video of that is something to look forward to…I’m happy that your buns give you so much enjoyment!

[Elrohwen]

Just got home from the vet and Hannah has healthy teefies! Yay! *does happy dance* They also only charged me $60 for both nail trims and the teeth recheck. Normally it’s $90 for a vet check and $15 for nail trims, so $60 was awesome. I guess it counted as a “recheck” so it was half price. The vet said Hannah looks awesome – perfect weight, perfect teeth.

It’s getting harder to get them into the little cage at night – they are not happy about it! We’ve been leaving it upstairs, so we have to get them in carriers to take them up to the cage, which they don’t like. Before we were luring them into the cage with food, then carrying the cage upstairs with them in it, but that requires two people and is a pain.

I wasn’t successful in getting a pellet eating video. I told DH not to give them pellets this morning, so I could do it. I was so exhausted that I slept in late, so by the time I got down they had eaten their veggies and fallen asleep. I tried to get them interested in pellets, but it was a no go. Lol. I’ll try again tomorrow and get up at their normal feeding time.

[Deleted User]

great! I am glad you didn’t get charged an arm and a leg at the vet’s and that she is well!

[Elrohwen]

I’ve been finding chunks of Otto hair in the pen daily, so I think Hannah is increasing her humping during the few hours they’re left alone (usually 7-8:30am). But, no Hannah fur, so Otto must not be fighting back.

I haven’t seen or heard any humping overnight in the small cage, so it’s tough to gauge where they’re at. I think we’ll do the cage in our room for at least 2 full weeks before we let them back downstairs.

[jerseygirl]

I take it they are now intergrated into living as a bonded pair? Could we please have a picture of the bonded Hannah and Otto?

[Elrohwen]

 Hey Jers! I did change the subject line to bonded, but they’re not 100% there yet. Hannah is still having chasing episodes where she to tries to nip Otto on the bum (she usually gets a mouthful of fur). She’ll chase him into the cage, around the cage, out of the cage, through the willow tent, back into the cage, etc until I stop her. She’s gets really into it, and Otto really doesn’t like it. He hasn’t started a fight over it in a few weeks though, but I think that’s because we’ve been careful about them. If I just let her go, she won’t stop until Otto turns on her, so I’m not sure what to do. It helps when they have free roam and Otto can get away, but in their 8’x4′ cage there’s nowhere for him to run to except his maze.

To keep her from doing this at 5am and starting a fight, they sleep in Hannah’s old 3.5’x1.5′ cage every night. It’s kind of a pain, and I feel bad that they have no space, but I see her chase him in the mornings and evenings sometimes so I know she still has the urge to do it. The plan is to move them into the larger petstore cage at some point, then let them have the whole big cage over night.

I hope she knocks it off! Or at least stops getting so into it. If she would just chase him for a few feet and let him get away it would be so much better, but she gets so fixated on it.

Other than that, they’re a great pair!

As requested, here are some pictures of the (mostly) happy couple.

[Beka27]

Look at those pics. Otto is so happy.

Wasn’t it worth it, Elrohwen? What did we tell you? ;o)

[Elrohwen]

Yes, it was worth it! They’re so cute together. You guys were right 😀

It makes me a little sad that Otto doesn’t like pets anymore (unless he’s snuggling with Hannah, then he’s fine with us petting him), but we’re working on it and I think he’s coming around again. And he does still like to hang out with us in the living room, even without Hannah.

And Hannah’s a fun little girl. She keeps us on our toes, but it’s so fun to watch her run around. She also loves to be petted, so I can get my bunny snuggle urges out on her while we work on Otto.

[Deleted User]

Congrats. I still think the hardest part for you was the sometimes-boring supervision! LOL.

[Elrohwen]

Yes! Well, not so much the boring-ness, but not knowing when to intervene. I definitely stuck my nose in too much when I should’ve left them alone, but I was so afraid of a brawl starting.

But just spending the time every day was hard. It’s like exercising – I don’t like to do that either. Haha. Just one of those things you have to force yourself to do every day until you see results.

[Beka27]

It is hard b/c you don’t want either to get injured… but after awhile you have to just back off and say, “you guys figure it out already!”

[Monkeybun]

I think that’s the problem me and hubby are having too. We get all worried about our itty bitty girl getting hurt, when she is always fine lol.

<3 Hannah and Otto, cutes! <3

[Elrohwen]

And it’s funny that the one who might get hurt is Hannah, not Otto! Haha. She chases him and is obnoxious, but she’s never aggressive. But Otto gets ticked off sometimes and turns on her, so I’m afraid he’s going to start a brawl in self-defense.

So I know that Hannah wouldn’t hurt him, but I’m always stepping in to stop her chasing to keep the peace. I just don’t want to see Otto get too upset! He’s my baby.

[jerseygirl]

Aww! Thank you for the piccies!

Your comments on Hannahs chasing make me wonder if it’s a form of play for her? Too bad for Otto! Do you think making the cage darker or the living room where the pen is darker overnight would help any?
My only other thought is to provide Otto a sort of escape like a 1 bun only sitting shelf ini the pen. Maybe all enclosed with a ramp since he’s not a jumper. Or a small hidey box that only he can fit in?

On the human to bun bond, you may notice in time they both individually seek you out.

[Elrohwen]

I think having the maze helps because it’s a tight space – the tent obviously isn’t a good enough hiding spot since she’ll chase him right through! Haha. I’ll try finding a little hidey box that’s only one-bun sized and see if it helps. Anything that will break her chase mindset is good because once she stops, she’s ok. She justs gets so intent on it!

And she might be playing! I didn’t think of that, but it’s possible. She’s certainly not aggressive about it. And when she chases him out of dominance she only chases him far enough away so that she can have the treat or food or whatever it is. When she fixates on chasing him, there’s no dominance reason that I can see – she seems to do it for fun. Poor Otto for sure!

I love watching them groom too. Otto will groom her, but he’s not very thorough – he’ll just take 5-10 licks on her head. But when she grooms him, she’s almost aggressive about it and goes for his eyes. We always tease her and say “Don’t eat his eyeballs, Hannah!” Haha. He doesn’t mind too much, but she never seems to realize that gentle grooming would be appreciated.

Otto seeks us out a bit now, but he still doesn’t really like to be touched. But he’ll spend all evening out in the living room with us even if Hannah isn’t there, so I think he’s starting to like us more. And I’ve been able to pet him for 20 seconds where before he’d run away immediately. It’s so cute though when they snuggle together and both get pets – they just mush together into a bunny mass and enjoy their pets.

eta: I don’t think I could make their area any darker. She tends to do it early in the morning, as the sun is coming up (it rises before 5:30 here in the summer). Our house is like a fishbowl, so there are many large windows we’d have to cover to make it darker (and it would still get lighter when the sun came up)

[Elrohwen]

 Here are some more pics, just for you, Jers 

I love how Otto is resting his chin on the table in this one.

 

You can see how she has no concern for his personal space, and just squishes into him to groom her leg.  He doesn’t mind!

 

Snuggles!

 

Flops inside the bun-cave.

[jerseygirl]

These are great! I can see Otto resting his head and Hannah her butt on the table. heehee!
I also see similar grooming between Jersey and Rumball. He’s always works on the eyes / she loves it. Her grooms are pretty token so he makes do by squashing up against her why she grooms herself so he kinda gets groomed then. Often this is when I approach and pet him. Enjoy your pair, watching them as a bonded pair never gets boring. (Unlike watching them while bonding, which very definately does!)

[Elrohwen]

Haha, true that! Bonding is so boring, but once they’re together, it’s totally entertaining.

[Lintini]

Eeee! They are such a cute couple!!!

[Elrohwen]

Thanks, Lintini!

[Beka27]

Have you tried an “L”-shaped pen divider like Markus did while he was bonding Maryann and Dono? That might break the chase cycle.

[Elrohwen]

I’ll have to look at his thread. Though I doubt anything but a hidey box would do it, since she’ll chase him into the cage, out of the cage, through the dining room, etc. She’s really persistent!

[Beka27]

If you just let them chase… what happens? Do they stop eventually? Do they fight? Hump? It may just be playing.

[Elrohwen]

Sometimes she stops on her own, especially if we’re around (even if we don’t try to stop it) but a few times, a couple weeks ago, Otto turned on her and was trying to bite her to make her knock it off. So they ended up in a death spiral with her chasing his bum, and him trying to bite her on the shoulder. At that point I had to physically separate them because clapping and water squirting wasn’t enough. He was trying to tell her to stop, but she just didn’t get it.

I usually let it go for a little while, and give her a chance to stop. Often she does, but I can tell when Otto is getting really frustrated and it’s getting frantic and I’ll stop it then. I don’t mind it when we’re here, but the times they got in a fight it was at 3-5am, so that’s why they sleep in a little cage so she can’t chase.

eta: She might be playing, but I don’t think Otto understands the game. lol. She might be trying to hump, but he never stops long enough for her to do it. Sometimes she ends up pulling out big tufts of fur from his bum if he’s too slow.

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